Are analytics wrong about Allen Iverson? | Offensive Legends Ep. 3

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7szKpp0Q2c

[Full Court]

I highly doubt that OP knows what analytics are.

[Xiao Yao You]

Maybe the biggest low iq gunner the game has ever seen. A warrior with a lot of heart and not a lot of smarts

[Kblaze8855]

Maybe the biggest low iq gunner the game has ever seen. A warrior with a lot of heart and not a lot of smarts


Would a smarter player win a ring with Eric Snow, Aaron Mckie, George Lynch, Tyrone Hill, Mutombo, Todd Mac, Matt Geiger, Kevin Ollie, and Jumaine Jones?

people regarded as intelligent fundamental Hall of Fame players were paired with prime MVPs and additional All-Stars and we’re out there losing in the first round, over and over and generally disappointing in the playoffs. But let Allen Iverson lose on teams no one in the history of the game has ever won with and it’s because he’s an idiot.

Allen Iverson isn’t even close to a short list of people who had their teams under perform. People talk like the nuggets winning four more games and losing to the same team in a later round is damning because he had Melo and Kenyon Martin as if we didn’t watch Dirk and Nash together with not one…but 3 additional all stars…lose in the first round.

Let peak AI have a prime MVP, the DPOY, and a 20ppg sixth man and get swept in the first round. He’d never hear the end of it.

The minor failures made out to be examples of his style of play being damaging to a team are ridiculous compared to some of the true collapses and let downs in NBA history. Nothing he’s ever done even deserves a spot in the top 50 failures relative to what teams had to work with.

Missing the playoffs with one kneed Webber. Not winning a ring with the least offensively talented lineup anyone can even remember existing. Winning 50 games then losing to the champion lakers with young Melo.

Mvps were out there losing in the first round teamed with other mvps and 2 more all stars. And I don’t even mean the time I already mentioned. Moses Malone and Dr. Jay lost in the first round to an actual crackhead while backed up with two or three other All-Star level players. Nobody brings it up. But let Allen Iverson only win like 48 games and a playoff series with Kenny Thomas and the decaying remains of Derrick Coleman and he’s just the most malignant cancer.

[tpols]

He's like Westbrook in that he's a good floor raiser for a team because of his motor and constant pressure he puts on defenses and the volume he can produce. Iverson played a lot off ball too so there was that spacing effect. The main problem is just like Westbrook he always tries to take too many shots even when he's on a good team... like on the 2004 Olympic team playing with prime Duncan and other All Stars. He took the most shots and missed the vast majority of them, ended up basically shooting them out of it along with Marbury. A smart guard would try to feed peak Tim Duncan more instead of jacking up all the shots himself. He was a hero baller with poor intangibles that's for sure even if his physical talent was spectacular.

[Kblaze8855]

He's like Westbrook in that he's a good floor raiser for a team because of his motor and constant pressure he puts on defenses and the volume he can produce. Iverson played a lot of ball too so there was that spacing effect. The main problem is just like Westbrook he always tries to take too many shots even when he's on a good team... like on the 2004 Olympic team playing with prime Duncan and other All Stars. He took the most shots and missed the vast majority of them, ended up basically shooting them out of it along with Marbury. A smart guard would try to feed peak Tim Duncan more instead of jacking up all the shots himself. He was a hero baller with poor intangibles that's for sure even if his physical talent was spectacular.


If only they could have sent smart unselfish savvy guards like Andre Miller and Reggie…or Chris Paul, Wade, Hinrich, and Lebron. I’m sure that wouldn’t have failed. They won in 02 and 06 with those backcourts instead of AI mucking up the works right? Surely they did. No need to even check. I’m sure he was the problem and things went smoothly with their 18 all stars those years he didn’t play. Certainly that’s what happened. They couldn’t have lost to the same team with the squad before he got there right? And then took like 7 hall of famers to lose to a role player backup from the rockets and 10 guys you never heard of? Right?

No way that happens without Iverson on the floor does it?

[Wally450]

Maybe the biggest low iq gunner the game has ever seen. A warrior with a lot of heart and not a lot of smarts

25 shots per game to average 31ppg.

