I've been accused of lying but [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

3ba11

08-15-2023, 01:31 PM

Yes, you did indeed lie in the other thread about Jordan doubling LeBron’s scoring output in the 4th quarters of the finals runs you chose, as well as lying about him being more efficient.

Jordan: 9.8 ppg on 53.01 TS%

LeBron: 7.2 ppg on 55.67 TS%

^both claims are now proven lies.

You also made the claim that Jordan had higher offensive ratings in these selected quarters, but have adduced nothing to support it.

So yeah. Lied (about at least 2 of the 3 claims I’ve examined).

Funny how nearly every specious claim that has an objective answer turns out to be a lie. Sure makes you a reliable narrator on the more nebulous, subjective things.

Who cares if I picked the wrong years - if you can't refute that Jordan is a vastly superior clutch performer and all you can do is make statistical corrections that don't change the conclusion, then what value is your post?

If I posted the right years, then I guess you have no purpose on this forum.. You're an editor I guess and doing a fine job, but otherwise agree with everything I say - you agree that Jordan was vastly superior in the clutch and you agree that Lebron sucks off-ball compared to Mike or Curry or Bird or Kobe... and you also agree that he lacks fundamentals like Duncan, so he can't have great brand of ball and Finals records like all these guys do.. it's bball101 and you agree with all of it.. you simply like to make statistical corrections since you can't come up with actual takes yourself (requires a higher level than your secretarial understanding)

But then you ignore important things like ORTG or efficiency per possession, where Lebron's was inferior to MJ's.. Meanwhile, when given the same defensive attention, Lebron can't hit the broadside of a barn and has woat shooting efficiency

3ba11

08-15-2023, 02:04 PM

.

Finals 4th quarter

Old Jordan (97-98')'......... 9.8 on 53 ts... 0.35 TO
Prime Bron (07-20')......... 7.2 on 55 ts... 1.03 TO

* 36% more scoring for Jordan vs maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load), while Lebron had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention (shooting efficiency boost) and averaged 3 times as many turnovers (lower efficiency per possession)

* Old Jordan doubled or tripled Lebron's scoring in the 4th quarter for the 2011, 2014 and 2017 Finals (near-doubling in 17')

* Lebron was a 4 TO per game player in the 4th quarter of Finals.. He also had many series where he did far worse than that, such as the 2009 ECF where he turned into a 12 TO per 48 minutes of clutch-time - so when the game got close, Lebron turned into the biggest turnover machine ever

tontoz

08-15-2023, 02:09 PM

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/g195/tontoz/Inside%20Hoops/.highres/840937-Beatingadeadhorse.gif

PejaTheSerbSnip

08-15-2023, 03:03 PM

Who cares if I picked the wrong years -

Another lie. You didn’t pick specific years for LeBron. You claimed these numbers were for his entire career.

if you can't refute that Jordan is a vastly superior clutch performer and all you can do is make statistical corrections that don't change the conclusion, then what value is your post?

The value is in exposing that you lied.

I have no issue with you or anyone else thinking Jordan is the GOAT (hell I don’t even find it terribly objectionable for people to think LeBron is either, as much as I disagree).

That’s never been why I’ve chosen to bounce your head around like a pinball. It’s the fact that you lie and exaggerate about the extent of LeBron’s failures.

You can keep moving heaven and earth to swivel things around with red herrings and misdirection, thinking it’ll tire me out. It still hasn’t gotten close to happening.

If I posted the right years, then I guess you have no purpose on this forum..

Again, you did not post specific years. It wasn’t a mere clerical error. You thought this was LeBron’s career finals average in fourth quarters.

but otherwise agree with everything I say -

Not really. I’ve debunked hundreds of specific claims you’ve made.

For that matter, you don’t even appear to agree with much of what you say, considering the bipolar progression of your all-time lists.

Would someone be a dear and post them?

you agree that Jordan was vastly superior in the clutch

Vastly? No. There’s only so much separation that can be created between the two.

That is, unless we’re confining “clutch” only to last possessions. In which case, sure.

and you agree that Lebron sucks off-ball compared to Mike or Curry or Bird or Kobe...

Just as you would surely agree that Jordan sucks at rebounding compared to Rodman…different players have different strengths. Comparing one players weakness to another players strength doesn’t strike me as a balanced way to appraise their merits, but we both know this already.

and you also agree that he lacks fundamentals like Duncan,

No? Where do I compare their fundamentals?

Quotes please.

so he can't have great brand of ball and Finals records like all these guys do..

We can go through each finals series and debate which of them LeBron should’ve won, and why.

Jordan wasn’t at a talent deficit in at least 5 of his 6 finals. ‘93 is debatable, as Barkley had a better cast on the offensive side of the ball. That about covers it.

Should we debate that one again? Would be a fun to bully you in that topic once more, for old times sake.

you simply like to make statistical corrections since you can't come up with actual takes yourself

Actually I’ve corrected (read: disproven) hundreds of specific claims you’ve made.

It doesn’t take a keen eye for detail to do it, so I’m definitely not special in that sense. It really is just that easy.

(requires a higher level than your secretarial understanding)

The sheer volume of deception has been high-level, yes.

But then you ignore important things like ORTG or efficiency per possession,

Go ahead and provide evidence that Jordan’s offensive rating was higher in the quarters you selected. There’s no reason to believe it was. I’ll be waiting.

.

Finals 4th quarter

Old Jordan (97-98')'......... 9.8 on 53 ts... [SIZE=4]0.35 TO
Prime Bron (07-20')......... 7.2 on 55 ts... 1.03 TO

Now do their rebound and assist numbers? Believe Jordan amassed a fairly modest 14 assists in 11 4th quarters.

Very unsurprisingly, you don’t round up for LeBron — his TS% was actually 55.67%.

Also, best I can tell it’s actually quite fortunate that PBP tracking started in ‘97, because Jordan was pretty statistically underwhelming in the 4th quarters of the ‘96 finals. I remember reading he scored 4 points in 16% shooting in the final three games. Perhaps I’ll have a watch some day soon and confirm.

* 36% more scoring for Jordan vs maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load), while Lebron had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention (shooting efficiency boost) and averaged 3 times as many turnovers (lower efficiency per possession)

* Old Jordan doubled or tripled Lebron's scoring in the 4th quarter for the 2011, 2014 and 2017 Finals (near-doubling in 17')

All addressed in the previous thread. Feel free to quote and address the specifics I made.

* Lebron was a 4 TO per game player in the 4th quarter of Finals..

Source?

And can you compare their rebounding/assist numbers?

3ba11

08-15-2023, 03:18 PM

First you got their scoring numbers wrong.

I got the years wrong, not the numbers

old Jordan doubled or tripled Lebron's 4th quarter scoring in the Finals for 2011, 2014 or 2017

In these years, Lebron averaged 5 ppg in the 4th just like I said, or even worse (3 ppg in 11' or 14')

Then you pivoted to shooting efficiency. I manually checked, and confirmed this was incorrect too.

Where did you get the true shooting data for Lebron's 4th quarters in the Finals?

