Was Rudy Gobert a liability or above average on the perimeter?

[iamgine]

We all know Gobert was a monster in the paint. Defended the rim as well as anyone.

However, a common criticism is about switching and perimeter defense, which is important in today's game. There seems to be two main arguments:

1. He's a liability in defending the perimeter, largely neutralizing his impact especially in the playoff.

2. He's no Kevin Garnett but he's actually fine on the perimeter, above average even among today's centers. The fault lies with his teammates/coach/team tactics.



Which is the correct take in your opinion?

[Carbine]

He's below average overall with some all time worst reps where it makes him look like a complete bum

[Xiao Yao You]

https://saltcityhoops.com/dispelling-myths-aroung-goberts-defense/

When looking to the entire sample size of these instances, the numbers make it infinitely clear that Gobert isn’t just a good perimeter defender, he’s elite. This is true whether Gobert is (1) guarding in isolation, (2) matched up with the ball handler in the pick and roll, or (3) contesting a spot up perimeter shot.

[Axe]

Whatever he's trying to be, he should come off from the bench.

[warriorfan]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/RecklessIllfatedIslandcanary-max-1mb.gif

chef does it to everyone though

[SATAN]

Seen him get cooked quite often. Seems to have slow reaction time when guards look to blow by him. I remember him being almost unplayable in the stretch of a couple games. (This was with Denver, haven't seen many of the Timberwolves games.)

[RRR3]

Seen him get cooked quite often. Seems to have slow reaction time when guards look to blow by him. I remember him being almost unplayable in the stretch of a couple games. (This was with Denver, haven't seen many of the Timberwolves games.)
Denver? :lol

[Xiao Yao You]

Whatever he's trying to be, he should come off from the bench.

another brilliant observation :lol

[Xiao Yao You]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/RecklessIllfatedIslandcanary-max-1mb.gif

chef does it to everyone though

not everyone was playing on a sprained knee like he was though

[SATAN]

Denver? :lol

Utah. :biggums:

My bad. :lol

[rmt]

Whatever he's trying to be, he should come off from the bench.

Ditto - in addition, shouldn't even be on the team - not for that INSANE amount of money.

[Im Still Ballin]

He was very good. And that's on God!

[brownmamba00]

Rudy toody sucks. Garbage.

[90sgoat]

He's no Kristaps Porzingis.

[ralph_i_el]

He's not a liability on the perimeter. He's just so much better in the paint. The Jazz played weak perimeter defenders, who could play more aggressively knowing that they had Gobert behind them. When you play legit 5-out, you kill that dynamic. The Jazz were able to put up good offensive numbers because they had the ability to play offense-first players with Gobert in MOST situations (until you play the Clippers and they play no bigs).


Gobert is kind of the reverse Iverson. Iverson could carry so much offense that you could play defense-first players with him. Gobert carries so much defense when he can stay around the paint that you can play offense-first players with him.

[ralph_i_el]

France let Gobert switch and play more perimeter defense, and he held up really well.

His legacy in Utah will be hurt by the fact that Kessler is also an absolute defensive stud as well.

[Xiao Yao You]

France let Gobert switch and play more perimeter defense, and he held up really well.

His legacy in Utah will be hurt by the fact that Kessler is also an absolute defensive stud as well.

Kessler has yet to show he can guard in space so it's a bit early to call him a stud. France plays another big with him not a 6'4 " PF like COTM did. He never had a Lauri, Vanderbilt, Olynyk...

Gobert can guard the perimeter but you have to have someone guard the rim if he has to leave the paint. He can't be in both places!

[Kblaze8855]

Above average for his size for sure but not so much so he can’t be exploited. But that’s not really a fair standard to have for someone just shy of true giant size. It’s not reasonable to expect him to be able to defend Steph Curry. He’s supposed to be out of his element there. There aren’t many true seven footers in history who wouldn’t be. In fact, there may not be one period. Most of the people who come to mind are really a shade under that size.

[Xiao Yao You]

Above average for his size for sure but not so much so he can’t be exploited. But that’s not really a fair standard to have for someone just shy of true giant size. It’s not reasonable to expect him to be able to defend Steph Curry. He’s supposed to be out of his element there. There aren’t many true seven footers in history who wouldn’t be. In fact, there may not be one period. Most of the people who come to mind are really a shade under that size.

and he was playing on a sprained knee that would have kept him out a month in the regular season

[meat]

WTF yall talking in past tense? You made me google to see if he died.

[Axe]

Ditto - in addition, shouldn't even be on the team - not for that INSANE amount of money.
Yep, $200m is a bit of a stretch for an ordinary big like him.

[Xiao Yao You]

Yep, $200m is a bit of a stretch for an ordinary big like him.


multiple all NBA and DPOY is an ordinary big to a troll :roll:

[Manny98]

https://youtu.be/ioTMmK34ibc

[beasted]

Above average for his size for sure but not so much so he can’t be exploited. But that’s not really a fair standard to have for someone just shy of true giant size. It’s not reasonable to expect him to be able to defend Steph Curry. He’s supposed to be out of his element there. There aren’t many true seven footers in history who wouldn’t be. In fact, there may not be one period. Most of the people who come to mind are really a shade under that size.
This is pretty fair as long as we're not pretending he was good on the perimeter. Systematically he forces the coach's hand to scheme where he can only play in a drop or switch. Asking him to hedge and recover is futile.

