Why do MOST NBA greats say MJ and Kobe are 1a and 1b.......

[Legend248]

While fans and some sports channels say otherwise? Why does the media always push a false narrative about lebron?

[sdot_thadon]

News flash, they don't.

[RRR3]

Duh-uhhh-uhhhh
:facepalm

[Baller234]

What's really weird is that you have people who will say verbatim that Kobe is the closest thing they've ever seen to Mike.

Meanwhile, they have Mike ranked 1st and Kobe is like 9th.

[SouBeachTalents]

What's really weird is that you have people who will say verbatim that Kobe is the closest thing they've ever seen to Mike.

Meanwhile, they have Mike ranked 1st and Kobe is like 9th.
There's nothing remotely weird about that. Just because he emulated his style doesn't mean he was equally as good, or should automatically be 2nd.

[Baller234]

There's nothing remotely weird about that. Just because he emulated his style doesn't mean he was equally as good, or should automatically be 2nd.

At worst he was a 90% imperfect clone of Jordan, albeit with longer range. Same killer mentality, same ability to dominate and get off any shot he wanted.

[ShawkFactory]

At worst he was a 90% imperfect clone of Jordan, albeit with longer range. Same killer mentality, same ability to dominate and get off any shot he wanted.

90% of Mike means that there are other different and amazing players that might have been better than that. Hell...Barkley was more than 90% of Mike as a player. So were Bird and Magic.

Perfect gets you Mike. Imperfect Mike doesn't get you 1b.

[Im Still Ballin]

Was Kobe as good as Mike? No. I don't think so.

But the difference between them is less than most would think. That goes for all all-time greats. But I guess it's how you analyze things. We share 98% of our DNA with chimpanzees. It's the 2% difference that counts, that makes all the difference.

All-time rankings are very arbitrary.

[Baller234]

90% of Mike means that there are other different and amazing players that might have been better than that. Hell...Barkley was more than 90% of Mike as a player. So were Bird and Magic.

Perfect gets you Mike. Imperfect Mike doesn't get you 1b.

I'm talking about percentage in terms of their games.

Kobe borrowed Mike's game and expanded upon it.

[Overdrive]

At worst he was a 90% imperfect clone of Jordan, albeit with longer range. Same killer mentality, same ability to dominate and get off any shot he wanted.

Yeah, same killer instinct maybe, but Kobe still couldn't execute at the same clip. What use is it when you believe you have to take over every and any game, but you often fall short, because that killer instinct leads to dumb decisions?

[Phoenix]

What's really weird is that you have people who will say verbatim that Kobe is the closest thing they've ever seen to Mike.

Meanwhile, they have Mike ranked 1st and Kobe is like 9th.

Stylistically the closest overall, but other players have channeled various facets of MJ. Peak D-Wade was closer to the 84-93 MJ than Kobe was. Kobe was more like....96-98 MJ's style with a more modern handle and more consistent long range. Hell, you could say the same for Kawhi but he was more robotic and didn't have the same athletic explosion.

[Full Court]

There's nothing remotely weird about that. Just because he emulated his style doesn't mean he was equally as good, or should automatically be 2nd.

This. The only other high-ranked guard is Magic, and he had a very different style.

[Baller234]

Yeah, same killer instinct maybe, but Kobe still couldn't execute at the same clip. What use is it when you believe you have to take over every and any game, but you often fall short, because that killer instinct leads to dumb decisions?

Eh, this means nothing to me. The zone defense era of the 2000's was the toughest defensive era in history. All of the elite perimeter players of that era were shooting below 50%.

Kobe's brand of ball led to 3 straight finals appearances and back to back championships. He was still far and away the most unstoppable scorer of his era and it doesn't matter who you name.

[Baller234]

Stylistically the closest overall, but other players have channeled various facets of MJ. Peak D-Wade was closer to the 84-93 MJ than Kobe was. Kobe was more like....96-98 MJ's style with a more modern handle and more consistent long range. Hell, you could say the same for Kawhi but he was more robotic and didn't have the same athletic explosion.


