Finals record of 90's Bulls if they replaced MJ & triangle with Bron and Bron-ball??

[3ba11]

We could get to the bottom of this if we had some historical data on the kind of Finals records that Bron-ball yields and with different kinds of lineups.

Do we have any years of this or any lineups?.. a few years would be great. a couple decades would be an amazing sample.. what kind of evidence of Finals record do we have for Lebron? How big is the sample?.. And can his stiff-arm win with lane-cloggers and historic bricklayers like Pippen (non-closers)?

[RRR3]

8-0 because LeBron wouldn’t quit to play baseball.

[3ba11]

8-0 because LeBron wouldn’t quit to play baseball.


pippen fit GREAT with mj, so would this be the same with Lebron, aka does Lebron have examples of great fits with players like Pippen?

How was the fit with Hughes? How did Hughes play alongside Lebron compared to before?.. Was there a great fit with other guys like Ingram, Wade, or Westbrook?.. Where's the evidence that he has great fits with guys like Pippen and developed anyone to meaningful production?

Seems like all the evidence shows he would fits poorly with spotty-shooting ball-handlers and lane-cloggers like Pippen, so the team would underperform expectation and need more help like his teams do now

[3ba11]

8-0 because LeBron wouldn’t quit to play baseball.


Also, Lebron would need 41 to 3-peat but he only averaged 28 in 2014, which lost by a record 13 ppg - he literally needed 41 in 2014 but came up 13 ppg short (the margin of loss)..

Furthermore, he lacks the expert jumpshooting skill required to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals).

[sdot_thadon]

Actually Lebron would shoot leas, and Pippen and Grant would average more ppg. Could you imagine the weapon Horace would be with Lebron in the PnR. 1st go round with the Cavs he made some far Inferior bigs look serviceable. Scottie would also get more touches as a finisher. And Lebron would have the luxury of having his man on an island or see a clear double. Easier scoring opportunities one on one as well Easy decision making for him as well. They win as much as the Bulls did if not more because he doesn't retire for 2 seasons in the middle of their run.... And if you somehow think the 90s would be too physical? He'd out weigh most Pfs and Centers easily from that era, plus all his dunks would be in super slow- mo lol. He'd be a huge deal.

[JohnMax]

A 6 times finals loser replacing a 6 times finals winner

[Phoenix]

Better question, 3balls life if MJ and Lebron never existed?

Anyways, another transparent attempt to ensnare people into making the same arguing points for 10 pages. Let's see who bites today.

[Axe]

1-9

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Also, Lebron would need 41 to 3-peat but he only averaged 28 in 2014, which lost by a record 13 ppg - he literally needed 41 in 2014 but came up 13 ppg short (the margin of loss)..

Furthermore, he lacks the expert jumpshooting skill required to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals).


Ah, this debunked argument again.

These were different offensive climates. LeBron averaged 28 on 68% TS. Jordan averaged 41 on 56% TS…the latter mark is lower than the Heat’s team average in the ‘14 finals (.571).

This is despite the fact that the ‘93 Suns drtg was actually higher than the ‘14 Spurs: 106.7-102.4.

Jordan’s individual TS% is also much lower than the Spurs’ team average of 63.5%.

So you can’t just superimpose raw numbers like this. If Jordan averages 41 on 2014 with identical %’s (and all else remaining equal, with scaling accounted for and his teammates shots being redistributed)…the Heat lose. Badly.

Now, is everything likely to remain equal? No, of course not. There are many deciles of potential outcomes, butterfly effects and interdependencies introduced by subbing ‘93 Jordan in for ‘14 LeBron…but that only affirms how insane it is to plug in one stat-line from a different era, against a different team, in a different offensive environment into another series and pass it off as definitive.

But please, continue!

[Full Court]

Bulls never even make it to the finals in the 90s playing Bron ball.

