Amare Stoudemire averaged 37 pts against prime Tim Duncan in the playoff

[iamgine]

Good thing Phoenix lost the series or else it'd really put a damp on Duncan's defensive reputation.

[Dbrog]

Was literally Pops game plan just like against the Lakers when he let Kobe "get his." Specifically with Phoenix the idea was if you collapse, there are just too many shooters that were going to light you up. Didn't you watch back then?

[ShawkFactory]

Yea I mean the Spurs won in 5 and it was clear that the Spurs were lent trying to slow the game down and we’re saving for the offensive end where they knew they had more options and were better.

It was a strange series and showed the Spurs adaptability as a team.

Having said that. Amare was an amazing offensive player. Kind of like the Tmac of PFs in that sense. But he did absolutely nothing the stop anything the other way and the Spurs knew that.

[Norcaliblunt]

Amares most impressive play in that series wasn’t even on offense. It was his game winning block on Duncan in game 4.

[SouBeachTalents]

spurs allowed it. they wanted Amar'e to go off because it would mean the rest of the team isn't going to run their best in the league offense style.


but that one year...when the jew decided to suspend amar'e for a pivotal game, that series was going to be won by phoenix if the jew didn't step in. spurs knew they were going to lose as well, they saw the writing on the wall and pop put a bounty on Nash. league never cared to investigate dirty behaviour like that, it's actually very suspicious how the league operated back then, on certain things they were on some dictator shit, but on actually shady things they looked the other way.
Looking at the stats from that series, Nash went off too, and Joe Johnson met his regular season averages. But what jumped out to me, after averaging 19 in the regular season & 20+ on high efficiency in the first 2 rounds, Marion averaged 8 ppg on 41%TS :biggums: I honestly never noticed how atrocious his offensive output was in that series.

As for the rest

https://media.tenor.com/r5f0TrDu82kAAAAd/patrick-bateman-american-psycho-cool-it-with-the-antisemetic-remarks-latkas.gif

[tontoz]

Didnt JJ miss some games in that series with a broken face? Sucks that team was only together for 1 yr. :(

[Norcaliblunt]

That Suns team wasn’t deep enough to beat the Spurs and Joe Johnson going down basically assured a loss.

Amare pre micro fracture surgery was something else as a finisher. One of the best ever.

[tpols]

Was literally Pops game plan just like against the Lakers when he let Kobe "get his." Specifically with Phoenix the idea was if you collapse, there are just too many shooters that were going to light you up. Didn't you watch back then?

Letting Amare go off like that was definitely not in the spurs game plan. Shawn Marion was the weak link with his awful spacing, shooting, scoring, and passing. The suns probably would've won with a PJ Tucker or Robert covington type in his place. Anybody that could shoot a jumper and play defense.

[Norcaliblunt]

Phoenix never really had a secondary playmaker behind Nash. As good as Amare was finishing the ball he wasn’t collecting assists, or manufacturing points all by himself isolated in the half court. It’s all pick and roll, pick and pop. He did get to the free throw line a lot which was great. But the Suns needed a legit shot creator or playmaker as the second option. Just look at SA they had 3 dudes who could actually handle the rock, playmake, or isolate and score.

And not to mention the defense. Lol.

[RRR3]

no its not.
How

[Spurs m8]

Was literally Pops game plan just like against the Lakers when he let Kobe "get his." Specifically with Phoenix the idea was if you collapse, there are just too many shooters that were going to light you up. Didn't you watch back then?

Lol ethered him.

[tontoz]

JTA — Amar’e Stoudemire has officially finished his conversion to Judaism.




https://www.timesofisrael.com/amare-stoudemire-completes-his-conversion-to-judaism/

[rmt]

Spurs' game plan was always to let Nash and Amare have theirs and shut down Suns' 3 point shooters. And it worked - Nash/Amare couldn't score enough and Suns couldn't stop Spurs on the defensive end either.

[warriorfan]

xcept for that one year where pop had to physically hurt nash and beg david stern to suspend amare. you guys were getting creampied that year.


then of course dragic creampied tony parker in 2010.

thank god you were there to eat all the pies afterwards

[dankok8]

Amare was incredible to watch. If only it weren't for all the injuries...