And your numbers showed that the true shooting was close even though Lebron faced half the defensive attention as Jordan (lebron had equal-scoring partners while jordan doubled everyone's scoring in many Finals, aka all eyes on him) - so Lebron's shooting efficiency underperforms compared to MJ when we consider his vastly lower scoring burden, lower defensive attention (equal-scoring partners) and 3 times as many turnovers in the 4th.

Anytime that Lebron had "all eyes on him" defense (carrying scoring load) like Jordan faced - he almost always lost and had worst-ever efficiency.

Then, after being proven wrong twice, in separate posts, you thereafter confidently declared that Jordan had a higher offensive rating, despite providing no evidence.

.

Finals 4th quarter

Old Jordan (97-98')'......... 9.8 on 53 ts... 0.35 TO
Prime Bron (07-20')......... 7.2 on 55 ts... 1.03 TO

* 36% more scoring for Jordan vs maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load), while Lebron had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention (shooting boost) and averaged 3 times as many turnovers (lower efficiency per possession)

* Old Jordan doubled or tripled Lebron's scoring in the 4th quarter for the 2011, 2014 and 2017 Finals (near-doubling in 17')

* Lebron is a 4 TO per game player in the 4th quarter of Finals (Westbrook).. He also had many series where he did far worse than that, such as the 2009 ECF where he turned into a 12 TO per 48 minutes of clutch-time - so when the game got close, Lebron turned into the biggest turnover machine ever

No, you weren’t merely “wrong”, because anyone that’s been proven wrong this many times would show more circumspection instead of blindly side-arming shit against a wall and hoping it’ll stick.

Nothing I've said is wrong - see the above responses

Nothing that I've ever said about Lebron is wrong or exaggerated - bad fits and point guard stats (hold-time and assisted rate) confirm that Lebron doesn't play 5 positions and is actually an abnormal ball-dominator for his size/position that imposes spot-up roles.. These spot-up roles never developed a single young player into meaningful producer in 20 years (zero young player development), while also preventing elite chemistry or strategic capacity/coaching, thereby yielding perennial underdogs regardless of cast or on-paper talent advantage (preseason favorite status).

This is my thesis and you already know that each point is backed up by significant statistical proof - nothing you have ever said has refuted this or backed me off any of this - so kudos for accomplishing nothing.. :applause:

These were, by and large, low-leverage minutes (in 2014 and 2017 fourth quarters).

Okay but Lebron only averaged between 3.0 and 7.7 in the 4th quarter of the Finals from 2011-2014 (carried compared to Jordan) and:

From BBallBreakdown on youtube:

LeBron James scored 1.1 points a minute when the Heat were getting blown out by 15+ BUT, when the Heat made the games closer <15, LeBron was scoring 0.65 points a minute. This shows that he was scoring much more when the Spurs bench was in and the Heat were down 15+ and it shows that he was scoring much less when the Spurs starters were in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y02r-Dz5cMw

Since Lebron lacks expert jumpshooting skill (which frequently gets the big, tough buckets for teams), he's forced to rely on a predictable rim attack that gets stifled in many ways when the game gets tight (i.e. clog paint, foul, etc).. So he's more of a pure athlete than a hooper, aka he lacks great touch or moves and therefore needs all-time scoring help like Kyrie, Wade or AD, while also needing perennial all-stars and franchise guys at 3rd option..

Phoenix

08-15-2023, 03:23 PM

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/g195/tontoz/Inside%20Hoops/.highres/840937-Beatingadeadhorse.gif

Seriously.

PejaTheSerbSnip

08-15-2023, 03:33 PM

I got the years wrong, not the numbers

old Jordan doubled or tripled Lebron's 4th quarter scoring in the Finals for 2011, 2014 or 2017

In these years, Lebron averaged 5 ppg in the 4th just like I said, or even worse (3 ppg in 11' or 14')

Where did you get the true shooting data for Lebron's 4th quarters in the Finals?

And your numbers showed that the true shooting was close even though Lebron faced half the defensive attention as Jordan (lebron had equal-scoring partners while jordan doubled everyone's scoring in many Finals, aka all eyes on him) - so Lebron's shooting efficiency underperforms compared to MJ when we consider his vastly lower scoring burden, lower defensive attention (equal-scoring partners) and 3 times as many turnovers in the 4th.

Anytime that Lebron had "all eyes on him" defense (carrying scoring load) like Jordan faced - he almost always lost and had worst-ever efficiency.

.

Finals 4th quarter

Old Jordan (97-98')'......... 9.8 on 53 ts... 0.35 TO
Prime Bron (07-20')......... 7.2 on 55 ts... 1.03 TO

* 36% more scoring for Jordan vs maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load), while Lebron had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention (shooting boost) and averaged 3 times as many turnovers (lower efficiency per possession)

* Old Jordan doubled or tripled Lebron's scoring in the 4th quarter for the 2011, 2014 and 2017 Finals (near-doubling in 17')

* Lebron is a 4 TO per game player in the 4th quarter of Finals (Westbrook).. He also had many series where he did far worse than that, such as the 2009 ECF where he turned into a 12 TO per 48 minutes of clutch-time - so when the game got close, Lebron turned into the biggest turnover machine ever

Nothing I've said is wrong - see the above responses

Nothing that I've ever said about Lebron is wrong or exaggerated - bad fits and point guard stats (hold-time and assisted rate) confirm that Lebron doesn't play 5 positions and is actually an abnormal ball-dominator for his size/position that imposes spot-up roles.. These spot-up roles never developed a single young player into meaningful producer in 20 years (zero young player development), while also preventing elite chemistry or strategic capacity/coaching, thereby yielding perennial underdogs regardless of cast or on-paper talent advantage (preseason favorite status).

This is my thesis and you already know that each point is backed up by significant statistical proof - nothing you have ever said has refuted this or backed me off any of this - so kudos for accomplishing nothing.. :applause:

Okay but Lebron only averaged between 3.0 and 7.7 in the 4th quarter of the Finals from 2011-2014 (carried compared to Jordan) and:

From BBallBreakdown on youtube:

LeBron James scored 1.1 points a minute when the Heat were getting blown out by 15+ BUT, when the Heat made the games closer <15, LeBron was scoring 0.65 points a minute. This shows that he was scoring much more when the Spurs bench was in and the Heat were down 15+ and it shows that he was scoring much less when the Spurs starters were in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y02r-Dz5cMw

Since Lebron lacks expert jumpshooting skill (which frequently gets the big, tough buckets for teams), he's forced to rely on a predictable rim attack that gets stifled in many ways when the game gets tight (i.e. clog paint, foul, etc).. So he's more of a pure athlete than a hooper, aka he lacks great touch or moves and therefore needs all-time scoring help like Kyrie, Wade or AD, while also needing perennial all-stars and franchise guys at 3rd option..

All addressed.

PejaTheSerbSnip

08-15-2023, 03:34 PM

See here:

You didn’t select specific years originally. You claimed this was over the course of LeBron’s entire finals career. Keep squealing.

Already addressed, in the very posted you quoted:

The whole point of examining 4th quarter statistics is that they’re supposed to shine a light on how a player did in high-leverage situations…

…which makes it patently silly to use the ‘14 and ‘17 4th quarters as proof of anything.

Most of these games weren’t close going into the fourth. LeBron’s fourth quarter play wasn’t any more consequential than his 1st-3rd quarter play.