[1987_Lakers]

If only they could have sent smart unselfish savvy guards like Andre Miller and Reggie…or Chris Paul, Wade, Hinrich, and Lebron. I’m sure that wouldn’t have failed. They won in 02 and 06 with those backcourts instead of AI mucking up the works right? Surely they did. No need to even check. I’m sure he was the problem and things went smoothly with their 18 all stars those years he didn’t play. Certainly that’s what happened. They couldn’t have lost to the same team with the squad before he got there right? And then took like 7 hall of famers to lose to a role player backup from the rockets and 10 guys you never heard of? Right?

No way that happens without Iverson on the floor does it?

Come on man, dude shot 38% in the '04 Olympics while leading everyone in attempts, he wasn't doing the team any favors.

[Xiao Yao You]

Would a smarter player win a ring with Eric Snow, Aaron Mckie, George Lynch, Tyrone Hill, Mutombo, Todd Mac, Matt Geiger, Kevin Ollie, and Jumaine Jones?

people regarded as intelligent fundamental Hall of Fame players were paired with prime MVPs and additional All-Stars and we’re out there losing in the first round, over and over and generally disappointing in the playoffs. But let Allen Iverson lose on teams no one in the history of the game has ever won with and it’s because he’s an idiot.

Allen Iverson isn’t even close to a short list of people who had their teams under perform. People talk like the nuggets winning four more games and losing to the same team in a later round is damning because he had Melo and Kenyon Martin as if we didn’t watch Dirk and Nash together with not one…but 3 additional all stars…lose in the first round.

Let peak AI have a prime MVP, the DPOY, and a 20ppg sixth man and get swept in the first round. He’d never hear the end of it.

The minor failures made out to be examples of his style of play being damaging to a team are ridiculous compared to some of the true collapses and let downs in NBA history. Nothing he’s ever done even deserves a spot in the top 50 failures relative to what teams had to work with.

Missing the playoffs with one kneed Webber. Not winning a ring with the least offensively talented lineup anyone can even remember existing. Winning 50 games then losing to the champion lakers with young Melo.

Mvps were out there losing in the first round teamed with other mvps and 2 more all stars. And I don’t even mean the time I already mentioned. Moses Malone and Dr. Jay lost in the first round to an actual crackhead while backed up with two or three other All-Star level players. Nobody brings it up. But let Allen Iverson only win like 48 games and a playoff series with Kenny Thomas and the decaying remains of Derrick Coleman and he’s just the most malignant cancer.

He won a ring? I don't think going to the finals out of the east at that time was much of a feat personally. The peak MVP would be standing around watching Iverson throw up prayers against triple teams.

[Xiao Yao You]

He's like Westbrook in that he's a good floor raiser for a team because of his motor and constant pressure he puts on defenses and the volume he can produce. Iverson played a lot off ball too so there was that spacing effect. The main problem is just like Westbrook he always tries to take too many shots even when he's on a good team... like on the 2004 Olympic team playing with prime Duncan and other All Stars. He took the most shots and missed the vast majority of them, ended up basically shooting them out of it along with Marbury. A smart guard would try to feed peak Tim Duncan more instead of jacking up all the shots himself. He was a hero baller with poor intangibles that's for sure even if his physical talent was spectacular.

Westbrook is certainly comparable. Both left it all on the floor. Just not smart players

[Kblaze8855]

Come on man, dude shot 38% in the '04 Olympics while leading everyone in attempts, he wasn't doing the team any favors.


Then his replacement shot 58% as they lost anyway the same way they lost with the team before him. You’d think that would be evidence enough that it isn’t as simple as surface level evaluations make fans think…but no.

[Xiao Yao You]

Come on man, dude shot 38% in the '04 Olympics while leading everyone in attempts, he wasn't doing the team any favors.

not to mention the bad influence he had on the game of basketball. It's never been the same since they started letting him carry the ball

[Manny98]

The older I have gotten the more and more I have gone away from analytics when observing players and have gotten a much higher appreciation for guys like Kobe, Iverson and Jason Kidd who advanced stats don't particularly favor and feel like the pro advanced stats guys like Chris Paul, Nash, and Harden have become overrated

Iverson carried a 76ers offense all the way to the finals something a lot of guys who are better "analytically" have failed to do despite having equal or better supporting casts

[warriorfan]

not to mention the bad influence he had on the game of basketball. It's never been the same since they started letting him carry the ball

gobert has had a great influence on basketball with his whole not being able to dribble the ball at all and having no real offensive skills

awesome product for the nba

must see tv

[Xiao Yao You]

The older I have gotten the more and more I have gone away from analytics when observing players and have gotten a much higher appreciation for guys like Kobe, Iverson and Jason Kidd who advanced stats don't particularly favor and feel like the pro advanced stats guys like Chris Paul, Nash, and Harden have become overrated

Iverson carried a 76ers offense all the way to the finals something a lot of guys who are better "analytically" have failed to do despite having equal or better supporting casts

How many finals would some of the greats in the west have had if they had been playing in the east?