[3ba11]

.
22-23 years old vs championship team and #1 defense


Jordan vs Celtics................. 44 on 50%
Amare vs Spurs................ 37 on 55%
Magic vs Sixers................... FMVP
..
Lebron. vs Spurs................. 22 on 36%
Lebron. vs Celts.................. 22 on 36%

[warriorfan]

.
22-23 years old vs championship team and #1 defense


Jordan vs Celtics................. 44 on 50%
Amare vs Spurs................ 37 on 55%
Magic vs Sixers................... FMVP
..
Lebron. vs Spurs................. 22 on 36%
Lebron. vs Celts.................. 22 on 36%

LeBron fans try to argue that LeBrons first Finals “doesn’t count” because he was so young and inexperienced. Yet if you look in 2012, LeBron’s super team beat a group of just as young and inexperienced players who were all 22 or 23 years old in Westbrook Harden and KD.

So according to their logic 2012 doesn’t count as well.

Also LeBron’s second finals at age 26 was of course one of the biggest disasters of all time….

So LeBron was 26 years old with way more experience as it was his second Finals…and still couldn’t figure it out.


If the supposed goat is unable to have a good finals until his third time around….why do the stans celebrate 2012 when it was vs much lesser, younger, and inexperienced players. Especially considering LeBron colluded with a super team that combined the highest, second, and fourth highest PER in the league. (Wade was already an established superstar champion with his 2006 legendary run as well)

[1987_Lakers]

Only a matter of time before Peja comes back to put 3ball back to sleep

[1987_Lakers]

LeBron fans try to argue that LeBrons first Finals “doesn’t count” because he was so young and inexperienced. Yet if you look in 2012, LeBron’s super team beat a group of just as young and inexperienced players who were all 22 or 23 years old in Westbrook Harden and KD.

So according to their logic 2012 doesn’t count as well.

tf is this garbage? Not only was LeBron inexperienced, but he had a shit cast going up against a dynasty, which is why people usually give him a pass.

OKC although young, were a championship caliber team, beat Kobe-Gasol Lakers, beat Dynasty Spurs in the WCF, & were favorites heading into the Finals against Miami.

[warriorfan]

tf is this garbage? Not only was LeBron inexperienced, but he had a shit cast going up against a dynasty, which is why people usually give him a pass.

OKC although young, were a championship caliber team, beat Kobe-Gasol Lakers, beat Dynasty Spurs in the WCF, & were favorites heading into the Finals against Miami.

It took Lebron 3 final trips and have 8 seasons in the league before he was able to muster up a good finals performance.

OKC were young pups of 22 and 23 years old, first Finals and not very many seasons in total as well

They had no chance. Easy pickins.

[1987_Lakers]

It took Lebron 3 final trips and have 8 seasons in the league before he was able to muster up a good finals performance.


It took Curry 6 finals trips to finally win FMVP

[1987_Lakers]

OKC were young pups of 22 and 23 years old, first Finals and not very many seasons in total as well

They had no chance. Easy pickins.

They had no chance, yet they were favorites and beat some tough competition to get there. gtfo.

Blazers won a title in '77 with their 5 best players all being under 25.

[warriorfan]

They had no chance, yet they were favorites and beat some tough competition to get there. gtfo.

Blazers won a title in '77 with their 5 best players all being under 25.

yeah it’s happened like once in the entire history of the nba and 25 is a lot different from 22

[1987_Lakers]

yeah it’s happened like once in the entire history of the nba and 25 is a lot different from 22

They had no chance because they were "young", but you still didn't address why they were favorites against Miami, or how they beat vastly experienced teams with championships that same year like the Lakers with Kobe/Gasol & Spurs with Duncan/Manu/Parker.

To compare the '07 Cavs & '12 Thunder and call them similar is flat out dumb, and you know it.

[warriorfan]

They had no chance because they were "young", but you still didn't address why they were favorites against Miami, or how they beat vastly experienced teams with championships that same year like the Lakers with Kobe/Gasol & Spurs with Duncan/Manu/Parker.

To compare the '07 Cavs & '12 Thunder and call them similar is flat out dumb, and you know it.

09 cavs were favored and had HCA over orlando


vegas doesn’t always get it right

[1987_Lakers]

09 cavs were favored and had HCA over orlando


vegas doesn’t always get it right

Yes, but you still ignored my other point because you know I'm right. OKC wasn't just some young team that fluked their way into the Finals, they actually made the WCF the year before. I remember before the '12 season started many people including myself picked them to make the Finals and we saw them destroy a Spurs team with championship DNA in the WCF after they got down 0-2 in the series. They were looked as a young team with major talent and seen as championship contenders by mostly everyone, from the beginning of the season.

