The greatness of Grant Hill

[RogueBorg]

pre-injury. If you never got to see to see Grant Hill before 2000 you missed out on an amazing player. One of my favorite players to watch. I still wonder "what-if" he wasn't injured coming to Orlando to play with prime TMac. Great player.


https://youtu.be/bbsy118edw4

[Kblaze8855]

I wonder how often Doc Rivers thinks about costing that magic team Tim Duncan by telling his wife she wasn’t allowed on the team plane when they were already house shopping to come to Orlando with Grant and TMAC.

anyway, yes, he was great and the numbers fall far short of showing it so he will likely never get credit for how good he was to people who didn’t see it. And even a lot of people who did don’t realize how much she held back attacking to be more of a team player. The way he could just walk past defenders even when they played several feet off him anticipating it you couldn’t put him in a league that was both iso focused and had spaced floors like today. if you could get him to be selfish enough, he would be a comfortable 30/10 point forward but he probably shoots 58%. The midpoint between a non 3 point spamming Harden and Giannis.

[PeroAntic]

He was like Pippen but a worse shooter.

[RogueBorg]

I wonder how often Doc Rivers thinks about costing that magic team Tim Duncan by telling his wife she wasn’t allowed on the team plane when they were already house shopping to come to Orlando with Grant and TMAC.


I forgot about that LOL. They pulled out the red carpet for Duncan and then did that to him SMH.

Anyway, LeBron was the evolutionary next step from Pippen and Grant. Just amazing.

[Phoenix]

Grant's floor game was a lot smoother than both Lebron and Pip. Didn't have Lebron's physicality of course. We were robbed of seeing him and Penny go at it for a decade.

[RogueBorg]

We were robbed of seeing him and Penny go at it for a decade.

Yup, he's another one of those "If you never got to see him you missed out on his greatness."

[90sgoat]

I think one thing that might not get Hill the recognition he deserves is the era he played in and the bad team he played on.

His best seasons are not completely stellar 26/7/5, but that was in the late grind it out 90s.

Lets compare it to today.

He was 3rd in scoring, 39th in rebound and 21st in assist.

If that was last season, he'd have averaged:

32 / 7 / 6

So yeah, that's basically a better Jason Tatum.

And what I remember with Hill was mostly his scoring, sure he could pass, but he was a very talented and very strong slasher with a decent shot.

Today, he might possibly play the PF.

[Phoenix]

I think one thing that might not get Hill the recognition he deserves is the era he played in and the bad team he played on.

His best seasons are not completely stellar 26/7/5, but that was in the late grind it out 90s.

Lets compare it to today.

He was 3rd in scoring, 39th in rebound and 21st in assist.

If that was last season, he'd have averaged:

32 / 7 / 6

So yeah, that's basically a better Jason Tatum.

And what I remember with Hill was mostly his scoring, sure he could pass, but he was a very talented and very strong slasher with a decent shot.

Today, he might possibly play the PF.

Those numbers are only pedestrian by the standards of the 60s or today game which was/is built for cartoon numbers. If you gave Grant the usage rate of James Harden or Luka his numbers would be similarly off the charts. He'd be flirting with triple double seasons yearly and I'm sure he'd have a couple under his belt.

[Baller234]

When Jordan came into the league, the other players at his position began to look primitive by comparison. He was so quick, so fluid... it was like he moved different.

That was Grant Hill, he moved different. Just had insane quickness was able to dart by whoever was guarding him. His jab and go was so quick it looked like a glitch in animation.

[SouBeachTalents]

The one thing I find curious about Hill is why he escaped all criticism of never winning a playoff series in his prime. That literally came to define McGrady's career, yet I bet the majority of NBA fans wouldn't even know Hill failed to get out of the first round until he was way past his prime like McGrady did. It's not like these guys played eras apart either, they were teammates at one point :lol

[Phoenix]

The one thing I find curious about Hill is why he escaped all criticism of never winning a playoff series in his prime. That literally came to define McGrady's career, yet I bet the majority of NBA fans wouldn't even know Hill failed to get out of the first round until he was way past his prime like McGrady did. It's not like these guys played eras apart either, they were teammates at one point :lol

I never understood that either. Grant was generally carrying average casts and losing to teams he should have lost to, which pretty much sums up Tmac's Orlando/Houston career. I wonder if it's because Tmac had a couple of 3-1 leads and ended up losing, so that gave him the perception of being a choker?

[iamgine]

Grant Hill would be among the Lillard/Shai/Durant/Tatum level today. Not quite MVP but still a superstar.

[Kblaze8855]

Grant Hill would be among the Lillard/Shai/Durant/Tatum level today. Not quite MVP but still a superstar.

Id say there are five currently active players, who have won MVP you could argue grant hill was as good ass or better than.

[JohnMax]

Pippen was a top two scorer, top two defender, top two rebounder, and top two distributor on six championship teams, and he nearly led a Jordan-less Bulls team past the Knicks and most likely would have made it to the finals. Grant Hill was a great talent and was quite similar to Pippen in many ways, but what Pippen accomplished in the playoffs year in and year out puts him way the hell over G-Hill. Nevertheless, G-Hill WAS a great talent and was something of the natural evolution of the point-forward position that Pippen really helped pioneer and which has led to the likes of Lebron and so many other point-forwards in the game today. Pippen's contribution to the game is overlooked imo.

[ShawkFactory]

Id say there are five currently active players, who have won MVP you could argue grant hill was as good ass or better than.

Outside of Westbrook, Rose, and Harden who you got? Embiid?

As good as he was, it would be a tough sell to convince people he was on the same level as Lebron, KD, Curry, Giannis, or Jokic.

[Phoenix]

Id say there are five currently active players, who have won MVP you could argue grant hill was as good ass or better than.

Curious to see that list.

[90sgoat]

When Jordan came into the league, the other players at his position began to look primitive by comparison. He was so quick, so fluid... it was like he moved different.

That was Grant Hill, he moved different. Just had insane quickness was able to dart by whoever was guarding him. His jab and go was so quick it looked like a glitch in animation.

Yes that's true.

He had that very explosive first step that kind of reminded you of Jordan. Didn't need a lot of dribbling, just exploding to the hoop. Pippen could do that too. Hill was a better Pippen offensively.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_KT5CM24lg

[90sgoat]

I never understood that either. Grant was generally carrying average casts and losing to teams he should have lost to, which pretty much sums up Tmac's Orlando/Houston career. I wonder if it's because Tmac had a couple of 3-1 leads and ended up losing, so that gave him the perception of being a choker?

T-Mac played a more ball dominant style, so he got more glory and more responsibility.

[RogueBorg]

Yes that's true.

