Most 90's sidekicks led team to Finals or WCF - when did Pippen match this caliber?

[3ba11]

.

* Stockton led Jazz to 92' Finals with 21/11 in WCF and series walk-off in Barkley's face

* KJ led Suns to 90' WCF after dominating Magic' 1-seeded Lakers in 2nd Round

* KJ dominated Hakeem in 2 different 7-game series, while being 1st option over Barkley

* Kemp nearly won FMVP from MJ in the 96' Finals, while Payton locked up MJ

* Dumars won FMVP and led Pistons to the Finals

* Terry Porter carried Blazers to 92' Finals with 53% on threes (6 attempts) and 26/4/8 in WCF

* Worthy carried Lakers to 87' Finals with 31 on 62% in WCF (led team in scoring for 87-91' PO)

* Prime X-Man led the Sonics to the 87' WCF as 1st option and averaged 25/9/4 against the Lakers in WCF.. Then the old version of X-Man dominated Pip in the 92' ECSF


The Bulls' cast has always been overrated because casual fans assume that winning equals a stacked cast.

Meanwhile, chemistry or brand of ball are ignored even though these things are developed over many years and require a 1st option like Jokic, Jordan or Curry - these guys have the scoring diversity to allow elite strategy and teammate fits, which yields goat winning with less talent..

This lesser talent includes secondary producers at sidekick (non-franchise players) such as Pippen and also Jamal Murray or Klay.

In Pippen's case, we see that among 90's sidekicks, he had the lowest peak capability, efficiency, spacing, clutch and even passing,. The low peak capability of Pippen (not on scouting report according to Shaq), forced MJ to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load in playoffs AND Finals of title runs).. Meanwhile, Horace was a 1-time all-star compared to the all-nba 3rd options or multiple-time all-stars on other teams (mashburn, mason, schrempf, majerle, nance, aguirre, laimbeer).. TLDR: the bulls' cast was thin, yet they achieved 2 three-peats and goat dynasty because they had the goat

[Carbine]

Pippen outplayed the other teams best player in a few series, outplayed the other teams #2 option a considerably large percentage of the time.

What more do you want from a #2 option?

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen outplayed the other teams best player in a few series, outplayed the other teams #2 option a considerably large percentage of the time.

What more do you want from a #2 option?
Yep, outplayed everyone OP listed h2h with the exception of Kemp.

In fact this is how he did compared to the opposing teams best player/first option

1991 FR
Pippen: 20/9/5/3 55%TS
Ewing: 17/10/2 47%TS

1991 ECSF
Pippen: 23/9/6 61%TS
Barkley: 26/10/5 67%TS

1991 ECF
Pippen: 22/8/5/3/2 56%TS
Isiah: 17/5/6 49%TS

1991 Finals
Pippen: 21/9/7 53%TS
Magic: 19/8/12 61%TS

1992 ECF
Pippen: 20/11/6/2/2 54%TS
Price: 19/2/5 61%TS

1992 Finals
Pippen: 21/8/8 56%TS
Drexler: 25/8/5 52%TS

1993 ECSF
Pippen: 18/6/5/3 51%TS
Price: 14/2/6 64%TS

1993 ECF
Pippen: 23/7/4 57%TS
Ewing: 26/11/3 57%TS

1996 FR
Pippen: 20/11/7/3/2 64%TS
Mourning: 18/6/1 57%TS

1997 FR
Pippen: 17/9/3 50%TS
Webber: 16/8/3 70%TS

1997 ECSF
Pippen: 22/6/6 52%TS
Blaylock: 21/7/6 58%TS

1997 ECF
Pippen: 17/5/3 53%TS
Hardaway: 17/5/6 49%TS

1997 Finals
Pippen: 20/8/4/2/2 54%TS
Malone: 24/11/4 49%TS

1998 FR
Pippen: 18/7/6 53%TS
Van Horn: 13/3/0 53%TS

1998 ECSF
Pippen: 18/7/5/3 54%TS
Rice: 23/5/2 52%TS

1998 ECF
Pippen: 17/8/5 46%TS
Reggie: 17/2/2 59%TS

[3ba11]

What more do you want from a #2 option?





