Jason Kidd vs. Damian Lillard: Who has the better career and peak?

[Im Still Ballin]

Title.

It's an interesting question because they're such different types of point guards. Heliocentric scoring PGs were looked down upon in Kidd's day if I'm not mistaken. Guys like Iverson and Marbury caught flack for playing too much like shooting guards. I believe Nash and Kidd were looked at as more ideal playmaking point guards.

Anyways. Who would you take for career and peak?

[Carbine]

Kidd is really underrated peak wise. He was an amazing team player.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Kidd had the better career because he experienced so much more winning. Better player is a tough question, even though both are point guards it's always been hard to fully appreciate Kidd's game if you just judge the numbers while Lillaird is such a great scorer that you don't want to ever disregard the numbers even though last season everyone scored more points than they would have in Kidd's era but Kidd's not gong to lead those Nets to the finals in Lillaird's western conference. I'll go with Kidd's because on top of his offensive impact you have point guard that could ĝuard Allen Iverson one night and Paul Pierce the next.

[dankok8]

Defense isn't that important for a PG... Eh Kidd is still a way better floor general that it's very close. Lillard also has a spotty playoff portfolio, just so much weak efficiency scoring. I'd probably call it a draw. It's actually tough to decide. I think both guys don't have great offensive impact. Kidd isn't a great enough scorer to pressure a defense and create leverage for teammates and Lillard takes too many tough shots (hello half-court threes...).

Career is definitely Kidd.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Defense isn't that important for a PG completely wrong. Nba history is full of guys like Iverson, Lillaird, Hardaway, KJ, etc. that could take over a game offensively. You need to be able to defend those guys. Defense is important at every position.

[imdaman99]

Kidd by a landslide. I know he won a role player ring but he knew how to run an offense. Lillard is so overrated, dude got voted into top 75 because he hit 2 clutch shots

[ILLsmak]

Kidd by a landslide. I know he won a role player ring but he knew how to run an offense. Lillard is so overrated, dude got voted into top 75 because he hit 2 clutch shots

Yeah. Scoring is cool, but you gotta know how to do what it takes to win. Kidd's teams weren't even that special IMO. A good PG makes everyone better.

I love the line "Defense isn't that important at PG." I would say C and PG are the most important positions to have good defense, especially if your PG can get in the passing lanes. That's a hot hot take, tho. It shows up on youtube. I've heard it too much. haha. People forget about Nash and how everyone shit on him because he'd give up career highs to everyone, even when he was MVP leading great teams. Another proof of defense being important at PG is the fact that a guy like Nate Robinson can be pretty darn good, but he is relegated to a 6th man energy guy because he's too small to play D properly.

Big wings get a lot of love on D cuz they can do a lot, but especially in this era, most wings aren't agile enough to switch onto PGs. Thus, PG D is important. They just gave Marcus Smart DPOY, in this trash no-D era. Back when people could actually press, like J Kidd days, it was even more important.

-Smak

[Im Still Ballin]

Yeah. Scoring is cool, but you gotta know how to do what it takes to win. Kidd's teams weren't even that special IMO. A good PG makes everyone better.

I love the line "Defense isn't that important at PG." I would say C and PG are the most important positions to have good defense, especially if your PG can get in the passing lanes. That's a hot hot take, tho. It shows up on youtube. I've heard it too much. haha. People forget about Nash and how everyone shit on him because he'd give up career highs to everyone, even when he was MVP leading great teams. Another proof of defense being important at PG is the fact that a guy like Nate Robinson can be pretty darn good, but he is relegated to a 6th man energy guy because he's too small to play D properly.

Big wings get a lot of love on D cuz they can do a lot, but especially in this era, most wings aren't agile enough to switch onto PGs. Thus, PG D is important. They just gave Marcus Smart DPOY, in this trash no-D era. Back when people could actually press, like J Kidd days, it was even more important.

-Smak

Great post, as always.

[Phoenix]

Defense isn't that important for a PG... Eh Kidd is still a way better floor general that it's very close. Lillard also has a spotty playoff portfolio, just so much weak efficiency scoring. I'd probably call it a draw. It's actually tough to decide. I think both guys don't have great offensive impact. Kidd isn't a great enough scorer to pressure a defense and create leverage for teammates and Lillard takes too many tough shots (hello half-court threes...).

Career is definitely Kidd.