Cavs beating the Pistons in the ECF in '07 was looked as a big upset by every fan basically, and that was when Ben Wallace wasn't even with Detroit anymore, which should tell you most people knew that Cavs team wasn't that good.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

.
22-23 years old vs championship team and #1 defense


Jordan vs Celtics................. 44 on 50%
Amare vs Spurs................ 37 on 55%
Magic vs Sixers................... FMVP
..
Lebron. vs Spurs................. 22 on 36%
Lebron. vs Celts.................. 22 on 36%


If LeBron had Prime Kareem or a stacked Suns team (Nash, Marion, Johnson) to work with and still put up those numbers…he’d get some deserved flak (as he did in ‘11).

Alas he did not…so those are two unsurprisingly stupid comparisons.

Individual players, you see, often perform worse in the playoffs when the opposing team (a both defensive dynasties, no less), spend every film session game-planning around you and not your teammates.

[SouBeachTalents]

OKC was very young but that doesn't mean they weren't an elite team. They had won 50+ games the previous 2 years, were a shot away from forcing the champion Lakers to a 7th game in 2010, and made the WCF the year before. They also thugged the 3 most experienced teams in their conference, teams who had all won championships, going 12-3 against them on their way to the Finals.

It's frankly only an argument that gets brought up because LeBron beat them :lol Nobody brings up the age argument to diminish Hakeem's title in '95 or Bird's in '86, even though Shaq/Penny & Hakeem were the same age as the OKC players those seasons, and Sampson was just 25. And like OKC, they also knocked off the veteran teams in their conference, beating the Showtime Lakers & Jordan Bulls on their way to the Finals.

[ShawkFactory]

09 cavs were favored and had HCA over orlando


vegas doesn’t always get it right

Lebron didn’t play well in 07 for sure. But I think (just think) that the difference between the 07 Cavs and 12 Thunder is that one team had 3 MVP talents and the other did not.

The similarity is that they were both young but outside of that it’s not a remotely comparable situation.

[warriorfan]

Lebron didn’t play well in 07 for sure. But I think (just think) that the difference between the 07 Cavs and 12 Thunder is that one team had 3 MVP talents and the other did not.

The similarity is that they were both young but outside of that it’s not a remotely comparable situation.

what about 11?

at that point lebron had the experience in both nba and also deep post season including finals, he had all nba teammates he hand picked, he was in his physical prime. he still choked.

[ShawkFactory]

what about 11?

at that point lebron had the experience in both nba and also deep post season including finals, he had all nba teammates he hand picked, he was in his physical prime. he still choked.

Wasn’t aware that the conversation was about 11. To my knowledge it was the comparison between young Lebron and young thunder. At least that’s what I was responding to.

Nice twist though.

[warriorfan]

Wasn’t aware that the conversation was about 11. To my knowledge it was the comparison between young Lebron and young thunder. At least that’s what I was responding to.

Nice twist though.

no no. it started as young lebron and how he gets a pass for 07 due to age and lack of experience. but when you apply the same criteria to his opposition in 2012 that is not allowed…

that segues into 2011 to reinforce the point about how his competition in 2012 was extremely lack luster, easy pickins., LeBron was still floundering in his second finals at age 26 so how can we expect the thunder’s core to produce at a high level when it was only their first appearance on the big show at a mere 22 and 23 years old.

[ShawkFactory]

no no. it started as young lebron and how he gets a pass for 07 due to age and lack of experience. but when you apply the same criteria to his opposition in 2012 that is not allowed…

that segues into 2011 to reinforce the point about how his competition in 2012 was extremely lack luster, easy pickins., LeBron was still floundering in his second finals at age 26 so how can we expect the thunder’s core to produce at a high level when it was only their first appearance on the big show at a mere 22 and 23 years old.

I suppose if you really want it to.

[ILLsmak]

Letting Amare go off like that was definitely not in the spurs game plan. Shawn Marion was the weak link with his awful spacing, shooting, scoring, and passing. The suns probably would've won with a PJ Tucker or Robert covington type in his place. Anybody that could shoot a jumper and play defense.

Yeah, it's easy to say that when you win. I honestly do think that's a slight mark on TD. It's true that it doesn't matter, but man to man, you know TD wished he could have done more. Amare was nuts, though. Those suns were nuts, too. They probably deserved a ring at some point during the time they were re-defining the NBA. I think their offense was more exciting than even GSW. The NBA wasn't ready to accept it yet, though.

Edit: nobody thought OKC had a chance in 2012 lool.