[Xiao Yao You]

gobert has had a great influence on basketball with his whole not being able to dribble the ball at all and having no real offensive skills

awesome product for the nba

must see tv

The premier rim runner and defender of his generation so yeah all of the guys trying to play that role have watched film on Gobert I'm sure. Certainly one of the guys I've enjoyed watching most.

[Phoenix]

Iverson's advanced numbers are going to make him look worse in an era where we're now measuring greatness by excel sheets. I don't recall watching him in his peak and thinking 'that's a dumb player', but maybe I'm getting senile. That dude was 150 soaking wet and needed shoes with 2 inch soles to break 6 feet, shooting over trees in the lane and taller perimeter defenders. I also feel like some of his crossover highlights have mis-represented that he was a better catch and shoot player coming off screens and general off-ball movement than he's given credit for. People talk about him like he was James Harden dribbling out the clock for 22 seconds, that really wasn't how he played.

[warriorfan]

The premier rim runner and defender of his generation so yeah all of the guys trying to play that role have watched film on Gobert I'm sure. Certainly one of the guys I've enjoyed watching most.

yeah I agree gobert has been so much better for the league then allen iverson.


I love guys who can’t dribble at all, carrying rules or no carrying rules. and guys that set screens and don’t have any real offensive moves, then watching them get roasted in pick and roll situations on the defensive side


**** AI

give me gobert


must see tv

[Manny98]

yeah I agree gobert has been so much better for the league then allen iverson.


I love guys who can’t dribble at all, carrying rules or no carrying rules. and guys that set screens and don’t have any real offensive moves, then watching them get roasted in pick and roll situations on the defensive side


**** AI

give me gobert


must see tv
:oldlol:

[Xiao Yao You]

yeah I agree gobert has been so much better for the league then allen iverson.


I love guys who can’t dribble at all, carrying rules or no carrying rules. and guys that set screens and don’t have any real offensive moves, then watching them get roasted in pick and roll situations on the defensive side


**** AI

give me gobert


must see tv

I'm about impact. Gobert's impact has been huge. As usual the trolls have nothing so it becomes about Gobert. :roll:

[Kblaze8855]

He won a ring? I don't think going to the finals out of the east at that time was much of a feat personally. The peak MVP would be standing around watching Iverson throw up prayers against triple teams.

Doing the exact opposite of that accomplished precisely the same thing, despite being given much much more talent and long-term stability to achieve it. In the end, we just watch everybody fail, and only decide to blame a certain kind of person for it even when the people who play the way we consider proper lose just as much, even on teams loaded with talent.

Give AI Eric Snow Kenny Thomas and the last useful 45 minutes of Keith Van horn and get 48 wins and go to the second round. Same year Jermaine O’Neal, Ron Artest, Reggie, and Brad Miller win the same number of games and lose in the first round.

Lesson? AI is a cancer.

Fact is his entire prime all his teams were as good as or better than they should be with the exception of the year Webber was somewhat healthy. And guys in the hall of fame out here missing the playoffs with 3 additional hall of famers the oldest of which was only 31 and nobody has even heard of it.

Why? Because we pick and choose when to drag out those narratives and for whom.

Allen Iverson had a perfectly normal career winning wise for a legend and in fact did more with less than most. Top 10 to 15 guys would spend six or seven years with prime all-time greats on the top 50 list and never win a playoff series. Several of those guys play together on the same team their entire primes and never won anything. But people talking about Allen Iverson like he was out there ruining teams that should have been incredible.

Much better players than AI won less with better teams and don’t catch half the flack because people have been conditioned to ignore efficient shooting losers as if it’s a lowercase L when you efficiently lose a game you had no business losing. It’s really the only way most fans seem to have to evaluate performance and tie it to the results. 170 shots get taken. Then they blame the two one guy missed to drop his percentage below what they deem acceptable.

As if there wasn’t 47 minutes and 55 seconds of basketball played outside those 5 seconds. Or as if having Eric Snow go one on one with 4 seconds on the shot clock was more likely to result in points.

