T-Mac on why Michael Jordan is better than LeBron James

[RogueBorg]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/t-mac-on-why-michael-jordan-is-better-than-lebron-james-when-it-was-time-to-get-a-bucket-mj-was-that-dude-to-take-over-the-game/ar-AA1eENfz?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=54e15efd754b4946a41ab7a4c9c68e4c&ei=18



Tracy McGrady says Michael Jordan is greater than LeBron James because of MJ's ability to take over games. According to T-Mac, Jordan was the guy you could count on when the game was on the line. MJ had the clutch ability to make big shots and demanded the ball when there was a need to make a big basket.

Speaking at ESPN's The Jump, T-Mac once said:

"For me, I think just completely taking over games when it really counts. Not deferring to anybody at any given time. Yeah, there's times when he passed off to a John Paxson or Steve Kerr, yeah but when it's time to get a bucket, MJ was that dude to take over a game, averaging 40 in the Finals one year, winning that championship. I mean, defending the best players. I can't…. He's just the greatest to me, man"

"It doesn't take away from LeBron; he's awesome, the best in our era, that I've seen he's the best. But the GOAT? That's MJ."

MJ always wanted the ball in his hands
According to T-Mac, the main difference between Michael Jordan and LeBron James is that Michael would always demand the ball when the game was on the line. Although we saw prime LeBron take over a game like his 48-point game against the Detroit Pistons in 2007, James is often criticized for his seeming lack of a clutch gene.

We've seen so many instances when LeBron had the ball in his hands in the final moments of a game. But instead of assuming the responsibility of taking the game-winning shot, the 'unselfish' LeBron James has always chosen to make 'the right play' in those moments, even if it means passing the ball and letting his teammates take the shot.

As Jordan's teammate Scottie Pippen told McGrady during the same show:

"I can praise LeBron in a different way because people like T-Mac, guys who love to score, would love to play with LeBron because they want the ball as well. When you play with a guy like Michael, he's a superior scorer. When you come out of the huddle, and you see that he wants the ball…You can't compare him to LeBron because he is not that guy. LeBron is not gonna be the guy that says 'I want the last shot'.

LeBron's Disappearing Acts
Aside from not always being the one to take the last shot for his team, McGrady also pointed to LeBron James' disappearing acts in the Finals as another reason why he cannot be better than Jordan, who was always at his peak when the stakes were high.

T-Mac specifically mentioned the 2011 NBA Finals, where LeBron's Heat lost to an underdog Dallas Mavericks team, a series where LeBron admitted he 'wasn't even there.'

"I guess it's hard for me to look back and, you know, in few of those finals where LeBron was a no-show. Look at the first championship run with Miami against that Dallas team, It's hard for me to get over that how he performed in that. Now he's learned over the years of going back and being dominant, but to have those mishaps, MJ never had that."

In that series, LeBron averaged just 17.8 points per game despite playing an average of 43.6 minutes and scoring 26.7 points per game during the regular season. He had a disappointing 8-point performance in Game 4 where the Mavs tied the series instead of the Cavs taking a commanding 3-1 series lead. Dallas would win the next two games to complete the upset over the Heatles.

[ShawkFactory]

Pretty much on par with what every reasonable person says..

[Johnny32]

Tracy McGrady: “I think if you want to start a team, I’m going to go with LeBron because of him being able to take lesser talent and elevate those guys… Because of his pass-first mentality, being able to elevate his team in terms of their style of play. Mike is going out there trying to get 30 and 40 points. He’s not looking to make his team better.”

Cry moar, limp dick.

[theman93]

https://www.mercurynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/bng-l-warriors-0601-1571-e1527834123801.jpg?w=620

[RogueBorg]

https://www.mercurynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/bng-l-warriors-0601-1571-e1527834123801.jpg?w=620

He should have been calling for a timeout instead of telling J.R. to pass it to Hill in the corner, which is exactly what he did. Both absolutely clueless. The rest is history.