He had that very explosive first step that kind of reminded you of Jordan. Didn't need a lot of dribbling, just exploding to the hoop. Pippen could do that too. Hill was a better Pippen offensively.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_KT5CM24lg

Man, he got Mourning and Mutombo in that video :roll:

[90sgoat]

Man, he got Mourning and Mutombo in that video :roll:

Yeah and look at 0:56, it's pretty much a repeat of MJ doing the baseline spin and dunking on Ewing(?). Just Hill does the spin on Majerle and then dunks on Oliver Miller, which is not quite as impressive.

[Kblaze8855]

Outside of Westbrook, Rose, and Harden who you got? Embiid?

As good as he was, it would be a tough sell to convince people he was on the same level as Lebron, KD, Curry, Giannis, or Jokic.


this is one of those things where if I explain it even some players who posters often think I’m a massive fan of will have people saying I hate them for doing the “Well…on the same floor” and “Basketball is not your accomplishments” thing and talking about league differences. Suffice it to say….he wasn’t playing in conditions required or a situation amenable to doing some of the things I’m fairly sure he could have done in the situation some of these others have landed in.

The effortless drives he made past prepared backed off defenders into paints crowded with multiple bigs there to prevent it? If you guard him the way they make you guard wings now…with a stretch 5 pulling the other center out of the lane….

Grant hill could get to the basket like AI or Wade but at a Tatumish size. And you just let him take an extra step so he can run to the rim like Giannis?

and with his play making?

There is very little anyone could do. I don’t see a coach not making him force the issue. Left to his own style he might not be as good as I’m thinking…but a coach would probably force it on him like Dantoni did Harden.

[Phoenix]

T-Mac played a more ball dominant style, so he got more glory and more responsibility.

I'm not sure how much that really played into it. Grant still was the unquestioned best player, scorer, rebounder, passer on the team. Take a year like 97 where he lead the team in points, rebounds, assists, and steals. Frankly Grant probably had a little better roster to work with than, say, the 03 Magic.

[tpols]

He was like Pippen but a worse shooter.

Better talent than pippen. Smoother in every ŵay. Pippens shooting was bottom of the barrel so I'm not sure that statement is possible for anybody let alone grant hill.

[Baller234]

Yes that's true.

He had that very explosive first step that kind of reminded you of Jordan. Didn't need a lot of dribbling, just exploding to the hoop. Pippen could do that too. Hill was a better Pippen offensively.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_KT5CM24lg

Check the crossover on Pippen at 1:35.

Ridiculous.

[Kblaze8855]

Better talent than pippen. Smoother in every ŵay. Pippens shooting was bottom of the barrel so I'm not sure that statement is possible for anybody let alone grant hill.

That’s just you being too young to realize what the league they played in was. There were people considered good scorers who might not make a three an entire season. Grant Hill was one of them. Pippen was nowhere close to the bottom of the league as a shooter. Half the league wouldn’t shoot outside if you backed off 10 feet. They would drive into you anyway. Pippen was making transition threes off the dribble.

He wasn’t a good shooter the way we judge it now but he was absolutely not bottom off the barrel in his prime. There were years he made more threes than Dan Majerle and on a higher percentage. He was a middle of the pack shooter in his prime with some good years.

Scottie did more outside and grant deep into his career was better pulling up when he got you on your heels. Better depends on what you’re asking for. Shooting wise I mean.

Grant was a better player to be a first option.

[Baller234]

Pippen was a top two scorer, top two defender, top two rebounder, and top two distributor on six championship teams, and he nearly led a Jordan-less Bulls team past the Knicks and most likely would have made it to the finals. Grant Hill was a great talent and was quite similar to Pippen in many ways, but what Pippen accomplished in the playoffs year in and year out puts him way the hell over G-Hill. Nevertheless, G-Hill WAS a great talent and was something of the natural evolution of the point-forward position that Pippen really helped pioneer and which has led to the likes of Lebron and so many other point-forwards in the game today. Pippen's contribution to the game is overlooked imo.

Nah I can't put Pippen above him. I know he had the better career by far but I'm sorry Grant Hill was the better player and I'm picking him for my team.

Don't forget Grant was a 2x NCAA champion, so he was great out the gate. He got drafted to a bottom feeding franchise at the time so he couldn't lean on another superstar. Pippen played great defense but guess what everyone on that Bulls team played great defense. If Grant Hill plays with Jordan, he also plays great defense. Then you factor in what he brings to the table offensively, plus the fact that he's not a whiny bitch.

I'm not saying the gap is huge, but in real time I don't think anyone thought Pippen was better.

[RogueBorg]

Nah I can't put Pippen above him. I know he had the better career by far but I'm sorry Grant Hill was the better player and I'm picking him for my team.

Don't forget Grant was a 2x NCAA champion, so he was great out the gate. He got drafted to a bottom feeding franchise at the time so he couldn't lean on another superstar. Pippen played great defense but guess what everyone on that Bulls team played great defense. If Grant Hill plays with Jordan, he also plays great defense. Then you factor in what he brings to the table offensively, plus the fact that he's not a whiny bitch.

I'm not saying the gap is huge, but in real time I don't think anyone thought Pippen was better.

Good points. Hill was the main focus of the offense, Pippen wasn't. Back then, I thought Hill was the better player. This isn't a knock-on Scottie, he's one of my favorite players. This is about Grant Hill's greatness.

[Baller234]

Good points. Hill was the main focus of the offense, Pippen wasn't. Back then, I thought Hill was the better player. This isn't a knock-on Scottie, he's one of my favorite players. This is about Grant Hill's greatness.

Grant Hill & Penny Hardaway were supposed to be the transformative players of that generation after Jordan.

Fu*king shame.

[Lebron23]

Grant Hill was a terrible playoffs performer and that was the reason why the Pistons failed to advance in the 2nd round of the playoffs

He could have been a good 2nd option to a Prime Shaq.

[ShawkFactory]

Good points. Hill was the main focus of the offense, Pippen wasn't. Back then, I thought Hill was the better player. This isn't a knock-on Scottie, he's one of my favorite players. This is about Grant Hill's greatness.

Yea I think Blaze is right there. Hill would have been better as a first option but playing alongside a first option you probably pick Pippen with the things he did.

[ArbitraryWater]

The one thing I find curious about Hill is why he escaped all criticism of never winning a playoff series in his prime. That literally came to define McGrady's career, yet I bet the majority of NBA fans wouldn't even know Hill failed to get out of the first round until he was way past his prime like McGrady did. It's not like these guys played eras apart either, they were teammates at one point :lol

prob cause no one really cares about him to begin with and he doesnt get mentioned in all time rankings

[Baller234]

prob cause no one really cares about him to begin with and he doesnt get mentioned in all time rankings

Hill's prime was what, 3-4 years tops before getting injured? Who was his best teammate during that time?

T-Mac's prime was about 5-7 years depending on whether or not you count the last few years where had back issues, but he also played with Yao during this time.

