Who is the least accomplished all time great?

[iamgine]

Someone you consider an all time great but accomplish the least compared to other ATGs.

[Johnny32]

Probably one of the random 90s clowns that the media and MJ fans have desperately tried to hype up over the years as all time greats so they can then turn around and pretend only lil Mikey could have stopped them from winning multiple championships.

[Kblaze8855]

Of people with legendary status it has to be pistol Pete. Not only did he never win anything in his life but his greatest claim to fame is being the scoring leader in college where his dad was his coach and he never so much as made the NCAA tournament. I don’t mean he never won it. He went out there and shot 50 times, padding his stats with his dad letting him do it, and they literally did not even appear in a tournament in his career.

then he goes to the NBA and joins a team I think may have been in the conference finals with a similar core, and was one of three or four All-Stars as they fell off. They wanted to get rid of him, but couldn’t find a taker until his old college area(New Orleans) got an expansion team and needed him for attendance.

He didn’t really do…anything. He just did what nothing he did in a fancy way.

[90sgoat]

Barkley had no rings, no scoring titles, 1 rebounding title, only 1 MVP, but to me he is still a top 10-ish player.

[Xiao Yao You]

Of people with legendary status it has to be pistol Pete. Not only did he never win anything in his life but his greatest claim to fame is being the scoring leader in college where his dad was his coach and he never so much as made the NCAA tournament. I don’t mean he never won it. He went out there and shot 50 times, padding his stats with his dad letting him do it, and they literally did not even appear in a tournament in his career.

then he goes to the NBA and joins a team I think may have been in the conference finals with a similar core, and was one of three or four All-Stars as they fell off. They wanted to get rid of him, but couldn’t find a taker until his old college area(New Orleans) got an expansion team and needed him for attendance.

He didn’t really do…anything. He just did what nothing he did in a fancy way.

yet you'd put ahead of Gobert on the all time Jazz list along with the legendary Boozer :lol

[Wally450]

Barkley or Malone off the top of my head.

[Akeem34TheDream]

David Robinson maybe?

[bullettooth]

Durant and Harden.

[John8204]

It's likely Elgin Baylor who's team got better after he got injured

[Overdrive]

If you scratch players who won titles as the main man the first atg in most lists to appear is most often Karl Malone. Now scratch MVPs it's Pippen who tops that criteria. Now scratch titles as a whole and now Chris Paul becomes the top ranked at player fitting that criteria.

So that's my answer. Never won anything individually and as a teammember yet appears top 30ish on lists.

Not saying he wasn't great.

[RRR3]

Can’t believe y’all are naming players who won MVPs as if that isn’t a massive accomplishment :lol

[Manny98]

CP0 :lol

[TheMan]

Probably one of the random 90s clowns that the media and MJ fans have desperately tried to hype up over the years as all time greats so they can then turn around and pretend only lil Mikey could have stopped them from winning multiple championships.

MJ always living rent free in that tiny space you call your head :oldlol:

[90sgoat]

Can’t believe y’all are naming players who won MVPs as if that isn’t a massive accomplishment :lol

The MVP has been devalued so much with Westbrook, Harden and Embiid.

[Overdrive]

The MVP has been devalued so much with Westbrook, Harden and Embiid.

So Karl Malone's 90s MVPs are worth less, because Westbrook won one in 2017?

[SouBeachTalents]

No mention of Jerry West? Zero MVP’s, 1 FMVP he won while losing the series, 1 title.

Oscar Robertson would be in the exact same boat, just flip the FMVP for an MVP.

Wade would be another good choice.

[Kblaze8855]

yet you'd put ahead of Gobert on the all time Jazz list along with the legendary Boozer :lol


Pistol will likely still be on the top 100 team in 25 years long after Goberts name will have been spoken out loud on tv for the last time. Nothing to be done about that now.

[Kblaze8855]

No mention of Jerry West? Zero MVP’s, 1 FMVP he won while losing the series, 1 title.

Oscar Robertson would be in the exact same boat, just flip the FMVP for an MVP.

Wade would be another good choice.


