How good does someone have to be before it stops being mostly about skill set?

[Kblaze8855]

If you are employed to evaluate a player and have to report back you might watch him play and talk about shooting off the dribble and spotting up, defensive versatility, how comfortable he is finding others off the dribble, can he finish, does he have both hands both driving and finishing, if he moves without the ball or does he zone out on plays not for him, does he box out for both himself and others to recover the ball?

Does he play with real effort or is he one of those 3 to 3 types who floats in the middle of the floor but won’t go 94 back and forth? Does he keep getting beat on the same defensive looks without changing his approach? Does he have beat the press handles and decision making or are his handles for show one on one? Are his hands big? How is his footwork? Is he a charge drawer or a shot blocker when challenged with a drive? Does he take constructive criticism? How strong does he seem? How fast? Does he play above the rim? Does he make his free throws in game or just in practice?

There’s a lot. A lot happens on a court and if you wanna know how good someone is a lot of things factor in.

But if I ask you who is the better player is….Vince Carter or DeMar DeRozan? I’m gonna get some playoff stats, narratives, accolades, and so on.

So I’m asking…at what level of “goodness” does your evaluation change to abstract “greatness”?

Once they’re all stars maybe?

If I ask about Corliss Williamson you aren’t talking to me about whatever playoff success he had on the Pistons or his advanced metrics. If you remember him you’re talking about ball.

How about Lamar Odom? Never an all star but the legacy shit would creep in.

Kyle Korver? You care about anything but skill set evaluating Kyle Korver? He was an all star but…does he have a “legacy”?

Do we just assume that once a player reaches a certain level of success and accolades, he must check enough boxes that we don’t have to evaluate his entire game and instead go into the abstract, and sometimes circumstantial evidence to split up players who are really not that different? Is that the only way to make it out to be a huge difference between people all in the 98th percentile even among nba players?

Skills don’t suggest enough difference at some level so we have to go past straight up basketball playing ability? If so, at what level?

Korver might actually be a good test subject.

In 10 years some kid sees him on ESPN calling a game and asks you how good Kyle Korver was. Are you mentioning anything at all beyond basketball skills?

[Im Still Ballin]

Interesting point. All-Star status probably seems right. Or at least in contention to make the team.

It makes me think about three somewhat similar players who are respected differently: Marbury, Rose, and Morant. Purely on basketball ability, I'm not sure there's much between them. Derrick and Ja are considered winning players while Stephon isn't. All three are headcases in some fashion, but for Marbury, it's more about on-court stuff. Or rather, how it influenced his team's play. The "intangibles."

But how much of the perceived differences simply come down to circumstance? The era played in; the teams played on. Marbury never had the luxury of being on deep, defensive-oriented, rebounding teams like Ja and Derrick. Both Chicago and Memphis played very well without their All-Star point guards.

The average 2pt% was like 46.5% from 1999-2005; it had already risen to 48.5% from 2009-2012. And now it's nearly 55%. Even Marbury's heliocentric ball-hogging would be looked on more favorably now.

All in all, I just don't see much between the three regarding ability. Small differences in play style, skill, and athletic package. Or maybe the intangibles make that much of a difference. I don't know. I can only go off the full games I've watched and the old articles I've read.

Even so, I feel like circumstance makes up most of the difference, if not nearly all. Slot Stephon into a non-handchecking league with four shooters or on a team built to win through defense, rebounding, and depth. Don't see why he couldn't be a "winner" or even MVP candidate in the right circumstance.

Regarding Korver: I'd probably mention the All-Star appearance. Just to validate his skill set and his impact in the right context.

[Kblaze8855]

All three of those guys are well above the threshold to have an actual basketball comparison. It’s a narrative discussion on their level.

Korver might really be about as high as you can go and just talk ball.

Jeff Teague.

Anyone feel a need for accolades to enter a Jeff Teague conversation?

Al Horford?

The entire 2015 Hawks now that I think about it.

[FultzNationRISE]

They dont have to be as good as Lebron, but they should at least be as good as MJ.

[Kblaze8855]

They dont have to be as good as Lebron, but they should at least be as good as MJ.


The legendary “It’s the only argument I need Shawn!” really is a good “real world” example of how this works.

It wouldn’t be the only argument if the question were Toni Kukoc or Mo Williams.

You would be expected to counter Shawn’s arguments by talking about aspects of a basketball game.