On the other hand, the 90s Jazz wins two rings. :lol

[3ba11]

.
List of players who outscored Michael Jordan or LeBron James in a playoff series:


Michael Jordan:

* 1985 1st Round, Terry Cummings (Bucks, Opponent) (29.5PPG) (MJ averaged 29.3PPG) (Bulls lost 1-3)


LeBron James:

* 2007 1st Round, Antawn Jamison (Wizards, Opponent) (32.0PPG) (Bron averaged 27.8PPG) (Cavs won 4-0)

* 2007 NBA Finals, Tony Parker (Spurs, Opponent) (24.5PPG) (Bron averaged 22.0PPG) (Cavs lost 0-4)

* 2011 2nd Round, Dwyane Wade (Heat, Teammate) (30.2PPG) (Bron averaged 28.0PPG) (Heat won 4-1)

* 2011 NBA Finals, Dwyane Wade (Heat, Teammate) (26.5PPG) (Bron averaged 17.8PPG) (Heat lost 2-4)

* 2011 NBA Finals, Dirk Nowitzki (Mavs, Opponent) (26.0PPG) (Bron averaged 17.8PPG) (Heat lost 2-4)

* 2011 NBA Finals, Chris Bosh (Heat, Teammate) (18.5PPG) (Bron averaged 17.8PPG) (Heat lost 2-4)

* 2011 NBA Finals, Jason Terry (Mavs, Opponent) (18.0PPG) (Bron averaged 17.8PPG) (Heat lost 2-4)

* 2012 NBA Finals, Kevin Durant (Thunder, Opponent) (30.6PPG) (Bron averaged 28.6PPG) (Heat won 4-1)

* 2014 ECF, Paul George (Pacers, Opponent) (24.0PPG) (Bron averaged 22.8PPG) (Heat won 4-2)

* 2016 1st Round, Kyrie Irving (Cavs, Teammate) (27.5PPG) (Bron averaged 22.8PPG) (Cavs won 4-0)

* 2017 NBA Finals, Kevin Durant (Warriors, Opponent) (35.2PPG) (Bron averaged 33.6PPG) (Cavs lost 1-4)

* 2020 1st Round, Anthony Davis (Lakers, Teammate) (29.8PPG) (Bron averaged 27.4PPG) (Lakers won 4-1)

* 2020 2nd Round, James Harden (Rockets, Opponent) (29.4PPG) (Bron averaged 25.8PPG) (Lakers won 4-1)

* 2020 WCF, Anthony Davis (Lakers, Teammate) (31.2PPG) (Bron averaged 27.0PPG) (Lakers won 4-1)

* 2021 1st Round, Devin Booker (Suns, Opponent) (29.7PPG) (Bron averaged 23.3PPG) (Lakers lost 2-4)


TLDR: MJ never had a teammate outscore him in a playoff series. 1x in his career was he outscored by an opponent.

LeBron on 6 occasions has had teammates outscore him in a playoff series. 9x in his career was he outscored by an opponent.






Actually Lebron would shoot leas, and Pippen and Grant would average more ppg.





^^^ that kind of crap shown above where Lebron is getting outscored by teammates and opponents all the time wouldn't fly for the 90's Bulls.. A goat scoring load was required - this can be demonstrated by the stats:

Pippen averaged 15.7 on 34% in the 96' Finals or 46% true shooting in the 93' Finals, so he couldn't handle a bigger load - his worst-ever efficiency on numerous playoff runs showed that he couldn't handle a bigger load, while his 22 ppg with the green light in 1994 showed that he played near capacity alongside MJ.. Ditto Grant..

Since teammates play to capacity alongside expert jumpshooters like Curry, Kobe or MJ, Lebron would need to undertake the same unprecedented scoring load that MJ did to win.. This includes scoring champion production while winning titles, and also defeating max defensive attention in every series (carry scoring load on championship level), which Lebron never did.. Lebron would also need to have great chemistry with a spotty-shooting ball-dominator like Pippen, which he never did with Westbrook, Wade, Ingram, or Hughes.. Unfortunately, there's literally massive sample sizes of Lebron NOT doing the things required to win on the 90's Bulls, aka not scoring enough or not fitting with many teammates and cratering them instead

[Axe]

Ah, this debunked argument again.