Jerry West is a 14 time all star, 10 time all nba first team, 4 time all D team who would
probably be 10 if it existed his whole career, finals mvp, scoring and assists leader, and a champion. Feels like too much to call least accomplished all timer.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jerry West is a 14 time all star, 10 time all nba first team, 4 time all D team who would
probably be 10 if it existed his whole career, finals mvp, scoring and assists leader, and a champion. Feels like too much to call least accomplished all timer.
One combined MVP & 1 title is pretty minimal for a guy considered top 15, really depends who we're considering an ATG. If we're including Pistol Pete then all bets are off :lol

Drexler would have one of the worst resumes of guys in the top 40 range, just 5 All-NBA selections in a 15 year career.

[John8204]

No mention of Jerry West? Zero MVP’s, 1 FMVP he won while losing the series, 1 title.

Oscar Robertson would be in the exact same boat, just flip the FMVP for an MVP.

Wade would be another good choice.

Why would you pick Jerry over Elgin Baylor, Jerry was an All-Star for his run in the NBA, made the playoffs almost every year, was all-Defense, scoring champion, assists leader and gold medalist. Baylor only won a ring in a season where he played 9 games.

[Phoenix]

David Robinson maybe?

Even if you ignore than Duncan was driving the bus for both his titles, he's still a ROTY, MVP, DPOY, scoring champ, blocks champ, rebounding champ, 8 x all D, 10 x All NBA. That 95 series against Dream has really done a number on how he's perceived.

[L.Kizzle]

Lol at people naming guys with MVPs like that's not a HUGE accomplishment. It's literally the biggest individual accomplishment.
Probably someone like a Walt Bellamy.

[Duffy Pratt]

Here are the guys in the NBA top 75 with no championships and no MVPs:

John Stockton
Patrick Ewing
Chris Paul
Alex English
George Gervin
Reggie Miller
Gary Payton
Dominique Wilkens
Pete Maravich
Tracy McGrady
Carmelo Anthony
Chris Webber
Damian Lillard
Lennie Wilkens
Pete Maravich

Of these, I'm going with Lillard. He has never led the league in anything, and he's been to the conference finals once. Discount leading the league in something, and I think its TMac.

[mr4speed]

Why would you pick Jerry over Elgin Baylor, Jerry was an All-Star for his run in the NBA, made the playoffs almost every year, was all-Defense, scoring champion, assists leader and gold medalist. Baylor only won a ring in a season where he played 9 games.

Baylor did not get a ring that season. I just finished reading "Pivotal Season" by Charlie Rosen and the players on the team decided not to get Elgin a ring after they won the championship! ( I thought it was a great book)

[Baller234]

I hate to do it, but I think John Stockton gets way too much love when it comes to all time discussions. He's obviously an all time great but in reality he's more like a top 40 guy than a top 20 guy.

One of the best pure point guards ever, elite at controlling the game, but he couldn't dominate when it counted. He has the the longevity on his side and the accolades... but in real time you could also make the case for guys like Tim Hardaway and Kevin Johnson. Those guys could set up teammates but were also much more of a threat to score.

Stockton, Payton, KJ, Hardaway... were all in the same grouping if you ask me, but history remembers Stockton like he was way better than these guys when that wasn't really the case.

[Xiao Yao You]

I hate to do it, but I think John Stockton gets way too much love when it comes to all time discussions. He's obviously an all time great but in reality he's more like a top 40 guy than a top 20 guy.

One of the best pure point guards ever, elite at controlling the game, but he couldn't dominate when it counted. He has the the longevity on his side and the accolades... but in real time you could also make the case for guys like Tim Hardaway and Kevin Johnson. Those guys could set up teammates but were also much more of a threat to score.

Stockton, Payton, KJ, Hardaway... were all in the same grouping if you ask me, but history remembers Stockton like he was way better than these guys when that wasn't really the case.

He was way better. There was like one season for each of those guys where I thought they were comparable to Stockton. He was bringing it every year :facepalm

[Baller234]

He was way better. There was like one season for each of those guys where I thought they were comparable to Stockton. He was bringing it every year :facepalm

Stockton has the longevity because he was lucky to play with another superstar his entire career and because the other guys couldn't stay healthy. In their primes he wasn't really better than them. At best they all existed on the same tier of elite point guards.

Fu*k it just occurred to me that I forgot Mark Price. Throw him into the mix as well. Another beast that never gets talked about and a guy that was arguably as good if not better than Stockton.

[BarberSchool]

Chris Small

[Xiao Yao You]

Stockton has the longevity because he was lucky to play with another superstar his entire career and because the other guys couldn't stay healthy. In their primes he wasn't really better than them. At best they all existed on the same tier of elite point guards.