[Da_Realist]

MJ was a competitor. As such, he represented best how to persevere and overcome challenges (instead of running from team to team), building the chemistry necessary to establish a dynasty by being active and present with them every day.
He dedicated himself fully to the game both as the leader and best player for his team, as a 13 year representative for his franchise and as the face of the league. No load management. He played hard every night. He accepted his responsibility to his team, his fans and the league by being active and present every game.
He managed the game better. Very rarely was he blown out or beaten badly (swept or 1-4 playoff losses) without a fight.
He held himself more accountable than his critics did. He didn't blame his teammates for losses. He didn't make up injuries as an excuse for losses. He didn't whine to the press about needing more help.
He defended his championship 4 times. It's harder to defend a title than it is to win it in the first place.
He greatly increased the popularity of the game.

This is all in addition to the fact he was a better player.

[Baller234]

Tracy McGrady: “I think if you want to start a team, I’m going to go with LeBron because of him being able to take lesser talent and elevate those guys… Because of his pass-first mentality, being able to elevate his team in terms of their style of play. Mike is going out there trying to get 30 and 40 points. He’s not looking to make his team better.”

Cry moar, limp dick.

Lol, this does kind of make T-Mac look like a moron. The ultimate measure of a player's greatness is choosing them first to build your team around. If you're openly admitting that you would take Lebron first, that means you think he's better.

Having said that, I definitely would not pick Lebron over MJ to start my team around. That's not a knock on Lebron, there's just nobody that's getting picked ahead of MJ.

[Da_Realist]

Lol, this does kind of make T-Mac look like a moron. The ultimate measure of a player's greatness is choosing them first to build your team around. If you're openly admitting that you would take Lebron first, that means you think he's better.

Having said that, I definitely would not pick Lebron over MJ to start my team around. That's not a knock on Lebron, there's just nobody that's getting picked ahead of MJ.

It could just mean T-Mac would rather win when he has a higher scoring load than not. He'd rather win scoring 27 per game than 21.

[And1AllDay]

anyone pass bran in scoring yet?

no?

playoff scoring?
no?

oh

regular season scoring?
no?
oh

thought so.

[HylianNightmare]

Pretty much on par with what every reasonable person says..

This. If you have 2 eyes and a basic understanding of basketball it's ****ing obvious

[tpols]

Tmac kinda contradicts himself saying he'd take MJ as GOAT easily and then says he'd take Bron to start a team.
He's playing both sides of the fence but MJ actually squeezed more juice out his teams ~ better assist ranks and #1 offenses and 6/6 prime dominance.

[Bawkish]

Tmac kinda contradicts himself saying he'd take MJ as GOAT easily and then says he'd take Bron to start a team.
He's playing both sides of the fence but MJ actually squeezed more juice out his teams ~ better assist ranks and #1 offenses and 6/6 prime dominance.

I think he's implying that as since you wanted to start from scratch then Bron is a great floor raiser. He's able to distribute, score and make plays that make a normal team compete. MJ is more of a ceiling raiser, give him teammates that have strong fundamentals and talent and he'll lead you to new heights

[SATAN]

https://www.mercurynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/bng-l-warriors-0601-1571-e1527834123801.jpg?w=620

I know you haven't watched a game since 2003 but LeBron had his hands out calling for the ball before Smith ran out dragging two defenders towards him hence the pointing elsewhere.

Not that I think it was a good idea signalling a pass to Hill at that particular moment but if the guy idiotically just runs out with no idea what's going, basically running out the remaining few seconds, I mean what the hell are you gonna do? And to the guy that said just call a time out, that is exactly the reason he left. He shouldn't have to do EVERYTHING. Imagine the confusion. It's like you guys expect him to be this absolutely flawless player. It's crazy.

If anything, the expectations further his GOAT case...

[Wardell Curry]

I think he's implying that as since you wanted to start from scratch then Bron is a great floor raiser. He's able to distribute, score and make plays that make a normal team compete. MJ is more of a ceiling raiser, give him teammates that have strong fundamentals and talent and he'll lead you to new heights

If it's true that LeBron is a better "floor raiser" as you put it and that Jordan is a better "ceiling raiser", would that then not make the term 'better' at least somewhat subjective?