These were different offensive climates. LeBron averaged 28 on 68% TS. Jordan averaged 41 on 56% TS…the latter mark is lower than the Heat’s team average in the ‘14 finals (.571).

This is despite the fact that the ‘93 Suns drtg was actually higher than the ‘14 Spurs: 106.7-102.4.

Jordan’s individual TS% is also much lower than the Spurs’ team average of 63.5%.

So you can’t just superimpose raw numbers like this. If Jordan averages 41 on 2014 with identical %’s (and all else remaining equal, with scaling accounted for and his teammates shots being redistributed)…the Heat lose. Badly.

Now, is everything likely to remain equal? No, of course not. There are many deciles of potential outcomes, butterfly effects and interdependencies introduced by subbing ‘93 Jordan in for ‘14 LeBron…but that only affirms how insane it is to plug in one stat-line from a different era, against a different team, in a different offensive environment into another series and pass it off as definitive.

But please, continue!
He's avoiding your posts like plague. Lmao.

[3ba11]

He's avoiding your posts like plague. Lmao.


His arguments are dumb and not worth responding to - he doesn't counter the point being made and simply types anything and hoping for a response... If I type 2+2=4, he will refute it with walls of text and useless information and you'll praise him for it.. He's done and exposed as a waste of time

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Ah, this debunked argument again.

These were different offensive climates. LeBron averaged 28 on 68% TS. Jordan averaged 41 on 56% TS…the latter mark is lower than the Heat’s team average in the ‘14 finals (.571).

This is despite the fact that the ‘93 Suns drtg was actually higher than the ‘14 Spurs: 106.7-102.4.

Jordan’s individual TS% is also much lower than the Spurs’ team average of 63.5%.

So you can’t just superimpose raw numbers like this. If Jordan averages 41 on 2014 with identical %’s (and all else remaining equal, with scaling accounted for and his teammates shots being redistributed)…the Heat lose. Badly.

Now, is everything likely to remain equal? No, of course not. There are many deciles of potential outcomes, butterfly effects and interdependencies introduced by subbing ‘93 Jordan in for ‘14 LeBron…but that only affirms how insane it is to plug in one stat-line from a different era, against a different team, in a different offensive environment into another series and pass it off as definitive.

But please, continue!

^my post was foolproof, and won’t be touched.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

His arguments are dumb and not worth responding to -

Well I definitely don’t doubt that it’s not worth it for you to respond. :lol

At this point, ignoring my posts is the percentage play. Won’t stop me from dunking on your threads. Sorry buddy.

[Axe]

:blah
Translation: 'i got owned by peja so many times but that wouldn't stop me from my usual bot trolling'

[And1AllDay]

is they playing against:

john storks and terry porter and magic aids and hornacek? :oldlol::oldlol:

ez 8 -0 since bran dont quit like a binch


or does he gotta play against duncan, dirk, curry, durant, kawhi

:oldlol:

goteeeeeeeeeem

[3ba11]

Won’t stop me from dunking on your threads. Sorry buddy.


If your arguments are dumb so literally no one responds to them, then who cares

[And1AllDay]

does bran play against weak inferior 90s teams like john storks and terry porter? or does he gotta play grown man modern teams like curry, duncan, kd, kawhi, garnett, dirk?

8-0 vs trash 90s

no contest

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

If your arguments are dumb so literally no one responds to them, then who cares

Hmm. Seems like most others both understand and agree with them.

Through sheer coincidence it appears as if the only ones who find my arguments irrelevant and incomprehensible are…the ones that are unable to respond.