Fu*k it just occurred to me that I forgot Mark Price. Throw him into the mix as well. Another beast that never gets talked about and a guy that was arguably as good if not better than Stockton.

He has longevity because he worked and got better every year. Not sure how Malone has anything to do with that other than they pushed each other trying to have lower body fat than the other each year. He was better almost every year than those mentioned. As I said I remember each of the guys you mentioned being comparable to Stockton for 1 year of their careers while he did every year! Price was a better shooter. That's it.

[Baller234]

He has longevity because he worked and got better every year. Not sure how Malone has anything to do with that other than they pushed each other trying to have lower body fat than the other each year. He was better almost every year than those mentioned. As I said I remember each of the guys you mentioned being comparable to Stockton for 1 year of their careers while he did every year! Price was a better shooter. That's it.

Okay well if we are talking longevity then sure it goes to Stockton, and yes I do value longevity because it also means consistency. But I am talking primes. I can't just hold it against those guys because they got injured. They were great players too.

I'm not saying Price was better than Stockton, I'm just saying he belonged in the same discussion when they were both in their primes. If someone tried to make the case for Price I couldn't really be mad. He was arguably the best shooter in the league and he was also a better slasher.

And this isn't to bash Stockton, but it highlights how overrated he's become, as great as he was. He wasn't "peerless" at his position at any point in his career.

[Xiao Yao You]

Okay well if we are talking longevity then sure it goes to Stockton, and yes I do value longevity because it also means consistency. But I am talking primes. I can't just hold it against those guys because they got injured. They were great players too.

I'm not saying Price was better than Stockton, I'm just saying he belonged in the same discussion when they were both in their primes. If someone tried to make the case for Price I couldn't really be mad. He was arguably the best shooter in the league and he was also a better slasher.

And this isn't to bash Stockton, but it highlights how overrated he's become, as great as he was. He wasn't "peerless" at his position at any point in his career.

why can't you hold it against them? Stockton took care of his body and played through injuries. He only missed 30 games after micro fracture surgery. It ended many a career and he came back pretty much the same player other than his minutes were reduced. Johnson was always hurt. Maybe he should have been in better shape or been tougher? Price was never in the discussion neither were any of the others. Stockton played both ends of the floor and got better every year. Johnson and Hardaway peaked early. Payton was looking like a bust until he finally figured it out. He was nowhere near the shooter or play maker Stockton was. He may have never been peerless but his peers changed every year while he was doing it every year. Career wise there is no discussion

[Baller234]

why can't you hold it against them? Stockton took care of his body and played through injuries. He only missed 30 games after micro fracture surgery. It ended many a career and he came back pretty much the same player other than his minutes were reduced. Johnson was always hurt. Maybe he should have been in better shape or been tougher? Price was never in the discussion neither were any of the others. Stockton played both ends of the floor and got better every year. Johnson and Hardaway peaked early. Payton was looking like a bust until he finally figured it out. He was nowhere near the shooter or play maker Stockton was. He may have never been peerless but his peers changed every year while he was doing it every year. Career wise there is no discussion

You keep saying that these guys were never in the discussion but you're only saying that now 25-30 years later in hindsight. At the time believe me it wasn't so clear cut.

I'm not one to put much faith in media awards, but in 1992-93 Mark Price was All-NBA 1st team and Stockton was 2nd team. So yea at the very least it proves that, during that time, he was absolutely being debated in the same discussion.

When it comes to injuries, some guys are lucky and some aren't.

[Xiao Yao You]

You keep saying that these guys were never in the discussion but you're only saying that now 25-30 years later in hindsight. At the time believe me it wasn't so clear cut.

I'm not one to put much faith in media awards, but in 1992-93 Mark Price was All-NBA 1st team and Stockton was 2nd team. So yea at the very least it proves that, during that time, he was absolutely being debated in the same discussion.

When it comes to injuries, some guys are lucky and some aren't.

I was saying it all along. Price was on a better team. As far as injuries you make your own luck. Being one of the toughest and best conditioned athletes ever had nothing to do with Stockton's longevity? I'm sure Donic will be bringing it when he's 40 too!

[Baller234]

I was saying it all along. Price was on a better team. As far as injuries you make your own luck. Being one of the toughest and best conditioned athletes ever had nothing to do with Stockton's longevity? I'm sure Donic will be bringing it when he's 40 too!