-Smak

[paksat]

anyone that seen him in the 2004 olympics knew he wasn't an all time great. I understand they were calling fouls generously, but you're supposedly a top 3 player in the entire world.

disgrace

[ShawkFactory]

anyone that seen him in the 2004 olympics knew he wasn't an all time great. I understand they were calling fouls generously, but you're supposedly a top 3 player in the entire world.

disgrace

So a handful of Olympic games on a poorly constructed team with a coach he did not vibe with at all matters more than the 1600 or so games he played in the NBA? Got it.

[SouBeachTalents]

So a handful of Olympic games on a poorly constructed team with a coach he did not vibe with at all matters more than the 1600 or so games he played in the NBA? Got it.
Fool proof logic.

[paksat]

So a handful of Olympic games on a poorly constructed team with a coach he did not vibe with at all matters more than the 1600 or so games he played in the NBA? Got it.

what's his stats for that tournament?

[3ba11]

So a handful of Olympic games and the 2011 Finals and the 2010 ECSF and the 2007 Finals and the 2005 lottery season with an all-star teammate and the 2019 season with "playoff mode" and the 2023 sweep to Denver despite talent edge and 2021 loss as preseason favorite and 2009 loss as favorite and 2008 locked up by Celtics in playoffs and record loss to fossil Duncan

Got it.


fixed

Lebron is simply a loser by virtue of all his losing

[ShawkFactory]

what's his stats for that tournament?

I don't know. My argument that the tournament doesn't matter still stands.

[3ba11]

My argument that the tournament doesn't matter still stands.


But the 2007 Finals mattered (locked up)

the 2008 ECSF mattered (locked up)

the 2009 ECF mattered (upset)

the 2010 ECSF mattered (upset)

the 2011 Finals mattered (choke)

the 2014 Finals mattered (record loss to 37-year old)

the 2017 Finals mattered (record loss with super-team)

the 2019 season mattered (lottery with Ingram)

the 2005 season mattered (lottery with all-star teammate)


Lebron is simply a loser by virtue of his record losses and record losing championship record

[paksat]

I don't know. My argument that the tournament doesn't matter still stands.

maybe i put it a little harsh

all time great to me is a top 10 player, someone that should scare the sh*t out of you playing versus.

the guy was supposed to be some all time can't miss player, but watching those 04 olympics you never got that feeling at all. I expected shaq, jordan type stuff out of him. Not the first team since using pro's to go on to not win a gold.

it made it very clear that he wasn't some guy that you just dump the ball down to and get the hell out of the way. The same flack so many people send towards kevin garnett, duncan should have gotten all kinds of it.

[ShawkFactory]

But the 2007 Finals mattered (locked up)

the 2008 ECSF mattered (locked up)

the 2009 ECF mattered (upset)

the 2010 ECSF mattered (upset)

the 2011 Finals mattered (choke)

the 2014 Finals mattered (record loss to 37-year old)

the 2017 Finals mattered (record loss with super-team)

the 2019 season mattered (lottery with Ingram)

the 2005 season mattered (lottery with all-star teammate)


Lebron is simply a loser by virtue of his record losses and record losing championship record

You're literally like a puppy who needs to go outside to piss right now. Here's your treat. Good boy.

[ShawkFactory]

maybe i put it a little harsh

all time great to me is a top 10 player, someone that should scare the sh*t out of you playing versus.

the guy was supposed to be some all time can't miss player, but watching those 04 olympics you never got that feeling at all. I expected shaq, jordan type stuff out of him. Not the first team since using pro's to go on to not win a gold.

it made it very clear that he wasn't some guy that you just dump the ball down to and get the hell out of the way. The same flack so many people send towards kevin garnett, duncan should have gotten all kinds of it.

I would agree that that's the criteria. The Spurs from 03-07 or so when Duncan was truly in his prime was not fun. It wasn't flashy but you were going to lose the battle.

The way you talk about Duncan though makes me think that you didn't watch the Spurs much before Parker and Manu ascended. From 99-03 the Spurs offense was dribble and see what happens but then give Duncan the ball. He won 2 championships and 2 MVPs doing that.

[3ba11]

You're literally like a puppy who needs to go outside to piss right now. Here's your treat. Good boy.


have some dignity and self-respect

[ShawkFactory]

have some dignity and self-respect

You steal my words as your make an Amare/Duncan thread about Lebron to desperately get my attention. Yikes.

[3ba11]

From 99-03 the Spurs offense was dribble and see what happens but then give Duncan the ball. He won 2 championships and 2 MVPs doing that.


Post offense was considered a good brand of ball just like 3-pointers today

So when Duncan was dominating and carrying the load, it was still a good brand of ball that could beat top teams..

