Pippen's defense was overrated - he couldn't contain opposing SF's

[3ba11]

.


92' X-Man'............. 19 on 50%
92' Pippen............. 16 on 40%

93' Dominique....... 30 on 44%
93' Pippen............. 15 on 33%

95' Johnson........... 21 on 48%
95' Pippen............. 16 on 42%

96' Penny.............. 26 on 47% (H2H matchup)
96' Pippen............. 19 on 45%

96' Schrempf......... 16 on 50%
96' Pippen............. 16 on 34%

96' Kemp............... 23 on 50%
96' Pippen'............. 16 on 40%

97' Howard............. 19 on 46%
97' Pippen.............. 17 on 39%

99' Rice.................. 18 on 55%
99' Pippen'.............. 18 on 32%

91' Worthy.............. 19 on 47% (injured)
91' Pippen.............. 20 on 50%


The only guys that Pippen barely outscored (with worst-ever efficiency and no scoring in high-leverage minutes) were guards that were underperforming against MJ

Btw, Pippen didn't know how to play defense from 88-90', so he followed MJ's lead - MJ got more DPOY votes every year except 96' and 97', which includes #2 in 1993 (pippen didn't qualify for a ranking that year)

Btw, the Bulls had the #1 defense without Pippen in 98' before he returned from injury.. So the Bulls' defense actually got better without their best defenders such as Pippen in 98', MJ in 94', or Horace in 95' - the Bulls defense improved each time - this proves that team defense is more about effort and chemistry than great individual defenders.. The Bulls obviously had long-standing chemistry and that was the key to the defense improving without their best defenders.. Also, see the 23' Nuggets lock down the Heat in the Finals without any great defenders - this is another great example that great team defense is more about effort/chemistry than great individual defenders.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Psycopath scours a 15 year career and can only find 9 opponents, some of whom were not even small forwards. And what does Pippen scoring stats have to do with how well he defended them?

[JohnMax]

I don't even believe this clown is a Jordan fan. He just doesn't want a second Black athlete to achieve GOAT status. When that second Black athlete does achieve GOAT status, he'll pretend to be their biggest fan in order to hate on the third Black athlete going for GOAT status.

[3ba11]

Psycopath scours a 15 year career and can only find 9 opponents, some of whom were not even small forwards. And what does Pippen scoring stats have to do with how well he defended them?


Notice how no one shot under 45% except Dominique, who was doubling pip's scoring - opposing SF's couldn't miss against Pippen like 4th option Richard Dumas, who averaged 16 on 57%, or Kersey got above his normal numbers with 15/8/3 on 48%... So everyone got theirs on Pippen..I remember when teenage Kobe was LAUGHING at Pippen's defense.. pip never locked anyone down as the primary defender

[ShawkFactory]

You’re not going to convince anyone that Pippen wasn’t a great defensive player. Although at this point I don’t honestly think that that’s your goal

[3ba11]

You’re not going to convince anyone that Pippen wasn’t a great defensive player. Although at this point I don’t honestly think that that’s your goal



Pippen can be a great defender and still overrated as a defender... :confusedshrug:

Larry Nance had greater defensive impact and locked guys down better - he's the closest comparison to Pippen based on numbers and long athleticism - that's Pippen's caliber - mostly an athlete.. if Nance had 6 chips, he'd be top 25 all-time.. it's called winning spotlight inflation

[Axe]

I don't even believe this clown is a Jordan fan. He just doesn't want a second Black athlete to achieve GOAT status. When that second Black athlete does achieve GOAT status, he'll pretend to be their biggest fan in order to hate on the third Black athlete going for GOAT status.
He's actually a kobe fan.

[tpols]

Psycopath scours a 15 year career and can only find 9 opponents, some of whom were not even small forwards. And what does Pippen scoring stats have to do with how well he defended them?

Most of those opponents came in years the Bulls won titles. He didn't even use any 80s or 00s stats which would make it look a lot worse.

Most people don't know a guy like the X-man signifigantly out played prime Pippen. It seems the recurring factor in Chicago's success was MJ drastically outplaying everybody on the court, every single time.

[ShawkFactory]

Most of those opponents came in years the Bulls won titles. He didn't even use any 80s or 00s stats which would make it look a lot worse.

Most people don't know a guy like the X-man signifigantly out played prime Pippen. It seems the recurring factor in Chicago's success was MJ drastically outplaying everybody on the court, every single time.

3ball (and now you I guess) bring this X-man thing up all the time :lol

It’s funny because the assumption is that by being slightly outplayed offensively (without context of that mind you; only scoring and percentages are mentioned) that means something. People have numbers in a 6 game series that are better than people that they are inferior to sometimes.

Do we need to harp on how Hakeem was “outplayed” by Otis Thorpe in 90?

Seriously though. If we had a serious Hakeem hater on here making those arguments would you find them legitimate?

[Real Men Wear Green]

Most of those opponents came in years the Bulls won titles. He didn't even use any 80s or 00s stats which would make it look a lot worse.

Most people don't know a guy like the X-man signifigantly out played prime Pippen. It seems the recurring factor in Chicago's success was MJ drastically outplaying everybody on the court, every single time.

It would only look worse to someone that doesn't understand how defense works. This guy went through Pippen's career with a fine tooth comb looking for examples of him getting torched by small forwards.. this search produced a list of 9 players, some of whom weren't even small forwards. I will cherry pick the worst name on the list and point out he used Shawn Kemp as an example. Anyone that saw the Bulls Sonics series knows that Rodman was the primary defender on Kemp and that Kemp played his whole career at PF and some center. This guy is completely full of shit. If you actually saw Pippen play you wouldn't be trying to defend this crap. Because even if everything else is right (and it isn't)...9 players playing maybe a little better than normal against you when you have a 15 year career as a guy that took on the toughest assignments is most definitely nothing to be ashamed of

[Carbine]

This is an incredibly illogical way to look at individual defense.

Just like when Kobe "dropped 50" against MJ but very few were actually with him as the primary defender.

You have to literally watch every game and chart this type of thing to get a real number on points scored against Pippen.

[Xiao Yao You]

This is an incredibly illogical way to look at individual defense.

Just like when Kobe "dropped 50" against MJ but very few were actually with him as the primary defender.

You have to literally watch every game and chart this type of thing to get a real number on points scored against Pippen.

Simmons had 42 on Gobert on 3-7 from the field against him! :lol

[Reggie43]

kind of overrated especially against quicker guys but still a goat level perimeter/team defender with one of the highest defensive iq in history

[Full Court]

.


92' X-Man'............. 19 on 50%
92' Pippen............. 16 on 40%

93' Dominique....... 30 on 44%
93' Pippen............. 15 on 33%

95' Johnson........... 21 on 48%
95' Pippen............. 16 on 42%

96' Penny.............. 26 on 47% (H2H matchup)
96' Pippen............. 19 on 45%

96' Schrempf......... 16 on 50%
96' Pippen............. 16 on 34%

96' Kemp............... 23 on 50%
96' Pippen'............. 16 on 40%

97' Howard............. 19 on 46%
97' Pippen.............. 17 on 39%

99' Rice.................. 18 on 55%
99' Pippen'.............. 18 on 32%

91' Worthy.............. 19 on 47% (injured)
91' Pippen.............. 20 on 50%


The only guys that Pippen barely outscored (with worst-ever efficiency and no scoring in high-leverage minutes) were guards that were underperforming against MJ

Btw, Pippen didn't know how to play defense from 88-90', so he followed MJ's lead - MJ got more DPOY votes every year except 96' and 97', which includes #2 in 1993 (pippen didn't qualify for a ranking that year)

Btw, the Bulls had the #1 defense without Pippen in 98' before he returned from injury.. So the Bulls' defense actually got better without their best defenders such as Pippen in 98', MJ in 94', or Horace in 95' - the Bulls defense improved each time - this proves that team defense is more about effort and chemistry than great individual defenders.. The Bulls obviously had long-standing chemistry and that was the key to the defense improving without their best defenders.. Also, see the 23' Nuggets lock down the Heat in the Finals without any great defenders - this is another great example that great team defense is more about effort/chemistry than great individual defenders.