That’s a weird bit of happenstance hey? Everyone understand them perfectly, except for the posters getting dragged through the mud. :roll:

[3ba11]

curry (Isiah), duncan (Malone), kd (Bird - MJ lost by less than Lebron), kawhi (Magic), garnett (Barkley), dirk (Ewing)?




^^^ Fixed above... MJ's comp was similar to Lebron's or better

And it should be mentioned that MJ played better against the best guys that Lebron ever faced - MJ was MVP over 96' Shaq and won the conference from him, while Shaq won the conference and title from Lebron in 06'... MJ also dunked on Duncan and destroyed Duncan's bully (Utah)

[3ba11]

the ones that are unable to respond.




no one responds to you, not even me.

you couldn't respond to my points, so I stopped responding to you.. it's that simple..

just because you write a bunch of text doesn't mean you're responding to anything.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

no one responds to you, not even me.

you couldn't respond to my points, so I stopped responding to you.. it's that simple..

just because you write a bunch of text doesn't mean you're responding to anything.


Examples? Which specific points did I leave? Can you refer back to the post, and then our esteemed readers can make heads or tails of whether I responded to it?

[3ba11]

Examples? Which specific points did I leave? Can you refer back to the post, and then our esteemed readers can make heads or tails of whether I responded to it?


Anyone can see that you're just posting a bunch of crap to pretend that you're countering points being made.. it's literal fraud.. You're probably like those guys on American Greed that make fake financial statements to defraud people.

it's a tired act and i gave you some rope for a while.. if we go back through the hundreds of pages, we can see that at one point or another, you actually agree with every point that I make about Lebron... At one point or another you have conceded and/or agreed to every single one.. You do it in passing and then go back to your fraud.. This is fact and documented.. No I won't provide examples but anyone can pull up the "individual defenders are overrated" thread and see.. it's fact.. you agree with me on Bron's skillset because who wouldn't agree with stats that are in black and white or the historical record of events?.. you're forced to agree and you have.. on every point

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Anyone can see that you're just posting a bunch of crap to pretend that you're countering points being made.. it's literal fraud.. You're probably like those guys on American Greed that make fake financial statements to defraud people.

it's a tired act and i gave you some rope for a while.. if we go back through the hundreds of pages, we can see that at one point or another, you actually agree with every point that I make about Lebron... At one point or another you have conceded and/or agreed to every single one.. You do it in passing and then go back to your fraud.. This is fact and documented.. No I won't provide examples but anyone can pull up the "individual defenders are overrated" thread and see.. it's fact.. you agree with me on Bron's skillset because who wouldn't agree with stats that are in black and white or the historical record of events?.. you're forced to agree and you have.. on every point



Examples? Quotes?

Re: fraud - yes, that means a lot from the person that literally doctored my posts, when quoting them, to make them easier to respond to. :roll:


Happy to produce the receipt:


You manually changed the quote.

Here is what I said:



Here is what you changed it to:



LMAO.

So we've progressed even past you merely not reading, responding to, or evading my arguments (all of which you also do, still).

You are now even altering the things I'm saying.


Yikes!

Anywho, hope the next thread is more fortuitous.

[sdot_thadon]

Somebody shook in here

[3ba11]

Actually Lebron would shoot leas, and Pippen and Grant would average more ppg.





Pippen's horrific efficiency confirms that he couldn't handle a bigger load, while his 22 ppg in 94' showed that he played near capacity alongside MJ.. Ditto Grant..

Since teammates played to capacity alongside MJ, Lebron would need to undertake the same unprecedented scoring load that MJ did to win.. This includes scoring champion production while winning titles, and also defeating max defensive attention in every series (carry scoring load).. Lebron isn't capable of these things because he's routinely outscored by teammates or opponents in many series.

In addition to undertaking the goat scoring load, Lebron would also need to have great chemistry with a spotty-shooting ball-handler like Pippen, which never occurred with Westbrook, Wade, Ingram, or Hughes.. Unfortunately, there's a massive sample size of Lebron NOT doing the things required to win on the 90's Bulls, aka not scoring enough or not fitting with many teammates and cratering them instead

[RRR3]

Peja gives Snivelball the absolute shivers :lol

Dude waking up at night soaked in sweat screaming "NOOOOO PEJA NOOOOOO!"

