What makes today's players seem so much better?

[iamgine]

Per 100:

Embiid 2023: 47-15-6

Bird's first MVP: 30-13-8

Moses's first MVP: 28-20-2



I mean they can't even be compared. Look like peak Shaq vs old Rik Smits or something.

[warriorfan]

defensive rule changes, load management, a generally less intensive regular season for everyone involved.

and for per 100 stats it gets even more inflated because players play less minutes now. it’s easier to play well for 30 mpg and get it extrapolated up to 100 possessions per game rather than playing 40+ and doing the same. Think if you had to sprint for 30 minutes or 40 minutes….over what period will you have the higher average speed? the more you play the harder it is to sustain your averages.

[Kblaze8855]

Stars are force fed the ball more these days. And we barely notice. Giannis shot more per minute his last mvp season than Iverson did in any season of his career. You watch one of those old games stars don’t have the ball the whole game. A lot of analytics driven coaches today figure if good things happen at a higher rate when my star has the ball why should anybody else have the ball? That isn’t how people were taught to play back then. The people like that were mocked not encouraged.

If you tell Grant Hill you’re gonna spread the floor and he can dribble for 13 seconds if that’s what it takes to get by and score or find a shooter his per minute numbers would rise. He wouldn’t be any better…but he’d generate stats at a higher rate.

[Im Still Ballin]

Pretty much what warriorfan and kblaze said. There was a great Thinking Basketball podcast with either Stan Van Gundy or Mike D'Antoni that covered what kblaze is talking about. I know it was covered in the D'Antoni one because they were discussing James Harden and Houston's ugly style of play.

But Stan Van Gundy also talked about it; he said they'd give the other guys touches/plays just to keep them happy. Like post-ups for mediocre offensive players.

[Im Still Ballin]

Somewhere in these videos:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lgQfav761g&pp=ygUhdGhpbmtpbmcgYmFza2V0YmFsbCBtaWtlIGQnYW50b25 p


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejXhSeJ0Fzw&pp=ygUidGhpbmtpbmcgYmFza2V0YmFsbCBzdGFuIHZhbiBndW5 keQ%3D%3D

[Thorpesaurous]

Pretty much what warriorfan and kblaze said. There was a great Thinking Basketball podcast with either Stan Van Gundy or Mike D'Antoni that covered what kblaze is talking about. I know it was covered in the D'Antoni one because they were discussing James Harden and Houston's ugly style of play.

But Stan Van Gundy also talked about it; he said they'd give the other guys touches/plays just to keep them happy. Like post-ups for mediocre offensive players.


This also has a lot to do with why the depth of the league seemed deeper, or probably was deeper, in years past. Teams today are built more with specialists that fit around a couple of guys who are designed to be played though, where many older rosters were built with a more of an overall talent idea. Salary cap has probably hurt a ton on this front too.

[Kblaze8855]

This also has a lot to do with why the depth of the league seemed deeper, or probably was deeper, in years past. Teams today are built more with specialists that fit around a couple of guys who are designed to be played though, where many older rosters were built with a more of an overall talent idea. Salary cap has probably hurt a ton on this front too.


Expansion.

A league without the Magic, Twolves, Mavs, Raptors, Grizzlies, Pelicans, and Heat would have teams too deep to play heliocentric ball. It’s offset some by more internationals but expansion took a big chunk of teams talent.

[Thorpesaurous]

Expansion.

A league without the Magic, Twolves, Mavs, Raptors, Grizzlies, Pelicans, Magic, and Heat would have teams too deep to play heliocentric ball. It’s offset some by more internationals but expansion took a big chunk of teams talent.

Expansion definitely was a huge part of it. But I'm more talking about the idea that a current team would employ both Bird and McHale in the current league. It would more than likely be cost prohibitive. But in addition to that, teams would be looking for more fit out of the money they're spending.

[Johnny32]

They also seem better by the eye test unless you're in denial about it. More skilled, better conditioning, better work ethic, the list goes on and on.

[Charlie Sheen]

This also has a lot to do with why the depth of the league seemed deeper, or probably was deeper, in years past. Teams today are built more with specialists that fit around a couple of guys who are designed to be played though, where many older rosters were built with a more of an overall talent idea. Salary cap has probably hurt a ton on this front too.

This is even more pronounced in baseball. The blueprint is find a couple stars and fill out the rest of the roster with platooning players that complement each other. Hardly anybody runs the same infield out there for even a 3 game series anymore.

Nobody is asked to do anything they are not good at.

[nineiron]

They also seem better by the eye test unless you're in denial about it. More skilled, better conditioning, better work ethic, the list goes on and on.

more skilled? - with players like Giannis and Lebron, i don't think so. chucking 3 pointers doesn't make one "more skilled"
better conditioning? - what makes you think this? why is there so much load management if players are better conditioned?
better work ethic? - do you have any evidence of this? i'm sure Ja Morant's work ethic is elite LMFAO

the list goes on? - well, why don't you enlighten us with this list?