Some of those guys were offensive juggernauts and the primary scorers on their team. You can't blame Pippen's defense for them outscoring him, when Pippen was the Bulls' second option for scoring.

[3ba11]

Some of those guys were offensive juggernauts and the primary scorers on their team. You can't blame Pippen's defense for them outscoring him, when Pippen was the Bulls' second option for scoring.


Dominique was the only 1st option on the list and some of those guys were 3rd options like Rice or Schrempf, while X-Man was actually a 4th or 5th option during those years.

So your argument doesn't really work.. Maybe Kemp was a 1st option too but he alternated as 1a or 1b with Payton, while Pip was destroyed by their 3rd option anyway (Schrempf).

And the main point is that Dominique dropped 30 ppg on a so-called all-time defender - I thought Pippen could lock guys down? Why does Dominique wear out Pippen by so much that Pippen has nothing left to score himself??? (15 on 33%)..

It was such a massive gap and it showed that Dominique was a true 1st option - he could build a real 50-win team from scratch that could win 50 every year, while Pippen needed to inherit a 3-peat dynasty to have a one-off season - he couldn't build a real 50-win team from scratch like literally any other player in the top 50 all-time.. This demonstrates that he was simply inflated by the winning spotlight and wasn't a true 1st option like everyone else that is ranked near him - 2nd options can't be top 50 - only the winning spotlight can do it, as we see clearly with Pippen..

Not only did Pippen fall short of 1st option-caliber (can't build a real 50-win team from scratch), but he wasn't 2nd option-caliber either - he was only 2nd option alongside the goat scorer and no other scorers to compete with, otherwise he was 3rd through 6th option on normal teams that have several scoring options.

Ultimately, there's a trend here - Pippen isn't capable of going toe-to-toe with the best players like Dominique, Barkley, Malone, etc - he wasn't anywhere near their caliber.. Imagine what Bird would do to poor Pippen given that Dominique or Penny destroyed him so badly, while secondary-producing forwards like X-Man, Schrempf and many more destroyed him too.. He was ROUTINELY OUTPLAYED by opposing forwards.. Otoh, we see other sidekicks like Kyrie, AD or Wade outplay league MVP's like Curry, Jokic or Dirk - night and day - those guys were real 1st options that could go toe-to-toe with the best players and carry teams to titles.. Many sidekicks like Kareem, Curry, Kobe, Dumars, Tony Parker, Iggy and many more were FMVP or 1st options in big series, while Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and never a 1st option-caliber scorer.

[ShawkFactory]

Some of those guys were offensive juggernauts and the primary scorers on their team. You can't blame Pippen's defense for them outscoring him, when Pippen was the Bulls' second option for scoring.

For once I agree with you. Dominque scored a lot inefficiently…cool. Some people do that and nothing else.

There’s no bulls fan in the world at the time who would have traded him straight up for Pippen on that team. Literally no one.

Once Dominique isn’t the first option then what? He gonna give you defense and move the ball around? Good luck.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

'91 Pippen: 107 offensive rating
'91 Worthy: 100 offensive rating

'92 Pippen - 106 offensive rating
'92 McDaniel - 106 offensive rating

'93 Nique - 109 offensive rating
'93 Pippen - 100 offensive rating

'95 Pippen - 122 offensive rating
'95 Johnson - 119 offensive rating

'96 Pippen - 120 offensive rating
'96 Penny - 108 offensive rating

'96 Schrempf - 107 offensive rating
'96 Pippen - 106 offensive rating

'96 Kemp -- lol, a Center

'97 Howard - 123 offensive rating
'97 Pippen - 106 offensive rating

'99 Rice - 117 offensive rating
'99 Pippen - 102 offensive rating


So, even in the eight series and eight match-ups (you're deluded to count Kemp, and I sure won't) you cherry-pick across Pippen's career, the lowlights...he produces a higher offensive rating than his man in three of them, is out-done in four (one a virtual draw) and ties in one.

His average Game Score was higher in 5 of 8.

These are, again, the supposed lowlights, and we're paying zero mind to the surrounding context (how often these players actually matched up, the rest of their games, non-box score stats etc...just taking at face value that they can be compared neatly.)...

[Axe]

'91 Pippen: 107 offensive rating
'91 Worthy: 100 offensive rating

'92 Pippen - 106 offensive rating
'92 McDaniel - 106 offensive rating

'93 Nique - 109 offensive rating
'93 Pippen - 100 offensive rating

'95 Pippen - 122 offensive rating
'95 Johnson - 119 offensive rating

'96 Pippen - 120 offensive rating
'96 Penny - 108 offensive rating

'96 Schrempf - 107 offensive rating
'96 Pippen - 106 offensive rating

'96 Kemp -- lol, a Center

'97 Howard - 123 offensive rating
'97 Pippen - 106 offensive rating

'99 Rice - 117 offensive rating
'99 Pippen - 102 offensive rating


So, even in the eight series and eight match-ups (you're deluded to count Kemp, and I sure won't) you cherry-pick across Pippen's career, the lowlights...he produces a higher offensive rating than his man in three of them, is out-done in four (one a virtual draw) and ties in one.

His average Game Score was higher in 5 of 8.

These are, again, the supposed lowlights, and we're paying zero mind to the surrounding context (how often these players actually matched up, the rest of their games, non-box score stats etc...just taking at face value that they can be compared neatly.)...
/thread

[Full Court]

Dominique was the only 1st option on the list and some of those guys were 3rd options like Rice or Schrempf, while X-Man was actually a 4th or 5th option during those years.

So your argument doesn't really work.. Maybe Kemp was a 1st option too but he alternated as 1a or 1b with Payton, while Pip was destroyed by their 3rd option anyway (Schrempf).

And the main point is that Dominique dropped 30 ppg on a so-called all-time defender - I thought Pippen could lock guys down? Why does Dominique wear out Pippen by so much that Pippen has nothing left to score himself??? (15 on 33%)..

It was such a massive gap and it showed that Dominique was a true 1st option - he could build a real 50-win team from scratch that could win 50 every year, while Pippen needed to inherit a 3-peat dynasty to have a one-off season - he couldn't build a real 50-win team from scratch like literally any other player in the top 50 all-time.. This demonstrates that he was simply inflated by the winning spotlight and wasn't a true 1st option like everyone else that is ranked near him - 2nd options can't be top 50 - only the winning spotlight can do it, as we see clearly with Pippen..

Not only did Pippen fall short of 1st option-caliber (can't build a real 50-win team from scratch), but he wasn't 2nd option-caliber either - he was only 2nd option alongside the goat scorer and no other scorers to compete with, otherwise he was 3rd through 6th option on normal teams that have several scoring options.

Ultimately, there's a trend here - Pippen isn't capable of going toe-to-toe with the best players like Dominique, Barkley, Malone, etc - he wasn't anywhere near their caliber.. Imagine what Bird would do to poor Pippen given that Dominique or Penny destroyed him so badly, while secondary-producing forwards like X-Man, Schrempf and many more destroyed him too.. He was ROUTINELY OUTPLAYED by opposing forwards.. Otoh, we see other sidekicks like Kyrie, AD or Wade outplay league MVP's like Curry, Jokic or Dirk - night and day - those guys were real 1st options that could go toe-to-toe with the best players and carry teams to titles.. Many sidekicks like Kareem, Curry, Kobe, Dumars, Tony Parker, Iggy and many more were FMVP or 1st options in big series, while Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and never a 1st option-caliber scorer.

