So turns out MJ also has the GOAT plus-minus?

[dankok8]

We now have almost his entire career playoff ON-OFF. Missing only 1986 (3 games), 1987 (3 games) and 1995 (10 games). All the data from super reliable sources too.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2314587

On: +8.38
Off: -8.56 [note: it is -8.83 if using the alternate value for 1990]
On-Off: +16.94 [note: it is +17.21 if using the alternate value for 1990]

+17 ON-OFF is freaking bonkers! :lol

When factoring in the missing games it probably goes down a bit because he lost 3/4 series in 1986/1987/1995 but I doubt it ends up below +14 or +15 which is still the highest playoff ON-OFF of any modern superstar I know.

[Soundwave]

Can you list some other players ON-OFF plus minus? Like LeBron, Kobe, Duncan, Steph, etc.

[1987_Lakers]

We now have almost his entire career playoff ON-OFF. Missing only 1986 (3 games), 1987 (3 games) and 1995 (10 games). All the data from super reliable sources too.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2314587

On: +8.38
Off: -8.56 [note: it is -8.83 if using the alternate value for 1990]
On-Off: +16.94 [note: it is +17.21 if using the alternate value for 1990]

+17 ON-OFF is freaking bonkers! :lol

When factoring in the missing games it probably goes down a bit because he lost 3/4 series in 1986/1987/1995 but I doubt it ends up below +14 or +15 which is still the highest playoff ON-OFF of any modern superstar I know.

How convenient. two years when he got swept and another year where he lost.

[dankok8]

How convenient. two years when he got swept and another year where he lost.

That's why I said his total career ON-OFF is probably like +14 or +15. But that's still probably the highest of any recent superstar.

Career Playoff ON-OFF 1997-present:
Stephen Curry +12.0
Shaquille O'Neal +11.7
Lebron James +10.2
Kobe Bryant +7.6
Tim Duncan +7.5

[SouBeachTalents]

That's why I said his total career ON-OFF is probably like +14 or +15. But that's still probably the highest of any recent superstar.

Career Playoff ON-OFF 1997-present:
Stephen Curry +12.0
Shaquille O'Neal +11.7
Lebron James +10.2
Kobe Bryant +7.6
Tim Duncan +7.5
Where did you find the on-off for everyone else, you have a link?

[dankok8]

Where did you find the on-off for everyone else, you have a link?

Basketball-Reference pages for each player under Play-by-Play.

[jlip]

I don't have time to look it up right now, but didn't Thinking Basketball do a video last year regarding this? I believe his conclusion was while MJ's on/ off, +/-, or some stat like that was all time great it was slightly behind Shaq and LeBron. Again, I can't remember the details.

[1987_Lakers]

I don't have time to look it up right now, but didn't Thinking Basketball do a video last year regarding this? I believe his conclusion was while MJ's on/ off, +/-, or some stat like that was all time great it was slightly behind Shaq and LeBron. Again, I can't remember the details.

Yea, unless we can get an official stat on this, alot of this stuff is "He said, she said".

[SouBeachTalents]

Looking at some other players, numbers that surprised/amused me

Garnett's career playoff on-off is +14.5

Jokic was only a +2 during his title run

Durant had a -52.9 in the Celtics series in 2022

[sdot_thadon]

Do we these numbers for Guys like magic, bird, Wilt, Russell etc? If not he's just the goat of an incomplete data set lol.

[Charlie Sheen]

We now have almost his entire career playoff ON-OFF. Missing only 1986 (3 games), 1987 (3 games) and 1995 (10 games). All the data from super reliable sources too.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2314587

On: +8.38
Off: -8.56 [note: it is -8.83 if using the alternate value for 1990]
On-Off: +16.94 [note: it is +17.21 if using the alternate value for 1990]

+17 ON-OFF is freaking bonkers! :lol

When factoring in the missing games it probably goes down a bit because he lost 3/4 series in 1986/1987/1995 but I doubt it ends up below +14 or +15 which is still the highest playoff ON-OFF of any modern superstar I know.

Why is it bonkers? What do you think this on-off stat is telling you?

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Looking at some other players, numbers that surprised/amused me

Garnett's career playoff on-off is +14.5

Jokic was only a +2 during his title run

Durant had a -52.9 in the Celtics series in 2022


Embiid was something like +95 on and -100 off against the Raps.

[90sgoat]

I'm not sure about the On-Off stat being that useful.