[Wardell Curry]

I know you haven't watched a game since 2003 but LeBron had his hands out calling for the ball before Smith ran out dragging two defenders towards him hence the pointing elsewhere.

Not that I think it was a good idea signalling a pass to Hill at that particular moment but if the guy idiotically just runs out with no idea what's going, basically running out the remaining few seconds, I mean what the hell are you gonna do? And to the guy that said just call a time out, that is exactly the reason he left. He shouldn't have to do EVERYTHING. Imagine the confusion. It's like you guys expect him to be this absolutely flawless player. It's crazy.

If anything, the expectations further his GOAT case...

While the players are not blameless, this situation was a clear coaching error. How is it not standard practice to tell your team the amount of timeouts you have in such a situation? How is the coach not immediately calling for timeout after a rebound, regardless of the players?

There's 4.7 seconds left on the clock and play has stopped due to a foul against Golden State, you're down 1 with 2 free throws coming up and your players don't know how many timeouts you have left and what to do if you get a rebound? This is a massive coaching blunder.

JR Smith blundered with not knowing the score but Lue blundered even worse with not telling his team about their timeout situation and not calling the timeout himself. It's just that Lue is not in the camera shot and James is demonstrative in his body language so everyone pretends that it had nothing to do with Lue even though he was the biggest culprit.

Not that any of this matters. Those Cavs as a whole had no business being in the Finals and weren't going to win anyways.

[Johnny32]

Game 1 of the 2018 finals should not be typed about without mentioning the rig job by the refs down the stretch to certify a victory over LeBron 1v8. Multiple obvious no calls on LeBron. Charges changed to blocking fouls for gsw/kd. It was pathetic and embarrassing.

[FireDavidKahn]

TMac was an overrated loser who never got out of the first round

[RogueBorg]

And to the guy that said just call a time out, that is exactly the reason he left. He shouldn't have to do EVERYTHING. Imagine the confusion. It's like you guys expect him to be this absolutely flawless player. It's crazy.


I expect him to know how many timeouts they had left. Is that too much to ask?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNguHza0Qc8

[LAL]

Tracy McGrady: “I think if you want to start a team, I’m going to go with LeBron because of him being able to take lesser talent and elevate those guys… Because of his pass-first mentality, being able to elevate his team in terms of their style of play. Mike is going out there trying to get 30 and 40 points. He’s not looking to make his team better.”

Cry moar, limp dick.

He wants to keep his job in the media.

The reality is MJ (and Kobe) was better at every single thing basketball, lebron lacks the fundamentals and chases greatness with stats. Being a better clutch player isn't specual because thousands are or were better in the clutch than lecoward.

[rmt]

Lol, this does kind of make T-Mac look like a moron. The ultimate measure of a player's greatness is choosing them first to build your team around. If you're openly admitting that you would take Lebron first, that means you think he's better.

Having said that, I definitely would not pick Lebron over MJ to start my team around. That's not a knock on Lebron, there's just nobody that's getting picked ahead of MJ.

I think there's a definite distinction between who one picks to build your team around than GOAT. The first is more unselfish, gets along better with team mates, sacrifices for the team - so I would pick players more like Duncan, Magic, Russell and yes, even Lebron. But when it comes to GOAT, there's no one other than MJ for me (even though I hated him) - MJ had that killer/winner instinct and instilled that fear that Lebron does not.

So, I would say that the 2 quotes from TMac are not incompatible.

[Hey Yo]

He wants to keep his job in the media.

The reality is MJ (and Kobe) was better at every single thing basketball, lebron lacks the fundamentals and chases greatness with stats. Being a better clutch player isn't specual because thousands are or were better in the clutch than lecoward.