[3ba11]

Peja gives Snivelball the absolute shivers :lol

Dude waking up at night soaked in sweat screaming "NOOOOO PEJA NOOOOOO!"


You guys don't understand the meaning of "sample size", so there's no use engaging in discussion of something you don't understand.

You can't make excuses for each example in a large sample size, since that defeats the very purpose of a big sample size (having enough examples to show a clear trend and eliminate the noise/excuses)

[RRR3]

You guys don't understand the meaning of "sample size", so there's no use engaging in discussion of something you don't understand.

You can't make excuses for each example in a large sample size, since that defeats the very purpose of a big sample size (having enough examples to show a clear trend and eliminate the noise/excuses)
I have no idea what you're babbling about, all I know is Peja destroyed you so bad in the Nuggets thread you ran away and never came back and are so traumatized you won't even debate him anymore. Sad!

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

You guys don't understand the meaning of "sample size", so there's no use engaging in discussion of something you don't understand.

You can't make excuses for each example in a large sample size, since that defeats the very purpose of a big sample size (having enough examples to show a clear trend and eliminate the noise/excuses)


Quotes?

Which ones were excuses? Why?

[3ba11]

you won't even debate him anymore. Sad!


I won't debate And1AllDay, red1, Peja and many other dorks in the forum.. standard procedure for those guys - they get destroyed and exposed as immature kids.. I don't think anyone debates them

[1987_Lakers]

lmao at 3ball being shook by Peja.

[Axe]

I won't debate And1AllDay, red1, Peja and many other dorks in the forum.. standard procedure for those guys - they get destroyed and exposed as immature kids.. I don't think anyone debates them
Meltdown.

[And1AllDay]

I won't debate And1AllDay, red1, Peja and many other dorks in the forum.. standard procedure for those guys - they get destroyed and exposed as immature kids.. I don't think anyone debates them

deddy spanked you good, call me louie

gave you red bottoms

[And1AllDay]

lmao at 3ball being shook by Peja.

+1

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

I won't debate And1AllDay, red1, Peja and many other dorks in the forum.. standard procedure for those guys - they get destroyed and exposed as immature kids.. I don't think anyone debates them

Damn, that many people have cucked you?

[Axe]

Damn, that many people have cucked you?
:yaohappy:

[RogueBorg]

Actually Lebron would shoot leas, and Pippen and Grant would average more ppg.

LeBron or Jordan shooting less so Pippen and Grant could shoot more is not the recipe for success.

[ShawkFactory]

LeBron or Jordan shooting less so Pippen and Grant could shoot more is not the recipe for success.

I'm not saying that Lebron would win all of those titles in the 90s, but how do you know this?

3ball (and apparently you) seem to be under this Jordan spell of thinking that just because something happened a certain way, that it had to happen that way. This is often not the case.

If Jordan decides to take 3-4 less shots a game and 6-8 points are distributed elsewhere around the team, does that really make them worse? Jordan scoring 29 instead 35, Pippen doing 22 instead and 20, Grant 13 instead of 11, and maybe an extra point from any of Armstrong/Hodges/etc. makes the Bulls no longer dominant? I don't really buy it.

[sdot_thadon]

LeBron or Jordan shooting less so Pippen and Grant could shoot more is not the recipe for success.

Pippen was pretty deadly in transition and pretty much as good off ball as anyone Lebrons played with aside from Wade and Davis, maybe Bosh without thinking too much into it. He'd be a great target for a great passer. Grant similarly was good enough to lead the entire NBA in offensive rating in 92, right even higher than Mj. I'm sure he'd benefit from the same type of looks Lebron created for Big Z and Varejeo and later Bosh. These weren't garbage men Mj played with.