[Phoenix]

Good points. Hill was the main focus of the offense, Pippen wasn't. Back then, I thought Hill was the better player. This isn't a knock-on Scottie, he's one of my favorite players. This is about Grant Hill's greatness.

By 97 I would say Grant had passed Pip, but that's because he was ascending and Pip I think had already passed his peak. Albeit he was 32 in 97, but 32 then isnt 32 now. Scottie's last true 'prime/peak' year was like the first 2/3 of the 96 season before he got injured somewhere in there. 97 Bulls ( and probably yours) memory may be better than me on the front, but 96 Pippen was balling out the gate, a carry over from his 94 and 95 seasons.

But yeah, by 97 Grant was something. Walking triple double machine. Dude was putting up 9-10 rebounds in a league where bigs were still playing like bigs.

[90sgoat]

Another thing is that Hill was groomed to be the new face of the league for when MJ retired.

He was a clean cut guy, did a lot of charity and was articulated and polite. The league saw what was coming already in the early 90s with Jalen Rose and Chris Webber and did a wise choice to promote Hill and Kidd. In the case of J-Kidd, also an articulate lightskin, who unfortunately ended up in some darkskin drama with Tony Braxton.

In any case, Hill was big time with the fans in the mid to late 90s.

Of course the younger fans liked Shaq and Penny was huge, but Hill was probably the most popular. Then came Kobe and became an instant hit. My first jersey was Kobe 8. Overall the league were lucky to get Kobe, the closest thing to MJ and if not for that ho making allegations, he was the kind of black star that most of America could get behind.

Unfortunately for the league, Kobe wanted that pawg **** too much and the rest is history and the league had to latch on to Lebron.

If Kobe had not attempted backdoor burglary, then we would have been spared for the Lebron agenda. The world works in mysterious ways.

[tpols]

That’s just you being too young to realize what the league they played in was. There were people considered good scorers who might not make a three an entire season. Grant Hill was one of them. Pippen was nowhere close to the bottom of the league as a shooter. Half the league wouldn’t shoot outside if you backed off 10 feet. They would drive into you anyway. Pippen was making transition threes off the dribble.

He wasn’t a good shooter the way we judge it now but he was absolutely not bottom off the barrel in his prime. There were years he made more threes than Dan Majerle and on a higher percentage. He was a middle of the pack shooter in his prime with some good years.

Scottie did more outside and grant deep into his career was better pulling up when he got you on your heels. Better depends on what you’re asking for. Shooting wise I mean.

Grant was a better player to be a first option.

Maybe you're looking at regular season and not playoffs... but...

Nah... pippen shot like shit for the whole 2nd 3peat, in the '93 Finals, and in the '92 eastern conference playoffs. He was ass as a shooter. His jumper in the half court playoffs was obviously broke.

[Kblaze8855]

I am looking at basketball. Having watched his entire career and the entire career of a lot of people who couldn’t shoot period. You aren’t as good as your percentage for a week and a half. You aren’t good when you’re good for 5 games nor are you bad after 5. You take thousands of shots and that’s what you are. You aren’t what you were in April 94 or or may 01.

And even if you were…like I said you just don’t know the context. There were people who did not shoot….at ALL. Star guards who make 12 3s a season. People who would drive into a contested layup instead of a conceded 16 footer. No bottom of the barrel shooter made 100 threes in those days. Scottie was over 150. There were years Reggie made 120.

As I said he wasn’t a good shooter the way we see it now. He was at times the most likely player on the floor to hit a 3 at the time. Far more likely than Grant Hill. But worse off the dribble pulling up.

[90sgoat]

Didn't Phil say he was a "sometimes shooter"?

That he was streaky basically.

I think for the 90s, I remember him as taking an above average number of 3 pointers and being above average at them, but that's just the feel I got back then. The most important is that he was a scoring threat from deep, so you had to cover him, which freed up MJ in the post.

Overall I remember Pippen as a very allround scorer, he could play in the post too at quite a high level and was absolutely deadly in the open floor. Not a midrange shooter.

Honestly Pip was an exciting player to watch.

[tpols]

You take thousands of shots and that’s what you are. You aren’t what you were in April 94 or or may 01.


I don't agree with that at all when comparing great players to other great players. Obviously the playoffs matter more.

If Pippen shot like shit in the playoffs for the vast majority of his career that matters when comparing him to similar talents. And mind you... he did it while having the GOAT to distract defensive attention.

I'm looking at Grant Hills career playoff numbers and he was a way more efficient shooter and scorer than Pippen. He didn't take 3s because it wasnt customary then but he shot well from the floor.

Meanwhile pippen was shooting like dog shit for 4 or 5 of his rings and having way more defensive attention diverted from him.

There's no doubt watching the film and seeing their productions and applying context that Grant Hill was the better player. The winning spotlight playing next to MJ simply made casuals think pippen was better.

But he wasnt.

[Kblaze8855]

When Pippen shoots 39% on over 3 attempts a game(a lot at the time) in the 89 playoffs over 17 games does that mean when I talk about young Pippen I’m supposed to believe he was a knockdown shooter at the time?

The way people get on the Internet and start with this “In the playoffs…” shit to measure skill sets…..

Playing two or three teams with two or three game plans does not determine if you can shoot or not. You are what you routinely are at the time. Scottie shooting 38 percent from 3 in the finals vs Utah but 24% in the first round vs the Bullets doesn’t mean any fairytale bullshit like he just locked in win the stakes were highest. It just means he shot 38 percent in the finals.

teams are different. Teams play different styles of defense. Players play different roles depending on the game plan. You are not what you shot versus the spurs and Memphis over 11 games. You are as good a shooter as you are vs the nba. Vs the teams that go over and under screens. Vs teams that double the post and ignore you and vs teams that play straight up. Vs teams that will oblige your desire to run back and forth knowing you thrive in transition and vs teams that make you grind it out and take late clock bad shots because they slow you down coming up the court and getting into your offense.

Matchup, game plan, and even things like a brief sprain have a drastic impact on your playoff numbers while not being issues of your skill in a vacuum which is why playoff numbers are so all over the place. People forcing the issue playing 46 minutes, searching for their shot uncharacteristically trying to claw back or prevent the comeback. People playing in unusual lineups with tighter rotations. One series the other team switches everything and the next you have a whole other look. You might be given shots to deny them elsewhere. Might be taken off the ball next round.

Whatever additional importance the playoffs have the incredibly reduced sample size each year alone makes it impossible to judge abstract skills at a glance at numbers. Reliable and clutch shooters have had epic runs of terrible shooting. Sometimes they happen in May. Sometimes December. If it happens in may they aren’t suddenly bad shooters.

You are what you are even if coach says we have to double off you because there’s a bigger threat in the post so you get an abnormal number of clean looks for a week. You’re the same person you are if that guy gets traded and now you’re stuck, taking contested shots off the dribble.