These were, by and large, low-leverage minutes.

Addressed already. No, you didn’t get the years confused. You didn’t pick individual years for LeBron originally.

Additionally, even this dataset is skewed, but not for the reason you think: “Old Jordan” includes ‘96, a year where PBP tracking wasn’t available. His 4th quarter stats in those finals were quite unimpressive, going off memory.

Will likely speed-watch every 4th quarter and prove it conclusively — stay tuned.

If your retort is that I’m including three 4ths (Games 4-6) in a series that was all-but-won by then, congrats: we are now on the same page about not all 4th quarters being alike.

Another free lesson, courtesy of yours truly.

Manually tallied them.

Indeed. Jordan had the scoring edge (though part of it is by virtue of playing more minutes on average in his 4ths, so it marginally dwindles if we’re going by per-minute), while LeBron had the efficiency and rebounding/assists edge.

Literally addressed these exact words, several times now. Will include it once more:

Against the 9th and 17th ranked defences, on teams where he had ample help in the other facets of the game (defence, rebounding, playmaking) to allow him to focus on his strengths unabated.

If you want to argue the relatively uncontroversial position that Jordan is the Finals GOAT, do that. Just don’t lie and exaggerate constantly.

(Who am I kidding, please continue to do alll of the above lmao.)

so Lebron's shooting efficiency underperforms compared to MJ when we consider his vastly lower scoring burden, lower defensive attention (equal-scoring partners) and 3 times as many turnovers in the 4th.

Anytime that Lebron had "all eyes on him" defense (carrying scoring load) like Jordan faced - he almost always lost and had worst-ever efficiency.

Already addressed:

Now do their rebound and assist numbers? Believe Jordan amassed a fairly modest 14 assists in 11 4th quarters.

Very unsurprisingly, you don’t round up for LeBron — his TS% was actually 55.67%.

Also, best I can tell it’s actually quite fortunate that PBP tracking started in ‘97, because Jordan was pretty statistically underwhelming in the 4th quarters of the ‘96 finals. I remember reading he scored 4 points in 16% shooting in the final three games. Perhaps I’ll have a watch some day soon and confirm.

Which specific, falsifiable claim have I failed to address?

All addressed in the thread you’ve scurried away from, and all are irrelevant to the specific claims I’ve debunked in this thread. Will be sure to link the previous thread, though.

Thankfully, we can verify that this is false: we have about 70 pages worth of me going line-by-line for practically every specific claim you’ve made, with me, to your eternal chagrin, getting the last word in.

Please feel free to clear the backlog of posts you have yet to respond to there.

…beyond addressing several of these discrepancies and being quite forthright about calling the ‘11 finals a huge legacy-dampener for LeBron…I’ve also never called him a better finals performer. These are all non-sequiturs.

Feel free to stick to the topic at hand, and address the specific counters I’ve broached.

None of this is a response to the specific points I’ve made, but you can keep copy and pasting things we’ve already discussed, which are irrelevant to the thread.

3ba11

08-15-2023, 04:04 PM

Jordan wasn’t at a talent deficit in at least 5 of his 6 finals.

There's a depth of understanding on this specific topic that you're lacking here.. I will try to help you with it.

Forget the Finals for a moment... the majority of teams in the league DESTROYED the Bulls from the 3 thru 12 spots because they had actual scoring options that were all-nba or multiple-time all-stars at 3rd option, and also guys with all-star experience at 4th, 5th or 6th option.

Here's an example... After Ewing and Starks, the Knicks had 5 guys that were equal or superior to Horace - this includes Mason (1x All-NBA), Mark Jackson (1x all-star and all-time floor general), X-Man (1x all-star that destroyed Pippen in the 92' ECSF and dominated the 87' Lakers in the WCF as 1st option), Oakley (1x all-star), Charles Smith (14/7 and 1.5 bpg).. They also had Greg Anthony and Gerald Wilkins, who would've been the 4th to 6th best players on the Bulls.

So the Knicks' roster was FAR SUPERIOR to the Bulls and that's just 1 example of a 2nd Round or ECF opponent.. Most teams have similar talent edges like the Pistons, Pacers or Magic.

After Isiah and Dumars, the Pistons had 3x all-stars like Laimbeer, Aguirre or Rodman that were easily superior to Horace, while Vinnie Johnson, Edwards and Salley were superior role players than the Bulls had (Paxson, Cartwright, etc).. And look at the 96' Magic or 98' Pacers - after Reggie Miller and Rik Smits, the Pacers had Chris Mullin, Mark Jackson, Derrick McKey (all-defender), Jalen Rose (24 ppg in 2000 Finals), Best and the Davis Brothers - that's completely STACKED compared to the Bulls.. The 96' Magic were also more stacked.

Jordan wasn’t at a talent deficit in at least 5 of his 6 finals.

Now let's look at the Finals.

After Magic and Worthy, Vlade and Sam Perkins were sophisticated bigs that destroyed Horace Grant as a player and in the 91' Finals..

Meanwhile, AC Green was a 1x all-star that was more comparable to Horace... Byron Scott destroys Paxson... Elden Campbell came off the bench in that stacked frontcourt but compares well to Horace.. It's a joke.. the Lakers had good players and scorers after Magic and Worthy, while the Bulls had role players and robots.

The 92' Blazers and 93' Suns had the biggest talent edges over the Bulls... Ainge and Cliff Robinson were coming off the Blazers' bench, while they had 4 guys with significant all-star experience in the starting lineup along with 20 ppg Jerome Kersey to round out the stackage... And you already agree on the 93' Suns.. The 96' Sonics obviously destroy the Bulls with All-NBA Schrempf at 3rd option (similar to the Knicks Mason or the Heat's Mashburn - most contenders had all-nba or multiple-time all-stars at 3rd option).

TLDR: Jordan faced talent deficits throughout the playoffs, while it's uncertain whether Lebron's super-teams ever faced a talent deficit - they remain the only team during that time period to have 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team)

3ba11

08-15-2023, 04:20 PM

Jordan sucks at rebounding compared to Rodman

Who led the Bulls in defensive rebounding for the 1997 Playoffs? Jordan or Rodman?

In the 97' Playoffs, Jordan led the Bulls in defensive rebounding, assists, steals and he was co-leader in BPG with pippen....

He did all this while carrying the scoring load throughout the playoffs (defeating max defensive attention), which Lebron never did.. Lebron never carried any category except the one you never want to carry - assists - hogging the assists, aka no ball movement and therefore massive team assist deficits in the Finals

Btw, Rodman averaged 3/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs and wasn't the starter for the 98' Playoffs - Jordan won those 2 titles IN SPITE of him, and he already 3-peated with a 12/9 player at PF (horace) - so Jordan didn't need anyone to dominate or play well for him to win titles.

ShawkFactory

08-15-2023, 04:23 PM

3ba11

08-15-2023, 04:26 PM

Source for the 4th quarter turnovers ?