Wade had the explosion but he didn't have the same bag of tricks. He was innovative in his own right and even did some things MJ never did, but he didn't compare to him or Kobe.

Kobe had the footwork, the fundamentals, the counters, the counters to the counters... he dissected the defense with skill and precision. In their primes I am way more confident in Kobe to get to his spot and get you a bucket than Wade, and that's not a knock on Wade. Kobe was just better.

[Baller234]

This. The only other high-ranked guard is Magic, and he had a very different style.

I love Magic but I'm sorry I'm going with Kobe.

You can argue that Magic was a more "special" player relative to the era. Nobody like Magic ever existed when he came into the league and he revolutionized the game. Kobe was dominant sure but we had seen his act before.

But if we are talking what they bring to the court, I'm sorry I have to go with Kobe. If you think MJ is better than Magic, there's no reason not to think Kobe was also better than Magic.

Magic was also a leader and a killer, but he didn't have the ability to score at will.

[SouBeachTalents]

Wade had the explosion but he didn't have the same bag of tricks. He was innovative in his own right and even did some things MJ never did, but he didn't compare to him or Kobe.

Kobe had the footwork, the fundamentals, the counters, the counters to the counters... he dissected the defense with skill and precision. In their primes I am way more confident in Kobe to get to his spot and get you a bucket than Wade, and that's not a knock on Wade. Kobe was just better.
If you think Wade doesn't compare to Kobe, you're REALLY overrating Kobe :lol He was not discernably better than Wade or Kawhi at his peak, those are the players he compares to, not Jordan.

[SouBeachTalents]

I love Magic but I'm sorry I'm going with Kobe.

You can argue that Magic was a more "special" player relative to the era. Nobody like Magic ever existed when he came into the league and he revolutionized the game. Kobe was dominant sure but we had seen his act before.

But if we are talking what they bring to the court, I'm sorry I have to go with Kobe. If you think MJ is better than Magic, there's no reason not to think Kobe was also better than Magic. They were both leaders and both killers, but the ability to score at will trumps everything else.
Whoops, didn't realize I was dealing with a hardcore Kobe stan, carry on :lol

[Baller234]

I'm not even close to being a Kobe stan. I just recognize greatness when I see it.

Why don't you address the facts I laid out instead of getting emotional and calling me names?

[Phoenix]

Wade had the explosion but he didn't have the same bag of tricks. He was innovative in his own right and even did some things MJ never did, but he didn't compare to him or Kobe.

Kobe had the footwork, the fundamentals, the counters, the counters to the counters... he dissected the defense with skill and precision. In their primes I am way more confident in Kobe to get to his spot and get you a bucket than Wade, and that's not a knock on Wade. Kobe was just better.

I wasn't saying who was better than who, or respective bags of tricks. I was saying that young D-Wade stylistically( the word I opened my last post with) reminded me more of peak-prime MJ than Kobe did. Kobe's style to me was closer to 2nd threepeat MJ.

If you want to get into 'bags', it's considered that Kobe had more in his than MJ overall, because he didn't have the same kind of physical advantages, so all the counters on top of counters on top of counters were to balance out that he didn't have MJ's handsize, first step, or overall jumping ability.

[Baller234]

I wasn't saying who was better than who, or respective bags of tricks. I was saying that young D-Wade stylistically( the word I opened my last post with) reminded me more of peak-prime MJ than Kobe did. Kobe's style to me was closer to 2nd threepeat MJ.

If you want to get into 'bags', it's considered that Kobe had more in his than MJ overall, because he didn't have the same kind of physical advantages, so all the counters on top of counters on top of counters were to balance out that he didn't have MJ's handsize, first step, or overall jumping ability.

That's a fair point about Wade and Kobe representing different aspects of MJ, but I still have to give the edge to Kobe.

And yes Kobe absolutely expanded upon Mike's game and added things of his own. In fact I don't think Kobe gets enough credit for helping to revolutionize the game in his own right. When it comes to the modern 3 point era, we all credit Curry with being the spark but really he was the flame and Kobe was the spark.