What scottie Pippen was is a middle of the pack shooter, who for years at a time might be better than that or worse. What he wasn’t…is bottom of the barrel. You just don’t know how the people who were played….because you don’t remember the 90s.

[Phoenix]

Scottie's shooting didn't really stick out to me as 'bad' among the small forwards of his era unless you were comparing him to the likes of Glen Rice or Chris Mullin. Big Dog too I guess. Frankly, when you look at it in context there weren't a ton of memorable small forwards in the 90s in general, certainly not ones you'd label as 'shooters'. Now compare it to the 80s when you had Bird, Dr. J, King, Nique, Worthy, English, Dantley, Aquirre, Kiki, Ellis all balling at the same time. The only 90s SF 'shooter' of that caliber is probably Rice and Mullin. Your 90's 'marksmen' scorers were mostly guys like the immediately aforementioned, Price, Reggie, Richmond, Stockton when he felt like shooting, and a few other names I'm probably forgetting.

[Phoenix]

Another thing is that Hill was groomed to be the new face of the league for when MJ retired.

He was a clean cut guy, did a lot of charity and was articulated and polite. The league saw what was coming already in the early 90s with Jalen Rose and Chris Webber and did a wise choice to promote Hill and Kidd. In the case of J-Kidd, also an articulate lightskin, who unfortunately ended up in some darkskin drama with Tony Braxton.

In any case, Hill was big time with the fans in the mid to late 90s.

Of course the younger fans liked Shaq and Penny was huge, but Hill was probably the most popular. Then came Kobe and became an instant hit. My first jersey was Kobe 8. Overall the league were lucky to get Kobe, the closest thing to MJ and if not for that ho making allegations, he was the kind of black star that most of America could get behind.

Unfortunately for the league, Kobe wanted that pawg **** too much and the rest is history and the league had to latch on to Lebron.

If Kobe had not attempted backdoor burglary, then we would have been spared for the Lebron agenda. The world works in mysterious ways.

Don't forget for a time that Vince Carter between like 99 and 2002 was running neck and neck with Kobe for that 'air apparent' title. Same school, similar height and size, flair, aerial game, clean cut personality as MJ. And didn't have to share the spotlight with someone like Kobe did in LA.

[Kblaze8855]

Scottie's shooting didn't really stick out to me as 'bad' among the small forwards of his era unless you were comparing him to the likes of Glen Rice or Chris Mullin. Big Dog too I guess. Frankly, when you look at it in context there weren't a ton of memorable small forwards in the 90s in general, certainly not ones you'd label as 'shooters'. Now compare it to the 80s when you had Bird, Dr. J, King, Nique, Worthy, English, Dantley, Aquirre, Kiki, Ellis all balling at the same time. The only 90s SF 'shooter' of that caliber is probably Rice and Mullin. Your 90's 'marksmen' scorers were guys like the immediately aforementioned, Price, Reggie, Richmond


Of course it didn’t stand out as bad at the time because it wasn’t. Let’s just pull from the rest of the central division alone in his prime. The other small forwards?

Stacey Augmon who made 12 threes in his career.

Derek Mckey with his career high of 40. 9 the season in question.

Bobby Phills/Chris Mills who combined for 39 threes that whole season.

David Wingate who made 11 threes total from 1989 to 1995

Blue Edwards who made 38 that year

Sean Elliot that one Pistons year. Made 26 threes on 30% shooting.


The only people who think Scottie was some bottom of the league shooter in the 90s are people who don’t remember 90s basketball. There were entire teams that couldn’t or didn’t shoot outside.

Scottie was unusual in his willingness to just pull-up off the dribble in transition. People would get benched for taking some of the shots he was most known for. He was a bad shooter by the standards of today when everyone his size is expected to be a shooter. For the game he was playing? He had an unusually refined guard skill set for a forward, and that includes both his ability and willingness to shoot.

He wasn’t some top shooter. And a lot of the top shooters didn’t shoot outside either. But you just can’t put him at the bottom of a league full of wings who wouldn’t take an open jumper unless the clock was winding down.

[RogueBorg]

The only 90s SF 'shooter' of that caliber is probably Rice and Mullin. Your 90's 'marksmen' scorers were mostly guys like the immediately aforementioned, Price, Reggie, Richmond, Stockton when he felt like shooting, and a few other names I'm probably forgetting.

"3-D" Dennis Scott was also a pure 3-point shooting SF in that time along with Mullin and Rice. You're right though, there weren't many yet. He wasn't a SF and he's almost never metioned by anyone but Hersey Hawkins was a great shooter. Not good enough to be a perennial All-Star but man he could shoot.

[RogueBorg]

Another name just creeped into my head;

Chuck Person

[Phoenix]

"3-D" Dennis Scott was also a pure 3-point shooting SF in that time along with Mullin and Rice. You're right though, there weren't many yet. He wasn't a SF and he's almost never metioned by anyone but Hersey Hawkins was a great shooter. Not good enough to be a perennial All-Star but man he could shoot.

Forgot 3-D. Good call....Hawkins too.

[Phoenix]

Of course it didn’t stand out as bad at the time because it wasn’t. Let’s just pull from the rest of the central division alone in his prime. The other small forwards?

Stacey Augmon who made 12 threes in his career.

Derek Mckey with his career high of 40. 9 the season in question.

Bobby Phills/Chris Mills who combined for 39 threes that whole season.

David Wingate who made 11 threes total from 1989 to 1995

Blue Edwards who made 38 that year

Sean Elliot that one Pistons year. Made 26 threes on 30% shooting.


The only people who think Scottie was some bottom of the league shooter in the 90s are people who don’t remember 90s basketball. There were entire teams that couldn’t or didn’t shoot outside.

Scottie was unusual in his willingness to just pull-up off the dribble in transition. People would get benched for taking some of the shots he was most known for. He was a bad shooter by the standards of today when everyone his size is expected to be a shooter. For the game he was playing? He had an unusually refined guard skill set for a forward, and that includes both his ability and willingness to shoot.

He wasn’t some top shooter. And a lot of the top shooters didn’t shoot outside either. But you just can’t put him at the bottom of a league full of wings who wouldn’t take an open jumper unless the clock was winding down.

That's pretty much what I'm saying. Bad by what standards? Bird? Rice? Mullin? Ellis? Those are all-timers. The list of small forwards in the 90s good enough at shooting to make Scottie 'bad' comparatively is small. And half of that list peaked in the 80s before he was either playing or relevant.

[tpols]

That's pretty much what I'm saying. Bad by what standards? Bird? Rice? Mullin? Ellis? Those are all-timers. The list of small forwards in the 90s good enough at shooting to make Scottie 'bad' comparatively is small. And half of that list peaked in the 80s before he was either playing or relevant.