[FultzNationRISE]

The legendary “It’s the only argument I need Shawn!” really is a good “real world” example of how this works.

It wouldn’t be the only argument if the question were Toni Kukoc or Mo Williams.

You would be expected to counter Shawn’s arguments by talking about aspects of a basketball game.


My first criterion for any player, any role, is are they engaged, competitive, and hungry. If theyre not, I dont want them regardless of anything else. If James Harden, Ben Simmons, and Obi Toppin fall to me in a draft, I absolutely will take Toppin. No doubt about it. I simply do not want the other two players on my team for any cost. It’s not that I dont want to overpay them or that I prioritize them less than other stars, I do not want them, period.

Most guys who have some heart will probably also have some brains. They dont have to be geniuses but in the occasional instance where a guy has heart but NO brains on the court (Westbrook) I rule him out as well. So I need heart first, then brains, then we can talk fundamentals and how good they are going left, how crisp is their bounce pass etc

[Im Still Ballin]

My first criterion for any player, any role, is are they engaged, competitive, and hungry. If theyre not, I dont want them regardless of anything else. If James Harden, Ben Simmons, and Obi Toppin fall to me in a draft, I absolutely will take Toppin. No doubt about it. I simply do not want the other two players on my team for any cost. It’s not that I dont want to overpay them or that I prioritize them less than other stars, I do not want them, period.

Most guys who have some heart will probably also have some brains. They dont have to be geniuses but in the occasional instance where a guy has heart but NO brains on the court (Westbrook) I rule him out as well. So I need heart first, then brains, then we can talk fundamentals and how good they are going left, how crisp is their bounce pass etc

Circumstance matters, bro. Kawhi was hungry and competitive when he was young and healthy. Would you draft him?

[Kblaze8855]

You better be the owner and the GM like Jerry Jones because if I’m on staff when you take Toppin and the next pick turns out to be James Harden, I’m already throwing subtle jabs when the owners around about how you should have taken Harden, and given him unchecked control to run up his stats while we tank again, then trade him to the team that has Toppin for its best player with Toppin and a draft pick as sweeteners.

[Overdrive]

My first criterion for any player, any role, is are they engaged, competitive, and hungry. If theyre not, I dont want them regardless of anything else. If James Harden, Ben Simmons, and Obi Toppin fall to me in a draft, I absolutely will take Toppin. No doubt about it. I simply do not want the other two players on my team for any cost. It’s not that I dont want to overpay them or that I prioritize them less than other stars, I do not want them, period.

Most guys who have some heart will probably also have some brains. They dont have to be geniuses but in the occasional instance where a guy has heart but NO brains on the court (Westbrook) I rule him out as well. So I need heart first, then brains, then we can talk fundamentals and how good they are going left, how crisp is their bounce pass etc

I think alot of fundamental skills are a byproduct of brains.

[FultzNationRISE]

You better be the owner and the GM like Jerry Jones because if I’m on staff when you take Toppin and the next pick turns out to be James Harden, I’m already throwing subtle jabs when the owners around about how you should have taken Harden, and given him unchecked control to run up his stats while we tank again, then trade him to the team that has Toppin for its best player with Toppin and a draft pick as sweeteners.

Well it’s like they say, if ya want something done right ya gotta do it yourself. Youre damn right if I owned an NBA team Id be the GM :lol

[Xiao Yao You]

You better be the owner and the GM like Jerry Jones because if I’m on staff when you take Toppin and the next pick turns out to be James Harden, I’m already throwing subtle jabs when the owners around about how you should have taken Harden, and given him unchecked control to run up his stats while we tank again, then trade him to the team that has Toppin for its best player with Toppin and a draft pick as sweeteners.

Utah's owner is the main reason I still have to put up with The Bum. **** him and his oversized crooked hat wearing shit!

[FultzNationRISE]

But to your point about running up a players trade value that I dont actually want, thats perfectly fair. When I say “I dont want them period” I mean in theory as an expected long term contributor. Of course if theres some short term gamesmanship I might sign a Kyrie Irving and flip him later to teams who value him more than I do.

[Xiao Yao You]

But to your point about running up a players trade value that I dont actually want, thats perfectly fair. When I say “I dont want them period” I mean in theory as an expected long term contributor. Of course if theres some short term gamesmanship I might sign a Kyrie Irving and flip him later to teams who value him more than I do.

which I got to believe is the reason The Bum is still on the Jazz. Can't believe Ainge really thinks he's good with his track record