Kemp was most definitely a first option too.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Maybe Kemp was a 1st option too but he alternated as 1a or 1b with Payton, while Pip was destroyed by their 3rd option anyway (Schrempf). You post this after posting this:

96' Kemp............... 23 on 50%
96' Pippen'............. 16 on 40% The end.

[Axe]

You post this after posting this:
The end.
:oldlol:

[3ba11]

Kemp was most definitely a first option too.


It makes no difference because it didn't matter that Kyrie was a 2nd option when he destroyed MVP Curry, and it didn't matter for AD when he destroyed future MVP Joker, and it didn't matter for Wade when he outplayed MVP Dirk.

So you're making my point - unlike other sidekicks like Kyrie, Wade, AD or 90's sidekicks, Pippen couldn't compete with the top players in the league.. Meanwhile, sidekicks like Terry Porter dominated Karl Malone to carry the Blazers to the 92' Finals, or KJ dominated Magic to make the WCF and also dominated Hakeem twice, or Kyrie dominated Curry, or Dumars dominated the Lakers to win FMVP, or Stockton dominated Drexler to make the 97' Finals, or Dumars/Worthy/Parker/Iggy/Maxwell won FMVP, or Kobe was Kobe, and AD dominated Joker, and on and on... Otoh, Pippen wasn't capable of elite production or competing with the league's top players because he was a secondary producer like Klay or Nance.

Btw, Kemp was often 2nd option - it wasn't clear-cut in each series like it was for other teams in the 90's or recent teams like Curry/Klay or Lebron/Wade - Kemp and Payton truly shared the #1 option duties and the 96' or 97' Playoffs show this (the only long runs they had together in their primes), while Payton had more high-scoring playoff runs and generally led the PPG once both players entered their primes (95-97' before Kemp was traded in 98').

So you claimed that I included numerous 1st options on the list but that's incorrect because Dominique is the only one and Pippen was outscored by Dominique's 2nd option Kevin Willis in that series too - so it's a moot point - I could've included Willis instead of Nique - both are forwards... And again, Pippen should've been competing on the same level as Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Smits, and other 1st options because every other sidekick did exactly that.

[Axe]

Coward ass op still ducking Peja, i see.

[3ba11]

.

Revised List of Pippen vs forwards or long wings


92' X-Man'............. 19 on 50% (3rd option)
92' Pippen............. 16 on 40%

92' Drexler............. 25 on 41%
92' Pippen'............. 21 on 48%

93' Dominique........ 30 on 44%
93' Willis'............... 18 on 44%
93' Pippen.............. 15 on 33%

93' Barkley............. 25 on 50%
93' Pippen.............. 20 on 43%

93' Dumas............. 16 on 57% (4th option)
93' Pippen'............. 21 on 44%

95' Johnson............ 21 on 48%
95' Pippen.............. 16 on 42%

96' Penny............... 26 on 47%
96' Pippen.............. 19 on 45%

96' Kemp............... 23 on 50%
96' Schrempf.......... 16 on 50% (3rd option)
96' Pippen.............. 16 on 34%

97' Howard............. 19 on 46%
97' Murray.............. 18 on 57% (4th option)
97' Pippen.............. 17 on 39%

97' Malone'............. 24 on 44%
97' Pippen.............. 19 on 42%

98' Rice.................. 23 on 44%
98' Pippen'.............. 18 on 44%

98' Malone'.............. 25 on 50%
98' Pippen............... 16 on 41%

99' Rice.................. 18 on 55% (3rd option)
99' Pippen'.............. 18 on 32%

91' Worthy'.............. 19 on 47% (injured)
91' Pippen............... 20 on 50%



^^^ From 91-99', Pippen was outplayed by opposing forwards or long wings in 13 of 27 series and couldn't compete on the same level as the best players in the league (Barkley, Malone, Grant Hill, Bird, Penny, Payton, etc)

[Axe]

1-9

[Full Court]

It makes no difference because it didn't matter that Kyrie was a 2nd option when he destroyed MVP Curry, and it didn't matter for AD when he destroyed future MVP Joker, and it didn't matter for Wade when he outplayed MVP Dirk.

So you're making my point - unlike other sidekicks like Kyrie, Wade, AD or 90's sidekicks, Pippen couldn't compete with the top players in the league.. Meanwhile, sidekicks like Terry Porter dominated Karl Malone to carry the Blazers to the 92' Finals, or KJ dominated Magic to make the WCF and also dominated Hakeem twice, or Kyrie dominated Curry, or Dumars dominated the Lakers to win FMVP, or Stockton dominated Drexler to make the 97' Finals, or Dumars/Worthy/Parker/Iggy/Maxwell won FMVP, or Kobe was Kobe, and AD dominated Joker, and on and on... Otoh, Pippen wasn't capable of elite production or competing with the league's top players because he was a secondary producer like Klay or Nance.

Btw, Kemp was often 2nd option - it wasn't clear-cut in each series like it was for other teams in the 90's or recent teams like Curry/Klay or Lebron/Wade - Kemp and Payton truly shared the #1 option duties and the 96' or 97' Playoffs show this (the only long runs they had together in their primes), while Payton had more high-scoring playoff runs and generally led the PPG once both players entered their primes (95-97' before Kemp was traded in 98').

So you claimed that I included numerous 1st options on the list but that's incorrect because Dominique is the only one and Pippen was outscored by Dominique's 2nd option Kevin Willis in that series too - so it's a moot point - I could've included Willis instead of Nique - both are forwards... And again, Pippen should've been competing on the same level as Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Smits, and other 1st options because every other sidekick did exactly that.

Lol. Come on, bro. I claimed no such thing. My exact words were "some of those guys." Specifically Wilkins and Kemp.

[3ba11]

Lol. Come on, bro. I claimed no such thing. My exact words were "some of those guys." Specifically Wilkins and Kemp.


Pippen was outscored by Dominique's 2nd option Kevin Willis and also a bunch of 3rd and 4th options that you ignored... So who cares if Dominique was a 1st option - the best sidekicks outplayed 1st options routinely and the best players in the league - only Pippen didn't do this because he was just an athlete/transition player and not a good scorer, shooter, or go-to player.. this bum made exactly zero threes in the 93' Finals and had 43/54/0 shoot splits - he also had the worst shooting splits ever in the 96' and 98' playoffs and was outscored by opposing forwards about half the time from 91-99' with inferior efficiency as well

[Full Court]

Pippen was outscored by Dominique's 2nd option Kevin Willis and also a bunch of 3rd and 4th options that you ignored... So who cares if Dominique was a 1st option - the best sidekicks outplayed 1st options routinely and the best players in the league - only Pippen didn't do this because he was just an athlete/transition player and not a good scorer, shooter, or go-to player.. this bum made exactly zero threes in the 93' Finals and had 43/54/0 shoot splits - he also had the worst shooting splits ever in the 96' and 98' playoffs and was obviously outplayed by opposing forwards about half the time from 91-99' with inferior efficiency as well

But the Bulls three-peated twice, so Pippen must have not been dragging them down too badly. :confusedshrug:

[3ba11]

But the Bulls three-peated twice, so Pippen must have not been dragging them down too badly. :confusedshrug:


Pippen cost the Bulls titles in 88', 89', 90', and 95' - surely the "Bad Boy Killer" (Worthy) would've helped MJ beat the Bad Boys in those year and 3-peat.. A prime X-Man that was 22/11 every year and made the 87' WCF (25/9/4 against the Lakers) would've won with MJ in those years as well.. MJ only needed an athletic sidekick that could average 15-20 system or transition points with weak efficiency and zero responsibility in high-leverage minutes - that's the easiest sidekick job ever - anyone remotely viable would've won with MJ and pippen's weak play and getting outplayed by opposing forwards showed that... In addition to costing the Bulls titles from 88-90' and 95', Pippen nearly choked away titles and caused 7 game series in 92' ECSF (x-man debacle) or 98' ECF.. He also nearly choked away the series in 93' Finals or 97' Finals or 96' Finals with weak play that caused unecessarily close series - anytime a series was close or lost, it was pippen's poor play that caused it.