See... you guys are trolling by even mentioning pippens name in that realm of sharp shooters.

I responded to a post that said grant hill is pippen without the shooting. You understand me?

Pippens shooting ain't shit so I took issue with that. And it's again certifiable that he was a poor jumpshooter and scorer in most of his playoff runs.

[90sgoat]

Don't forget for a time that Vince Carter between like 99 and 2002 was running neck and neck with Kobe for that 'air apparent' title. Same school, similar height and size, flair, aerial game, clean cut personality as MJ. And didn't have to share the spotlight with someone like Kobe did in LA.

That's true, Vince had some serious hype, but people quickly figured out he wasn't a leader.

[Phoenix]

See... you guys are trolling by even mentioning pippens name in that realm of sharp shooters.

I responded to a post that said grant hill is pippen without the shooting. You understand me?

Pippens shooting ain't shit so I took issue with that. And it's again certifiable that he was a poor jumpshooter and scorer in most of his playoff runs.

I didn't say Pippen's name warrants being mentioned with those guys as shooters. If you're going to say he's a 'bad shooter'.....at his position....in the era he played.....it would be against the standards of the guys I listed, and not by the standards of most other SFs of that time period.

Clearly that's what my comment indicated, not that Pippen as a shooter was comparable to those guys :facepalm. And I'm sure you know that, but as usual you twist the comment into something else to create an argument nobody was making. No-one reasonable would have read my comment and took what you did from it.

Neither Pippen or Grant Hill are 'shooters' to the degree that anyone should be spending any amount of time picking out the weeds between their respective prowess. You understand me?

[ShawkFactory]

I didn't say Pippen's name warrants being mentioned with those guys as shooters. If you're going to say he's a 'bad shooter'.....at his position....in the era he played.....it would be against the standards of the guys I listed, and not by the standards of most other SFs of that time period.

Clearly that's what my comment indicated, not that Pippen as a shooter was comparable to those guys :facepalm. And I'm sure you know that, but as usual you twist the comment into something else to create an argument nobody was making. No-one reasonable would have read my comment and took what you did from it.

Neither Pippen or Grant Hill are 'shooters' to the degree that anyone should be spending any amount of time picking out the weeds between their respective prowess. You understand me?

The Tpols Special.

[97 bulls]

pre-injury. If you never got to see to see Grant Hill before 2000 you missed out on an amazing player. One of my favorite players to watch. I still wonder "what-if" he wasn't injured coming to Orlando to play with prime TMac. Great player.


https://youtu.be/bbsy118edw4

1st of all, the first play in the video was a travel.

2nd, Hill did not lead Pippen in points, rbds, assists, etc as Ernie Johnson stated.
Pippens career averages
16.1, 6.4, 5.2 on 47% 32% on 3s, 70%fts, 50%efg

Hills career averages
16.7, 6, 4.1, 48%, 31% on 3s, 76%fts, and 49%efg

And Pippen blows Hill out of the water on defense

Head to head. Hill finished with a slight lead in points and rebounds, Pippen led in assists, steals and blocks.

Their record against each other is 12-2 in Pippens favor.

The Pippen/Hill comparison is a prime example of hating on Pippen. Granted, Hill never had the team Pippen had. But I doubt very seriously that Hill puts up the same scoring numbers he did if he were playing next to Jordan. The same with the rebounds playing alongside Rodman or Grant. You Pippen haters can't have it both ways.

That little circle jerk of Miller, and Thomas, and Co. What they were doing on that show to make Grant Hill feel better about himself was pathetic. Hill had it right. Pippen was the standard then not him. Even though Hill was a great player.

[highwhey]

middy shot was W-E-T

[WhiteKyrie]

1st of all, the first play in the video was a travel.
:oldlol:

what?!

Your level of delusion around Pippen knows no bounds. How was this a travel? This should be very entertaining.

This play was as legal as it comes, Scottie just got broke the hell off by Hill’s crossover. In fact he was getting cooked so bad that game that MJ had to switch onto him late.

[Phoenix]

The Pippen/Hill comparison is a prime example of hating on Pippen. Granted, Hill never had the team Pippen had. But I doubt very seriously that Hill puts up the same scoring numbers he did if he were playing next to Jordan. The same with the rebounds playing alongside Rodman or Grant. You Pippen haters can't have it both ways.



The implementation of the Triangle opened a pathway for a 19-22ppg scorer alongside MJ to emerge as part of a championship winning formula. Hill was too talented to at least not duplicate some of Scottie's better scoring seasons. He's not averaging 9 boards with Grant or Rodman in the frontcourt as you said, and the Triangle doesn't give anyone the chance to amass gaudy assist numbers (though funny enough, as far as I know the most anyone averaged on the Bulls/Lakers title teams using that offense was Pippen's 7.0 in 92). I can see his surface numbers being in the ballpark of what Scottie was doing that year. The biggest difference is while Grant was a solid defender( and became a specialist later in his career), Scottie's defensive impact is obviously in a different stratosphere on a team that prided itself on that side of the ball as much as it did offense.

[97 bulls]

:oldlol:

what?!

Your level of delusion around Pippen knows no bounds. How was this a travel? This should be very entertaining.

This play was as legal as it comes, Scottie just got broke the hell off by Hill’s crossover. In fact he was getting cooked so bad that game that MJ had to switch onto him late.

Hill was giving Pippen the business that game. But Hill took 4 steps after he picked up his dribble.

[97 bulls]

The implementation of the Triangle opened a pathway for a 19-22ppg scorer alongside MJ to emerge as part of a championship winning formula. Hill was too talented to at least not duplicate some of Scottie's better scoring seasons. He's not averaging 9 boards with Grant or Rodman in the frontcourt as you said, and the Triangle doesn't give anyone the chance to amass gaudy assist numbers (though funny enough, as far as I know the most anyone averaged on the Bulls/Lakers title teams using that offense was Pippen's 7.0 in 92). I can see his surface numbers being in the ballpark of what Scottie was doing that year. The biggest difference is while Grant was a solid defender( and became a specialist later in his career), Scottie's defensive impact is obviously in a different stratosphere on a team that prided itself on that side of the ball as much as it did offense.

I agree. Hill had an awesome first step. Don't get me wrong, Hill was a great player. But he wasn't better than Pippen, all things considered.

[Kblaze8855]

See... you guys are trolling by even mentioning pippens name in that realm of sharp shooters.

I responded to a post that said grant hill is pippen without the shooting. You understand me?

Pippens shooting ain't shit so I took issue with that. And it's again certifiable that he was a poor jumpshooter and scorer in most of his playoff runs.


So not only do you have no idea what you’re talking about you also can’t read what he said?

You said he was bottom of the barrel and people who actually remember the time in question know there was a Ben Simmons or two who would absolutely not shoot at ALL on most teams which is why he listed the few shooters who were good enough to make Scottie look bad.