There were times him gambling on defense had more to do with them losing a game than him shooting whatever he shot from the field but fans have been wired to care about very little else. And it often comes from fans who think themselves the most discerning. It’s always been weird to me.

[Kblaze8855]

not to mention the bad influence he had on the game of basketball. It's never been the same since they started letting him carry the ball

They didn’t let him carry the ball. He was one of the only people they ever stopped. He was in the league with Grant Hill rocking the ball back-and-forth and Jason Kidd doing the same thing coming up the court for absolutely no reason. There used to be a brutal NBA TV Commercial where grant hill was walking up the court in slow motion, spinning the ball in his palm looking over the court, and I could never believe they chose one of the most blatant carries I’ve ever seen in my life to spotlight for a commercial. The refs called it on AI almost exclusively not the other people. he was getting called for traveling while Patrick Ewing was doing his three steps across the lane pull up for years before anybody heard Allen Iverson’s name.

[dankok8]

Doing the exact opposite of that accomplished precisely the same thing, despite being given much much more talent and long-term stability to achieve it. In the end, we just watch everybody fail, and only decide to blame a certain kind of person for it even when the people who play the way we consider proper lose just as much, even on teams loaded with talent.

Give AI Eric Snow Kenny Thomas and the last useful 45 minutes of Keith Van horn and get 48 wins and go to the second round. Same year Jermaine O’Neal, Ron Artest, Reggie, and Brad Miller win the same number of games and lose in the first round.

Lesson? AI is a cancer.

Fact is his entire prime all his teams were as good as or better than they should be with the exception of the year Webber was somewhat healthy. And guys in the hall of fame out here missing the playoffs with 3 additional hall of famers the oldest of which was only 31 and nobody has even heard of it.

Why? Because we pick and choose when to drag out those narratives and for whom.

Allen Iverson had a perfectly normal career winning wise for a legend and in fact did more with less than most. Top 10 to 15 guys would spend six or seven years with prime all-time greats on the top 50 list and never win a playoff series. Several of those guys play together on the same team their entire primes and never won anything. But people talking about Allen Iverson like he was out there ruining teams that should have been incredible.

Much better players than AI won less with better teams and don’t catch half the flack because people have been conditioned to ignore efficient shooting losers as if it’s a lowercase L when you efficiently lose a game you had no business losing. It’s really the only way most fans seem to have to evaluate performance and tie it to the results. 170 shots get taken. Then they blame the two one guy missed to drop his percentage below what they deem acceptable.

As if there wasn’t 47 minutes and 55 seconds of basketball played outside those 5 seconds. Or as if having Eric Snow go one on one with 4 seconds on the shot clock was more likely to result in points.

There were times him gambling on defense had more to do with them losing a game than him shooting whatever he shot from the field but fans have been wired to care about very little else. And it often comes from fans who think themselves the most discerning. It’s always been weird to me.

:applause:

Ben Taylor briefly mentioned something and still kind of undersold Iverson IMO. AI was actually a very low turnover player for his USG%. Thus despite shooting poorly he was still a relatively efficient offensive player overall. People sometimes forget that a turnover is worse than a missed shot.

[Jasper]

AI was a high volume shooter cause his team had no one else.

It reminds me of D-wade for about 4 years carrying the Heat.

The wear on those guys must be unbelievable.

[Xiao Yao You]

AI was a high volume shooter cause his team had no one else.

It reminds me of D-wade for about 4 years carrying the Heat.

The wear on those guys must be unbelievable.

He was a high volume shooter no matter who he played with

[Axe]

I'm about impact. Gobert's impact has been huge. As usual the trolls have nothing so it becomes about Gobert. :roll:
Lololol

[ILLsmak]

Like ai said to dude when he was like would u improving ur percentage… “What u kno about bball, u ever played?”

Ai isnt like wb. Ai is legit. I feel like people hard hate on melo but nobody can deny hes a ball stopper. Any people saying ai was a cancer or chucker should see that dude played w prime melo and was able to shine. You put wb there and he does nathan. Esp at 30+. He def was a shot creator but i was watching him score on denver, dude had to drive around melo too cuz the guy would come up in the post and block off the whole side every time. The kinda shots ai got were dumb and people talk about his teammates accolades the year he won, but coach nah, sixth man nah, dpoy mbe… if 6ers werent such a great team. They had to explain it somehow.