:roll:


poor Kobe stan

[LAL]

:roll:


poor Kobe stan

You can always compare lebron with those triple double machines (jokic, westbrook, giannis, luka,..) if want to go with stats... but even those guys are more fundamentally sound then lebron (tied with wesbrook who also is more of a football type guy). I don't know why you argue this because he chose to create superteams and cheat because he doesn't have it.

[Hey Yo]

Kobe forced his way to a contender and premier franchise before the draft even started.

Signing with a 19 win team >>>>> telling all teams not named the Lakers "don't draft me, I won't sign."

[LAL]

Lakers haven't won a title in 9 years in 1997, he decided he wanted to build a legacy with a legendary and his favorite team growing up even tough he knew the competition there would have been ruthless instead of simply stat padding from day one if he went to the hornets. We know he had all the skills and tools to average at least 25 per game his rookie season. That's what lecoward did.

[1987_Lakers]

Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%

2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%

2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%

2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%

2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG

22.2 points

FG 38.9%

FT 67.3%

8 RPG

5 APG

1 SPG

1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.



22.3 PPG

5.8 RPG


3.5 APG

1.3 SPG

1.3 BPG

on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.

[LAL]

Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%

2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%

2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%

2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%

2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG

22.2 points

FG 38.9%

FT 67.3%

8 RPG

5 APG

1 SPG

1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.



22.3 PPG

5.8 RPG


3.5 APG

1.3 SPG

1.3 BPG

on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.


Oh i agree, LeCoward is the king of STATS just like a lot of modern players. Amazing stuff.

[SATAN]

:roll:


poor Kobe stan

:yaohappy:

[Full Court]

Tracy McGrady: “I think if you want to start a team, I’m going to go with LeBron because of him being able to take lesser talent and elevate those guys… Because of his pass-first mentality, being able to elevate his team in terms of their style of play. Mike is going out there trying to get 30 and 40 points. He’s not looking to make his team better.”

Cry moar, limp dick.

Jordan: Still causing bitch fits 20 years after retiring. :roll:

GOAT.

[3ba11]

The stats back up T-Mac as Lebron averages 5 ppg in the 4th quarter of the Finals, while old MJ averaged 10 ppg in 97' and 98' Finals (the years we have data for)

Furthermore, the stats on bballref and stats.nba.com show the following:

Down the stretch of tight games, aka clutch-time (last 5 within 5), Lebron attempted 3.0 attempts per game on 40% for his playoff career (2006-2018), while old MJ attempted 3.6 on 48% in 97' and 98' Playoffs - that's 20% greater clutch burden on far superior efficiency and MUCH lower turnovers.

Again, it's a fake debate

[Baller234]

I think there's a definite distinction between who one picks to build your team around than GOAT. The first is more unselfish, gets along better with team mates, sacrifices for the team - so I would pick players more like Duncan, Magic, Russell and yes, even Lebron. But when it comes to GOAT, there's no one other than MJ for me (even though I hated him) - MJ had that killer/winner instinct and instilled that fear that Lebron does not.

So, I would say that the 2 quotes from TMac are not incompatible.

There is no distinction. The objective is to win. If you believe that Player A gives your team a better chance to win than Player B, that means:

- You believe Player A is better than Player B
- You are obligated to pick Player A before Player B in a draft

If McGrady is being honest in saying he would draft Lebron ahead of anyone else to build his team around, then yes he is all but admitting that he thinks Lebron is the greatest of all time. It's the same thing.

Personally I just don't see the argument. MJ's greatness was truly one of a kind.

[kawhileonard2]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494830-Difference-between-Lebron-and-Tmac

[Da_Realist]

There is no distinction. The objective is to win. If you believe that Player A gives your team a better chance to win than Player B, that means:

- You believe Player A is better than Player B
- You are obligated to pick Player A before Player B in a draft

If McGrady is being honest in saying he would draft Lebron ahead of anyone else to build his team around, then yes he is all but admitting that he thinks Lebron is the greatest of all time. It's the same thing.

Personally I just don't see the argument. MJ's greatness was truly one of a kind.