Maybe he will, a lot of guys play until they're 40 these days. Also it's not like Stock didn't age out too. By his last season he was only playing 27 min a game.

I feel like this argument is silly. Obviously Stock was a warrior and that is partly what made him so great, but yes I'm sorry there IS an element of luck when it comes to avoiding serious injury.

I've seen fans put Stockton in the top 15-20 range all time, and I've also seen him anywhere between 2-5 on the all time point guard list. Was he a great player? Absolutely. Could you make the CASE that was he was the best point guard of the 90's? Absolutely. But if you're telling me that the biggest thing that separated him from his peers was "availability", sorry that alone isn't going to cut it for me. That's not a good enough reason to place him that high.

[Xiao Yao You]

Maybe he will, a lot of guys play until they're 40 these days. Also it's not like Stock didn't age out too. By his last season he was only playing 27 min a game.

I feel like this argument is silly. Obviously Stock was a warrior and that is partly what made him so great, but yes I'm sorry there IS an element of luck when it comes to avoiding serious injury.

I've seen fans put Stockton in the top 15-20 range all time, and I've also seen him anywhere between 2-5 on the all time point guard list. Was he a great player? Absolutely. Could you make the CASE that was he was the best point guard of the 90's? Absolutely. But if you're telling me that the biggest thing that separated him from his peers was "availability", sorry that alone isn't going to cut it for me. That's not a good enough reason to place him that high.

not a lot play until they are 40. I said after microfacture surgery his minutes were down. He was pretty much the same player otherwise though. The surgery ended careers for others

You make your own. luck. It's not like Stockton didn't play through injuries. I thought he was done about half way through his career when he sucked in the playoffs. Found out after he retired that he couldn't lift his arm above his shoulder and it's why he looked like a mere mortal that year

The biggest thing wasn't his availability. He was as good as any small pg(I don't compare Magic with any of them) year in and year out while the guys you talk about each had maybe 1 year at his level. He was a two way player which of the guys you mentioned only Payton was. Payton was a better defender and a more willing scorer. Stockton was better at everything else.

[Baller234]

not a lot play until they are 40. I said after microfacture surgery his minutes were down. He was pretty much the same player otherwise though. The surgery ended careers for others

You make your own. luck. It's not like Stockton didn't play through injuries. I thought he was done about half way through his career when he sucked in the playoffs. Found out after he retired that he couldn't lift his arm above his shoulder and it's why he looked like a mere mortal that year

The biggest thing wasn't his availability. He was as good as any small pg(I don't compare Magic with any of them) year in and year out while the guys you talk about each had maybe 1 year at his level. He was a two way player which of the guys you mentioned only Payton was. Payton was a better defender and a more willing scorer. Stockton was better at everything else.

It wasn't just one season though. KJ, Timmy and Price all had multiple seasons of elite play. They are 3x, 4x and 5x all-stars respectively. Timmy and KJ were legit 22 & 10 guys for multiple seasons. Absolute studs. Timmy even finished 4th in MVP voting during his time in Miami.

[Xiao Yao You]

It wasn't just one season though. KJ, Timmy and Price all had multiple seasons of elite play. They are 3x, 4x and 5x all-stars respectively. Timmy and KJ were legit 22 & 10 guys for multiple seasons. Absolute studs. Timmy even finished 4th in MVP voting during his time in Miami.

I remember Hardaway and Johnson having one year where I thought they were comparable to Stockton. More willing scorers. Stockton better at everything else. Price was never at his level

[Baller234]

I remember Hardaway and Johnson having one year where I thought they were comparable to Stockton. More willing scorers. Stockton better at everything else. Price was never at his level

Lol, scoring is a pretty big deal.

KJ got to the conference finals TWICE before Stockton AND the finals before Stockton. The moment KJ got paired with another superstar, like Stockton had, he went to the finals.

Believe me I am not saying this is proof of anything definitive, just that the gap between these two guys is nowhere near as big as you're making it seem.

[Xiao Yao You]

Lol, scoring is a pretty big deal.

KJ got to the conference finals TWICE before Stockton AND the finals before Stockton. The moment KJ got paired with another superstar, like Stockton had, he went to the finals.