If you had any original memories of the time in question you’d know there were plenty of times Scottie was one of one or two guys on the floor for either team who even had range. The league was full of people who would be left open and refuse to shoot anyway. Scottie was making shots off the dribble in a league with 3 dozen Ben Simmons and you’re talking about he was bottom of the barrel because you simply don’t know any better.

It’s ok to just…lack context and learn something. Plenty of shit I don’t know about leagues I wasn’t there to see. You don’t just act like you know anyway. Just get more information and adjust your thinking in the future.

[97 bulls]

So not only do you have no idea what you’re talking about you also can’t read what he said?

You said he was bottom of the barrel and people who actually remember the time in question know there was a Ben Simmons or two who would absolutely not shoot at ALL on most teams which is why he listed the few shooters who were good enough to make Scottie look bad.

If you had any original memories of the time in question you’d know there were plenty of times Scottie was one of one or two guys on the floor for either team who even had range. The league was full of people who would be left open and refuse to shoot anyway. Scottie was making shots off the dribble in a league with 3 dozen Ben Simmons and you’re talking about he was bottom of the barrel because you simply don’t know any better.

It’s ok to just…lack context and learn something. Plenty of shit I don’t know about leagues I wasn’t there to see. You don’t just act like you know anyway. Just get more information and adjust your thinking in the future.

He calling Pippen bottom of thr barrel because he doesn't like Pippen.

Pippen was a streaky shooter. Your assessment is spot on. Especially on that pull up 3 in transition that Pippen liked to do.

[Baller234]

1st of all, the first play in the video was a travel.

2nd, Hill did not lead Pippen in points, rbds, assists, etc as Ernie Johnson stated.
Pippens career averages
16.1, 6.4, 5.2 on 47% 32% on 3s, 70%fts, 50%efg

Hills career averages
16.7, 6, 4.1, 48%, 31% on 3s, 76%fts, and 49%efg

And Pippen blows Hill out of the water on defense

Head to head. Hill finished with a slight lead in points and rebounds, Pippen led in assists, steals and blocks.

Their record against each other is 12-2 in Pippens favor.

The Pippen/Hill comparison is a prime example of hating on Pippen. Granted, Hill never had the team Pippen had. But I doubt very seriously that Hill puts up the same scoring numbers he did if he were playing next to Jordan. The same with the rebounds playing alongside Rodman or Grant. You Pippen haters can't have it both ways.

Those career stats are pointless because we're talking about their primes. I don't really care about stats because everyone with a pair of eyes could see that Hill was the better scorer.

If prime Grant Hill is lucky enough to play with Jordan, guess what... he probably wins 6 championships too. Not really concerned with the numbers he would have put up.

[WhiteKyrie]

Nah I can't put Pippen above him. I know he had the better career by far but I'm sorry Grant Hill was the better player and I'm picking him for my team.

Don't forget Grant was a 2x NCAA champion, so he was great out the gate. He got drafted to a bottom feeding franchise at the time so he couldn't lean on another superstar. Pippen played great defense but guess what everyone on that Bulls team played great defense. If Grant Hill plays with Jordan, he also plays great defense. Then you factor in what he brings to the table offensively, plus the fact that he's not a whiny bitch.

I'm not saying the gap is huge, but in real time I don't think anyone thought Pippen was better.
All facts. And no, nobody in real time from about 1995 - 1999 thought Pippen was better of the two.

[RogueBorg]

1st of all, the first play in the video was a travel.

2nd, Hill did not lead Pippen in points, rbds, assists, etc as Ernie Johnson stated.
Pippens career averages
16.1, 6.4, 5.2 on 47% 32% on 3s, 70%fts, 50%efg

Hills career averages
16.7, 6, 4.1, 48%, 31% on 3s, 76%fts, and 49%efg

And Pippen blows Hill out of the water on defense

Head to head. Hill finished with a slight lead in points and rebounds, Pippen led in assists, steals and blocks.

Their record against each other is 12-2 in Pippens favor.

The Pippen/Hill comparison is a prime example of hating on Pippen. Granted, Hill never had the team Pippen had. But I doubt very seriously that Hill puts up the same scoring numbers he did if he were playing next to Jordan. The same with the rebounds playing alongside Rodman or Grant. You Pippen haters can't have it both ways.

That little circle jerk of Miller, and Thomas, and Co. What they were doing on that show to make Grant Hill feel better about himself was pathetic. Hill had it right. Pippen was the standard then not him. Even though Hill was a great player.

https://media.tenor.co/images/ee850bd1a6c4471f9b3a0a17919c18e4/tenor.gif

[97 bulls]

Those career stats are pointless because we're talking about their primes. I don't really care about stats because everyone with a pair of eyes could see that Hill was the better scorer.

If prime Grant Hill is lucky enough to play with Jordan, guess what... he probably wins 6 championships too. Not really concerned with the numbers he would have put up.

I was only responding to what Ernie Johnson said. Which wasn't true.

[90sgoat]

That little circle jerk of Miller, and Thomas, and Co. What they were doing on that show to make Grant Hill feel better about himself was pathetic. Hill had it right. Pippen was the standard then not him. Even though Hill was a great player.

Pippen had plenty of opportunities to prove himself without MJ as a scorer and he didn't. He scored 22 ppg in his prime when MJ was retired and more important, did not lift his scoring average in the playoffs significantly.

Actually, scoring 3 ppg more compared to with MJ (23 vs 20) also came with a drop in assists from 5.6 to 4.6. That even puts him into "not so impressive" playmaking levels.

Hill showed he could be a go-to scorer over an entire season, Pippen showed did that.

[WhiteKyrie]

Hill was giving Pippen the business that game. But Hill took 4 steps after he picked up his dribble.

No wonder you think Scottie Pippen is delusionally better than he was in reality, you have problems with your vision.

That or you need to update your model phone.

Grant Hill breaks the shit out of him with a crossover, takes two legal steps, then jumps off both feet.

Where do you get four steps kid?

Scottie Pippen always got broken off with the modern crossover from guys roughly his size who could handle the rock. Same way Kobe did him too. Used to break the shit out of them with it too.

Always knew you were a nut based on your distortion of reality of 90s basketball, Michael Jordan, and Scottie Pippen. But didn’t know you were also blind :oldlol:

[90sgoat]

The old crossovers were more effective.

They weren't based on dancing around, but they had to really fake you out and get you on your heels.

[theman93]

Looks like somebody doesn't know what a 0 step is :lol

[WhiteKyrie]

The old crossovers were more effective.

They weren't based on dancing around, but they had to really fake you out and get you on your heels.

AI then G-Hill / Kobe / McGrady ushered in that modern crossover.