[Carbine]

Boiling players down to PPG and FG percentage is simpleton shit.

Luka had a sidekick do 27 PPG on legendary efficiency and went from the 4th seed to out of the playoffs with that kind of sidekick "production"

[8Ball]

Boiling players down to PPG and FG percentage is simpleton shit.

Luka had a sidekick do 27 PPG on legendary efficiency and went from the 4th seed to out of the playoffs with that kind of sidekick "production"

PPG is the the main metric we can talk about regarding Jordan. We aren't able to bring up passing and rebounding because Jordan was an average NBA player at those categories.

[Baller234]

Jordan was definitely not just an average passer.

https://i.gifer.com/TGs8.gif

[8Ball]

Yeah he was. I can find you gifs of Kyrie Irving having 1 nice pass here or there, Kyrie Irving is still a mediocre passer for a guard.

[Full Court]

Yeah he was. I can find you gifs of Kyrie Irving having 1 nice pass here or there, Kyrie Irving is still a mediocre passer for a guard.

^Desperation from an insecure Bronie fluffing canuck.


Yaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwn.

[8Ball]

Yeah he was. I can find you gifs of Kyrie Irving having 1 nice pass here or there, Kyrie Irving is still a mediocre passer for a guard.

"Kyrie Irving is a great passer" - Said no one ever.

Hey look I found a Kyrie Irving nice pass, I wonder if this will be enough to convince the zombies that Kyrie is a great passer. Maybe Kyrie stans.

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/2502758/kyyy.0.gif



Jordan is an average passer for a guard, 5 apg for his career, nothing special.

[8Ball]

^Desperation from an insecure Bronie fluffing canuck.


Yaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwn.

You have nearly double the amount of posts I do in even less time on this board = massive desperation to fluff Jordan.

[Real Men Wear Green]

PPG is the the main metric we can talk about regarding Jordan. We aren't able to bring up passing and rebounding because Jordan was an average NBA player at those categories.

Just because OP wrote some stupid shit doesn't mean that you should reply with some opposing stupid shit.

[Full Court]

You have nearly double the amount of posts I do in even less time on this board = massive desperation to fluff Jordan.

And a good portion of those posts of mine are ethering you. At least twice I've beaten you down so badly on here that you've disappeared for multiple months. :lol

[tpols]

Yeah he was. I can find you gifs of Kyrie Irving having 1 nice pass here or there, Kyrie Irving is still a mediocre passer for a guard.

I think you're conflating passing ability with passing willingness. Most of Lebrons assists are rudimentary kickouts. He doesn't even have the passing highlight tape of a Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan.

[3ba11]

Boiling players down to PPG and FG percentage is simpleton shit.

Luka had a sidekick do 27 PPG on legendary efficiency and went from the 4th seed to out of the playoffs with that kind of sidekick "production"


When a top scoring option is frequently getting destroyed by his matchup in scoring, efficiency and clutch, this hurts the team's ability to win more than anything else.. the Bulls could've done even better with a forward that wasn't getting outplayed all the time by opposing forwards.

Pippen's poor play caused losses in 88', 89', 90', 95' and numerous near losses like the 92' ECSF, 93' Finals (46% TS), 98' ECF, 97' Finals, 98' Finals, and more.. Any time a series was close or lost, it was Pippen's poor play that caused it.

[Axe]

Pippen cost the Bulls titles in 88', 89', 90', and 95' - surely the "Bad Boy Killer" (Worthy) would've helped MJ beat the Bad Boys in those year and 3-peat.. A prime X-Man that was 22/11 every year and made the 87' WCF (25/9/4 against the Lakers) would've won with MJ in those years as well.. MJ only needed an athletic sidekick that could average 15-20 system or transition points with weak efficiency and zero responsibility in high-leverage minutes - that's the easiest sidekick job ever - anyone remotely viable would've won with MJ and pippen's weak play and getting outplayed by opposing forwards showed that... In addition to costing the Bulls titles from 88-90' and 95', Pippen nearly choked away titles and caused 7 game series in 92' ECSF (x-man debacle) or 98' ECF.. He also nearly choked away the series in 93' Finals or 97' Finals or 96' Finals with weak play that caused unecessarily close series - anytime a series was close or lost, it was pippen's poor play that caused it.
:oldlol:

[3ba11]

:oldlol:


Imagine winning 6 titles with a guy that was destroyed by old X-Man and never played as well as prime X-Man did in the 87' Playoffs, and never played as well as Horry in 6 Finals (0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals), and was drastically outplayed by Reggie Miller 6/6 times against the same playoff opponent (i.e. Pippen averaged 19 on 40% vs 95' Magic compared to 26 on 53% for Miller - this happened 6 times during their playoff careers).. These are good gauges of Pippen's ability (worse than Miller, prime X-Man, or peak Horry on the championship level).. Pippen's raw stats, advanced metrics and overall athletic/transition style compare to Larry Nance.. Jordan went 6/6 with this.

[8Ball]

And a good portion of those posts of mine are ethering you. At least twice I've beaten you down so badly on here that you've disappeared for multiple months. :lol

Ethering what? I've destroyed you so much it's become boring. Like an arm wrestler that never loses against his opponents. He moves on with his life.

[8Ball]

I think you're conflating passing ability with passing willingness. Most of Lebrons assists are rudimentary kickouts. He doesn't even have the passing highlight tape of a Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan.

Kobe Bryant had great passing ability? Lmfao, are we talking about the passes that hit the iron first and counts as a rebound?

[8Ball]

Just because OP wrote some stupid shit doesn't mean that you should reply with some opposing stupid shit.

Jordan averaged 5 ppg for his career, which is what nearly every single high scoring shooting guard in the NBA averages.

Donovan Mitchell
Kyrie Irving
Bradley Beal
Kobe Bryant
Devin Booker
etc etc


What makes Jordan above those guys above passing wise?


And if you look at eye test pure passing ability, I don't see Jordan at Ginobili level of passing like this on a consistent basis. Maybe 1 or 2 passes a year like it, but not on a weekly level like Ginobili has done:

https://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2685923/manupass2.gif

[Full Court]

Ethering what? I've destroyed you so much it's become boring. Like an arm wrestler that never loses against his opponents. He moves on with his life.

For as long as he's on ISH, 8balless will be known as Full Court's Bitch.



:lebronamazed:

[Carbine]

When a top scoring option is frequently getting destroyed by his matchup in scoring, efficiency and clutch, this hurts the team's ability to win more than anything else.. the Bulls could've done even better with a forward that wasn't getting outplayed all the time by opposing forwards.

Pippen's poor play caused losses in 88', 89', 90', 95' and numerous near losses like the 92' ECSF, 93' Finals (46% TS), 98' ECF, 97' Finals, 98' Finals, and more.. Any time a series was close or lost, it was Pippen's poor play that caused it.

So the opposite must be true, too.

When your own sidekick is obliterating other sidekicks (like Kyrie was) this helps the teams ability to win "more than anything else"

Except it didn't. Go figure

[warriorfan]

"Kyrie Irving is a great passer" - Said no one ever.

Hey look I found a Kyrie Irving nice pass, I wonder if this will be enough to convince the zombies that Kyrie is a great passer. Maybe Kyrie stans.