NBA.com

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/traditional?SeasonType=Playoffs&Season=2019-20&PORound=4&Period=4

here's lebron's turnover averages in the 4th quarter of each Finals:

2007: 1.8
2011: 1.2
2012: 1.2
2013: 0.9
2014: 0.6
2015: 0.7
2016: 1.2
2017: 0.4
2018: 1.0
2020: 1.3

Here's Jordan's

1997: 0.5
1998: 0.2

So Lebroh averages 1.03 turnovers in the 4th quarter of Finals games (4 TO per game player, aka Westbrook), while the GOAT averages 0.35 turnovers in the 4th (1.4 TO per game player in clutch-time, aka bowdown).

Since Lebron averages 3 times as many turnovers in the 4th (1.03 to 0.35) without a commensurate advantage in shooting efficiency and FAR lower actual scoring production, we can conclude that Lebron has lower ORTG in the 4th quarter of the Finals, which is commensurate with his regular season or playoff careers.

Now where's your source on the true shooting in the 4th quarter of Finals?

3ba11

08-15-2023, 04:41 PM

That's the part that I never understood with the whole scoring option thing. If the 5th best player on the team is primarily a scorer..how is that better than if the 5th best player on the team is best at defense or rebounding? Particularly if the team has a GOAT scorer and another very good one at the top.

Kevin Love as a 3rd option was never going to score 25 points a game. That would be impossible regardless of who he's playing with ever, and wouldn't be necessary because if he's 3rd option that means there are 2 better scorers already. So why does him being able to score 25 as a first option make him more valuable as a 3rd option than someone like Draymond, who provides things that the top 2 scorers don't?

It's wild how often team construction is conveniently ignored. People making arguments act like they'd rather have Monta Ellis as the 4th best player on a team than Joakim Noah. By and large you want your role players to fill specific roles...not to do things that your stars already do, but worse at it.

Love doesn't need to average 25 but he should be somewhere around 20 like many other winning 3rd options and he should be AVAILABLE to step up and provide a big scoring punch whenever needed just like Manu, Allen, Klay, Worthy, and many more - unfortunately, Love wasn't available because he'd been reduced to spot-up shooter and sometimes a 12 ppg player - his capacity to step up has been taken away.. He gave his prime years to bron-ball and then bron bounced but Love rebuilt a contender just like the Heat did.. It should also be mentioned that Jamison averaged 20 as third option in 2005 but only 15 alongside Lebron as 2nd option in 2010 (Jamison was averaging 22 right before joining Bron).

Btw, ball movement and rebounds can be done by role players, while scoring is done by stars.

Scoring is the star category and the more of it that someone needs, the more help and salary cap they require - a GM's nightmare is needing a bunch of star scoring help because their franchise player is a spotty jumpshooter and isn't a "closer"... Otoh, they have no problem finding cheap role players that can move the ball or rebound, so they prefer a great jumpshooter that can carry the scoring load (sufficient brand at high volume to beat top teams).

ShawkFactory

08-15-2023, 04:46 PM

Love doesn't need to average 25 but he should be somewhere around 20 like many other winning 3rd options and he should be AVAILABLE to step up and provide a big scoring punch whenever needed just like Manu, Allen, Klay, Worthy, and many more - unfortunately, Love wasn't available because he'd been reduced to spot-up shooter and sometimes a 12 ppg player - his capacity to step up has been taken away.. He gave his prime years to bron-ball and then bron bounced but Love toiled away and rebuilt a contender just like the Heat did.

Btw, ball movement and rebounds can be done by role players, while scoring is done by stars.

Scoring is the star category and the more of it that someone needs, the more help and salary cap they require - a GM's nightmare is needing a bunch of star scoring help because their franchise player is a spotty jumpshooter and isn't a "closer"... Otoh, they have no problem finding cheap role players that can move the ball or rebound, so they prefer a great jumpshooter that can carry the scoring load (sufficient brand at high volume to beat top teams).

Lol we've had this exact argument before and you've repeated yourself while ignoring what I said, but I'll repeat myself again: All of the third options that you listed are elite jumpshooters/spot up shooters. In order to score 20ppg or be explosive in a 3rd option role you have to be because you won't be creating your own offense very much.

You actually helped my point. I'd rather my 3rd option be Klay or Celtics Ray Allen than Kevin Love for SURE. Again...even if Love would be more dominant as a first.

3ba11

08-15-2023, 04:48 PM

Lol we've had this exact argument before and you've repeated yourself while ignoring what I said, but I'll repeat myself again: All of the third options that you listed are elite jumpshooters/spot up shooters. In order to score 20ppg or be explosive in a 3rd option role you have to be because you won't be creating your own offense very much.

And apparently you're forgetting my responses that Worthy and even Jamison were 20 ppg third options, so this idea that only jumpshooters do it is wrong.

Jamison literally proved that he could get 20 as third option, but then got 15 as 2nd option alongside Lebron

The idea that only jumpshooters can score a lot as 3rd option is based on nothing but your delusion and desire for it to be true

And Love is a jumpshooter, yet he was still reduced to nothing alongside Lebron.

Axe

08-15-2023, 04:55 PM

Op sucks balls.

ShawkFactory

08-15-2023, 05:41 PM

And apparently you're forgetting my responses that Worthy and even Jamison were 20 ppg third options, so this idea that only jumpshooters do it is wrong.

Jamison literally proved that he could get 20 as third option, but then got 15 as 2nd option alongside Lebron

The idea that only jumpshooters can score a lot as 3rd option is based on nothing but your delusion and desire for it to be true

Ah yes and if you remember my response to that (I'm sure you do) it this: James Worthy, while not taking many 3s WAS a very good jump shooter in the vein or guys like Jordan, Dantley, King, etc. in the 80s. He was also by and large not a 3rd option. By the time his scoring numbers increased, Kareem had regressed.

Jamison was a lucky regular season one-off who's 20ppg 3rd option scoring didn't remotely translate in the playoffs. That and the Wizards that year were dead last in team assists, a number you regularly tout to determine excellent ball movement. So that one is lucky for you.

Plus Magic is someone you regularly denigrate because he did the same thing as Lebron, saying that he was greatly helped out by dominant scorers...and frequently highlight Worthy to make your case (who you have maintained is better than Pippen).

So yea...these are lucky one-offs for you (incorrect at that) and do nothing to help your narrative whatsoever.

PejaTheSerbSnip

08-15-2023, 05:43 PM

There's a depth of understanding on this specific topic that you're lacking here.. I will try to help you with it.

Forget the Finals for a moment... the majority of teams in the league DESTROYED the Bulls from the 3 thru 12 spots because

Interesting.

Pray tell, if you took Ewing off the Knicks, would they have won 55 games in the 90’s?

How about the bulk of the other great teams? Do they win 55 games without their best player?

they had actual scoring options, all-nba or all-star players at 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th option.

So, more accolade-gazing?

Here's an example... After Ewing and Starks, the Knicks had 5 guys that were equal or superior to Horace - this includes Mason (1x All-NBA), Mark Jackson (1x all-star and all-time floor general), X-Man (1x all-star that destroyed Pippen in the 92' ECSF and dominated the 87' Lakers in the WCF as 1st option), Oakley (1x all-star), Charles Smith (1x all-star).. They also had Greg Anthony and Gerald Wilkins, who would've been the 4th to 6th best players on the Bulls.

Several things to pick apart here (the fact that I specifically cited finals opponents notwithstanding).

