Opponent DRTG in Lebron's Finals

[3ba11]

.

Horrific defense (shoot-outs):

2020...... 118.0
2012...... 115.6
2017...... 114.6


Regular defense:

2011...... 107.9
2013...... 108.5
2014...... 104.6
2016...... 109.1
2018...... 108.5


Low DRTG (due to Lebron's worst-ever efficiency in parenthesis):

2007'...... 97.2 (42.8 ts)
2015'...... 99.6 (47.7 ts)


* Lebron enjoyed 8 Finals of easy defensive environments or regular defensive environments (high or regular DRTG) and lost half of them.

* Lebron played in an era where league DRTG/ORTG's were at all-time highs (easier defensive environments) due to spacing strategy and defensive 3 seconds, along with hands-off and no-impede rules (spaced-out, no-touch basketball).

* Despite playing in the easiest-scoring era ever with 8 regular or high DRTG Finals and higher-paced Finals, Lebron still averaged 6 less points than MJ in the Finals, which includes an inferior combination of burden/efficiency in 4th quarter, clutch-time or last possessions and inferior brand of team offense (massive deficits in team assists, aka lebron's stats come at expense of brand of ball, chemistry, strategy, and team ceiling/Finals record, compared to Jordan).

* Despite more offensive help, Lebron's teams had much lower ORTG's (much worse team offenses) compared to Jordan, which puts downward pressure on opponent's DRTG

[ShawkFactory]

Shouldn’t we consider this aspect of things when comparing Pippen’s ppg and FG% in 1998 to Jeff Green in 2016 or something?

Yes I understand that the answer is no.

[3ba11]

Shouldn’t we consider this aspect of things when comparing Pippen’s ppg and FG% in 1998 to Jeff Green in 2016 or something?

Yes I understand that the answer is no.


We would always do that but in this case it makes no difference - Pippen's skillset was largely athletic, similar to Jeff Green - he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn and infact had the worst shooting splits ever for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 mpg - he did this twice in 96' and 98', so MJ was forced to win with a historic lane-clogger and bricklayer that couldn't really handle a 2nd option load... That kind of house-building is frowned upon in today's game (non-shooting bricklayers) and are relegated to defensive roles like Vanderbilt - that's Pippen in today's game without landing alongside the GOAT first

[Axe]

1-9

[ShawkFactory]

We would always do that but in this case it makes no difference - Pippen's skillset was largely athletic, similar to Jeff Green - he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn and infact had the worst shooting splits ever for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 mpg - he did this twice in 96' and 98', so MJ was forced to win with a historic lane-clogger and bricklayer that couldn't really handle a 2nd option load... That kind of house-building is frowned upon in today's game (non-shooting bricklayers) and are relegated to defensive roles like Vanderbilt - that's Pippen in today's game without landing alongside the GOAT first

This was exactly what I hoped and expected from you :cheers:

[3ba11]

1-9


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-12-2017/L4sz8i.gif

[3ba11]

This was exactly what I hoped and expected from you :cheers:



The point is that Pippen couldn't shoot, so how could he be anything more than an athletic defender/dunker in today's game? That's what he was in the 90's too without the triangle and decade apprentice alongside the GOAT to get a bunch of unguarded and flow points (system player - nothing outside of it - watch Draymond disappear when he goes to Washington just like pippen in houston - how is it that I can predict that - it's because we've seen system players carried by goats before)

[Axe]

No triangle, no miracle. :kobe:

[ShawkFactory]

The point is that Pippen couldn't shoot, so how could he be anything more than an athletic defender/dunker in today's game? That's what he was in the 90's too without the triangle and decade apprentice alongside the GOAT to get a bunch of unguarded and flow points (system player - nothing outside of it - watch Draymond disappear when he goes to Washington just like pippen in houston - how is it that I can predict that - it's because we've seen system players carried by goats before)

Jimmy Butler

[3ba11]

No triangle, no miracle. :kobe:


How many rings without MJ or his clone (Kobe)

averaging 30 in triangle as the closer (taking all the tough shots in the 4th) is goat achievement and demonstration of skill

Without MJ or Kobe to dominate with quick-iso's on-call in the triangle, the triangle is nothing - their goat-scoring ability and diversity is the key that unlocks the triangle's greatness

When they caught the ball in the triangle, there was an expectation that they score NOW - no other perimeter players had that expectation in history or could fulfill that video-game like scoring demand..

without MJ or Kobe, no one knows what the triangle is and triangle stays an unknown, non-descript offense that never won anything on the NBA level

[3ba11]

Jimmy Butler


Jimmy Butler has crazy pull-up game and smoother shot-making ability from any distance, while Pippen's pull-up game is a feet-shuffler worse than Lebron's.. No comparison.. Perhaps to the nascent observer, it seems subtle but it really isn't.. Butler has touch and lighter feet

[Axe]

No phil, no kill. :coleman:

[3ba11]

No phil, no kill. :coleman:


Phil was cool but he would never have decided to shoot for goat chemistry via the triangle with Lebron's ball-dominant skillset and lack of expert jumpshooting skill - the triangle doesn't use a PG role or ball-dominator and requires quick-iso's...