Otoh, Lebron is too ball-dominant at carry-job volume, so he loses to Orlando and needs great scoring help to beat top teams..

Unlike Duncan or Jordan, Lebron can't beat Finals teams or top 5 SRS teams with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick... And unlike Jordan, Kobe, Duncan or Curry, Lebron needs franchise players at sidekick that can match him in scoring - he can't carry the scoring load like those guys (insufficient brand to beat top teams)..

So Lebron is vastly inferior compared to these guys and also other guys that could win much more with much less

[ShawkFactory]

Post offense was considered a good brand of ball just like 3-pointers today

So when Duncan was dominating and carrying the load, it was still a good brand of ball that could beat top teams..



Agreed.

[3ba11]

Agreed.


What about when Lebron tries to carry the load like his 38 ppg ball-domination against the injured Magic?

Why didn't that work?

And don't cite Mo Williams because Duncan and Jordan won with less from their sidekick and worse team defenses

The reality is that Lebron is too ball-dominant at carry-job volume, so he needs franchise guys that can match his scoring (Wade, Kyrie, AD)... supplementary guys like parker, klay, mo or pippen aren't enough help for bron because his brand of ball is insufficient at carry-job volume to beat top teams.

[rmt]

anyone that seen him in the 2004 olympics knew he wasn't an all time great. I understand they were calling fouls generously, but you're supposedly a top 3 player in the entire world.

disgrace

I see some referencing the inexperience of Lebron in 2007 Finals or the youth/inexperience of OKC in 2012 Finals. How about the youth and inexperience of the 2004 US Olympic team? I'd like to know what you expect a defense first coach like Larry Brown to do with these rookies/inexperienced players and "defensive studs/team players"(sarcasm) like Allen Iverson and Stephon Marbury?

Lebron James 19
Carmelo Anthony 20
Amare Stoudemire 21
Emeka Okafor 21
Dwayne Wade 22
Carlos Boozer 22
Lamar Odom 24
Richard Jefferson 24
Shawn Marion 26

I guess you expect Duncan to carry them to Olympic gold like he carried the Spurs to a ring the year before. Sorry, no such miracle with this lot - especially not against a well-oiled team used to playing with each other like the Argentinians. A better constructed team might have helped - like a Ray Allen or anyone who could shoot from distance.

[3ba11]

I see some referencing the inexperience of Lebron in 2007 Finals or the youth/inexperience of OKC in 2012 Finals. How about the youth and inexperience of the 2004 US Olympic team? I'd like to know what you expect a defense first coach like Larry Brown to do with these rookies/inexperienced players and "defensive studs/team players"(sarcasm) like Allen Iverson and Stephon Marbury?

Lebron James 19
Carmelo Anthony 20
Amare Stoudemire 21
Emeka Okafor 21
Dwayne Wade 22
Carlos Boozer 22
Lamar Odom 24
Richard Jefferson 24
Shawn Marion 26

I guess you expect Duncan to carry them to Olympic gold like he carried the Spurs to a ring the year before. Sorry, no such miracle with this lot - especially not against a well-oiled team used to playing with each other like the Argentinians. A better constructed team might have helped - like a Ray Allen or anyone who could shoot from distance.


2003 began the ball-dominance era because Wade, Lebron, and Melo entered the league, while D'Antoni/Nash showed the league the right format for ball-domination..

This ball-dominant format has been underachieving internationally ever since.. Didn't France just beat us in the 2020 Olympics?.. Evan Fournier was beating the breaks off the US due to superior brand of ball (not superior talent)

[paksat]

I see some referencing the inexperience of Lebron in 2007 Finals or the youth/inexperience of OKC in 2012 Finals. How about the youth and inexperience of the 2004 US Olympic team? I'd like to know what you expect a defense first coach like Larry Brown to do with these rookies/inexperienced players and "defensive studs/team players"(sarcasm) like Allen Iverson and Stephon Marbury?

Lebron James 19
Carmelo Anthony 20
Amare Stoudemire 21
Emeka Okafor 21
Dwayne Wade 22
Carlos Boozer 22
Lamar Odom 24
Richard Jefferson 24
Shawn Marion 26

I guess you expect Duncan to carry them to Olympic gold like he carried the Spurs to a ring the year before. Sorry, no such miracle with this lot - especially not against a well-oiled team used to playing with each other like the Argentinians. A better constructed team might have helped - like a Ray Allen or anyone who could shoot from distance.

zero excuses for scoring 12 ppg and getting 4 rebounds