Kobe was really the first guy to start shooting "ill advised" 3's. Didn't matter if he had a hand in his face he was gonna launch it from 25 feet. Sounds crazy until he goes ham and breaks the single game record with 12 threes. Now all of a sudden everyone is taking notice.

Kobe's ability to hit those types of shots even when being smothered on the perimeter is just one of the things that separated him.

[Johnny32]

News flash, they don't.

Not sure why there was any posts after this fact.

[Phoenix]

That's a fair point about Wade and Kobe representing different aspects of MJ, but I still have to give the edge to Kobe.

And yes Kobe absolutely expanded upon Mike's game and added things of his own. In fact I don't think Kobe gets enough credit for helping to revolutionize the game in his own right. When it comes to the modern 3 point era, we all credit Curry with being the spark but really he was the flame and Kobe was the spark.

Kobe was really the first guy to start shooting "ill advised" 3's. Didn't matter if he had a hand in his face he was gonna launch it from 25 feet. Sounds crazy until he goes ham and breaks the single game record with 12 threes. Now all of a sudden everyone is taking notice.

Kobe's ability to hit those types of shots even when being smothered on the perimeter is just one of the things that separated him.

That's also why his field goal percentage was lower than his scoring ability dictated it should be. A lot of ill-advised 'heat checks' and shots that only he would take( which resulted in some incredible highlights when he made them), but also could shoot you out of the game. It seemed like he spent a good portion of his career finding that balance point. If Kobe had operated mostly within the 20foot range his % is probably a bit higher, but again that also speaks to why he extended his range( other than the game trending that way anyways). He wasn't the slasher or finisher overall that MJ was (though obviously elite in both categories), so his game needed to be more perimeter-based. Wade, comparatively, was a slasher, shiftier with the dribble( compared to both MJ and Kobe), and had incredible body control and dexterity. Obviously not the shooter than Kobe and MJ were, but during his best seasons his mid-range was spot on. Seemed to come and go from year to year, for whatever reason...

[Baller234]

That's also why his field goal percentage was lower than his scoring ability dictated it should be. A lot of ill-advised 'heat checks' and shots that only he would take( which resulted in some incredible highlights when he made them), but also could shoot you out of the game. It seemed like he spent a good portion of his career finding that balance point. If Kobe had operated mostly within the 20foot range his % is probably a bit higher, but again that also speaks to why he extended his range( other than the game trending that way anyways). He wasn't the slasher or finisher overall that MJ was (though obviously elite in both categories), so his game needed to be more perimeter-based. Wade, comparatively, was a slasher, shiftier with the dribble( compared to both MJ and Kobe), and had incredible body control and dexterity. Obviously not the shooter than Kobe and MJ were, but during his best seasons his mid-range was spot on. Seemed to come and go from year to year, for whatever reason...

I think in general fans are wayyy too focused on things like FG%.

For one, not every bucket is equal. Getting a random bucket in the 1st half is not the same as getting a key bucket in crunch time. You also have to remember that some buckets are assisted and some aren't.

Kobe and the other great perimeter players during his time all shot around 20 times a game. The difference between shooting 45% and 50% is a single bucket, not really a huge deal. Kobe got you the points when it mattered.

[Phoenix]

I think in general fans are wayyy too focused on things like FG%.

For one, not every bucket is equal. Getting a random bucket in the 1st half is not the same as getting a key bucket in crunch time. You also have to remember that some buckets are assisted and some aren't.

Kobe and the other great perimeter players during his time all shot around 20 times a game. The difference between shooting 45% and 50% is a single bucket, not really a huge deal. Kobe got you the points when it mattered.

Maybe in general, but we're talking two players of similar talents and roles( Kobe post-Shaq anyway), played in the same offense and required highly concentrated defensive attention. We're not comparing players who have no business being compared here, which is when things like field goal numbers become less relevant. We're not comparing Kobe with....I don't know....pre Steph Curry Monta Ellis or something. Even if you compare him to someone like Wade, Wade always managed 48-50% in his prime and wasn't nearly the shooter Kobe was. It's not the end all be all, but I wouldn't call it an irrelevant bullet point when contrasting guys at this level.