It seems to slant towards players who play a lot of minutes and have good starting rotations, or rather, teams that stack their good players with their superstar, because they play many minutes. In theory it skews towards old school stars.

Take Jokic and his supposed low +-. I've rarely seen a player be more valuable on the court.

[dankok8]

I don't have time to look it up right now, but didn't Thinking Basketball do a video last year regarding this? I believe his conclusion was while MJ's on/ off, +/-, or some stat like that was all time great it was slightly behind Shaq and LeBron. Again, I can't remember the details.

Yes for single year MJ was behind a few players like Lebron, Shaq and KG but single year is very noisy because of small sample size.

[Axe]

He did so without scottie pippen?

[dankok8]

Do we these numbers for Guys like magic, bird, Wilt, Russell etc? If not he's just the goat of an incomplete data set lol.

Agree 100%. Unfortunately we don't have data for those guys.

[3ba11]

Yea, unless we can get an official stat on this, alot of this stuff is "He said, she said".


Boom

And the Thinking Basketball video wasn't about plus/minus - it was on a version of net rating.

But I don't trust "Thinking Basketball" because they did an analysis where they claimed to know the percentage of times that Jordan missed the open man - this is ridiculous on so many levels from subjectivity to x's and o's (like they know the plays or something)

Then they made a video about how Jordan's 1st three-peat cast was actually pretty good, yet they were still inferior to 25% of NBA casts (75th percentile) - that's complete trash for the greatest winning team of the modern era - there aren't supposed to by ANY casts that are better, let alone 25% of casts.. Then he says the 2nd three-peat casts were much worse than the 1st three-peat but still maintains all along that these are GOOD numbers that make Jordan's cast look good.. So they're misinterpreting their own numbers - a 3-peat cast should not still be worse than 25% of casts.. Peja must have made the video - a massive nothingburger

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Long after retirement and Mike is still catching dubs :applause:

Pretty cool someone went back to track the 80s. About 20 years ago, 1985: Game 3 vs Milwaukee was considered 'rare' among collectors. It was MJ's first playoff win.

[Full Court]

How convenient. two years when he got swept and another year where he lost.

^Advanced stats tend to confuse this poster.


:lol

[dankok8]

^Advanced stats tend to confuse this poster.


:lol

Nah he's right. MJ's total career ON-OFF is probably less like +15 maybe +14. Problem is that's still insanely good.

[ShawkFactory]

Do we these numbers for Guys like magic, bird, Wilt, Russell etc? If not he's just the goat of an incomplete data set lol.

I would imagine that Russell's are crazy. Particularly in the early to mid 60s.

[Full Court]

Nah he's right. MJ's total career ON-OFF is probably less like +15 maybe +14. Problem is that's still insanely good.

Be that as it may, advanced stats really do confuse the crap out of him.

[3ba11]

It's funny how every time a new stat comes out, it shows MJ is #1

Imagine when they first calculated PER - everyone probably gathered in a room when they were going to reveal the numbers - many people probably thought Lebron would be #1 and they surely groaned loudly when MJ was #1

Ditto, BPM, WS, VORP, plus/minus, or things like RAPTOR (https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-07-2021/IPef8B.gif) or adjusted rings (https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-27-2021/YqlZaI.gif)

[SouBeachTalents]

It's funny how every time a new stat comes out, it shows MJ is #1

Imagine when they first calculated PER - everyone probably gathered in a room when they were going to reveal the numbers - many people probably thought Lebron would be #1 and they surely groaned loudly when MJ was #1

Ditto, BPM, WS, VORP, plus/minus, or things like RAPTOR (https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-07-2021/IPef8B.gif) or adjusted rings (https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-27-2021/YqlZaI.gif)
It's funny how most of them have LeBron top 2 also.

[ShawkFactory]

It's funny how most of them have LeBron top 2 also.

And that everyone he argues with agrees that MJ is #1 :lol

Context must be applied after that though. Can't have Lebron that high.

[3ba11]

It's funny how most of them have LeBron top 2 also.


Yes the stats are only part of the story

The other parts are winning (championships and championship record, aka team ceiling) and actual basketball ability (aka skillset and weaknesses, brand of ball, #1 offenses, chemistry, and a strong record of elevating and growing teammates)

So Lebron's stats are #2 but his winning, brand of ball and other factors rank low.. along with his skillset (he has actual weaknesses to his game, aka exploitable)

Based on winning and these other factors, tons of guys can overcome the stat deficit like Duncan, Kobe, Bird, Curry and others

[90sgoat]

MJ played in a time when stats were not considered that important, scoring yes and All Star Games and First Team, but no one gave a crap about advanced stats which didn't even exist.