Firstly, not all of these players even overlapped. For instance, Smith and Jackson were never on the roster at the same time. Neither were Wilkins and Jackson.

Anthony overlapped with Wilkins and Smith for a whopping one whole year.

McDaniel only played with the Knicks in ‘91-‘92. In that year they were 51-31 and barely got by a declining Pistons team in the first round.

If I were to employ the same tactic, I can easily lump Kukoc in with Grant (only played one year), Grant with Rodman (didn’t play at all), etc, all to inflate how many great players were on that team. I can plausibly then say that the Bulls had Grant, Pippen, Armstrong, Kukoc, Harper and Kerr.

But of course, they never employed all of those players at the same time.

It’s an extremely deceptive tactic but I could do it, and it would be identical to what you’re doing.

Secondly, Smith’s best years were with the Clippers.

Here were his statistics with the Knicks:

11/5/1 on 46/26/77, .107 WS/48, -0.8 BPM.

Importantly, he was not an all-league defender like Grant was.

For as stacked as these squads supposedly were, a full-strength Knicks team only won 55 games 4 times in the 90’s, and barely scraped by a Jordan-less Bulls in 7.

Also interesting that Oakley is now being given his flowers; when compared to Ilgauskas, he was a mere role player.

All very interesting. More interesting stuff below:

So the Knicks' roster was FAR SUPERIOR to the Bulls

You list all of these players, buffet-line style, without accounting for one very important thing: none of them ever led the Knicks to an elite offensive rating in their golden years.

‘91-‘92: 12th of 27 in ortg
‘92-‘93: 22nd of 27
‘93-‘94: 16th of 27
‘94-‘95: 16th of 27
‘95-‘96: 21st of 29
‘96-‘97: 25th of 29

…these are rates comparable to (and actually slightly worse than) the Pippen-led Bulls

They were elite on the side of the ball that you constantly devalue: defence.

Take Ewing off that Knicks team and they plummet even further.

and that's just 1 example of a 2nd Round or ECF opponent.. Most teams have similar talent edges like the Pistons, Pacers or Magic.

Let’s go through them.

After Isiah and Dumars, the Pistons had 3x all-stars like Laimbeer, Aguirre or Rodman that were easily superior to Horace, while Vinnie Johnson, Edwards and Salley were superior role players than the Bulls had (Paxson, Cartwright, etc)..

They were most decidedly not superior to the Bulls’ cast when they hit championship form, which is the operative comparison here. I have always maintained Jordan’s casts were underwhelming before ‘91. Alas, that’s not what we’re discussing.

Anywho, the Pistons won 50 games in ‘91 and their supporting cast was badly, badly out-played by Jordan’s.

To wit:

Pippen - 22/8/5/3/2 on 56% TS and a 20.2 Gsc, a truly remarkable all-around performance
Grant - 14/8/2 on 71% TS and great defence
Cartwright - 10/5 on 59% TS
Armstrong - 7/3/4 on 65% TS

Feel free to compare them to the Piston’s #2-5’s (whoever you believe they are, given that some are torn between Dumars and Isiah for #1).

Please do, and tell me what you find.

And look at the 96' Magic or 98' Pacers - after Reggie Miller and Rik Smits, the Pacers had Chris Mullin, Mark Jackson, Derrick McKey (all-defender), Jalen Rose (24 ppg in 2000 Finals), Best and the Davis Brothers - that's completely STACKED compared to the Bulls..

Again, several things to address:

Rose’s performance in the 2000 finals had zero bearing on how he played in 1998. He was a 6th man (if that). He didn’t blossom until ‘99-‘00.

Secondly, let’s exclude Miller and Jordan. Here’s what remains of their respective rotations:

Pippen-Kukoc-Longley-Harper-Kerr-Wennington

vs.

Smits-Davis-Davis-Jackson-Davis-Mullin (an ancient one mind you)-Rose-McKey

I do not see a big difference on the aggregate whatsoever. Whichever way you lean, it was more than enough help for the GOAT to win with.

The 96' Magic were also more stacked.

Perhaps if you steadfastly hold to there only being one side of the ball, as is your wont.

The ‘96 Bulls were one of the best defensive teams of all time. The ‘96 Magic were middling defensively.

Additionally, Grant played 30 minutes in the entire series. Anderson missed a game as well. They had to rely on Brooks Thompson and Anthony Bowie for minutes, two fringe players who should’ve seen their loads lighten in the playoffs.

The Bulls, conversely, had a clean bill of health.

Which of the following statements were false? Why?

Now let's look at the Finals.

Let’s.

PejaTheSerbSnip

08-15-2023, 05:44 PM

After Magic and Worthy, Vlade and Sam Perkins were sophisticated bigs that destroyed Horace Grant as a player and in the 91' Finals..

Another clever tactic: just omit #2 options when we know Pippen outplayed Worthy, LOL:

Pippen - 21/9/7/2/1 on 53% TS, at worst the third best player in the series

Worthy - 19/3/2 on 50% TS, missed a game

Yeah, no vested interest in starting from the third options. :roll: :roll:

Again, I’ll ask the time-honoured question: where, specifically, have I erred?

Moving on, you failed to acknowledge Grant and Paxson’s great play in those finals:

Grant - 15/8/2/2 on 65% TS
Paxson - 14/2/3 on 67% TS

Compares pretty nicely with Divac and Perkins:

Divac - 19/9/2/2 on 61% TS
Perkins - 17/8/1 on 51% TS

…not seeing this big talent deficit. At all.

Again, every other contender had actual scorers and multiple time all-stars

These are just labels that you choose to reify. They carry no inherent value. How did all of these players actually play in the series’ that are under examination? How do they fit with their #1’s? All of these are more germane to the question of who had the better supporting cast.

Byron Scott destroys Paxson...

Scott in the ‘91 finals: 5/2/2 on 40% TS in 35 mpg.

Elden Campbell came off the bench in that stacked frontcourt but compares well to Horace..

This was Campbell’s rookie year, and he notched 7 minutes a contest in the regular season. He only suited up in 3 of the 5 games, blossomed some three years later and was never the defensive presence or glue guy that Grant was.

We might as well say a 40 year old Parish was unfair help for Jordan in ‘97. After all, his minutes per game was higher than rookie Campbell’s.

Rookie Pippen came off the bench for the Bulls too, must’ve been due to them having an embarrassment of riches :roll:

This is one of your more embarrassing comparisons. Please keep going.

It's a joke.. the Lakers had good players and scorers after Magic and Worthy, while the Bulls had role players and robots.

All addressed. How did all of these players perform? Why was Pippen omitted?

The 92' Blazers and 93' Suns had the biggest talent edges over the Bulls...

The ‘93 Suns were likely the closest, and had a better offensive supporting cast. That’s as far as I’ll go. At very worst, Jordan had a better supporting cast in 4 or 5 of his 6 finals, and more than enough to win in all 6 given his GOAThood.

Ainge and Cliff Robinson were coming off the Blazers' bench,

Yet you never make this same defence of Harper, who went from 22 ppg on a crappy team to 7-8 on a good one, just as Ainge saw a large decrease in volume when hopping from a 23 win perennially losing Kings team to a finals contender?