[warriorfan]

Maybe in general, but we're talking two players of similar talents and roles( Kobe post-Shaq anyway), played in the same offense and required highly concentrated defensive attention. We're not comparing players who have no business being compared here, which is when things like field goal numbers become less relevant. We're not comparing Kobe with....I don't know....pre Steph Curry Monta Ellis or something. Even if you compare him to someone like Wade, Wade always managed 48-50% in his prime and wasn't nearly the shooter Kobe was. It's not the end all be all, but I wouldn't call it an irrelevant bullet point when contrasting guys at this level.

wade’s higher FG didn’t have much to do with shooting, he could get to the rack and finish strong just about whenever he wanted to

[Baller234]

Maybe in general, but we're talking two players of similar talents and roles( Kobe post-Shaq anyway), played in the same offense and required highly concentrated defensive attention. We're not comparing players who have no business being compared here, which is when things like field goal numbers become less relevant. We're not comparing Kobe with....I don't know....pre Steph Curry Monta Ellis or something. Even if you compare him to someone like Wade, Wade always managed 48-50% in his prime and wasn't nearly the shooter Kobe. It's not the end all be all, but I wouldn't call it an irrelevant bullet point when contrasting guys at this level.

During the years that Wade was in the league and Kobe was still in his prime, Kobe shot anywhere from 43-46% on the season. During this same time Wade shot between 46-50%.

Let's take Kobe's worst (43%) and Wade's best (50%). This is a difference of barely more than a bucket a game. You're splitting hairs at that point. Especially when you take into account what else Kobe brought to the table in both his leadership and his never-ending bag of tricks. PLUS his defense.

I will never forget watching Game 4 against the Suns where Kobe hit both the game tying bucket that sent it into OT as well as the game winning jumper. That last shot was just insane. The confidence he had and also his ability to execute in that moment. He was getting to his spot whether you like it or not. At that point he controls the game and it's not about the Suns anymore. He proved in that moment that he was a superhero.

Wade was GREAT, but I never saw him rise to those heights.

[Phoenix]

wade’s higher FG didn’t have much to do with shooting, he could get to the rack and finish strong just about whenever he wanted to

Yes, I said he managed that without Kobe's shooting prowess. Kobe's percentages could have been higher with a few less of those 'only Kobe would take that ' shots that didn't fall under the makes category, but apparently the importance of field goal percentages are up in the air. Heck, Steph was putting up 30ppg seasons shooting 50% while also taking 10 plus 3's.

[Baller234]

Yes, I said he managed that without Kobe's shooting prowess. Kobe's percentages could have been higher with a few less of those 'only Kobe would take that ' shots that didn't fall under the makes category, but apparently the importance of field goal percentages are up in the air. Heck, Steph was putting up 30ppg seasons shooting 50% while also taking 10 plus 3's.

You can't compare the space and pace era of today to the zone defense era of the early-mid 2000's.

Kobe in his prime is definitely shooting above 50% in today's game because he would have all the space in the world to operate, plus he would be surrounded by shooters in every direction.

[Phoenix]

During the years that Wade was in the league and Kobe was still in his prime, Kobe shot anywhere from 43-46% on the season. During this same time Wade shot between 46-50%.

Let's take Kobe's worst (43%) and Wade's best (50%). This is a difference of barely more than a bucket a game. You're splitting hairs at that point. Especially when you take into account what else Kobe brought to the table in both his leadership and his never-ending bag of tricks. PLUS his defense.

I will never forget watching Game 4 against the Suns where Kobe hit both the game tying bucket that sent it into OT as well as the game winning jumper. That last shot was just insane. The confidence he had and also his ability to execute in that moment. He was getting to his spot whether you like it or not. At that point he controls the game and it's not about the Suns anymore. He proved in that moment that he was a superhero.

Wade was GREAT, but I never saw him rise to those heights.