Lebron has played in an era where he, at least after Miami, was very much aware of his stats and advanced stats and began playing to them.

Lebron went from taking and missing a lot of midrange shots to barely taking any and that was because of analydids.

Lebron has played deliberately to increase his advanced stats.

[Full Court]

And that everyone he argues with agrees that MJ is #1 :lol

Context must be applied after that though. Can't have Lebron that high.

After he retires he'll drop in consensus rankings to a more reasonable rank. Maybe not right away, but once the recency bias wears off and the media gets a new hype job, it'll happen.

[Soundwave]

After he retires he'll drop in consensus rankings to a more reasonable rank. Maybe not right away, but once the recency bias wears off and the media gets a new hype job, it'll happen.

Yup, you're 100% right about that.

The recency bias will wear off and then you'll have younger kids who didn't even see LeBron in his prime ranking him like 4 or 5 overall.

[jlip]

MJ played in a time when stats were not considered that important, scoring yes and All Star Games and First Team, but no one gave a crap about advanced stats which didn't even exist.

Lebron has played in an era where he, at least after Miami, was very much aware of his stats and advanced stats and began playing to them.

Lebron went from taking and missing a lot of midrange shots to barely taking any and that was because of analydids.

Lebron has played deliberately to increase his advanced stats.

This post is reflective of why I have referred to MJ stans as a "cult." In this post you're literally making an unnecessary and meaningless distinction between playing for regular "stats" (i.e. scoring) and playing for "advanced stats", just to (maybe unconsciously) protect the image of your basketball hero, MJ, depicting him as some basketball purist who only played to win and not expressly for personal stats also. Just stop it.

No. He didn't play for advanced stats, since they didn't exist, but he did often selfishly play for the stats that did exist and were important in his era. It is documented over and over again that MJ was conscious of his scoring numbers and deliberately, for the majority of his career, played so that he would be the individual leader in that stat. Both Sam Smith in his Jordan Rules book from the early 90's and Phil Jackson recently, clearly stated that MJ wanted to make certain that he continued to lead the league in scoring each season. For his career, his 22.9 fga per game are the second most in NBA history behind Elgin Baylor. The man led the league in field goals taken every full and healthy season of his career other than his rookie season and the '89 season. You don't do that basically every year unless you're aware of your stats and are playing for them.

Then in the '89 season, it was again documented and verified by his on admission that he was playing for stats as he was routinely checking the scorers' table to see how close to a triple double he was.

Finally, during his last season with the Wizards as the season was coming to a close, and he was in danger of losing his all time career scoring lead to Wilt, ESPN was routinely showing how many points he needed to continue to average to maintain his lead. Anybody who was watching then knows this. Somehow, he averaged just the right amount of points to maintain his all time career scoring lead over Wilt by less than .

Stop the blind Jordan hero worship justifying his conscious intentional stat padding as inconsequential and insignificant while hyperbolizing others who did the same thing as some grave crime against the sport. If MJ would stat pad his scoring numbers and seek out triple doubles in his era, he would also deliberately seek to improve his advanced stats if analytics existed back then.

[Johnny32]

muh childhood hero lil Mikey would never pad his jock, I mean his stats


Selfishness, Part I: Since switching to point guard for the Chicago Bulls, Michael Jordan has become statistic conscious. He has started checking with statisticians to see how close he is to a triple-double. He had a string of seven consecutive triple-doubles broken Friday night.

“The guys at the scorer’s desk let me know what I need,” Jordan said.

So, too, do the Bulls’ assistant coaches.

“They keep reminding me when I get back to the huddle,” Jordan said. “They say, ‘You need three more of this. You need four more of that.’ ”

Jordan is trying to win over voters for the league’s most valuable player award.

“If the way I’m playing now doesn’t convince them I’m a complete player, then I guess nothing will,” Jordan said.



Embarrassingly delusional middle aged fat man is an embarrassingly delusional middle aged fat man.

[Full Court]

Selfishness, Part I: Since switching to point guard for the Chicago Bulls, Michael Jordan has become statistic conscious. He has started checking with statisticians to see how close he is to a triple-double. He had a string of seven consecutive triple-doubles broken Friday night.

“The guys at the scorer’s desk let me know what I need,” Jordan said.

So, too, do the Bulls’ assistant coaches.