Why is that? I wonder. :roll:

Ainge was, at that point, a decent 6th man. He is not a star on another team.

while they had 4 guys with significant all-star experience

in the starting lineup along with 20 ppg Jerome Kersey to round out the stackage...

They had a good and balanced roster. Regardless, the Bulls had a sizeable edge in the #2 and #3 slots. Some of these players (like Williams) made their last all-star games years before ‘92, while Duckworth was essentially an all-star in name only, who regressed after ‘91 and averaged 11 points on 10 shots a game.

Try again.

And you already agree on the 93' Suns..

What I said was that they likely had the more potent offensive supporting cast. That’s the best steelman I can muster up.

The 96' Sonics obviously destroy the Bulls with All-NBA Schrempf at 3rd option (similar to the Knicks Mason or the Heat's Mashburn - most contenders had all-nba or multiple-time all-stars at 3rd option).

‘fraid not.

Kemp-Schrempf-Hawkins-Perkins-McMillan-Askew

and

Pippen-Rodman-Kukoc-Harper-Kerr-Longley

Are comparable rotations. More than enough for the GOAT to get by with.

TLDR: Jordan faced talent deficits throughout the playoffs, while it's uncertain whether Lebron's super-teams ever faced a talent deficit -

TIL it was unclear that LeBron faced a chasmal talent deficit in, among others:

- 2007
- 2014 (oldest, worst rebounding team in the league).
- 2015 (both Love and Irving were out).
- 2017 (as clear a finals defensive mismatch as you’ll get).
- 2018 (ditto, and now with a historic offensive gap to boot).

PejaTheSerbSnip

08-15-2023, 05:59 PM

Who led the Bulls in defensive rebounding for the 1997 Playoffs? Jordan or Rodman?

Very predictably, you flew past my point: any player comes off worse when you pit a weakness of theirs with another players strength.

Whether it’s LeBron’s off-ball ability being compared to Jordan’s, or Jordan’s rebounding being compared to Rodman’s, or Kobe’s long-range shooting compared to Curry’s…it’s an incredibly insidious way of framing comparisons. That you can cherry-pick a specific time Jordan did a subset of a thing better than Rodman (Per 100 rebounding #’s in the ‘97 playoffs: Rodman 16.8, Jordan 10.5) doesn’t obscure this.

Keep trying.

In the 97' Playoffs, Jordan led the Bulls in defensive rebounding, assists, steals and he was co-leader in BPG with pippen....

He did all this while carrying the scoring load throughout the playoffs (defeating max defensive attention), which Lebron never did..

And Pippen outpaced Jordan 20 out of 24 times in the non-scoring statistical categories during their 6 finals together.

There is more to basketball than shooting.

Lebron never carried any category except the one you never want to carry - assists - hogging the assists, aka no ball movement and therefore massive team assist deficits in the Finals

LeBron led the Cavs in all 5 major statistical categories in the ‘16 finals, against a 73 win team.

Btw, Rodman averaged 3/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs and wasn't the starter for the 98' Playoffs -

While being pivotal to their success in ‘96, utterly putting the clamps on Mourning in ‘97 (something very heavily attested to, and something you’ve consistently ignored), and frustrating Malone across two finals series.

To be a broken record: more to basketball than scoring. We will explore this further.

Additionally, you do not apply this same standard of ****-retentive nitpickyness to Jordan’s opponents, and never will.

You flatly listed a bunch of Pistons players in ‘91, when they played poorly.

You listed Scott in the ‘91 finals, who put up 5 points on 30% shooting in 35 minutes per game.

Or how about Hornacek?

12 ppg on 51% TS in the ‘97 finals, 11 ppg on 50% TS in the ‘98 finals.

Did the Jazz push the series close in-spite of the poor play of their third best player?

How about Stockton, who averaged 10 points a game in the ‘98 finals.

Literally no one on the Jazz cleared 11 points a game in the ‘98 finals.

Uniform standards to be applied? No way, no how.

jlip

08-15-2023, 06:22 PM

Is Peja the old poster formerly known as tharegul8r?

PejaTheSerbSnip

08-15-2023, 06:26 PM

NBA.com

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/traditional?SeasonType=Playoffs&Season=2019-20&PORound=4&Period=4

here's lebron's turnover averages in the 4th quarter of each Finals:

2007: 1.8
2011: 1.2
2012: 1.2
2013: 0.9
2014: 0.6
2015: 0.7
2016: 1.2
2017: 0.4
2018: 1.0
2020: 1.3

Here's Jordan's

1997: 0.5
1998: 0.2

So Lebroh averages 1.03 turnovers in the 4th quarter of Finals games (4 TO per game player, aka Westbrook), while the GOAT averages 0.35 turnovers in the 4th (1.4 TO per game player in clutch-time, aka bowdown).

Since Lebron averages 3 times as many turnovers in the 4th (1.03 to 0.35) without a commensurate advantage in shooting efficiency and FAR lower actual scoring production,

Thank you.

So, in sum:

- LeBron had a higher TS%
- LeBron had far higher assist and rebounding rates
- Jordan didn’t come close to doubling his scoring output, although does have the scoring advantage
- Their exact offensive ratings are still anyones guess

All of this is a massive U-turn from the very plainly-worded initial statement that “Old Jordan” (with ‘96 omitted, which I’ll rectify soon) doubled LeBron’s finals scoring output on better efficiency.

we can conclude that Lebron has lower ORTG in the 4th quarter of the Finals, which is commensurate with his regular season or playoff careers.

No, we very much can’t. Jordan amassed 23 turnovers in 12 games over those two finals (where his combined ortg was 112), so his 4th q turnover stats amount to being a rounding error in the grand scheme of things. On the other side of the coin, LeBron’s finals turnover rate isn’t unduly higher than his *overall* finals tpg, so there’s no skew to speak of. Purely from eyeballing things, I’d estimate Jordan’s offensive rating to be anywhere from 111-114, while LeBron’s is somewhere from 113-115.

If I’m off, feel free to calculate their offensive ratings, and show your work.

Now where's your source on the true shooting in the 4th quarter of Finals?

I just told you, and told you multiple times before then: I manually went through each game and tallied it. Feel free to do the same for their offensive ratings.

Not sure how many more times I need to repeat myself, but if these last few months are any indication, I won’t tire of it.

PejaTheSerbSnip

08-15-2023, 06:29 PM

Is Peja the old poster formerly known as tharegul8r?

Nah, no alts. Never found this place particularly interesting, due in large part to the oldheads. Finally squeezed some fun out of my membership. I post on a Tennis Forum and used to frequent Baseball Fever, but that about covers it.

The average basketball fan, in all honesty, kind of blows…don’t mean to sound elitist, but it is what it is. Doesn’t help that I was spoiled by baseball being my first sporting love, where the fans tend to be ten-fold more informed and sober-minded.

PejaTheSerbSnip

08-15-2023, 06:36 PM

Kevin Love as a 3rd option was never going to score 25 points a game. That would be impossible regardless of who he's playing with ever

Yeah, this.

Even the off ball-heavy (at least relatively speaking) triumvirate of Durant, Curry and Thompson couldn’t all average 25 apiece in ‘16-‘17. Both Curry and Durant saw dips in their scoring from the previous year, and Durant’s late-season injury is part of what pushed Curry to cross the 25 point barrier (he was at 24.8 before that).