Wade brought those things too, though. Kobe had more in his bag compared to Wade( even compared to MJ to a lesser degree). I don't think Kobe's career is changed by a couple percentage points, but there is something to the application of how you apply your bag as much as the volume of what's in it. Like I said, Kobe did sometimes get too caught up in what he could do individually and shot the Lakers defiantly out of games. Obviously when he was on, that's a different conversation. In general MJ was a more consistent game to game scorer, a higher scoring floor due to smarter decisions ( this includes shots taken) and a slightly lower scoring ceiling than those moments Kobe went into on fire mode, and that was mainly due to the latter's ability to catch fire from 3.

[Phoenix]

You can't compare the space and pace era of today to the zone defense era of the early-mid 2000's.

Kobe in his prime is definitely shooting above 50% in today's game because he would have all the space in the world to operate, plus he would be surrounded by shooters in every direction.

The eras aren't comparable, but it's very obvious that Steph's ability to shoot with that accuracy off the dribble transcends any era. His game is completely alien to any time period before 2015. You put him back to 2006, Kobe's peak scoring year, and his percentage points aren't likely dropping. He would have been able to leverage the change in perimeter rules just as every notable perimeter player did in the mid 2000's. Yes, in 2023 Kobe's % would be higher because he would able to leverage the spaced out courts. There's a few other players you could throw into that lot, Orlando Tmac, Toronto Vince, A.I, etc.

[Baller234]

Wade brought those things too, though. Kobe had more in his bag compared to Wade( even compared to MJ to a lesser degree). I don't think Kobe's career is changed by a couple percentage points, but there is something to the application of how you apply your bag as much as the volume of what's in it. Like I said, Kobe did sometimes get too caught up in what he could do individually and shot the Lakers defiantly out of games. Obviously when he was on, that's a different conversation. In general MJ was a more consistent game to game scorer, a higher scoring floor due to smarter decisions ( this includes shots taken) and a slightly lower scoring ceiling than those moments Kobe went into on fire mode, and that was mainly due to the latter's ability to catch fire from 3.

I acknowledge all of this. Phil even said that the biggest difference between MJ and Kobe, aside from the size of their hands, was that MJ let the game come to him more naturally whereas Kobe would tend to force things more.

Kobe took bad shots sometimes but I am willing to overlook that because he brought so much else to the table. It's why I have him behind Jordan but ahead of everyone else. The only other guy I will consider in the conversation is Bird.

[Phoenix]

I acknowledge all of this. Phil even said that the biggest difference between MJ and Kobe, aside from the size of their hands, was that MJ let the game come to him more naturally whereas Kobe would tend to force things more.

Kobe took bad shots sometimes but I am willing to overlook that because he brought so much else to the table. It's why I have him behind Jordan but ahead of everyone else. The only other guy I will consider in the conversation is Bird.

His confidence fueled both his greatness and the most glaring weakness in his game. Double edged sword, so to speak...

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

While fans and some sports channels say otherwise? Why does the media always push a false narrative about lebron?

Do they though?

Here is the most exhaustive round-up of opinions that I’ve seen:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CzFqzZFMS3k&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Ftt.tennis-warehouse.com%2F&source_ve_path=MzY5MjUsMzY5MjUsMjM4NTE&feature=emb_title

Maybe a large subset of those picking Jordan would’ve had Kobe as “1B”…who knows…but one takeaway from this vid is that Jordan is the clear #1 in the eyes of players, while LeBron gets the nod over Kobe.


Assuming that they do: I think a lot of players are closer aesthetes. Much more so than they let on.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Do they though?

Here is the most exhaustive round-up of opinions that I’ve seen:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CzFqzZFMS3k&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Ftt.tennis-warehouse.com%2F&source_ve_path=MzY5MjUsMzY5MjUsMjM4NTE&feature=emb_title

Maybe a large subset of those picking Jordan would’ve had Kobe as “1B”…who knows…but one takeaway from this vid is that Jordan is the clear #1 in the eyes of players, while LeBron gets the nod over Kobe.


Assuming that they do: I think a lot of players are closer aesthetes. Much more so than they let on.




Closet*