“They keep reminding me when I get back to the huddle,” Jordan said. “They say, ‘You need three more of this. You need four more of that.’ ”

Jordan is trying to win over voters for the league’s most valuable player award.

“If the way I’m playing now doesn’t convince them I’m a complete player, then I guess nothing will,” Jordan said.



Embarrassingly delusional middle aged fat man is an embarrassingly delusional middle aged fat man.

Here, educate yourself with this thread and then cry it out:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?509969-Verdict-is-in-Jordan-STILL-consensus-GOAT

:roll:

[John8204]

Who's in the top twenty for this list?

[dankok8]

Lebron stans on RealGM are losing their minds over this. Always fun to watch! :lol

[Wardell Curry]

Imagine when they first calculated PER - everyone probably gathered in a room when they were going to reveal the numbers - many people probably thought Lebron would be #1 and they surely groaned loudly when MJ was #1


Yeah man I just looked it up and you're right. John Hollinger came up with PER in 1995 when LeBron was 10 years old and he was so angry at the outcome of Jordan being ahead of the 4th grade version of LeBron that he eventually quit his website and joined ESPN so that he could shill for LeBron in 2005 once Jordan was safely out of the league and retired for good.

Not only that but I thought I'd clear the air here and say that you're definitely not in dire need of some psychiatric help. You are the most well adjusted poster here.

[guy]

This post is reflective of why I have referred to MJ stans as a "cult." In this post you're literally making an unnecessary and meaningless distinction between playing for regular "stats" (i.e. scoring) and playing for "advanced stats", just to (maybe unconsciously) protect the image of your basketball hero, MJ, depicting him as some basketball purist who only played to win and not expressly for personal stats also. Just stop it.

No. He didn't play for advanced stats, since they didn't exist, but he did often selfishly play for the stats that did exist and were important in his era. It is documented over and over again that MJ was conscious of his scoring numbers and deliberately, for the majority of his career, played so that he would be the individual leader in that stat. Both Sam Smith in his Jordan Rules book from the early 90's and Phil Jackson recently, clearly stated that MJ wanted to make certain that he continued to lead the league in scoring each season. For his career, his 22.9 fga per game are the second most in NBA history behind Elgin Baylor. The man led the league in field goals taken every full and healthy season of his career other than his rookie season and the '89 season. You don't do that basically every year unless you're aware of your stats and are playing for them.

Then in the '89 season, it was again documented and verified by his on admission that he was playing for stats as he was routinely checking the scorers' table to see how close to a triple double he was.

Finally, during his last season with the Wizards as the season was coming to a close, and he was in danger of losing his all time career scoring lead to Wilt, ESPN was routinely showing how many points he needed to continue to average to maintain his lead. Anybody who was watching then knows this. Somehow, he averaged just the right amount of points to maintain his all time career scoring lead over Wilt by less than .

Stop the blind Jordan hero worship justifying his conscious intentional stat padding as inconsequential and insignificant while hyperbolizing others who did the same thing as some grave crime against the sport. If MJ would stat pad his scoring numbers and seek out triple doubles in his era, he would also deliberately seek to improve his advanced stats if analytics existed back then.

Most players are deliberately stat padding or playing to whatever the popular narrative is during their era.

Back then the selfish players were the guys that scored a lot. But for whatever reason, thats still the thought today although its clear the selfish players of the last 15 years or so are the players like Lebron/Harden/Westbrook/Luka - the popular thing now is not to just score alot but fill up all the stats, which these guys clearly do so they rack up a bunch of assists at the same, but they dominate the ball so much many times to a team's detriment. These guys are clearly selfish, but cause of the high assist counts, sometimes are not considered that.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

This post is reflective of why I have referred to MJ stans as a "cult." In this post you're literally making an unnecessary and meaningless distinction between playing for regular "stats" (i.e. scoring) and playing for "advanced stats", just to (maybe unconsciously) protect the image of your basketball hero, MJ, depicting him as some basketball purist who only played to win and not expressly for personal stats also. Just stop it.

No. He didn't play for advanced stats, since they didn't exist, but he did often selfishly play for the stats that did exist and were important in his era. It is documented over and over again that MJ was conscious of his scoring numbers and deliberately, for the majority of his career, played so that he would be the individual leader in that stat. Both Sam Smith in his Jordan Rules book from the early 90's and Phil Jackson recently, clearly stated that MJ wanted to make certain that he continued to lead the league in scoring each season. For his career, his 22.9 fga per game are the second most in NBA history behind Elgin Baylor. The man led the league in field goals taken every full and healthy season of his career other than his rookie season and the '89 season. You don't do that basically every year unless you're aware of your stats and are playing for them.