[Xiao Yao You]

This is even more pronounced in baseball. The blueprint is find a couple stars and fill out the rest of the roster with platooning players that complement each other. Hardly anybody runs the same infield out there for even a 3 game series anymore.

Nobody is asked to do anything they are not good at.

not much platooning anymore. Too many pitchers taking up roster spots

[TheMan]

more skilled? - with players like Giannis and Lebron, i don't think so. chucking 3 pointers doesn't make one "more skilled"
better conditioning? - what makes you think this? why is there so much load management if players are better conditioned?
better work ethic? - do you have any evidence of this? i'm sure Ja Morant's work ethic is elite LMFAO

the list goes on? - well, why don't you enlighten us with this list?

You bodybagged that idiot, well done :applause:

[elementally morale]

Stars are force fed the ball more these days. And we barely notice. Giannis shot more per minute his last mvp season than Iverson did in any season of his career. You watch one of those old games stars don’t have the ball the whole game. A lot of analytics driven coaches today figure if good things happen at a higher rate when my star has the ball why should anybody else have the ball? That isn’t how people were taught to play back then. The people like that were mocked not encouraged.

Spot on with the Giannis vs. Iverson thing.

On another note, this is exactly what makes Jokic exceptional. He has the ball many times but he doesn't dominate the ball. Getting everyone else involved proved to be successful even today. Five players are more likely to beat a team than one player. Jokic seems to be the ultimate teamplayer today but back in the day this would've been closer to the norm. Being the absurdly all-time great passer he is, some of his assists are possible mainly because the opponents think he will take the shot, especially inside the paint. Some of the time he does and some of the time he doesn't. So you have to defend him and you just don't know what to expect.

[ArbitraryWater]

Every sport somewhat evolves.

look at tennis now compared to a match from the 90s or even 2000s.

Its a much faster game now.


Tennis used to be top 20 and that was it, you could cruise in the early rounds of slams...

everyone behind the top 50 lacked offense and was limited, everyone but the best 2-3 were bits-and-pieces players...

nowadays the top 300 can seriously play and cause upsets to each other. There are like 20 players that are technically perfect.

[Im Still Ballin]

Every sport somewhat evolves.

look at tennis now compared to a match from the 90s or even 2000s.

Its a much faster game now.


Tennis used to be top 20 and that was it, you could cruise in the early rounds of slams...

everyone behind the top 50 lacked offense and was limited, everyone but the best 2-3 were bits-and-pieces players...

nowadays the top 300 can seriously play and cause upsets to each other. There are like 20 players that are technically perfect.

Don't the courts changing - becoming faster - have a lot to do with that? I remember reading somewhere that the speed of the courts have changed over time.

[ArbitraryWater]

Don't the courts changing - becoming faster - have a lot to do with that? I remember reading somewhere that the speed of the courts have changed over time.

The courts have been slowed down everywhere for more rallies and less S&V.


Its a different level of professionalism and discipline nowadays.

[ILLsmak]

Basically ignorance haha. As weve talked about, the bottom guys are a lot better in some ways, but some bottom guys may be more talented, but play roles worse.

Its just so different. The nba now is on some like pre 3 pt line era difference when compared to 80-201x. It was starting to change already but the completion of the change, both how the rules/salary cap/minutes/fake injuries are and the actual way players play, its unrecognizable. Its not some old man back in the day kobe v mj thing, its a completely different game. Thus, stats are not comparable, even accounting for pace.

I saw some vid of like 00s all star game defense v recent asg defense and it was just like ??? Dudes in nba now dont even defend like dudes did in the all star game haha. They dont fight for rebs either, hence triple doubles or high reb guards. I remm this dude i played bball with on ps years ago talkin about j kidd. He was like they still lettin that lil n1gga get rebs?? And its all that. Plus dudes pass off or hold it for final shots to make their 3 pt percentage better. Just more about self and entertainment than it used to be. Diff product. U fallin for hype if u like ooo these guys way better!

-Smak

[nineiron]

Every sport somewhat evolves.

look at tennis now compared to a match from the 90s or even 2000s.

Its a much faster game now.


Tennis used to be top 20 and that was it, you could cruise in the early rounds of slams...

everyone behind the top 50 lacked offense and was limited, everyone but the best 2-3 were bits-and-pieces players...

nowadays the top 300 can seriously play and cause upsets to each other. There are like 20 players that are technically perfect.


name them.

better yet, name just 5.

[ArbitraryWater]

name them.

better yet, name just 5.


Alcaraz, Sinner, Rune, Lehecka, Fils, Aliassime, Marozsan, Korda, Griekspoor, Wu, Ruusuvuori, Tiafoe, Cerundolo, Machac, Fokina, Paul, Shang, Cazaux, Arnaldi...