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/2502758/kyyy.0.gif



Jordan is an average passer for a guard, 5 apg for his career, nothing special.

that wasn’t even a good pass

[Real Men Wear Green]

Jordan averaged 5 ppg for his career, which is what nearly every single high scoring shooting guard in the NBA averages.

Donovan Mitchell
Kyrie Irving
Bradley Beal
Kobe Bryant
Devin Booker
etc etc


What makes Jordan above those guys above passing wise?


And if you look at eye test pure passing ability, I don't see Jordan at Ginobili level of passing like this on a consistent basis. Maybe 1 or 2 passes a year like it, but not on a weekly level like Ginobili has done:

https://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2685923/manupass2.gif

You are compounding the stupidity with more stupidity. Not ink only is 5 assists per game a fine statistic, but there is more to passing than just the statistic. MJ was the most effective perimeter player in NBA history. In his fifth season he averaged 8 assists and he's always had the ability to hit the open man and set up teammates for open shots. As the greatest perimeter scorer of all time the main job he had was to put the ball in the hole. I am not going to argue with you much more because I know you're one of our several trolling dumbasses but FYI that 8apg season Jordan also averaged 8 rebounds. As a guard.

[Carbine]

Steph averages low assists too, relatively speaking.

[Axe]

Imagine winning 6 titles with a guy that was destroyed by old X-Man and never played as well as prime X-Man did in the 87' Playoffs, and never played as well as Horry in 6 Finals (0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals), and was drastically outplayed by Reggie Miller 6/6 times against the same playoff opponent (i.e. Pippen averaged 19 on 40% vs 95' Magic compared to 26 on 53% for Miller - this happened 6 times during their playoff careers).. These are good gauges of Pippen's ability (worse than Miller, prime X-Man, or peak Horry on the championship level).. Pippen's raw stats, advanced metrics and overall athletic/transition style compare to Larry Nance.. Jordan went 6/6 with this.
But haven't you heard? Pippen did not drag them down as the bulls were still able to win six rings. :lol

[Real Men Wear Green]

Steph averages low assists too, relatively speaking.

For both him as well as Jordan focusing on more assists would be a foolish thing to do. A player should always loin to do the things that make them a great player. For Jordan and Curry that's scoring first and foremost. Nothing scares the opposition more in the current NBA than Curry with the ball behind the three point line.

[8Ball]

You are compounding the stupidity with more stupidity. Not ink only is 5 assists per game a fine statistic, but there is more to passing than just the statistic. MJ was the most effective perimeter player in NBA history. In his fifth season he averaged 8 assists and he's always had the ability to hit the open man and set up teammates for open shots. As the greatest perimeter scorer of all time the main job he had was to put the ball in the hole. I am not going to argue with you much more because I know you're one of our several trolling dumbasses but FYI that 8apg season Jordan also averaged 8 rebounds. As a guard.

5 assists per game = average for a ball dominant guard. He's not the only player in history that has 20+ FGA per game, scores a lot, and has 5 assists per game.

The year he averaged 8 assists per game was the same year he was chasing triple doubles to stat pad.

So if I said he was slightly above average (even though his apg lines up exactly as average for a guard) that would make you feel better?

[8Ball]

Recent era:

SGA - 31ppg - 5.5 apg (2023)
Tatum - 30 ppg - 5 apg (2023)
Kevin Durant - 27 ppg - 4 apg and later 5 apg
Donovan Mitchen - 28 ppg - 4.4 apg (2023)
Devin Booker - 28ppg - 5.5 apg (2023)


Jordan's era:

Kobe Bryant - 25ppg - 5 apg for career
Trady McGRady - 5 apg during his high scoring years.
Allen Iverson - 27ppg - 6 apg


As the greatest perimeter scorer of all time the main job he had was to put the ball in the hole

All of the above players mentioned had a main job to do and that was to put the ball in the hole as well. They just took less shots than Jordan did.

So calling Jordan "average" passer with apg of 5 amongst high scoring guards is not only appropriate, but factual.

[sdot_thadon]

Another mental health banger by OP. Terrible on so many levels but let's take a few moments to look at this trash up close.


.

92' X-Man'............. 19 on 50%
92' Pippen............. 16 on 40%

Xman also had 113 fga to 92 for Scottie....but that sort of thing happens when your 1st option shoots almost 50 fga less than Mj in that series.



93' Dominique....... 30 on 44%
93' Pippen............. 15 on 33%

Scottie vs.....the 2nd leading scorer in the NBA, meanwhile former "dpoy" pulled the assignment of Stacey Augmon and his dynamic 14ppg. And Nique actually shot 42.7% from the field, lower than his 46.8% on the season. Can't make this up




95' Johnson........... 21 on 48%
95' Pippen............. 16 on 42%

Scottie vs the 1A/1B of a team that happens to be a 4? and took 22 less fga than Grandmama and once again lying in the stats. Scottie shot 51% that series.



96' Penny.............. 26 on 47% (H2H matchup)
96' Pippen............. 19 on 45%

Scottie again had to take on the 1B of a team and shoot 16 less fga than Penny was allowed. Crazy thing is it would have been nice if the Bulls had a guard, a dpoy level guard that could matchup with a fast 2 like Hardaway......



96' Schrempf......... 16 on 50%
96' Pippen............. 16 on 34%

96' Kemp............... 23 on 50%
96' Pippen'............. 16 on 40%

Right here he basically says Pippen guarded both Kemp and Schrempf simultaneously for a series and held them both to these numbers while somehow logging 2 completely different fg%s himself in the series. Amazing



97' Howard............. 19 on 46%
97' Pippen.............. 17 on 39%

Scottie vs. a career Pf lol.



99' Rice.................. 18 on 55%
99' Pippen'.............. 18 on 32%

Scottie vs a career 1st option that joined another 1st option and actually played 3rd option that year. And by this time Scottie wasn't the same anymore.



91' Worthy.............. 19 on 47% (injured)
91' Pippen.............. 20 on 50%

Scottie actually got moved around that series and wasn't even matched up with Worthy the whole time. This is well known.



[I]The only guys that Pippen barely outscored (with worst-ever efficiency and no scoring in high-leverage minutes) were guards that were underperforming against MJ

He had the only 1st option blowing every other 1st option out of the water in fga too. Less opportunities to go around without a doubt.



Btw, Pippen didn't know how to play defense from 88-90', so he followed MJ's lead - MJ got more DPOY votes every year except 96' and 97', which includes #2 in 1993 (pippen didn't qualify for a ranking that year)
His 2nd year in the league Scottie was in the top 20 for steals per game while only being a starter for 56 games. His 3rd? 3rd in the league. Gtfoh

[Axe]

Another mental health banger by OP. Terrible on so many levels but let's take a few moments to look at this trash up close.


Xman also had 113 fga to 92 for Scottie....but that sort of thing happens when your 1st option shoots almost 50 fga less than Mj in that series.


Scottie vs.....the 2nd leading scorer in the NBA, meanwhile former "dpoy" pulled the assignment of Stacey Augmon and his dynamic 14ppg. And Nique actually shot 42.7% from the field, lower than his 46.8% on the season. Can't make this up



Scottie vs the 1A/1B of a team that happens to be a 4? and took 22 less fga than Grandmama and once again lying in the stats. Scottie shot 51% that series.


Scottie again had to take on the 1B of a team and shoot 16 less fga than Penny was allowed. Crazy thing is it would have been nice if the Bulls had a guard, a dpoy level guard that could matchup with a fast 2 like Hardaway......


Right here he basically says Pippen guarded both Kemp and Schrempf simultaneously for a series and held them both to these numbers while somehow logging 2 completely different fg%s himself in the series. Amazing


Scottie vs. a career Pf lol.