[3ba11]

I'm sure Horace would benefit from the same type of looks Lebron created for Big Z and Varejeo and later Bosh.





Horace got better looks in the triangle because Jordan had four #1 offenses while Lebron-ball has none in 2 decades of playing.

Accordingly, guys like Varejao or Zydrunas would benefit MORE from the great brand of ball and #1 offenses that MJ's skillset allows

Jordan allowed the best brand of ball like the Spurs, Warriors, or Nuggets, aka ball movement and high team assists, while Lebron-ball doesn't allow this top brand and gets beat BY this brand.

Furthermore, every 3rd option in the 90's was a 3x all-star, All-NBA or HOF, while Horace was a 1-time all-star.

The 3x all-stars were Nance/Aguirre/Laimbeer/Majerle... The All-NBA guys were Mason/Mashburn/Schrempf, while Vlade is HOF (and destroyed Grant in 91' Finals)..

Furthermore, the Knicks had Ewing, Starks, Anthony Mason, Mark Jackson and X-Man, who were all superior to Horace.. Meanwhile, guys like Oakley, Charles Smith and other guys were equal to Horace - the Bulls were simply a THIN TEAM compared to any other contender because Grant would be a 5th option on contenders like the Knicks, Blazers, Lakers, Cavs or Suns during the 1st three-peat.

[Duderonomy]

Pat Riley and the Heat already figured out how to win with toxic Bron ball. You need a rebounding PF with range and 3 and D players around him. It even worked last season to a certain extent.

[3ba11]

I'm not saying that Lebron would win all of those titles in the 90s, but how do you know this?





We know this because Lebron loses to long-standing, organic juggernauts like the Nuggets, Mavs, Spurs, or Warriors - these types of long-standing teams with great chemistry are the only types of teams that existed in the 80's and 90's, so Lebron's weaker chemistry and brand of ball would get destroyed in those eras much worse than it already gets destroyed today (perennial underdog regardless of cast).

[Hey Yo]

We know this because Lebron loses to long-standing, organic juggernauts like the Nuggets, Mavs, Spurs, or Warriors - these types of long-standing teams with great chemistry are the only types of teams that existed in the 80's and 90's, so Lebron's weaker chemistry and brand of ball would get destroyed in those eras much worse than it already gets destroyed today (perennial underdog regardless of cast).

Already debunked with facts by Peja.

[3ba11]

Already debunked with facts by Peja.


There's nothing to debunk - history shows that Lebron lost BADLY to long-standing organic juggernauts like the Nuggets, Mavs, Spurs and Warriors.

He literally lost to these guys by record amount, sweep or goat choke - it's impossible to lose in a worse way or degree - it would be foolish to ignore this and not think there's a contrast between Lebron's talent-based approach (all-star team strategy) and the organic chemistry or superior brand of the teams that he loses to..

And we know why he decided against the chemistry approach and opted for a talent-based approach - it's because his ball-dominance and "bron-ball" skillset was incapable of developing sufficient chemistry to win the East with homecourt in 09' or 10', so he "decided" to start stacking the deck and diluting the conference through collusion with opponents.. He literally gave up and teamed up with opponents.

[Axe]

Already debunked with facts by Peja.
The insecure incel has spoken. Tyvm, captain obvious.

[And1AllDay]

Pat Riley and the Heat already figured out how to win with toxic Bron ball. You need a rebounding PF with range and 3 and D players around him. It even worked last season to a certain extent.

and toxic mikey ball? you need the best #2 option in the league and best defender in the league who does all the work and gets top 3 mvp votes the year you bounce

then you just need horrace grant most efficent 3rd option in bball playoff history lol oh and dont forget hall of game phil jackson goat coach and rebounding goat rodman

ah yes and of course you need the worst competition ever with terry portor, john storks, and jeff hornacek finals teams :oldlol:

but thats it!!!!!!!!11!!!!!