Analytics need to measure how many looks he got other people who had very very limited skillsets. Were not talkin about pau or even odom, not even sasha… these dudes were brick yard dawgs. And this was a low scoring nba. They didnt need that much d. if ai had some finishers and shooters, it would be a wrap. Same w what i said about shaq, ask dudes who played him. Dude was 6 ft which limited him on defense, but otherwise…

-Smak

[Im Still Ballin]

Allen Iverson is an interesting Litmus test for analysing NBA players and, more specifically, scoring.

When looking purely at his basic counting stats, he looks pretty damn amazing. Truly elite in fact. However, when looking through his advanced stats, and other metrics, all of a sudden Allen looks much less impressive, especially in regards to his shooting efficiency. When analyzed even further, Allen flips back around a bit, where it seems that despite his ineffciency, his volume scoring and playmaking can be at a truly elite level, especially in the playoffs. Whereas some fans (and especially former players) seem to heavily overrate AI, lauding his scoring prowess and 'bag', as well as conflating his impact on the league with his abilities and for some reason giving him a boost simply for being small; others still under-rate him, citing his poor scoring efficiency and writing off his game entirely. It seems that the truth of Allen Iverson lies, as it often does, somewhere in the middle.

https://i.ibb.co/qYg4z7J/wC3F4t9.jpg

[Overdrive]

He won a ring? I don't think going to the finals out of the east at that time was much of a feat personally. The peak MVP would be standing around watching Iverson throw up prayers against triple teams.

Blaze ment to be more accomplished a more efficient replacement would have needed to win a ring in AIs situation else that argument is futile.

Let's just have a look at a guy you keep on raving about.

Stockton never won a ring either. He was very efficient, had a two time MVP superstar on his team yet couldn't get further than Iverson. Why? Do you think the 14ppg Stockton could lead the 2001 Sixers to the finals over the Bucks just because he denied taking lower percentage shots? That's not how winning basketball works. It never did it never will.

[Phoenix]

He was a high volume shooter no matter who he played with

Which teams improved by him being a lower volume shooter?

[Im Still Ballin]

Imagine if AI played in today's era with a bunch of great defensive role players that can shoot well. Compare the spacing! He'd cause havoc on and off the ball.

https://i.postimg.cc/SNBTwcjS/Harden-Spacing.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/BZ1wNhQY/Iverson.jpg

[Reggie43]

Loved AI but he was a chucker that was hard to coach and harder to build around because of his playstyle and attitude but still a top 5-10 all time level talent and so much fun to watch

[Clifton]

I wish defenses of AI didn't tend to use as their most important piece of evidence how hard he had to work to do what he did because he was small. You don't get extra points for being small.

For the most part I love the defense AI is getting in this thread, but we shouldn't pretend that it wasn't widely thought at the time that AI could only be paired with a very small cross section of NBA players. I thought the same, I think so now, and I don't know with what real basis I could begin to revisit that opinion in order to change it. He was a high floor, low ceiling superstar. It was the reason nobody considered him a top 5 player at any point in his prime, even though everyone loved him. Westbrook is the apt comparison-- who himself is underrated by the analytics generation, though they are not wrong about him, exactly. It's true basketball isn't played with a calculator, but at the same time, wins and losses are decided by the numbers on the scoreboard when the clock reads :00.

Another thought: I've always thought AI's finals trip was a fluke because the Eastern Conference was really weak in his prime. That may be so, but the eastern conference is really good now, and the Heat have made the finals 2 of the last 3 years. I don't think we could say with confidence that AI wouldn't pull the exact same shit Jimmy Butler is doing right now.

[jlip]

I mean do analytics tell us anything about AI that objective viewers didn't think about him in the first place?

[warriorfan]

https://i.ibb.co/qYg4z7J/wC3F4t9.jpg

:lol

True

[Johnny32]

Didn't this clown used to have lebron as his goat way back before 2020 even then changed it to appeal to the mass casual tards who barely follow basketball and only know MJ because of his shoes. Embarrassing.

[ILLsmak]

I wish defenses of AI didn't tend to use as their most important piece of evidence how hard he had to work to do what he did because he was small. You don't get extra points for being small.

For the most part I love the defense AI is getting in this thread, but we shouldn't pretend that it wasn't widely thought at the time that AI could only be paired with a very small cross section of NBA players. I thought the same, I think so now, and I don't know with what real basis I could begin to revisit that opinion in order to change it. He was a high floor, low ceiling superstar. It was the reason nobody considered him a top 5 player at any point in his prime, even though everyone loved him. Westbrook is the apt comparison-- who himself is underrated by the analytics generation, though they are not wrong about him, exactly. It's true basketball isn't played with a calculator, but at the same time, wins and losses are decided by the numbers on the scoreboard when the clock reads :00.