And at least the 90's NBA didn't have to say "okay, we're going to make it so this guy gets to the Finals every year - give him as many chances as possible" like they did with Lebron smh.. Stockton talks about it here (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/john-stockton-gives-his-take-on-super-teams-where-i-have-issues-in-is-trying-to-manipulate-the-environment/ar-AA1ftMor?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=ac97b018802146919f53d6a65a611fff&ei=38)

[Full Court]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-12-2017/L4sz8i.gif

:roll:


Ether.

[ShawkFactory]

Jimmy Butler has crazy pull-up game and smoother shot-making ability from any distance, while Pippen's pull-up game is a feet-shuffler worse than Lebron's.. No comparison.. Perhaps to the nascent observer, it seems subtle but it really isn't.. Butler has touch and lighter feet

Not always. Check him in 2015.

These are skills he developed over the years. He always was athletic and big and had great playmaking skills but the smoothness that we’ve seen the last few years wasn’t always there.

It’s also funny saying Pippen was a bad shooter. He had multiple years shooting like 36-37% from 3 at near top of the league volume.

[Axe]

Phil was cool but he would never have decided to shoot for goat chemistry via the triangle with Lebron's ball-dominant skillset and lack of expert jumpshooting skill - the triangle doesn't use a PG role or ball-dominator and requires quick-iso's...

And at least the 90's NBA didn't have to say "okay, we're going to make it so this guy gets to the Finals every year - give him as many chances as possible" like they did with Lebron smh.. Stockton talks about it here (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/john-stockton-gives-his-take-on-super-teams-where-i-have-issues-in-is-trying-to-manipulate-the-environment/ar-AA1ftMor?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=ac97b018802146919f53d6a65a611fff&ei=38)
Yet doug collins still sucked. (https://i.ibb.co/9sM1BRX/IMG-20230123-110228.jpg) :confusedshrug:

[tpols]

Jimmy Butler

Pippen never had a playoff run with 40 point games on great efficiency and clutch takeovers like we've seen from Jimmy butler the past couple years. He didn't have butlers scoring bag or ability.

[ShawkFactory]

Pippen never had a playoff run with 40 point games on great efficiency and clutch takeovers like we've seen from Jimmy butler the past couple years. He didn't have butlers scoring bag or ability.

Yea but the argument wasn’t about that. It was actually about not translating number over eras, which you’ve just tried to do.

So once again you have no idea what is going on.

Before you reply please try to grasp what the conversation is. Even just slightly.

[RRR3]

Yea but the argument wasn’t about that. It was actually about not translating number over eras, which you’ve just tried to do.

So once again you have no idea what is going on.

Before you reply please try to grasp what the conversation is. Even just slightly.
Damn.

[ShawkFactory]

It's funny though with the whole Pippen is a garbage shooter thing. Picking out just 1996 because that's usually the start of the conversation with some folks about him being bad: he made the same amount of 3s as Dale Ellis. More than Hershey Hawkins, Dan Majerle, and John Starks. 18 less than Reggie Miller.

Funny how some who didn't watch him remember him.

[tpols]

Yea but the argument wasn’t about that. It was actually about not translating number over eras, which you’ve just tried to do.


Jimmy Butler eye test in general is better. It's a poor comparison not only impact wise but stylistically. Pippen simply doesn't have Jimmy's midrange bag or scoring arsenal and he damn sure never stepped up in the clutch like butler even in just this past year alone.

Not just to do with spacing or numbers, Jimmy stepped his game up in clutch time and even took down loaded Bucks multiple times who have a great defense btw. Leading 8 seeds to Finals and winning as underdog a bunch in an alpha scoring role. Pippen never did that. And there's no evidence to suggest he could do it today.

[ShawkFactory]

Jimmy Butler eye test in general is better. It's a poor comparison not only impact wise but stylistically. Pippen simply doesn't have Jimmy's midrange bag or scoring arsenal and he damn sure never stepped up in the clutch like butler even in just this past year alone.

Not just to do with spacing or numbers, Jimmy stepped his game up in clutch time and even took down loaded Bucks multiple times who have a great defense btw. Leading 8 seeds to Finals and winning as underdog a bunch in an alpha scoring role. Pippen never did that. And there's no evidence to suggest he could do it today.

Don’t act like you watched Pippen play.

[Full Court]

It's funny though with the whole Pippen is a garbage shooter thing. Picking out just 1996 because that's usually the start of the conversation with some folks about him being bad: he made the same amount of 3s as Dale Ellis. More than Hershey Hawkins, Dan Majerle, and John Starks. 18 less than Reggie Miller.

Funny how some who didn't watch him remember him.

It's only a handful of people who push a warped view of Pippen. Almost everyone recognizes him as the deserving HOFer that he is. You just have like two people who say he was crap, because they think acknowledging he was a great player somehow takes away from Jordan, and they massively underrate him. And then you have a few others who massively overrate him and act like he was the one carrying the Bulls, because they think it justifies ranking Jordan lower. We're talking a tiny minority there though.

[Baller234]

Pippen was definitely not a bad shooter. He wasn't elite but he was definitely reliable.

Butler is better than Pippen in the halfcourt, Pippen was better on the fast break. Butler is more skilled, Pippen is quicker and more athletic.