Believe me I am not saying this is proof of anything definitive, just that the gap between these two guys is nowhere near as big as you're making it seem.

yeah scoring is a pretty big deal so is keeping the opposing team from scoring. The Suns had a lot more talent than the Jazz. Johnson was nowhere the player Stockton was. Being great for two decades is a fairly big deal too

[Duffy Pratt]

It wasn't just one season though. KJ, Timmy and Price all had multiple seasons of elite play. They are 3x, 4x and 5x all-stars respectively. Timmy and KJ were legit 22 & 10 guys for multiple seasons. Absolute studs. Timmy even finished 4th in MVP voting during his time in Miami.

And between the three of them combined, they just manage to surpass Stockton’s number of all star (10) or all NBA (11) selections. Stockton also made 5 all defense teams, compared to the combined zero for those guys. Your memory is different than mine. No-one I knew would have seriously considered any of those guys as being as good as Stockton, and it wasn’t even close.

[Baller234]

And between the three of them combined, they just manage to surpass Stockton’s number of all star (10) or all NBA (11) selections. Stockton also made 5 all defense teams, compared to the combined zero for those guys. Your memory is different than mine. No-one I knew would have seriously considered any of those guys as being as good as Stockton, and it wasn’t even close.

If nobody considered them as good as Stockton, why are there multiple instances of these guys scoring higher all-team selections?

1991
- KJ (2nd team)
- Stockton (3rd team)

1993
- Price (1st team)
- Stockton (2nd team)

1997
- Timmy (1st team)
- Payton (2nd team)
- Stockton (3rd team)

1998
- Payton (1st team)
- Timmy (2nd team)
- Stockton (None)

1999
- Timmy (2nd team)
- Payton (2nd team)
- Stockton (3rd team)

It's like you guys don't understand english. I'm not saying these guys are better than Stockton on the all time list. I'm perfectly willing to give Stockton the nod due to his defense and more importantly his longevity, but don't tell me he was in a class by himself when these guys were forcing the debate in real time.

[Xiao Yao You]

If nobody considered them as good as Stockton, why are there multiple instances of these guys scoring higher all-team selections?

1991
- KJ (2nd team)
- Stockton (3rd team)

1993
- Price (1st team)
- Stockton (2nd team)

1997
- Timmy (1st team)
- Payton (2nd team)
- Stockton (3rd team)

1998
- Payton (1st team)
- Timmy (2nd team)
- Stockton (None)

1999
- Timmy (2nd team)
- Payton (2nd team)
- Stockton (3rd team)

It's like you guys don't understand english. I'm not saying these guys are better than Stockton on the all time list. I'm perfectly willing to give Stockton the nod due to his defense and more importantly his longevity, but don't tell me he was in a class by himself when these guys were forcing the debate in real time.

'91 there might be an argument for Johnson. Only reason I can see Price being picked over Stockton in '93 would be the Cavs were a lot better team. Statistically it's not close and again besides Payton none of these guys were close to him defensively. None were close to him as a playmaker. None were close to his efficiency. Hardaway shot 42% in '97 vs the elite efficiency of Stockton and the Jazz were the better team so that one's a joke. Payton has a better argument but he took and missed a lot of 3's for the time and sucked at the line as well and the Jazz were the better team. The next year Stockton's minutes were reduced greatly so you could argue those guys over him based on that but again besides points and hype what do they have over the old man? Hardaway was a bit more efficient and Seattle was close to Utah. Payton wasn't the playmaker the other guys were but he turned it over less. '99 was the lockout and compacted schedule which killed the Jazz and their old team. Jazz still the better team though. Seattle was a .500 team so Payton is kind of a joke that year for sure. Hardaway down to 40%. Payton's efficiency took a nosedive. What I see is Stockton there every year for a couple of decades and these other guys just trying to keep up with the old man. More hype and more points I guess? It's not close really. What a machine Stockton was! :bowdown:

[Duffy Pratt]

If nobody considered them as good as Stockton, why are there multiple instances of these guys scoring higher all-team selections?

1991
- KJ (2nd team)
- Stockton (3rd team)

1993
- Price (1st team)
- Stockton (2nd team)

1997
- Timmy (1st team)
- Payton (2nd team)
- Stockton (3rd team)

1998
- Payton (1st team)
- Timmy (2nd team)
- Stockton (None)

1999
- Timmy (2nd team)
- Payton (2nd team)
- Stockton (3rd team)

It's like you guys don't understand english. I'm not saying these guys are better than Stockton on the all time list. I'm perfectly willing to give Stockton the nod due to his defense and more importantly his longevity, but don't tell me he was in a class by himself when these guys were forcing the debate in real time.