Scottie vs a career 1st option that joined another 1st option and actually played 3rd option that year. And by this time Scottie wasn't the same anymore.


Scottie actually got moved around that series and wasn't even matched up with Worthy the whole time. This is well known.


He had the only 1st option blowing every other 1st option out of the water in fga too. Less opportunities to go around without a doubt.


His 2nd year in the league Scottie was in the top 20 for steals per game while only being a starter for 56 games. His 3rd? 3rd in the league. Gtfoh
Yikes. :oldlol:

Let's look later how he'll try to spin his way outta this one.

[3ba11]

.

Revised List of Pippen vs forwards or long wings


92' X-Man'............. 19 on 50% (3rd option)
92' Pippen............. 16 on 40%

92' Drexler............. 25 on 41%
92' Pippen'............. 21 on 48%

93' Dominique........ 30 on 44%
93' Willis'............... 18 on 44%
93' Pippen.............. 15 on 33%

93' Barkley............. 25 on 50%
93' Pippen.............. 20 on 43%

93' Dumas............. 16 on 57% (4th option)
93' Pippen'............. 21 on 44%

95' Johnson............ 21 on 48%
95' Pippen.............. 16 on 42%

96' Penny............... 26 on 47%
96' Pippen.............. 19 on 45%

96' Kemp............... 23 on 50%
96' Schrempf.......... 16 on 50% (3rd option)
96' Pippen.............. 16 on 34%

97' Howard............. 19 on 46%
97' Murray.............. 18 on 57% (4th option)
97' Pippen.............. 17 on 39%

97' Malone'............. 24 on 44%
97' Pippen.............. 19 on 42%

98' Rice.................. 23 on 44%
98' Pippen'.............. 18 on 44%

98' Malone'.............. 25 on 50%
98' Pippen............... 16 on 41%

99' Rice.................. 18 on 55% (3rd option)
99' Pippen'.............. 18 on 32%

91' Worthy'.............. 19 on 47% (injured)
91' Pippen............... 20 on 50%



^^^ From 91-99', Pippen was outscored by opposing forwards or long wings in 13 of 27 series and this scoring deficit was accompanied by worst-ever efficiency and massive lane-clogging/bricklaying, zero clutch or production in high-leverage minutes, low peak capability (not on scouting report according to Shaq - pip was a system or transition player that couldn't "go off" and didn't require game-planning), and he couldn't compete on the same level as the best players in the league (Barkley, Malone, etc) - he was never expected to play on the same level as Barkley or Malone and there were zero promos that said "Big forward matchup Pippen vs Barkley" because no one thought Pippen was on that top level - it wasn't even a consideration and would've been considered ABSURD to put Pippen anywhere near the top level players - see the numbers above that prove Pippen couldn't compete with the top players in the league and was usually outplayed by opposing forwards or long wings

[3ba11]

subjective excuses for a massive historical trend of pippen getting outscored by opposing forwards or long wings


As the revised list above shows, Pippen was usually outscored by opposing forwards or long wings.. :confusedshrug:

while also having worst-ever efficiency (bricklaying and lane-clogging), clutch or production in high-leverage minutes, and low peak capability (never a threat to "go off" - transition player mostly), so he didn't require game-planning (shaq said he wasn't on scouting report).

Ultimately, Pippen couldn't compete on the same level as opposing forwards, long wings or the best players in the league (Barkley, Malone, etc) - there were zero promos that said "Big forward matchup - Pippen vs Barkley" because Pippen wasn't expected to compete on that level and no one viewed him as on that level.. So while Pippen can't compete with opposing forwards or the best players in the league, Lebron is the only guy with sidekicks that outplayed league MVP's (Kyrie over Curry.. AD over Jokic.. Wade over Dirk).

[Axe]

Took op three days to formulate a simpleton reply. :lebronamazed:

[3ba11]

Took op three days to formulate a simpleton reply. :lebronamazed:


Thread Cliffs


Pippen was usually outscored by opposing forwards or long wings and wasn't expected to compete at the same level as the best players in the league like Barkley, Malone, Hakeem, etc - there were zero promos that said "Big forward matchup - Pippen vs Barkley" because Pippen wasn't expected to compete on that level and no one viewed him on that level.. So while Pippen can't compete with opposing forwards or the best players in the league, Lebron is the only guy with sidekicks that outplayed league MVP's (Kyrie over Curry.. AD over Jokic.. Wade over Dirk).. This is a clear-cut demonstration of his vastly superior help compared to MJ.

Ultimately, Pippen wasn't expected to compete with the best players and was outscored by opposing forwards, while also having worst-ever efficiency (bricklaying and lane-clogging), clutch or production in high-leverage minutes, and low peak capability (never a threat to "go off" - transition player mostly), so he didn't require game-planning (shaq said he wasn't on scouting report).

[8Ball]

There's no getting around 1-9 or the fact that Pippen won 55 games in 1994.

[3ba11]

There's no getting around 1-9 or the fact that Pippen won 55 games in 1994.


1) Unlike Dominique Wilkins, Pippen can't build a 50-win team from scratch (not a true 1st option)

2) Furthermore, Pip can't be the best player on a real 50-win team (a team that can win 50 every year) like Dominique can

:confusedshrug:

Pippen simply inherited a 3-peat dynasty for a one-off year and then collapse in Year 2 - he destroyed a 3-peat dynasty to borderline lottery in less than 18 months before MJ returned to restore 3-peat caliber.

btw, everyone loses with lottery casts as a rookie or sophomore, so 1-9 is meaningless too.. it simply punishes MJ for setting the goat standard of winning with the 1st all-star teammate that he ever had and never needing another one... meanwhile, everyone else needed MANY all-star teammates but won much less

[Axe]

Thread Cliffs


Pippen was usually outscored by opposing forwards or long wings and wasn't expected to compete at the same level as the best players in the league like Barkley, Malone, Hakeem, etc - there were zero promos that said "Big forward matchup - Pippen vs Barkley" because Pippen wasn't expected to compete on that level and no one viewed him on that level.. So while Pippen can't compete with opposing forwards or the best players in the league, Lebron is the only guy with sidekicks that outplayed league MVP's (Kyrie over Curry.. AD over Jokic.. Wade over Dirk).. This is a clear-cut demonstration of his vastly superior help compared to MJ.

Ultimately, Pippen wasn't expected to compete with the best players and was outscored by opposing forwards, while also having worst-ever efficiency (bricklaying and lane-clogging), clutch or production in high-leverage minutes, and low peak capability (never a threat to "go off" - transition player mostly), so he didn't require game-planning (shaq said he wasn't on scouting report).
Still ducking Peja i see.

[8Ball]

1) Unlike Dominique Wilkins, Pippen can't build a 50-win team from scratch (not a true 1st option)

2) Furthermore, Pip can't be the best player on a real 50-win team (a team that can win 50 every year) like Dominique can

:confusedshrug:

Pippen simply inherited a 3-peat dynasty for a one-off year and then collapse in Year 2 - he destroyed a 3-peat dynasty to borderline lottery in less than 18 months before MJ returned to restore 3-peat caliber.

btw, everyone loses with lottery casts as a rookie or sophomore, so 1-9 is meaningless too.. it simply punishes MJ for setting the goat standard of winning with the 1st all-star teammate that he ever had and never needing another one... meanwhile, everyone else needed MANY all-star teammates but won much less

1994 - Pippen - 1st team all-nba + 3rd mvp voting = best player on 55 win team.

[Xiao Yao You]

1994 - Pippen - 1st team all-nba + 3rd mvp voting = best player on 55 win team.

Horace was a huge part. Without him what did Pippen do?

[8Ball]

Horace was a huge part. Without him what did Pippen do?

Without Horace, Jordan and Pippen together lost in 1995.