I want Pippen to lead the Bulls to the Finals, ECF or win FMVP just like other 90's sidekicks did as the OP shows - 90's sidekicks achieved dominant stats and led their teams to the Finals or conference finals, or even won FMVP (dumars).

Otoh, Pippen was just a supplementary player that couldn't achieve more than 20 system points of historically-inefficient lane-clogging, so he was 0/6 in FMVP and forced MJ to carry the scoring load in literally every series they ever played.. So according to the stats (carrying the scoring load), Jordan faced "all eyes on me" defensive coverage more than any other player in history and that's a direct result of Pippen's ineptitude on offense (i.e. historically-bad efficiency, lane-clogging and low peak capability/not on scouting report/no game-planning required - all eyes on Jordan).






Pippen outplayed the other teams best player in a few series, outplayed the other teams #2 option a considerably large percentage of the time.





Most of the opposing 2nd options that you're citing were guards that simply underperformed against MJ such as Dumars, Starks, Hornacek, Price, Porter, KJ, Steve Smith, Tim Hardaway, Penny and more - infact, most of these guys such as Hardaway, KJ, Dumars, Penny, Porter or Price played better than Pippen ever did but simply underperformed against MJ and therefore were "outscored" by Pippen or had lower gamescore...

In addition to facing MJ, most 2nd options had 3rd and 4th scorers to share the load with, while the Bulls had no 3rd or 4th scorer - despite this built-in advantage, Pippen never had meaningful margins over anyone, while his scoring was system points and transition (no game-planning required) - this includes worst-ever efficiency and lane-clogging - Pippen afforded opposing coaches the rare luxury of sagging off into the paint just like Zion or Giannis are defended..

No one cared about Pippen's 15-20 system points and bricklaying.. Otoh, guys like Hornacek, Smits, or X-Man were actually good iso players and shooters, so they required more game-planning and hit momentum shots that mattered - the Bulls relied on Paxson, Kerr, Kukoc or Jordan for these shots, while Pippen was unavailable outside of transition or low-leverage times of the game .

Btw, Pippen was destroyed by Dominique, X-Man, Majerle, Juwan Howard, Larry Johnson, Penny, Smits, Stockton, Schrempf and many more SF's or 2nd options because Pippen was just an athlete, transition player and system player - he wasn't a good scorer and was "unguarded", just like his book title.

[3ba11]

numbers that confirm how bad pippen was (worst-ever efficiency.. 80% of series OMITTED.... often outscored anyway... numerous first round series included... no material margin despite facing casts with more scorers that must share load with each other)


every 2nd option in the 90's did much better than that - see the OP

(dumars won fmvp.. kemp almost did.. porter and stockton carried teams to the finals.. kj dominated hakeem and magic.. aka everyone could achieve elite stats, dominate and therefore required gameplanning - they weren't system players and low peak capability like pippen, aka no game-planning required).

[And1AllDay]

Yep, outplayed everyone OP listed h2h with the exception of Kemp.

In fact this is how he did compared to the opposing teams best player/first option

1991 FR
Pippen: 20/9/5/3 55%TS
Ewing: 17/10/2 47%TS

1991 ECSF
Pippen: 23/9/6 61%TS
Barkley: 26/10/5 67%TS

1991 ECF
Pippen: 22/8/5/3/2 56%TS
Isiah: 17/5/6 49%TS

1991 Finals
Pippen: 21/9/7 53%TS
Magic: 19/8/12 61%TS

1992 ECF
Pippen: 20/11/6/2/2 54%TS
Price: 19/2/5 61%TS

1992 Finals
Pippen: 21/8/8 56%TS
Drexler: 25/8/5 52%TS

1993 ECSF
Pippen: 18/6/5/3 51%TS
Price: 14/2/6 64%TS

1993 ECF
Pippen: 23/7/4 57%TS
Ewing: 26/11/3 57%TS

1996 FR
Pippen: 20/11/7/3/2 64%TS
Mourning: 18/6/1 57%TS

1997 FR
Pippen: 17/9/3 50%TS
Webber: 16/8/3 70%TS

1997 ECSF
Pippen: 22/6/6 52%TS
Blaylock: 21/7/6 58%TS

1997 ECF
Pippen: 17/5/3 53%TS
Hardaway: 17/5/6 49%TS

1997 Finals
Pippen: 20/8/4/2/2 54%TS
Malone: 24/11/4 49%TS

1998 FR
Pippen: 18/7/6 53%TS
Van Horn: 13/3/0 53%TS

1998 ECSF
Pippen: 18/7/5/3 54%TS
Rice: 23/5/2 52%TS

1998 ECF
Pippen: 17/8/5 46%TS
Reggie: 17/2/2 59%TS


3baLĹLLLLLLLLL owned again :oldlol:

[Axe]

1-9

[3ba11]

Yep, outplayed everyone OP listed h2h with the exception of Kemp.