Joker was 2nd team all NBA this year.

[Baller234]

Joker was 2nd team all NBA this year.

You're 100% right. I don't think that media awards are proof of anything at all.

But it definitely suggests that fans and experts at the time were NOT unanimously in agreement that Stockton was the clear cut best PG in the league, which is what you inferred. Obviously he had stiff competition.

And the Jokic snub is bad, but that's also highlighted by him winning a championship. Stockton doesn't have the jewelry.

[Baller234]

'91 there might be an argument for Johnson. Only reason I can see Price being picked over Stockton in '93 would be the Cavs were a lot better team. Statistically it's not close and again besides Payton none of these guys were close to him defensively. None were close to him as a playmaker. None were close to his efficiency. Hardaway shot 42% in '97 vs the elite efficiency of Stockton and the Jazz were the better team so that one's a joke. Payton has a better argument but he took and missed a lot of 3's for the time and sucked at the line as well and the Jazz were the better team. The next year Stockton's minutes were reduced greatly so you could argue those guys over him based on that but again besides points and hype what do they have over the old man? Hardaway was a bit more efficient and Seattle was close to Utah. Payton wasn't the playmaker the other guys were but he turned it over less. '99 was the lockout and compacted schedule which killed the Jazz and their old team. Jazz still the better team though. Seattle was a .500 team so Payton is kind of a joke that year for sure. Hardaway down to 40%. Payton's efficiency took a nosedive. What I see is Stockton there every year for a couple of decades and these other guys just trying to keep up with the old man. More hype and more points I guess? It's not close really. What a machine Stockton was! :bowdown:

Lol, how can you accuse players who put up 22 & 10 for multiple seasons of not being great playmakers?

Not going to bother getting bogged down in arguments over efficiency because Stockton didn't approach the game with a scoring mentality and wasn't taking as many shots. Stockton scored 30+ points only 11 times in his career, Kevin Johnson has done it 70 times. Tim Hardaway has done it 62 times. Keep in mind they didn't play nearly as many games.

Being able to score 30 (or possibly 40) is not just something you gloss over. That's an invaluable skill also, on top of being great set up guys.

[Xiao Yao You]

Lol, how can you accuse players who put up 22 & 10 for multiple seasons of not being great playmakers?

Not going to bother getting bogged down in arguments over efficiency because Stockton didn't approach the game with a scoring mentality and wasn't taking as many shots. Stockton scored 30+ points only 11 times in his career, Kevin Johnson has done it 70 times. Tim Hardaway has done it 62 times. Keep in mind they didn't play nearly as many games.

Being able to score 30 (or possibly 40) is not just something you gloss over. That's an invaluable skill also, on top of being great set up guys.

They scored more and had more hype. I covered that. Stockton was able to score. Saw him take over games. He preferred to have his teammates score and he did that better than anyone ever. He was unselfish to a fault. Along with his undying loyalty to the Jazz those are his only negatives as a player. Pretty sure he could have shot 40% if he wanted to shoot as much as the others. I'll take that over bad D and bad efficiency. As far as Hardaway goes I thought the year he was comparable to Stockton was his 2nd year in the league not his inefficient years with the Heat. Continue to gloss over the fact that Stockton was great for a long time while the others just hoped to have one year in his stratosphere

[Carbine]

The real answer to this thread is Oscar. Not even close.

Consensus top 15 player with no title as best player. Only 1 MVP award.

[Thorpesaurous]

Marivich would be my choice as well. Barkley is a good case too.

Bill Walton is an interesting case. He's a career 13 and 10 with 3.5 Assists (2.7 TOs). .8 Steals, 2.2 Blocks.

Was over 3 blocks a season twice. Led the league once. Four seasons in double figure rebounds, although usually close after that. Let the league once. Never scored more than 19 in a season.

I believe two time all star. Technically went 14 seasons, but missed four entirely with foot injuries. You're talking 6200 pts, 5000 rebounds, 1600 Assists, 1000 blocks. You can find some pretty marginal guys to reach those totals.