Now we’re in the post modern NBA and skill set. Where you’re allowed to literally travel left, right, backwards, and kids and players think it’s legal now.

Have you played pick up all lately? You used to be allowed one and a half steps to the basket for a layup attempt in amateur basketball. In the professionals they gave you two steps. And people used to bitch. Now? They’ve somehow manipulated the rules set into literally walking sideways a step or two and no call is made. It’s ruining the game. And I find it funny that I turned into the old white man in regards to this topic, I had no issue with the modern style of dribbling with the hand on the side of the ball, which is legal (even though they tried to blackball AI’s move) and this crossover we see here on Pippen is no different.

Now players over dribble the ball to the point that the defender doesn’t have anything to worry about. It’s more effective with dramatic change of pace, motion and explosion. That’s why Grant Hill here sent one of the best defenders of all time flying in the opposite direction. The same reason fast as a lightning charged water bug AI was able to cross up the greatest player and perimeter defender of all time (even though it wasn’t as bad as Pippen here and Mike recovered to almost block the shot)

Besides Kyrie, Steph, Dame and a few others, their games are repugnant with over dribbling and illegal walks that don’t get called. The Harden, Poole and others types of game.


Looks like somebody doesn't know what a 0 step is :lol

Not even that, how do you get four steps? It’s cross, 2 steps (could be argued 1.5) and on both feet immediately rises for the thunderous two handed jam. Dude is blind and delusional.

[HoopsNY]

Hill from 1996-00 was a better player than Pippen. Now, I'm not sure how much of that was impacted by Pippen's back woes, because he was clearly 1/2 the player he was by 1999 and 2000, while Hill was entering his peak. That sways things quite a bit, especially since Hill wasn't around in the first half of the decade. There's also an element of recency bias.

I also think Hill would have continued to evolve as a shooter as most other great players did. His highest TS% years all come from 2000 onward, and in 2000 he peaked in terms of his best year prior to injuries at about 57%. He also shot 35% from the distance that year.

From 1995-99, Hill shot 74% from the FTH line. From 2000 to the end of his career, he finished at 80%. Same thing happened with 3PA. He shot just 18% on 0.3 attempts from 1995-99, despite 3 out of the 5 years with the shortened line.

Then from 2000-11 he shot 35% on almost 1 attempt a game.

[97 bulls]

No wonder you think Scottie Pippen is delusionally better than he was in reality, you have problems with your vision.

That or you need to update your model phone.

Grant Hill breaks the shit out of him with a crossover, takes two legal steps, then jumps off both feet.

Where do you get four steps kid?

Scottie Pippen always got broken off with the modern crossover from guys roughly his size who could handle the rock. Same way Kobe did him too. Used to break the shit out of them with it too.

Always knew you were a nut based on your distortion of reality of 90s basketball, Michael Jordan, and Scottie Pippen. But didn’t know you were also blind :oldlol:

Lol. How many steps did Grant Hill take after he picked up his dribble? Meaning he never again put the ball on the floor.

We got people in here talking about half steps and zero steps. Lol yall don't know what a travel is.

[97 bulls]

Hill from 1996-00 was a better player than Pippen. Now, I'm not sure how much of that was impacted by Pippen's back woes, because he was clearly 1/2 the player he was by 1999 and 2000, while Hill was entering his peak. That sways things quite a bit, especially since Hill wasn't around in the first half of the decade. There's also an element of recency bias.

I also think Hill would have continued to evolve as a shooter as most other great players did. His highest TS% years all come from 2000 onward, and in 2000 he peaked in terms of his best year prior to injuries at about 57%. He also shot 35% from the distance that year.

From 1995-99, Hill shot 74% from the FTH line. From 2000 to the end of his career, he finished at 80%. Same thing happened with 3PA. He shot just 18% on 0.3 attempts from 1995-99, despite 3 out of the 5 years with the shortened line.

Then from 2000-11 he shot 35% on almost 1 attempt a game.

Hill was not better than Pippen from 96 and 97. From 98 on? Sure. Again, Pippen has a sizable advantage on the defensive side of the ball.

I'd agree Hill put up better stats over all, but that's not put into context. Pippen had better players around him as well. I'm not gonna blame Hill because Pippens record against him is 12-2. Many of those 12 wins were blowouts.

[97 bulls]

What we have here, is another example of the double standard when it comes to Pippen (aka hate). All I ever hear is thag Pippen couldn't lead a team to a championship. He had 1 year to do this. Hill had 6-7 years and only made the playoffs 2-3 times. And yet all I ever hear about Hill is what might have been. Lol

[HoopsNY]

Hill was not better than Pippen from 96 and 97. From 98 on? Sure. Again, Pippen has a sizable advantage on the defensive side of the ball.

I'd agree Hill put up better stats over all, but that's not put into context. Pippen had better players around him as well. I'm not gonna blame Hill because Pippens record against him is 12-2. Many of those 12 wins were blowouts.

I wouldn't agree about '96 simply because Pippen fell off in the second half and the playoffs. Again, that could be due to injuries, but still, Hill outperformed him. It is what it is. '97 is more debatable, but I remember the talk around town back then about Hill being the best SF in the league.

Even if I concede to 1997, that still leaves 1996, 1998, 1999, and 2000.

[HoopsNY]

What we have here, is another example of the double standard when it comes to Pippen (aka hate). All I ever hear is thag Pippen couldn't lead a team to a championship. He had 1 year to do this. Hill had 6-7 years and only made the playoffs 2-3 times. And yet all I ever hear about Hill is what might have been. Lol

You really have to stop with this extreme love for Pippen. Where are you getting 6-7 years from? 1995-00 is 6 seasons. And he didn't "only" make the playoffs "2-3 times". Hill was in the playoffs 4 times in those 6 years. You expect him to make the playoffs as a rookie on a bad team? 1995 doesn't really count.

[RogueBorg]

No wonder you think Scottie Pippen is delusionally better than he was in reality, you have problems with your vision.

That or you need to update your model phone.

Grant Hill breaks the shit out of him with a crossover, takes two legal steps, then jumps off both feet.

Where do you get four steps kid?

Scottie Pippen always got broken off with the modern crossover from guys roughly his size who could handle the rock. Same way Kobe did him too. Used to break the shit out of them with it too.

Always knew you were a nut based on your distortion of reality of 90s basketball, Michael Jordan, and Scottie Pippen. But didn’t know you were also blind :oldlol:

97 Bulls is a Pippenaire...how ironic.

[97 bulls]

You really have to stop with this extreme love for Pippen. Where are you getting 6-7 years from? 1995-00 is 6 seasons. And he didn't "only" make the playoffs "2-3 times". Hill was in the playoffs 4 times in those 6 years. You expect him to make the playoffs as a rookie on a bad team? 1995 doesn't really count.