There can be a distinction. Who you think is the best and who you'd rather play with can be different people. I'd imagine Kobe would admit that Shaq was a greater player than Pau Gasol but I'd bet he'd rather play his career with Pau. Because he'd get more credit winning with Pau than he would winning with Shaq.

[Baller789]

If it's true that LeBron is a better "floor raiser" as you put it and that Jordan is a better "ceiling raiser", would that then not make the term 'better' at least somewhat subjective?

Not entirerly accurate.

If you want to win Conference championships, Lebron.

But if you want to win NBA championships, Jordan.

[rmt]

There is no distinction. The objective is to win. If you believe that Player A gives your team a better chance to win than Player B, that means:

- You believe Player A is better than Player B
- You are obligated to pick Player A before Player B in a draft

If McGrady is being honest in saying he would draft Lebron ahead of anyone else to build his team around, then yes he is all but admitting that he thinks Lebron is the greatest of all time. It's the same thing.

Personally I just don't see the argument. MJ's greatness was truly one of a kind.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion - just as TMac and I are ours.

I'll use my favorite player as an example. With Duncan, you got 19 years of excellence, a player willing to take less on his contract to get more talent (important in a small market), versatile (C/PF), gets along with all types of players, loyal, sacrificed his stats so Parker and Manu could grow/develop - resulting in winning 5 rings. OTOH, there are any number of players you could argue who are "greater" than TD whether going by personal stats, peak, etc. The intangible qualities that are not quantitative or measurable contribute to winning too.

We do agree on MJ as GOAT :cheers:

[Baller234]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion - just as TMac and I are ours.

I'll use my favorite player as an example. With Duncan, you got 19 years of excellence, a player willing to take less on his contract to get more talent (important in a small market), versatile (C/PF), gets along with all types of players, loyal, sacrificed his stats so Parker and Manu could grow/develop - resulting in winning 5 rings. OTOH, there are any number of players you could argue who are "greater" than TD whether going by personal stats, peak, etc. The intangible qualities that are not quantitative or measurable contribute to winning too.

We do agree on MJ as GOAT :cheers:

Right, but I didn't know we were having a discussion about which guys we think we might get along with better. I just thought we were talking about the value a player brings to the table and how it translates to winning.

I just feel that if I pick Jordan first, I'm giving my team the best chance to win. It doesn't matter who I plug around him. That's what makes him the GOAT to me.

[TheMan]

Tracy McGrady: “I think if you want to start a team, I’m going to go with LeBron because of him being able to take lesser talent and elevate those guys… Because of his pass-first mentality, being able to elevate his team in terms of their style of play. Mike is going out there trying to get 30 and 40 points. He’s not looking to make his team better.”

Cry moar, limp dick.

Fuming :roll:

[rmt]

Right, but I didn't know we were having a discussion about which guys we think we might get along with better. I just thought we were talking about the value a player brings to the table and how it translates to winning.

I just feel that if I pick Jordan first, I'm giving my team the best chance to win. It doesn't matter who I plug around him. That's what makes him the GOAT to me.

To you and me, for whom MJ is such a clear, undisputed GOAT, that may be the case. In TMAC's case though, maybe MJ and Lebron are closer and then I could see where he would choose Lebron to build a team around (his team hopping ways would be a major negative factor here).

[Keno]

even though t-mac's opinion is irrelevant, his reasoning is so dumb, lebron is far better than jordan in that aspect of the game too, facing elimination, game 7s, etc. lebron is also facing real competition, not washed up players/grocery bag clerks.

[theman93]

even though t-mac's opinion is irrelevant, his reasoning is so dumb, lebron is far better than jordan in that aspect of the game too, facing elimination, game 7s, etc. lebron is also facing real competition, not washed up players/grocery bag clerks.

Real competition like midget JJ Barrea? Who Dwyane Wade said they had no answer for? LMFAO

https://youtube.com/shorts/3fpeBha9tGw?feature=sharea

[TheMan]

even though t-mac's opinion is irrelevant, his reasoning is so dumb, lebron is far better than jordan in that aspect of the game too, facing elimination, game 7s, etc. lebron is also facing real competition, not washed up players/grocery bag clerks.