I'm a big season MVP / Title guy, and he's got the MVP, and he's the undisputed best player on a championship team. Plus the college achievements are pretty much him and Kareem. Most of his career is played as a shell of who he actually was. If you go his first four seasons, it's 15 and change ppg, 13 rebounds, 3 Blcks, 4+ Assists, an MVP, two All Stars, and a Title. He gets another title with Boston in 86, and adds a dubious 6th man of the year award with Boston in 86 (while averaging 3 pts /3 rebs / 1 asst/ 1 blk).

It is one of the most complicated careers of all time to put into context.

[Baller234]

They scored more and had more hype. I covered that. Stockton was able to score. Saw him take over games. He preferred to have his teammates score and he did that better than anyone ever. He was unselfish to a fault. Along with his undying loyalty to the Jazz those are his only negatives as a player. Pretty sure he could have shot 40% if he wanted to shoot as much as the others. I'll take that over bad D and bad efficiency. As far as Hardaway goes I thought the year he was comparable to Stockton was his 2nd year in the league not his inefficient years with the Heat. Continue to gloss over the fact that Stockton was great for a long time while the others just hoped to have one year in his stratosphere

Paul Pierce has the longevity and the accomplishments, but anyone who was alive at the time and had a set of eyes could see that McGrady was just as good if not better in a lot of ways. And if not for forming a super team, Pierce might have also retired ringless.

Those guys didn't have the longevity that Stockton did, but in their primes they were ABSOLUTELY in the same discussion. That is literally all I'm saying. The way you guys talk about Stockton and how he was so head and shoulders ahead of his competition is exactly why I think he's become overrated.

[Xiao Yao You]

Marivich would be my choice as well. Barkley is a good case too.

Bill Walton is an interesting case. He's a career 13 and 10 with 3.5 Assists (2.7 TOs). .8 Steals, 2.2 Blocks.

Was over 3 blocks a season twice. Led the league once. Four seasons in double figure rebounds, although usually close after that. Let the league once. Never scored more than 19 in a season.

I believe two time all star. Technically went 14 seasons, but missed four entirely with foot injuries. You're talking 6200 pts, 5000 rebounds, 1600 Assists, 1000 blocks. You can find some pretty marginal guys to reach those totals.

I'm a big season MVP / Title guy, and he's got the MVP, and he's the undisputed best player on a championship team. Plus the college achievements are pretty much him and Kareem. Most of his career is played as a shell of who he actually was. If you go his first four seasons, it's 15 and change ppg, 13 rebounds, 3 Blcks, 4+ Assists, an MVP, two All Stars, and a Title. He gets another title with Boston in 86, and adds a dubious 6th man of the year award with Boston in 86 (while averaging 3 pts /3 rebs / 1 asst/ 1 blk).

It is one of the most complicated careers of all time to put into context.

Walton is one of the best players ever. Carried a team to a title on bad feet

[Xiao Yao You]

Paul Pierce has the longevity and the accomplishments, but anyone who was alive at the time and had a set of eyes could see that McGrady was just as good if not better in a lot of ways. And if not for forming a super team, Pierce might have also retired ringless.

Those guys didn't have the longevity that Stockton did, but in their primes they were ABSOLUTELY in the same discussion. That is literally all I'm saying. The way you guys talk about Stockton and how he was so head and shoulders ahead of his competition is exactly why I think he's become overrated.

Boson should have been better in a weak east if Rivers and Pierce were as great as billed. McGrady should have done more too though. Pretty sure I know what you're saying by now and what Stockton did for so long is incredible. You can have Hardaway and his 40% or Payton and his .500 record or Price and Johnson on stacked teams but again you're having to put 4 guys up against 1 guy's career. What a stud the guy was! Payton certainly got it even if you don't :cheers:

[kawhileonard2]

Probably one of the random 90s clowns that the media and MJ fans have desperately tried to hype up over the years as all time greats so they can then turn around and pretend only lil Mikey could have stopped them from winning multiple championships.

Dwight Howard but he beat Lebron without HCA.

[Soundwave]

Utah and Stockton is easy to shit on, because they didn't play a sexy style of basketball with any big personalities on the roster, but the fact is, they sent these guys:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DjDQm6CWsAASFzv?format=webp&name=large

Home packing

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/26/bd/4f/26bd4f4c9e73ba0663c6ed88b5f2d058.jpg

Them too.

They beat some impressive teams and really it took every ounce of gas Jordan had left in the tank to beat them in 1998.