[Xiao Yao You]

Keep ignoring the facts :facepalm


From 2 years ago. A year before his peak


Gobert defended 1,335 shots this year, 184 more than anyone else. The 267 3-point shots he defended are the fourth most among 67 NBA Centers, and also more than Ben Simmons, Jimmy Butler, Marcus Smart, OG Anunoby, and Kawhi Leonard. He’s defended the seventh most shots in isolation (78), and the most shots attempted on cuts to the basket (229). It’s safe to say Gobert puts himself out there in terms of guarding every player on every play more than anyone in the league.


When looking to the entire sample size of these instances, the numbers make it infinitely clear that Gobert isn’t just a good perimeter defender, he’s elite. This is true whether Gobert is (1) guarding in isolation, (2) matched up with the ball handler in the pick and roll, or (3) contesting a spot up perimeter shot.


Let’s start with isolation defense. This year, there were 87 players that guarded at least 50 isolations. If mainstream highlight reels are your source of information here, you’d expect to see Rudy at the bottom of the pack. Actually, the opposite is true. Gobert allows the seventh fewest points per possession (PPP). Opponents score an average of 0.71 points per isolation when Gobert is defending. That’s less than Simmons (0.73), Anunoby (0.76), Bam Adebayo (0.78), Mikal Bridges (0.97), Giannis Antetokounmpo (1.06), Clint Capela (1.07), and Myles Turner (1.08).


Gobert also allows the third lowest scoring frequency (30.6%), the eighth lowest FG% (32%), and the fourth lowest FT throw frequency (4.7%) when guarding opponents in isolation. So, how’s Gobert so good at guarding isolation? He stays in front, goes straight up with his 7’9 wingspan arms, and contests without fouling.


Next, there’s guarding the ball handler in the pick and roll. There are 201 players that have guarded the ball handler in a pick and roll at least 10 times (min. 50 games played). Since tracking data has only picked up that Gobert has guarded the ball in the pick and roll on 15 possessions, this data isn’t as tight as the isolation data, but it’s what we have to deal with. Of the 201 players, Rudy Gobert allows the sixth fewest points per possession (0.67), which is better than basically every household name including Adebayo (0.69), Butler (0.74), Leonard (0.87), Simmons (0.87), and Antetokounpo (0.88).


Next, we have spot-up shooting or catch-and-shoot defense. This is basically how well defenders close out on a shooter that was just passed the ball. There are 233 players who have guarded at least 100 spot-up plays. Again, Gobert allows the seventh fewest points per possession (0.83).


Gobert again is basically better than every top defender. Allowing just 0.83 points per possession on these higher percentage shots is outstanding.


Overall, taking the individual average points allowed (PPP) against isolation, on-ball pick and roll, and catch and shoot, Gobert’s average doesn’t just keep up with the others top candidates for DPOY this year, he blows them out of the water.


However, this still tells us something. The reality is that Gobert has a far better score here than most players on this list because he matches up with guards a fair amount of the time (17.1%). Conversely, Simmons matches up with centers only 6.1% of the time. That’s a big difference. In terms of how each player does in the other guy’s wheelhouse, Gobert holds guards to 39.1% field goal shooting (Simmons 42.1%), while Simmons allows centers to shoot 57.9% (Gobert 43.4%).


Rudy Gobert has played in 6 playoff series in his career. I want to admit at the outset, as you might already know, that the Jazz lost 4 of them. But even in those four series losses, the only series that Gobert even allowed the opposing team to outscore him while he was on the court were the Rockets in 2019 and the Warriors in 2017.


Rudy Gobert: Total Playoff +/- By Series

2019-20 vs. Nuggets: +26 (L)
2018-19 vs. Rockets: -50 (L)
2017-18 vs. Thunder: +34 (W)
2017-18 vs. Rockets: +34 (L)
2016-17 vs. Clippers: -4 (W)
2016-17 vs. Warriors: -62 (L)



In 2018-19, the Jazz faced the Rockets in the first round of the playoffs. At the time, Houston’s offense was both on a historic pace. Rockets had an offensive rating of 114.9 in the regular season. The year before, the Rockets put up a 116.0 o-rating in the first round. The Jazz held the Rockets to a 108.5 offensive rating in that series, the lowest mark of their playoff run. (The Rockets would go on to score 112.1 in their next series vs. the Warriors.) The Jazz didn’t advance, but that was mostly due to their inability to make open shots, rather than anything involving the Gobert-focused defensive strategy.


In 2016-17, the Jazz faced the Warriors in the second round. Across their entire playoff run that year, the Warriors had an ORtg of 118.2. Their first round was a 116.9. In the Western Conference Finals it was 120.3, and in the Finals 120.4. Against the Jazz in the conference semis, the Warriors managed just a 114.4, their worst of any series of their title run.


If anything, the real issue in these playoff series for the Jazz was offense-related. The Jazz1 (https://saltcityhoops.com/dispelling-myths-aroung-goberts-defense/#note-1) simply could not score. But in terms of the quality of the Gobert-led defense, it held up. Gobert most certainly did not get played off the court in either of those series. His minutes in the 2017 Warriors series were actually higher than his regular season minutes average, and in 2019 he played just 1.4 minutes per game less than he did over his 81 games.



and he was playing hurt against the Warriors :bowdown:

[Axe]

And still no trip to the conference finals. :lebroncry:

:roll:

[Xiao Yao You]

And still no trip to the conference finals. :lebroncry:

:roll:

and was never expected to. Overachiever

[Axe]

and was never expected to. Overachiever
https://cdn3.emoji.gg/emojis/2397-shrek-ahhuh.png