Another thought: I've always thought AI's finals trip was a fluke because the Eastern Conference was really weak in his prime. That may be so, but the eastern conference is really good now, and the Heat have made the finals 2 of the last 3 years. I don't think we could say with confidence that AI wouldn't pull the exact same shit Jimmy Butler is doing right now.

If he didn't W game 1 and get in bogus foul trouble in some of those other games in the Finals v the ATG Playoff Laker team, I might agree.

Still, by far the most amazing thing to me is that people are comparing AI to WB haha.

-Smak

[tpols]

If he didn't W game 1 and get in bogus foul trouble in some of those other games in the Finals v the ATG Playoff Laker team, I might agree.

Still, by far the most amazing thing to me is that people are comparing AI to WB haha.

-Smak

Yo Smak it's not that far off. :lol

Iverson shot 34% from the field in the 2001 ECFs. 30 ppg on 34% FG and 97 ORTG.

That's UGLY.... lmao.

Larry Brown + Mutumbo + gritty role players defense was carrying them.

[brownmamba00]

If a 5'10 guy like IT can get MVP votes in this league, can you imagine prime AI on this Miami Heat team?

He'd average like 36 easily. He'd average a nickel in the East.

[brownmamba00]

yeah I agree gobert has been so much better for the league then allen iverson.


I love guys who can’t dribble at all, carrying rules or no carrying rules. and guys that set screens and don’t have any real offensive moves, then watching them get roasted in pick and roll situations on the defensive side


**** AI

give me gobert


must see tv

:roll:

[Xiao Yao You]

If a 5'10 guy like IT can get MVP votes in this league, can you imagine prime AI on this Miami Heat team?

He'd average like 36 easily. He'd average a nickel in the East.

and they would be a lot worse team.

[brownmamba00]

and they would be a lot worse team.

Disagree. Kyle Lowry is an average point guard. You take him out and put AI in there. Thats a ring right there.

[Xiao Yao You]

Disagree. Kyle Lowry is an average point guard. You take him out and put AI in there. Thats a ring right there.

Butler standing around watching Iverson. Not a recipe for success

[brownmamba00]

Butler standing around watching Iverson. Not a recipe for success

You just mad I laughed at the Gobert post. Imagine being a Gobert fan. Straight sucka shit.

[Lebron23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7szKpp0Q2c Iverson played the point guard position in his first two seasons in the NBA. He became a combo guard aka undersized shooting guard after Jerry Stackhouse demanded to be traded to the Pistons in November 1997. Biggest Criticism of Iverson's game is him being an inefficient scorer. Larry Brown was a good defensive coach, but he is not a good offensive coach. If you put Iverson with a Prime Kevin Garnett i think he can win 1 or 2 nba titles during the Shaq and Duncan era.

'It wasn't working out on the court,'' Coach Larry Brown said of the teaming of point guard Iverson, last year's rookie of the year, with the shooting guard Stackhouse, the third overall pick in the 1995 draft.
''I was hopeful Jerry and Allen could get together, but after I watched us play as a team, I didn't think it was going to work out"

[ILLsmak]

Yo Smak it's not that far off. :lol

Iverson shot 34% from the field in the 2001 ECFs. 30 ppg on 34% FG and 97 ORTG.

That's UGLY.... lmao.

Larry Brown + Mutumbo + gritty role players defense was carrying them.

It is and maybe that series was rigged, too, but they made it thru and faced a team nobody else was beating. Bucks seemed to be a tough match up, jus like kobe showed out v some teams or old shaq w d wade. Stuff happens.

Plus ai got the comfy w w 40 n gm 7.

But even still wb lol ai atg scorer, no one can deny that. Wb is a pace controller. Diff roles completely. Wb has decent stats, his stats were only ass when he became ass.

-Smak

[Xiao Yao You]

You just mad I laughed at the Gobert post. Imagine being a Gobert fan. Straight sucka shit.

imagine actually thinking one of the most impactful players in the league sucks :facepalm

[ILLsmak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCctIpNXzmk

Lets go down memory lane and see what ivo does in gm 7 after cassell trips em.

-Smak