Then in the '89 season, it was again documented and verified by his on admission that he was playing for stats as he was routinely checking the scorers' table to see how close to a triple double he was.

Finally, during his last season with the Wizards as the season was coming to a close, and he was in danger of losing his all time career scoring lead to Wilt, ESPN was routinely showing how many points he needed to continue to average to maintain his lead. Anybody who was watching then knows this. Somehow, he averaged just the right amount of points to maintain his all time career scoring lead over Wilt by less than .

Stop the blind Jordan hero worship justifying his conscious intentional stat padding as inconsequential and insignificant while hyperbolizing others who did the same thing as some grave crime against the sport. If MJ would stat pad his scoring numbers and seek out triple doubles in his era, he would also deliberately seek to improve his advanced stats if analytics existed back then.


Very well-put.

[90sgoat]

Lebron stans on RealGM are losing their minds over this. Always fun to watch! :lol

Lebron stans on RealGM are the worst.

[3ba11]

Lebron stans on RealGM are losing their minds over this. Always fun to watch! :lol


:yaohappy:

imagine saying to someone "you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong

and it turns out you're the one that's dead wrong and by a bigger margin than you ever imagined was possible.. :oldlol:

Anyone that saw MJ's dominance isn't surprised by any new stats that says he's otherworldly - there was no dominance like Michael's - his massive scoring edge over everyone in history includes incredibly low turnovers and also good efficiency with high jumpshooting volume (which yields ball movement, good fits, and the highest strategic capacity/coaching)

[SouBeachTalents]

:yaohappy:

imagine saying to someone "you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong

and it turns out you're the one that's dead wrong and by a bigger margin than you ever imagined was possible.. :oldlol:
Said without the slightest bit of irony :lol

[3ba11]

Said without the slightest bit of irony :lol


^^^ transparent pretending - longevity crap aside (playing at a lower level for longer), there's no such stats for Lebron that say he's GOAT.. Instead, all the stats say his skillset didn't get the best out of many teammates or have the best brand of ball, while also showing that he underachieves expectation by falling to underdog with favored on-paper talent (preseason favorite)

[3ba11]

his total career ON-OFF is probably like +14 or +15.

Career Playoff ON-OFF 1997-present:
Stephen Curry +12.0
Shaquille O'Neal +11.7
Lebron James +10.2
Kobe Bryant +7.6
Tim Duncan +7.5


Wow

The more we look into the numbers, the more GOAT mj becomes

(and all my claims about MJ are confirmed)

[sdot_thadon]

Most players are deliberately stat padding or playing to whatever the popular narrative is during their era.

Back then the selfish players were the guys that scored a lot. But for whatever reason, thats still the thought today although its clear the selfish players of the last 15 years or so are the players like Lebron/Harden/Westbrook/Luka - the popular thing now is not to just score alot but fill up all the stats, which these guys clearly do so they rack up a bunch of assists at the same, but they dominate the ball so much many times to a team's detriment. These guys are clearly selfish, but cause of the high assist counts, sometimes are not considered that.

Another era switcheroo. Back then high assist was just called point guard/forward lol. No lies in jlip's post at all.

[sdot_thadon]

It's funny how every time a new stat comes out, it shows MJ is #1

Imagine when they first calculated PER - everyone probably gathered in a room when they were going to reveal the numbers - many people probably thought Lebron would be #1 and they surely groaned loudly when MJ was #1

Ditto, BPM, WS, VORP, plus/minus, or things like RAPTOR (https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-07-2021/IPef8B.gif) or adjusted rings (https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-27-2021/YqlZaI.gif) umm, yeah didn't happen that way at all. To the contrary these things were formed around Mjs game being a standard, meaning if they created one that didn't have him at or near the top, it wasn't worth using. Soooo.....

[3ba11]

umm, yeah didn't happen that way at all. To the contrary these things were formed around Mjs game being a standard, meaning if they created one that didn't have him at or near the top, it wasn't worth using. Soooo.....


^^^ see lebron fans will say anything to put him #1

This particular excuse is a new one though.. So apparently there are secret stats that show Lebron is #1 but the statisticians are hiding them.. they only revealed the stats that MJ is leading

that's what you just said...

so apparently when Lebron fans are confronted with the truth of his vast inferiority, they literally invent a conspiracy that indicates they're having psychosis about this issue (delusions)