I've never understand that line of reasoning. You want to cut off the head of the snake if you can. Would you rather a lamp-post like Steve Nash who will let you get anything you want, or a Gary Payton who will harass you for 40 minutes and make it harder to make plays?

[Carbine]

With as many pick and rolls and willingness to just switch, it's very easy to get a Gary Payton type defender off you in this era and instead attack a weaker defender.

[Real Men Wear Green]

With as many pick and rolls and willingness to just switch, it's very easy to get a Gary Payton type defender off you in this era and instead attack a weaker defender. That doesn't reduce the importance of a point guard defender. Do you want to let Lillaird attack your point guard without even needing to force a switch or have a point guard that the Heat want to force to switch onto Jimmy Butler? The heavy switching of today just makes it important that everyone can defend and the weak link gets picked on.

[ILLsmak]

That doesn't reduce the importance of a point guard defender. Do you want to let Lillaird attack your point guard without even needing to force a switch or have a point guard that the Heat want to force to switch onto Jimmy Butler? The heavy switching of today just makes it important that everyone can defend and the weak link gets picked on.

Yea I was watching Kobe D up Steph in 16 and he was right there along side waiting for the pick to be ready to pick him up. haha. As if you couldn't do that? As if you couldn't have a good SG AND PG on defense. Either way, those big wings aren't guarding a PG now. And J Kidd was a big guy who could even push you around in the post a little. Lillard is special, though... he may get his shine once he gets on a new team. He's basically been rotting where he is, but J Kidd is an all time great. I dunno if you can say that for Lillard yet. There are a bunch of dudes who are 'kinda like' him. Recency bias makes people overrated him, prol. I hope he does get a chance to show out deep in the playoffs. He's at the age where his physical prime is ending, but the cool thing about PGs is they can have a cerebral prime.

-Smak

[dankok8]

completely wrong. Nba history is full of guys like Iverson, Lillaird, Hardaway, KJ, etc. that could take over a game offensively. You need to be able to defend those guys. Defense is important at every position.


I've never understand that line of reasoning. You want to cut off the head of the snake if you can. Would you rather a lamp-post like Steve Nash who will let you get anything you want, or a Gary Payton who will harass you for 40 minutes and make it harder to make plays?

Perimeter defense isn't very impactful.

For big men offense = defense in importance but for guards offense >> defense.

Nash is a way more impactful player than Payton in their primes even though the gap on offense is smaller than the gap on defense.

[warriorfan]

Great defending PG’s don’t lead top ranked defensive teams. It just doesn’t happen. Of course having a great defending pg is nice but it isn’t a crucial part of a championship team. Athletic defensive big men and wings have a greater impact.

[hold this L]

Kidd by a significant margin. People don't realize how garbage tier Dame is whenever he met a championship level team in the postseason.

[k0kakw0rld]

Jason Kidd even though I love me some Dame.
Kidd is my favorite player ever.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Perimeter defense isn't very impactful.

For big men offense = defense in importance but for guards offense >> defense.

Nash is a way more impactful player than Payton in their primes even though the gap on offense is smaller than the gap on defense.
So if a guard gets a steal or challenges a shot and it misses that doesn't matter but if a forward defends the last shot and it misses it does? That just doesn't make sense. Payton led some great Sonics teams, he didn't get an MVP like Nash but he did make the Finals unlike Nash.

[HoopsNY]

Perimeter defense isn't very impactful.

For big men offense = defense in importance but for guards offense >> defense.

Nash is a way more impactful player than Payton in their primes even though the gap on offense is smaller than the gap on defense.

Payton '97-'00 On-Off: +10.6
Nash '05-'12 On-Off: +10.8

We only have the On-Off numbers from '97 onward, but Payton from '97-'00 and Nash from '05-'12 were about even. It would be interesting to see Payton's On-Off numbers from '93-'00 as a whole and I suspect they'd be a bit higher than Nash's tenure with PHO.

I'm not sure how much more impactful Nash was, really, when Payton had actually went to the finals and led the Sonics to multiple 60+ win seasons while playing in an equally tough conference.

[Im Still Ballin]

We have the on-off numbers from 1994, 1995, and 1996:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12wBquVtyX4RKXDFtFMLt2QvqfICO_6SCKwm3s_dkb-Q/edit#gid=0

Payton doesn't look great.