[sdot_thadon]

Took op three days to formulate a simpleton reply. :lebronamazed:

Oh he scared and I won't even take the time to pulverize his posts like that Peja guy's been doing. Funniest thing is his response to a thread entiled


Pippen's defense was overrated - he couldn't contain opposing SF's

He can only discuss scoring.....and has to use point guards, shooting guards, power forwards, AND centers because his argument collapsed upon itself before he could even finish the OP. Boy been trash a long time. I mean for all intent and purpose the thread ended here.

Psycopath scours a 15 year career and can only find 9 opponents, some of whom were not even small forwards. And what does Pippen scoring stats have to do with how well he defended them?

[Axe]

Oh he scared and I won't even take the time to pulverize his posts like that Peja guy's been doing. Funniest thing is his response to a thread entiled



He can only discuss scoring.....and has to use point guards, shooting guards, power forwards, AND centers because his argument collapsed upon itself before he could even finish the OP. Boy been trash a long time. I mean for all intent and purpose the thread ended here.
:roll:

'Goat poster' in ish tho, at least according to his braindead disciple. :lol

[3ba11]

Oh he scared and I won't even take the time to pulverize his posts like that Peja guy's been doing. Funniest thing is his response to a thread entiled



He can only discuss scoring.....and has to use point guards, shooting guards, power forwards, AND centers because his argument collapsed upon itself before he could even finish the OP. Boy been trash a long time. I mean for all intent and purpose the thread ended here.


I don't really post on here anymore.. I come on here for a few minutes every other day to slap you guys around a bit and then I'm audi

And you didn't respond to the thread title because you couldn't.. It's a fact that Pippen couldn't hang with opposing forwards as the numbers show

And when did Pippen go to the Finals and destroy MVP Barkley or Malone? That would be absurd - everyone knew that Pippen couldn't compete on the same level as the best players in the league and he was routinely outplayed by ordinary forwards, whereas Lebron's sidekicks outplayed league MVP's.. This is a MASSIVE gap that you cannot refute or respond to because it's historical record - Lebron had FAR more help but won FAR less.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

I don't really post on here anymore.. I come on here for a few minutes every other day

Quite the influence I had, then. From 12k posts in 2 years to “barely around”. Hope you learned something and improved as a person, sonny. :banana:

[RRR3]

Quite the influence I had, then. From 12k posts in 2 years to “barely around”. Hope you learned something and improved as a person, sonny. :banana:
The board is better because of it. Maybe help us clean up the politics forum next, you'd be amazed at what lunatics are on there.

[3ba11]

Quite the influence I had, then. From 12k posts in 2 years to “barely around”. Hope you learned something and improved as a person, sonny. :banana:


You made me realize that my arguments can't be refuted.. I was like Mike in 93' - no more challenges.. So again, now I just come around to smack you guys around because you fell for the fraud, and then I'm audi.

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


Pippen was usually outplayed by opposing forwards, while Kyrie, AD and Wade outplayed league MVP's

In addition to getting outplayed by opposing forwards, pippen was never expected to keep up with MVP Barkley or Malone, whereas Wade was considered better than Dirk and expected to outplay him... Ditto for AD over Joker... Meanwhile, Kyrie was a #1 pick and franchise player, so he didn't get any credit when he outplayed Curry because people half-expected it..

These are clear-cut demonstrations that Lebron's sidekicks were elite producers and "closers" that could outplay league MVP's, while Pippen was just an athlete/transition player and lower producer that usually got destroyed by opposing forwards (let alone the best players in the league like Malone or Barkley where Pippen has zero chance).

[3ba11]

I won't even take the time to pulverize his posts like that Peja guy's been doing.





You just don't want to be like Peja, aka unable to viably respond but responding anyway...

responding to get fake praise from defeated Lebron fans that gave up on responding like 4 years ago (after his rude awakening out West in 2019 - many Lebron fans realized he was a fraud at that time and stopped responding to me)

lol.. you guys are a sad bunch of fraud victims

[Axe]

Op is so triggered he has to post three times in a row.

[sdot_thadon]

And you didn't respond to the thread title because you couldn't.. It's a fact that Pippen couldn't hang with opposing forwards as the numbers show

I mean to be honest, I replied to your thread better than you did. You posted this as the title:


Pippen's defense was overrated - he couldn't contain opposing SF's

And immediately started comparing his scoring to a bunch of guys that play completely different positions. Your awareness rating is like a negative 75, I'd imagine in a thread titled "overrated defender can't contain blank" we'd at bare minimum talk defense.....

Oh and nobody gives a shit how this relates to your Lebron obsession. Do better.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

You made me realize that my arguments can't be refuted.. I was like Mike in 93' - no more challenges.. So again, now I just come around to smack you guys around because you fell for the fraud, and then I'm audi.

Maybe if you state it another 800 or so times, you might actually believe a word of that.

[Axe]

Maybe if you state it another 800 or so times, you might actually believe a word of that.
:oldlol:

[Lebron23]

No Pip No Chip

[Phoenix]

I don't know how OP continues to draw multiple page topics when you all know what he's doing. The obsession with responding to him is as strong as his obsession spamming the same 2-3 players with topics that inevitably lead to shit you've all argued 1000 times already.

World cup is on-going. New season in a month. Jordan and Pippen have been retired for 20 years. And this is the shit we decide needs to be front and center on this forum.

[8Ball]

I don't know how OP continues to draw multiple page topics when you all know what he's doing. The obsession with responding to him is as strong as his obsession spamming the same 2-3 players with topics that inevitably lead to shit you've all argued 1000 times already.

World cup is on-going. New season in a month. Jordan and Pippen have been retired for 20 years. And this is the shit we decide needs to be front and center on this forum.

Without 3ball, there would be less fun posting on this forum. Most forums ban jordan stans like this so where can we go to punch the punching bag?


On twoplustwo, I revealed that 3ball was a previously banned poster and a mod wiped out his entire posting history and perma banned him.

[Axe]

On twoplustwo, I revealed that 3ball was a previously banned poster and a mod wiped out his entire posting history and perma banned him.
Nah, i don't think that's exactly him.

[sdot_thadon]

Nah, i don't think that's exactly him.

If it isn't the same guy it's a hell of an impersonation. He went to realgm with that same name and went through like 50 accounts there too. Maybe get a few posts in before getting the new burner banned. He was getting banned on sight in 2 different forums lol.

[Axe]

If it isn't the same guy it's a hell of an impersonation. He went to realgm with that same name and went through like 50 accounts there too. Maybe get a few posts in before getting the new burner banned. He was getting banned on sight in 2 different forums lol.
Ah i thought he was talking about somebody else lmao. My bad.

[Phoenix]

Without 3ball, there would be less fun posting on this forum. Most forums ban jordan stans like this so where can we go to punch the punching bag?


On twoplustwo, I revealed that 3ball was a previously banned poster and a mod wiped out his entire posting history and perma banned him.

There were actually trolls around this forum that had some originality and personality. 3balls schtick is lame as hell. Someone like Kenneth is a good punching bag, and a few other posters I recall whom I don't see around anymore( names aren't coming to mind).

I just don't find spamming the same topics to equate to fun, but maybe that's just me.

[3ba11]

comparing his scoring to a bunch of guys that play completely different positions.





Basically everyone achieved their reguilar season numbers and efficiency vs Pippen.