But these jokers expect a trio of LeBron/Wade/Bosh or LeBron/Love/Kyrie to all come close to maintaining their averages. Lunacy.

ShawkFactory

08-15-2023, 06:46 PM

Yeah, this.

Even the off ball-heavy (at least relatively speaking) triumvirate of Durant, Curry and Thompson couldn’t all average 25 apiece in ‘16-‘17. Both Curry and Durant saw dips in their scoring from the previous year, and Durant’s late-season injury is part of what pushed Curry to cross the 25 point barrier (he was at 24.8 before that).

But these jokers expect a trio of LeBron/Wade/Bosh or LeBron/Love/Kyrie to all come close to maintaining their averages. Lunacy.

I don't think anyone actually expects it once they dive a little deeper. But the Lebron trolling either prevents them from wanting to or being able to. Either way...meh.

3ba11

08-15-2023, 07:05 PM

- LeBron had a higher TS%
- LeBron had far higher assist and rebounding rates
- Jordan didn’t come close to doubling his scoring output, although does have the scoring advantage
- Their exact offensive ratings are still anyones guess

Ewing had higher rebounding rates... So did Karl Malone..

It means nothing and isn't a valid response to Lebron's vastly inferior scoring and clutch ability.

Regarding the assists, we know that Lebron's teams had massive assist deficits in the Finals, so who cares about personal APG - it means literally nothing when comparing 2 players, unless one of the players isn't a good passer.. Super-high APG often means Luka-style ball-domination and inferior brand of ball.. It's completely irrelevant to comparing 2 players.

But if you want to compare APG, we know that MJ had higher APG for the first 9 years of their playoff career (85-93' vs 06-14') before Curry's spacing era made offense easier for everyone.. Jordan was a great passer and peaked as a passer higher than Lebron did (91' Finals..... or the pre-Curry era in the playoffs where MJ averaged more APG.... or 30/9/11 at PG is better than anything Lebron did in the RS)

so his 4th q turnover stats amount to being a rounding error in the grand scheme of things.

It's a rounding error that Jordan averaged 0.35 turnovers in the 4th compared to 1.03 for Lebron?

So Lebron averaged 3 times as many turnovers, but that's a rounding error?

You're drowning.

Lebron's vastly higher turnovers gives him lower ORTG when we consider his far lower scoring production with only a small TS edge - this dynamic of high turnovers and lower scoring without much edge in TS is the story of Lebron's career compared to Jordan.. You're trying to defy this and it's absurd. .

I’d estimate Jordan’s offensive rating to be anywhere from 111-114, while LeBron’s is somewhere from 113-115.

That would be contrary to their entire regular season and playoff careers - Jordan's ORTG was always higher and around 118 because he scored MUCh more with similar true shooting and far lower turnovers.. I'm informing you of the statistical record here - there's no refuting this.

So you're just on Lebron Delusion planet right now...

You probably thought that you were winning the debate.. Now you're drowning by trying to argue that a STAPLE for jordan over lebron (ortg) infact goes in Lebron's favor in the 4th quarter (despite the massive turnover gap and massive scoring deficit with similar TS).. You're done

Jasper

08-15-2023, 07:09 PM

3ball is very insightful :pimp:

3ba11

08-15-2023, 07:14 PM

I don't think anyone actually expects it once they dive a little deeper. But the Lebron trolling either prevents them from wanting to or being able to. Either way...meh.

You guys are just making something up and then arguing against it because you can't argue against the actual point being made

No one said that 3rd options should average 25

But they can average 18-22 and have star roles - that's the key - Manu, Allen, Worthy, Jamison - these guys had star roles at 3rd option, while Lebron's 3rd options are reduced to spot-up role, so their ability to step up has been taken away and his teams never reach anywhere NEAR their expectation.. .3 franchise guys on 1 team = "not 6, not 7" expectation but Lebron went 2/4 including goat choke and record loss - that's the worst anyone can do.. and he was a miracle away from 1/4.

ShawkFactory

08-15-2023, 07:26 PM

You guys are just making something up and then arguing against it because you can't argue against the actual point being made

No one said that 3rd options should average 25

But they can average 18-22 and have star roles - that's the key - Manu, Allen, Worthy, Jamison - these guys had star roles at 3rd option, while Lebron's 3rd options are reduced to spot-up role, so their ability to step up has been taken away and his teams never reach anywhere NEAR their expectation.. .3 franchise guys on 1 team = "not 6, not 7" expectation but Lebron went 2/4 including goat choke and record loss - that's the worst anyone can do.. and he was a miracle away from 1/4.

Settle down :lol

Jamison was no star.

Also, please give me a playoff series where any of those guys you listed scored 20 ppg while being the 3rd leading scorer on the team. I'm sure Worthy did it maybe once while Magic and Kareem scored 20 themselves. But I'd like to see one for Manu, Allen, or Jamison. Just ONE.

PejaTheSerbSnip

08-15-2023, 08:14 PM

Ewing had higher rebounding rates... So did Karl Malone..

And so did LeBron James.

It means nothing and isn't a valid response to Lebron's vastly inferior scoring and clutch ability.

What it

Regarding the assists, we know that Lebron's teams had massive assist deficits in the Finals, so who cares about personal APG -

The Bulls were out-assisted in both finals against the Jazz.

LeBron’s teams were out-assisted in 4 out of 10 finals, and only badly so when they were facing a massive talent deficit, which the Bulls never faced…so yet again this is not a like-for-like comparison. The fact of the matter is that Jordan did cede some playmaking duties in ‘98.

it means literally nothing when comparing 2 players, unless one of the players isn't a good passer.. Super-high APG often means Luka-style ball-domination and inferior brand of ball.. It's completely irrelevant to comparing 2 players.

But if you want to compare APG, we know that MJ had higher APG for the first 9 years of their playoff career (85-93' vs 06-14')
before Curry's spacing era made offense easier for everyone..

Already addressed in full, and this is a lie.

Assist rates didn’t skyrocket in 2015…LeBron’s per-100’s did. That’s why omitted them.

Team-wide APG’s increased significantly in ‘19, NOT before then, and were considerably higher from ‘85-‘93 than they were from ‘06-‘14.

See here:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

The vast majority of the crap you spew, blessedly, is only a one-minute fact-check away from being debunked.

Jordan was a great passer and peaked as a passer higher than Lebron did (91' Finals..... or the pre-Curry era in the playoffs where MJ averaged more APG.... or 30/9/11 at PG is better than anything Lebron did in the RS)

It is absolutely one of the GOAT finals series.

It's a rounding error that Jordan averaged 0.35 turnovers in the 4th compared to 1.03 for Lebron?

So Lebron averaged 3 times as many turnovers, but that's a rounding error?

You're drowning.

You need to book an appointment with a neurologist.

No, dummy, that’s not the rounding error. :roll:

The rounding error is the extent to which the turnover differential contributes to their respective 4th quarter offensive ratings.

Jordan averaged a 112ortg in ‘97 and ‘98, and only about 1.9 tpg overall. His 4 turnovers across those 11 fourth quarters is 0.364, which would translate to 1.5 across 4 quarters.