Only people who consider LeFraud as the GOAT are his stans, everyone else, no matter who their favorite player was, picks MJ.

Sorry

[Johnny32]

even though t-mac's opinion is irrelevant, his reasoning is so dumb, lebron is far better than jordan in that aspect of the game too, facing elimination, game 7s, etc. lebron is also facing real competition, not washed up players/grocery bag clerks.

fax hurt their lil feelings...as you can see above.

[Soundwave]

It's not just "clutch gene" that simplifies it. Jordan's mid-range game is just built for the playoffs, his ability to manufacture a basket here, a basket there when the team badly needed it staked the Bulls in many games and kept them afloat long enough for other parts of the offence to kick in.

It's an underrated aspect of basketball, you saw it in the Phoenix-LAC series briefly when Kawhi was cooking Durant and Booker ... because his mid-range game is basically a poor man's version of Jordan's, but you could see how effectively it was it a tighter playoff style of basketball. Unfortunately for him he legs are toast and he injured himself or the Clippers probably win that series.

[Bawkish]

even though t-mac's opinion is irrelevant, his reasoning is so dumb, lebron is far better than jordan in that aspect of the game too, facing elimination, game 7s, etc. lebron is also facing real competition, not washed up players/grocery bag clerks.

LOL at better facing elimination

It's like saying "Look how good i didn't get things f*cked up at the last minute"

[kawhileonard2]

Also Jamal Murray popped Lebron several times and then got popped by Anthony Edwards

[FKAri]

It's not just "clutch gene" that simplifies it. Jordan's mid-range game is just built for the playoffs, his ability to manufacture a basket here, a basket there when the team badly needed it staked the Bulls in many games and kept them afloat long enough for other parts of the offence to kick in.

It's an underrated aspect of basketball, you saw it in the Phoenix-LAC series briefly when Kawhi was cooking Durant and Booker ... because his mid-range game is basically a poor man's version of Jordan's, but you could see how effectively it was it a tighter playoff style of basketball. Unfortunately for him he legs are toast and he injured himself or the Clippers probably win that series.

Yes. LeBron might be the best player in history at punishing defensive lapses and mistakes. But he's not all-time great at making something out of nothing on the offensive end. This is where Kobe and even moreso MJ have a substantial lead on LeBron. In the playoffs or in clutch situation where teams are making less mistakes and defenses are more solid you need guys who can make something out of nothing.

[Soundwave]

Lol, this does kind of make T-Mac look like a moron. The ultimate measure of a player's greatness is choosing them first to build your team around. If you're openly admitting that you would take Lebron first, that means you think he's better.

Having said that, I definitely would not pick Lebron over MJ to start my team around. That's not a knock on Lebron, there's just nobody that's getting picked ahead of MJ.

Yeah I've never really gotten this line of logic, if you want a ball distributor that bad, it's a lot easier to just go get a decent PG to distribute the ball then, it's a lot harder to find another player to go with LeBron who has a killer instinct in the playoffs and can be trusted to make shots down the stretch when he's being more passive.

Finding a player that can take over a game, even a series and completely tip the balance of it is a lot harder to find or do by committee. If you have one dominant clutch scorer/game breaker like that it's a lot easier to just then go backwards from there and fill in the gaps with a playmaker role player some where else on the roster.

[SATAN]

LeBron is I should I say was known for doing more with less, not to mention he can play and guard multiple positions so...














































1-9.

[HylianNightmare]

Pretty much on par with what every reasonable person says..

Literally

[kawhileonard2]

LeBron is I should I say was known for doing more with less, not to mention he can play and guard multiple positions so...














































1-9.

Lebron has missed the playoffs as much as titles won. Lost with HCA with prime Shaq and lost in round 2 with him. He also missed the playoffs with peak Anthony Davis and Russell Westbrook and has gotten swept at least 3 times in series 4-0. Lost with HCA at least 3x and won 2 bronze medals.