In fact this is how he did compared to the opposing teams best player/first option

1991 FR
Pippen: 20/9/5/3 55%TS
Ewing: 17/10/2 47%TS

1991 ECSF
Pippen: 23/9/6 61%TS
Barkley: 26/10/5 67%TS

1991 ECF
Pippen: 22/8/5/3/2 56%TS
Isiah: 17/5/6 49%TS

1991 Finals
Pippen: 21/9/7 53%TS
Magic: 19/8/12 61%TS

1992 ECF
Pippen: 20/11/6/2/2 54%TS
Price: 19/2/5 61%TS

1992 Finals
Pippen: 21/8/8 56%TS
Drexler: 25/8/5 52%TS

1993 ECSF
Pippen: 18/6/5/3 51%TS
Price: 14/2/6 64%TS

1993 ECF
Pippen: 23/7/4 57%TS
Ewing: 26/11/3 57%TS

1996 FR
Pippen: 20/11/7/3/2 64%TS
Mourning: 18/6/1 57%TS

1997 FR
Pippen: 16/9/3 50%TS
Howard: 18/8/3 70%TS

1997 ECSF
Pippen: 22/6/6 52%TS
Blaylock: 21/7/6 58%TS

1997 ECF
Pippen: 17/5/3 53%TS
Hardaway: 17/5/6 49%TS

1997 Finals
Pippen: 20/8/4/2/2 54%TS
Malone: 24/11/4 49%TS

1998 FR
Pippen: 18/7/6 53%TS
Van Horn: 13/3/0 53%TS

1998 ECSF
Pippen: 18/7/5/3 54%TS
Rice: 23/5/2 52%TS

1998 ECF
Pippen: 17/8/5 46%TS
Reggie: 17/2/2 59%TS


your numbers show that outside of the first round, Pippen was demolished by opposing frontcourt players like Barkley, Malone, Rice, Schrempf, Kemp, X-Man, Dominique, Willis, Juwan Howard, Ewing, Webber, Smits and more.. Even 4th options like Dumas went off and couldn't miss against Pippen.. So the only guys that Pippen barely outscored with worst-ever efficiency were guards that MJ was locking down and wearing down with his onslaught, which resulted in massive underperformance by nearly every guard that faced MJ.

Pippen had the worst shooting splits in 3-pointer history for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG - he did this twice in 96', 98' and nearly 93'.. Accordingly, he's an all-time lane-clogger that today's ball-dominators couldn't win with because he afforded opposing coaches the rare luxury of sagging off like he's Ben Simmons (who is actually more talented and a better basketball player with the same weak mentality as Pippen - except no MJ to carry him.. The numbers actually show that Pippen was a Larry Nance-caliber player - that's his closest value comparison).

[Lebron23]

Jordan never won a playoffs series without Pippen

[iamgine]

I stand in awe of OP's ability to ruffle feathers. :lol

More threads like this please.

[3ba11]

I stand in awe of OP's ability to ruffle feathers. :lol

More threads like this please.


The thread title speaks for itself - every notable 90's sidekick was infact a "1b" that could take over, get elite stats, and lead their team to the conference finals, Finals or FMVP

ONLY PIPPEN lacked this ability to dominate and get elite stats - he's the only sidekick that was just an athlete or transition player, aka completely unavailable in high-leverage minutes and had low peak capability (no game-planning required according to shaq)

[Axe]

No pip?

[3ba11]

No pip?


Bron needed 2 pips that were actually franchise players and capable of elite production, or he needed David Robinson to lead the league in playoff scoring and dominate Joker

Obviously, Pippen is nothing compared to this and never dominated anyone in his 20 year career