[Xiao Yao You]

equipment evolution changed tennis. With wooden rackets there was a lot more skill. Wasn't as much about power. Long rallys

[ArbitraryWater]

equipment evolution changed tennis. With wooden rackets there was a lot more skill. Wasn't as much about power. Long rallys

Haha, have you even seen a rally with wooden racquets? How old are you?

It was tough to keep the ball in pay with wooden racquets, they were basicay paying warm up tennis.

Poyester and hybrid strings add spin, but the game isnt just more spin based, its also faster, AND rallies are on average longer than ever before, and depth is deeper than ever before (literal, on court depth/ball placement).

Its never been this skilled.


It can seem quite monotone nowadays. People dont understand, the better a player gets, the harder a ball can precisely be hit, the more it numbs out the finer intricacies and variation within rallies, because that becomes harder to apply when the ball is getting smacked like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BooWUh5I3o&t=62s

[8Ball]

They also seem better by the eye test unless you're in denial about it. More skilled, better conditioning, better work ethic, the list goes on and on.

This.

[nineiron]

Alcaraz, Sinner, Rune, Lehecka, Fils, Aliassime, Marozsan, Korda, Griekspoor, Wu, Ruusuvuori, Tiafoe, Cerundolo, Machac, Fokina, Paul, Shang, Cazaux, Arnaldi...

if you think all these players are "technically perfect", you don't know anything about tennis.

and it's funny that you didn't name the player who's probably the closest thing to "technically perfect": Djokavic

[8Ball]

if you think all these players are "technically perfect", you don't know anything about tennis.

and it's funny that you didn't name the player who's probably the closest thing to "technically perfect": Djokavic

Any one of those players would win 20 grand slams in the 80s and 90s.

[nineiron]

Any one of those players would win 20 grand slams in the 80s and 90s.

just like lebitch would 'dominate' in the 80's and 90's right? LMFAO

[ArbitraryWater]

if you think all these players are "technically perfect", you don't know anything about tennis.

and it's funny that you didn't name the player who's probably the closest thing to "technically perfect": Djokavic


We know Djokovic is. But thats not a new phenomenon. You cant even spell his name. I doubt you even know some of the players I listed.

What are the technical flaws of those players?


I forgot more about tennis than youll ever know, but try pointing out their weaknesses.

[warriorfan]

I see what AW is getting at

If he got maxed out by a midget turk imagine how big of a p.ussy his ancestors were

[FilmyCogTurner]

The simple answer is improved dribbling skill while also allowing the players to carry the **** out of the ball.

[nineiron]

The simple answer is improved dribbling skill while also allowing the players to carry the **** out of the ball.

Don’t forget travelling

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

AW, join Talk Tennis, would be nice to have you on there.

[97 bulls]

The game is just different. There are alot more offensive liberties today than ever before. Players can travel, carry the ball, as well as the rule changes that have encouraged more offense.

[nineiron]

AW, join Talk Tennis, would be nice to have you on there.

he don't know shit about tennis

[90sgoat]

They don't seem better, even the stars seem much more like role players.

Every player today is basically either a PnR ball handler, a PnR roller or a corner 3 shooter.

There's on individuality or skill to it anymore. No personality.

[Charlie Sheen]

not much platooning anymore. Too many pitchers taking up roster spots

You are correct but not entirely. Some of this is offset by phasing out the pinch runner, designated pinch hitter and late inning defense guy. Those bench spots opened up for platoon players to start a few times each week vs lhp.

[MrFonzworth]

I see what AW is getting at

If he got maxed out by a midget turk imagine how big of a p.ussy his ancestors were

:yaohappy:

[Manny98]

Players today are playing with way more spacing and rules that makes it much easier to score

[CountDracula]

https://i.ibb.co/yV0ykff/EEE5-CF33-387-D-4517-A91-F-1-A146-A2-CE229.jpg (https://ibb.co/wYyWQ00)

https://i.ibb.co/tbSRfxt/99-CAB9-EE-25-A2-4-C27-82-D2-946954-F5-C871.jpg (https://ibb.co/Xz9HB3g)

https://i.ibb.co/HhsH599/124-E1-CEA-1-E8-E-4-E07-9-B59-01-EA180-FD489.jpg (https://ibb.co/9ZLrQdd)

https://i.ibb.co/8jrjHQC/8625-CD0-E-27-AB-4-F1-E-B7-E7-75-E8-F446-E55-A.jpg (https://ibb.co/vJ3JSMF)

[paksat]

I was at a court on saturday where one guy was carrying and traveling so much it was embarrassing to the game

after like his 10th travel I finally called it, ofc he wanted to say it wasn't a travel. Then we go back down the court and one of our players gets hacked by like 3 different players. I say, "that's gotta be something right... ?"

oh oh oh oh he didn't call nothing though, it's our ball!