Lol. Ok 6 years. My point still stands. Why not the same standard for Hill? He was a rookie once. And he still had an opportunity. Pippens rookie season is held against him. And he was playing with a back injury. Either way. Whether it be one year or six, Hill never led his team to a title. Hell Hill doesn't even have an NBA Championship.

I'm not letting it slide. Why don't I see anybody saying that Hill couldn't lead a team to a title? I'd expect that especially from a player that you feel is better than the player you're putting that standard on.

What's more, is Pippen does have titles. Pippen has more championships than Hill has playoff wins as the man. Pippen won more playoff games in 94 (6) than Hill did from 95 to 00. And I don't disagree with the assessment on Hill. He was Uber talented. But I'm not letting this go.

[97 bulls]

97 Bulls is a Pippenaire...how ironic.

Hey bro. I don't make posts every day propping up Pippen. Most of my posts regarding Pippen are response posts. Like in this thread

You, on the other hand, are a Pippen hater. And a Jordanire.

[Phoenix]

Pippen had plenty of opportunities to prove himself without MJ as a scorer and he didn't. He scored 22 ppg in his prime when MJ was retired and more important, did not lift his scoring average in the playoffs significantly.



22ppg in 1994 was good for 8th in the league. That's only unimpressive against the standards of the current league when you have over 40 20ppg guys. The 8th scorer last year was Kyrie at 27ppg. 22ppg was out of last year's top 20. It's just a different league now.

All that said, in that 94 year Scottie could have boosted his scoring just by taking a couple extra shots, but you look at Grant and BJ, both those guys took 2 more shots per game than the year before. If Scottie just absorbs two attempts from those guys he'd be up in the 24-25ppg range, but Horace/BJ averaging 13 a piece doesn't make the Bulls better here. Making those guys more featured in the offense, if anything, probably makes the team better than seeing how much Scottie could score in MJ's absence. Ultimately, they weren't winning the chip without MJ there. What the 94 Bulls ultimately were missing was MJ's ability to break the game open with his scoring. 90's MJ was more of a decoy and insurance policy to make sure the team always had a fallback when the offense stalled. He had already figured that, as he's quoted saying, 'scoring 8 points a quarter gets you a 32ppg average', so he always knew he could get his, and there were many nights when he laid low in the weeds and let the offense do its thing while he worked his into the flow of that. It was actually beautiful to watch when they were firing on all cylinders.

Final point, Scottie's offensive game was probably more built for run and gun west coast ball than the grind it out east.

[97 bulls]

22ppg in 1994 was good for 8th in the league. That's only unimpressive against the standards of the current league when you have over 40 20ppg guys. The 8th scorer last year was Kyrie at 27ppg. 22ppg was out of last year's top 20. It's just a different league now.

All that said, in that 94 year Scottie could have boosted his scoring just by taking a couple extra shots, but you look at Grant and BJ, both those guys took 2 more shots per game than the year before. If Scottie just absorbs two attempts from those guys he'd be up in the 24-25ppg range, but Horace/BJ averaging 13 a piece doesn't make the Bulls better here. Making those guys more featured in the offense, if anything, probably makes the team better than seeing how much Scottie could score in MJ's absence. Ultimately, they weren't winning the chip without MJ there. What the 94 Bulls ultimately were missing was MJ's ability to break the game open with his scoring. 90's MJ was more of a decoy and insurance policy to make sure the team always had a fallback when the offense stalled. He had already figured that, as he's quoted saying, 'scoring 8 points a quarter gets you a 32ppg average', so he always knew he could get his, and there were many nights when he laid low in the weeds and let the offense do its thing while he worked his into the flow of that. It was actually beautiful to watch when they were firing on all cylinders.

Final point, Scottie's offensive game was probably more built for run and gun west coast ball than the grind it out east.

Exactly.

[HoopsNY]

Lol. Ok 6 years. My point still stands. Why not the same standard for Hill? He was a rookie once. And he still had an opportunity. Pippens rookie season is held against him. And he was playing with a back injury. Either way. Whether it be one year or six, Hill never led his team to a title. Hell Hill doesn't even have an NBA Championship.

I'm not letting it slide. Why don't I see anybody saying that Hill couldn't lead a team to a title? I'd expect that especially from a player that you feel is better than the player you're putting that standard on.

What's more, is Pippen does have titles. Pippen has more championships than Hill has playoff wins as the man. Pippen won more playoff games in 94 (6) than Hill did from 95 to 00. And I don't disagree with the assessment on Hill. He was Uber talented. But I'm not letting this go.

I didn't say Hill was necessarily better overall. We didn't really get to see the ultimate best version of Hill as his career basically ended in 2000 at the age of 27. That was the height of the defensive era and Hill was still putting up 26/7/5/1 on 57% TS%.

I'd probably take a '94 or '95 Pippen over any version of Hill outside of his 2000 season. But we can only assume what would have happened with Hill. My point still stands though. Hill > Pippen from '96-'00. Now if we're trying to compare Pippen from '91-'95 and Hill from '96-'00, then that debate gets very interesting.

In that scenario, then I'm taking Pippen.

[John8204]

The one thing I find curious about Hill is why he escaped all criticism of never winning a playoff series in his prime. That literally came to define McGrady's career, yet I bet the majority of NBA fans wouldn't even know Hill failed to get out of the first round until he was way past his prime like McGrady did. It's not like these guys played eras apart either, they were teammates at one point :lol

Different eras, when Hill made his run before his injuries he was playing in a deep east...five teams (Atlanta, Orlando, Indiana, New York, and Chicago) took up 90% of the playoff spots. Tracy was playing in an era with more parity.

[97 bulls]

I didn't say Hill was necessarily better overall. We didn't really get to see the ultimate best version of Hill as his career basically ended in 2000 at the age of 27. That was the height of the defensive era and Hill was still putting up 26/7/5/1 on 57% TS%.

I'd probably take a '94 or '95 Pippen over any version of Hill outside of his 2000 season. But we can only assume what would have happened with Hill. My point still stands though. Hill > Pippen from '96-'00. Now if we're trying to compare Pippen from '91-'95 and Hill from '96-'00, then that debate gets very interesting.

In that scenario, then I'm taking Pippen.

I understand your point. You feel Hill was better during the seasons you listed.

I'm just trying to figure out why when it comes to Hill, it's what might've been (even though he had 6 opportunities), but with Pippen? It's always what he couldn't do. Even though he never had the same amount of opportunities.

Hill like Pippen didn't have the team good enough to win. Well never know. All I'm saying is why can't we be consistent? If Pippen wasn't good enough based on 1 season, then Hill shouldn't get any slack either. Especially seeing as how Hill (taking into consideration he's supposed to be better) did play one of those six season at the age of 27. Pippen was 28 in the single season he had.

So again, why is there a double standard?

[Lebron23]

How many playoffs games did he won???