LeBron, conversely, does not seek a huge turnover spike in 4th quarters.

All of which is to say that their respective offensive ratings are very much up for debate.

Lebron's vastly higher turnovers gives him lower ORTG when we consider his far lower scoring production with only a small TS edge -

Prove it. I will concede any mistakes I make. To the naked eye it does not appear as if Jordan has a higher offensive rating in fourth quarters in ‘97 and ‘98 than LeBron does in all finals 4th quarters…despite James facing a set of opponents that had, on average, a lower defensive rating, all the while contending with a talent deficit most of the time (which is again starkly opposed to Jordan).

this dynamic of high turnovers and lower scoring without much edge in TS is the story of Lebron's career compared to Jordan.. You're trying to defy this and it's absurd. .

Covered many, many times over. Prove it.

That would be contrary to their entire regular season and playoff careers - Jordan's ORTG was always higher and around 118

This isn’t even a good red herring. Are you losing steam already? So early?

Firstly, LeBron’s career play-off ortg is 117. Jordan’s is 118.

Secondly, this is completely irrelevant to their respective finals ratings. Jordan’s finals offensive rating was 112 combined, in ‘97 and ‘98.

Total irrelevancies.

because he scored MUCh more with similar true shooting and far lower turnovers.. I'm informing you of the statistical record here - there's no refuting this.

Refused effortlessly, I’m sorry to say.

You probably thought that you were winning the debate.. Now you're drowning by trying to argue that a STAPLE for jordan over lebron (ortg)

Louder, for those in the back:

LeBron’s career playoff ortg is 117 (drtg is 103).

Jordan’s career playoff ortg is 118 (drtg is 104).

In the span of time between their first and last finals appearance:

Jordan: 118 ortg

LeBron: 117 ortg

Over the course of their primes:

Jordan, ‘88-‘93: 120 ortg

LeBron, ‘09-‘20: 119 ortg

It isn’t difficult to gerrymander comparisons whichever way a bad-faith artist wants the conversation to go.

Charlie Sheen

08-16-2023, 02:22 PM

Magic and the showtime Lakers will never be a good comparison to Lebron because they had something Lebron never did... long term championship roster continuity.

Outside of Miami he never had the organizational structure Jordan had with PJax and the bulls.

PejaTheSerbSnip

08-17-2023, 07:49 PM

Pleased to see these ignored. Will take it as an admission of defeat. For posterity:

Another clever tactic: just omit #2 options when we know Pippen outplayed Worthy, LOL:

Pippen - 21/9/7/2/1 on 53% TS, at worst the third best player in the series

Worthy - 19/3/2 on 50% TS, missed a game

Yeah, no vested interest in starting from the third options. :roll: :roll:

Again, I’ll ask the time-honoured question: where, specifically, have I erred?

Moving on, you failed to acknowledge Grant and Paxson’s great play in those finals:

Grant - 15/8/2/2 on 65% TS
Paxson - 14/2/3 on 67% TS

Compares pretty nicely with Divac and Perkins:

Divac - 19/9/2/2 on 61% TS
Perkins - 17/8/1 on 51% TS

…not seeing this big talent deficit. At all.

These are just labels that you choose to reify. They carry no inherent value. How did all of these players actually play in the series’ that are under examination? How do they fit with their #1’s? All of these are more germane to the question of who had the better supporting cast.

Scott in the ‘91 finals: 5/2/2 on 40% TS in 35 mpg.

This was Campbell’s rookie year, and he notched 7 minutes a contest in the regular season. He only suited up in 3 of the 5 games, blossomed some three years later and was never the defensive presence or glue guy that Grant was.

We might as well say a 40 year old Parish was unfair help for Jordan in ‘97. After all, his minutes per game was higher than rookie Campbell’s.

Rookie Pippen came off the bench for the Bulls too, must’ve been due to them having an embarrassment of riches :roll:

This is one of your more embarrassing comparisons. Please keep going.

All addressed. How did all of these players perform? Why was Pippen omitted?

The ‘93 Suns were likely the closest, and had a better offensive supporting cast. That’s as far as I’ll go. At very worst, Jordan had a better supporting cast in 4 or 5 of his 6 finals, and more than enough to win in all 6 given his GOAThood.

Yet you never make this same defence of Harper, who went from 22 ppg on a crappy team to 7-8 on a good one, just as Ainge saw a large decrease in volume when hopping from a 23 win perennially losing Kings team to a finals contender?

Why is that? I wonder. :roll:

Ainge was, at that point, a decent 6th man. He is not a star on another team.

They had a good and balanced roster. Regardless, the Bulls had a sizeable edge in the #2 and #3 slots. Some of these players (like Williams) made their last all-star games years before ‘92, while Duckworth was essentially an all-star in name only, who regressed after ‘91 and averaged 11 points on 10 shots a game.

Try again.

What I said was that they likely had the more potent offensive supporting cast. That’s the best steelman I can muster up.

‘fraid not.

Kemp-Schrempf-Hawkins-Perkins-McMillan-Askew

and

Pippen-Rodman-Kukoc-Harper-Kerr-Longley

Are comparable rotations. More than enough for the GOAT to get by with.

TIL it was unclear that LeBron faced a chasmal talent deficit in, among others:

- 2007
- 2014 (oldest, worst rebounding team in the league).
- 2015 (both Love and Irving were out).
- 2017 (as clear a finals defensive mismatch as you’ll get).
- 2018 (ditto, and now with a historic offensive gap to boot).

/

Very predictably, you flew past my point: any player comes off worse when you pit a weakness of theirs with another players strength.

Whether it’s LeBron’s off-ball ability being compared to Jordan’s, or Jordan’s rebounding being compared to Rodman’s, or Kobe’s long-range shooting compared to Curry’s…it’s an incredibly insidious way of framing comparisons. That you can cherry-pick a specific time Jordan did a subset of a thing better than Rodman (Per 100 rebounding #’s in the ‘97 playoffs: Rodman 16.8, Jordan 10.5) doesn’t obscure this.

Keep trying.

And Pippen outpaced Jordan 20 out of 24 times in the non-scoring statistical categories during their 6 finals together.

There is more to basketball than shooting.

LeBron led the Cavs in all 5 major statistical categories in the ‘16 finals, against a 73 win team.

While being pivotal to their success in ‘96, utterly putting the clamps on Mourning in ‘97 (something very heavily attested to, and something you’ve consistently ignored), and frustrating Malone across two finals series.

To be a broken record: more to basketball than scoring. We will explore this further.

Additionally, you do not apply this same standard of ****-retentive nitpickyness to Jordan’s opponents, and never will.

You flatly listed a bunch of Pistons players in ‘91, when they played poorly.

You listed Scott in the ‘91 finals, who put up 5 points on 30% shooting in 35 minutes per game.

Or how about Hornacek?

12 ppg on 51% TS in the ‘97 finals, 11 ppg on 50% TS in the ‘98 finals.

Did the Jazz push the series close in-spite of the poor play of their third best player?

How about Stockton, who averaged 10 points a game in the ‘98 finals.

Literally no one on the Jazz cleared 11 points a game in the ‘98 finals.

Uniform standards to be applied? No way, no how.