I reply, "if you're not gonna give us that, i'm gonna call that travel"

huge stupid waste of time argument ensues and reminds me why I quit playing street ball.

We win, I take my ball start laughing and leave. I said during the game, "it's a shame the NBA let's players get away with what they do because now people out here on the street think that it's fine as well."

Players today don't follow the rules, and get paid 10x what they once did while setting a bad example for others. No rules = God mode

[rmt]

Any one of those players would win 20 grand slams in the 80s and 90s.

I strongly disagree. Courts today have been homogenized so that players can win 20 grand slams. Back in the 80s and 90s, courts were very different. Grass (fast) court players routinely skipped the clay courts at French Open. Likewise, clay court players skipped Wimbledon.

The powers that be have homogenized the surfaces to create rivalries, enable the same players to reach the finals of all 4 Grand Slams, generate interest in calendar Grand Slam, MAKE MORE MONEY. Back in the day, it was almost impossible to win on fast grass and slow clay (save Bjorn Borg). For example, Pete Sampras won 7 Wimbledons and never sniffed a French Open final.

[TheMan]

Players today are playing with way more spacing and rules that makes it much easier to score

Low IQs like Johnny32 can't grasp this concept

[8Ball]

I was at a court on saturday where one guy was carrying and traveling so much it was embarrassing to the game

after like his 10th travel I finally called it, ofc he wanted to say it wasn't a travel. Then we go back down the court and one of our players gets hacked by like 3 different players. I say, "that's gotta be something right... ?"

oh oh oh oh he didn't call nothing though, it's our ball!

I reply, "if you're not gonna give us that, i'm gonna call that travel"

huge stupid waste of time argument ensues and reminds me why I quit playing street ball.

We win, I take my ball start laughing and leave. I said during the game, "it's a shame the NBA let's players get away with what they do because now people out here on the street think that it's fine as well."

Players today don't follow the rules, and get paid 10x what they once did while setting a bad example for others. No rules = God mode

You played a random pickup game somewhere and that's your take on modern players?

[3ba11]

league allows carrying and traveling much more than before, which allows an unprecedented ball-handling ability that looks good to the casual fan but accomplishes little - shot-making is where the real basketball lies and previous eras that lacked spacing strategy were forced to be the best at it (forced to take more contested shots and shoot over or within packed paints) - accordingly, previous eras enjoyed the same advantage on 2-point shot-making that today's era has on 3-point shot-making... if the 3-point line was removed (70's basketball) and all the leagues from all the years were combined, today's players would stand no chance and would be forced to play in a lesser league like the G-league - the G-league would be all current players - great dribblers but weak shot-makers and soft like charmin

[paksat]

You played a random pickup game somewhere and that's your take on modern players?

I wanted to show the impact they're having on normal people. The last sentences are the actual answer, they look better because there is less resistance

[8Ball]

I wanted to show the impact they're having on normal people. The last sentences are the actual answer, they look better because there is less resistance

International olympics has refs call travelling a lot more and NBA players adapted easily.

[paksat]

International olympics has refs call travelling a lot more and NBA players adapted easily.


Ok we'll just pretend that being able to travel and carry doesn't make it easier to play.


Also, losing 15 times since the 2000s started doesn't seem too easy

[Xiao Yao You]

International olympics has refs call travelling a lot more and NBA players adapted easily.

sure been called a lot for traveling since the gather bullshit isn't allowed in FIBA

[mr4speed]

Ok we'll just pretend that being able to travel and carry doesn't make it easier to play.


Also, losing 15 times since the 2000s started doesn't seem too easy

I run laps at a local sports complex on the 2nd floor and can look down and watch coaches teaching young kids today how to cup and cradle and palm and carry the ball. And what is even worse is I see these same kids catching the ball and without a dribble hop stepping sideways or backward to create shooting clearance from their defender. When a player catches the ball 1 of his feet must be his pivot foot = a player cannot just jump without a dribble. I can go on and on about the gather step and travelling violations, but clearly the rules are being ignored to enhance scoring and thus drive up stats on the offensive end. For video proof of this see "the evolution of the rules" by the thinking basketball series. I am afraid this practice has ruined a beautiful game.

[sdot_thadon]

Seems like it because this era grew up watching the last and honing the skills elite guys had from previous eras. There was an unspoken rule that if you did something out of line in previous eras and wasn't the star, you got splinters as a reminder. You have guys now that are rotation players and can do stuff that was reserved for elite players in the past.(albeit not so much currently as role players have evolved into specialty guys, blame the rise of 3 and D) Also the relaxing of rules definitely plays its role as it always has. Mjs era was allowed more freedom with the ball than West and Big Os era was. So in turn quality of play rises or at least gives the appearance that it does.