1994: -6.2
1995: +1.5
1996: +5.4

We've also got all the 76ers years from 1977 to 1996:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZxRM9p2dFil5w6s21VEB4HnQZJymEY8_2vej-jREuUo/edit#gid=1591305361

[ArbitraryWater]

completely wrong. Nba history is full of guys like Iverson, Lillaird, Hardaway, KJ, etc. that could take over a game offensively. You need to be able to defend those guys. Defense is important at every position.

You just made his point.

Its been historically harder to defend at that spot anyway. You just dont have the same impact as a bigger guy or someone closer to the basket.

[ArbitraryWater]

So if a guard gets a steal or challenges a shot and it misses that doesn't matter but if a forward defends the last shot and it misses it does? That just doesn't make sense. Payton led some great Sonics teams, he didn't get an MVP like Nash but he did make the Finals unlike Nash.

You are so crazy dense lol

[Real Men Wear Green]

You just made his point.

Its been historically harder to defend at that spot anyway. You just dont have the same impact as a bigger guy or someone closer to the basket.

There have been a few posters in this thread pointing out that the defense of point guards matters. Yet you target me with your worthless reply. A stop is a stop. You have to prevent the point guard from scoring if you can. You think that the great scoring guards I listed never had games and series where the opponent's guards defended them well and that was a major factor in them winning? And this doesn't matter? NBA history is full of great scoring bigs as well. Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, Wilt, etc. we're great scorers so does that mean center defense doesn't matter? That's some idiot logic.

[tpols]

Kidd was better. He was playing like an MVP in the early 2000s... took a Nets team that won 20 games or whatever and led them to b2b Finals. Dame is nice but he's more top 15ish player while Kidd was closer to top 5 back then.

[tpols]

Defense isn't that important for a PG... Eh Kidd is still a way better floor general that it's very close. Lillard also has a spotty playoff portfolio, just so much weak efficiency scoring. I'd probably call it a draw. It's actually tough to decide. I think both guys don't have great offensive impact. Kidd isn't a great enough scorer to pressure a defense and create leverage for teammates and Lillard takes too many tough shots (hello half-court threes...).

Career is definitely Kidd.

That's normally true in terms of big men having more defensive impact but Kidd was a special case. He had the Nets ranked #1 in defense in 2002 and 2003. They were ranked 23rd in 2001 before he got there. So kidd literally took a trash defense and made them the best D in the whole NBA. That's absurd defensive impact.

[tpols]

Great defending PG’s don’t lead top ranked defensive teams. It just doesn’t happen. Of course having a great defending pg is nice but it isn’t a crucial part of a championship team. Athletic defensive big men and wings have a greater impact.

Kidd nets were the top ranked defense. And it certainly wasn't because of their centers unless you think Jason Collins was anchoring it lol. Kmart and Kidd were the only ones locking shit down.

[k0kakw0rld]

Kidd by a landslide. I know he won a role player ring but he knew how to run an offense. Lillard is so overrated, dude got voted into top 75 because he hit 2 clutch shots

Stfu idiot. How many players in the top 75 are capable of scoring 71 points in a game?

[iamgine]

I'd give it to Lillard by a landslide in the regular season.

But Kidd was better in the playoff.

[Im Still Ballin]

I'd be cautious to throw out absolutes like PG defense doesn't matter. There are general rules, but there are players who break them.

Tpols' point about the Nets defense getting dramatically better is interesting. It's not even just about the position the defender plays: great communication and instruction can help the whole team.

The scheme matters too. The Big Three Miami Heat leveraged their athleticism on the perimeter/wings to run a high-energy, rotation-heavy, frenzied defensive attack. They were elite and didn't have much if any quality rim protection.

[Druckenmiller]

Guess it depends on what you want. Different players.

To me Lillard is similar to Iverson. He can carry an otherwise average squad offensively and help his team win by putting the ball in the bucket.

Kidd changed the culture of teams by playing hard nosed, tough basketball, ball movement and unselfish play.

I’d rather have Kidd in his prime. Lillard could carry a team offensively. Kidd made the people around him better and played tougher basketball.

[Kblaze8855]

Great defending PG’s don’t lead top ranked defensive teams. It just doesn’t happen. Of course having a great defending pg is nice but it isn’t a crucial part of a championship team. Athletic defensive big men and wings have a greater impact.


I’m not sure Kidd didn’t lead the top defense himself somewhere along the way. If it wasn’t the top, it was damn near there. When I started reading your post, I thought that’s where you were going with it.

It had to be the Nets, Pistons, Spurs, and pacers in the top spots those years.