Meanwhile, backcourt players compete against each other just like frontcourt players compete against each other and Pippen was outscored by all frontcourt players such as:



88' Nance (SF)
89' Newman (SF)
89'' Dantley (SF)
92' X-Man (SF)
93' Dominique (SF)
95' Johnson (SF)
96' Schrempf (SF)
97' Howard (SF)

90' Barkley (PF)
91' Barkley (PF)
93' Willis (PF)
93' Barkley (PF)
96' Kemp (PF)
97' Webber (PF)
97' Malone (PF)
98' Malone (PF)

88' Daughtery (C)
88' Laimbeer (C)
89' Daughtery (C)
92' Ewing (C)
93' Ewing (C)
95' Shaq (C)
96' Shaq (C)
96' Ewing (C)
97' Alonzo (C)



^^^Pippen was usually outplayed by all frontcourt players including ordinary guys, so the thought of him outplaying a league MVP would've been outlandish, yet that's exactly what Lebron enjoyed from his sidekicks - they could compete with the best players in the league, while Pippen was getting destroyed by all frontcourt players.

Even when Pippen would outscore someone like Rik Smits by 0.4 ppg (16.6 to 16.2), it's completely negated by westbrick efficiency and choking - Pippen's 2 missed FT's in Game 4 of the 98' ECF immediately preceded Miller's game-winner over MJ - it was one of many historic chokes for Pippen in his career - no one has worse clutch stats or more historic chokes than Pippen - this is statistical fact and the historical record.

In addition to getting outscored with worst-ever efficiency and choking, Pippen had a big advantage by being 1 of 2 scorers on the bulls, while the Cavs had a "big 4" of 20-point scorers in 1989.. Accordingly, even though Price and Daughtery were far superior scorers to Pippen, they would average slightly less because their had more scorers that needed to eat.. This is true of every contender the Bulls faced - every contender had far more scoring options.. Of course Pippen's westbrick efficiency and tendency to score in low-leverage minutes (mostly transition) more than makes up for the slight scoring deficit that opposing players would sometimes have against Pippen's transition and system points.

[nayte]

Basically everyone achieved their reguilar season numbers and efficiency vs Pippen.

Meanwhile, backcourt players compete against each other just like frontcourt players compete against each other and Pippen was outscored by all frontcourt players such as:



88' Nance (SF)
89' Newman (SF)
89'' Dantley (SF)
92' X-Man (SF)
93' Dominique (SF)
95' Johnson (SF)
96' Schrempf (SF)
97' Howard (SF)

90' Barkley (PF)
91' Barkley (PF)
93' Willis (PF)
93' Barkley (PF)
96' Kemp (PF)
97' Webber (PF)
97' Malone (PF)
98' Malone (PF)

88' Daughtery (C)
88' Laimbeer (C)
89' Daughtery (C)
92' Ewing (C)
93' Ewing (C)
95' Shaq (C)
96' Shaq (C)
96' Ewing (C)
97' Alonzo (C)



^^^Pippen was usually outplayed by all frontcourt players including ordinary guys, so the thought of him outplaying a league MVP would've been outlandish, yet that's exactly what Lebron enjoyed from his sidekicks - they could compete with the best players in the league, while Pippen was getting destroyed by all frontcourt players.

Even when Pippen would outscore someone like Rik Smits by 0.4 ppg (16.6 to 16.2), it's completely negated by westbrick efficiency and choking - Pippen's 2 missed FT's in Game 4 of the 98' ECF immediately preceded Miller's game-winner over MJ - it was one of many historic chokes for Pippen in his career - no one has worse clutch stats or more historic chokes than Pippen - this is statistical fact and the historical record.

In addition to getting outscored with worst-ever efficiency and choking, Pippen had a big advantage by being 1 of 2 scorers on the bulls, while the Cavs had a "big 4" of 20-point scorers in 1989.. Accordingly, even though Price and Daughtery were far superior scorers to Pippen, they would average slightly less because their had more scorers that needed to eat.. This is true of every contender the Bulls faced - every contender had far more scoring options.. Of course Pippen's westbrick efficiency and tendency to score in low-leverage minutes (mostly transition) more than makes up for the slight scoring deficit that opposing players would sometimes have against Pippen's transition and system points.

But your thread is about Pips defence. Was does his scoring numbers have to do with it

[sdot_thadon]

But your thread is about Pips defence. Was does his scoring numbers have to do with it

This. He's too dumb to realize what his own thread is about.

[Hey Yo]

I don't really post on here anymore.. I come on here for a few minutes every other day to slap you guys around a bit and then I'm audi

And you didn't respond to the thread title because you couldn't.. It's a fact that Pippen couldn't hang with opposing forwards as the numbers show

And when did Pippen go to the Finals and destroy MVP Barkley or Malone? That would be absurd - everyone knew that Pippen couldn't compete on the same level as the best players in the league and he was routinely outplayed by ordinary forwards, whereas Lebron's sidekicks outplayed league MVP's.. This is a MASSIVE gap that you cannot refute or respond to because it's historical record - Lebron had FAR more help but won FAR less.
That's how you can compare yourself to 93' Jordan....... you quit the board but for the opposite reasons. He petered out and had to rest up while you got your shit pushed in to the point you're afraid to post.

[3ba11]

:facepalm:

[3ba11]

That's how you can compare yourself to 93' Jordan....... you quit the board but for the opposite reasons. He petered out and had to rest up while you got your shit pushed in to the point you're afraid to post.


I reduced Peja to a worthless poster with dumb responses like Axe or Red1.. Not worth anyone's time.. It makes no sense to keep responding to someone that is simply responding to save face and reduced to dumb arguments or bs like And1AllDay

Ultimately, Lebron is a dumb ball-dominator with the worst chemistry or brand of ball ever and the biggest loser in NBA history (3-pt era) - he has perennial underdogs and losers regardless of cast - let that sink in.. His horrific record of producing underdogs shows that he would turn the 17' Warriors into underdogs just like he did with every cast that he ever had.. Any team that plays his garbage brand will be a perennial underdog - winning will be the EXCEPTION.

Peja said nothing to get me off these positions.. Our exchanges only strengthened all these positions because we got into the weeds and research always makes Lebron look worse and worse.

[3ba11]

But your thread is about Pips defence. Was does his scoring numbers have to do with it


Everyone achieved their regular season numbers and efficiency vs Pippen, so he never locked anyone down as the primary defender and let everyone outscore him..

Guys literally couldn't miss vs Pippen such as the rookie 4th option in 1993 Finals (Dumas), Jerome Kersey or even an injured Worthy got his regular numbers with good efficiency.

So Pippen's defense is overrated and individual defense is overrated in general. History shows that the Bulls' defense improved after losing MJ in 94, or Horace in 95', or Pippen in 98' (#1 defense before Pip returned from injury).. The Bulls improved defensively despite losing great individual defenders because defense is about chemistry and effort, which they had in spades.. Meanwhile, the 23' Nuggets had great defense in the Finals despite no great individual defenders - so again we see how effort & chemistry were bigger factors defensively than individual defenders..

All of this shows how overrated Pippen was... He was a weak scorer AND an overrated defender that everyone got theirs on.

[SouBeachTalents]

I don't really post on here anymore.
Posts per day: 15.21

And from the looks of it another evening spent posting about Pippen.

[sdot_thadon]

Everyone achieved their regular season numbers and efficiency vs Pippen, so he never locked anyone down as the primary defender and let everyone outscore him..

Guys literally couldn't miss vs Pippen such as the rookie 4th option in 1993 Finals (Dumas), Jerome Kersey or even an injured Worthy got his regular numbers with good efficiency.

So Pippen's defense is overrated and individual defense is overrated in general. History shows that the Bulls' defense improved after losing MJ in 94, or Horace in 95', or Pippen in 98' (#1 defense before Pip returned from injury).. The Bulls improved defensively despite losing great individual defenders because defense is about chemistry and effort, which they had in spades.. Meanwhile, the 23' Nuggets had great defense in the Finals despite no great individual defenders - so again we see how effort & chemistry were bigger factors defensively than individual defenders..

All of this shows how overrated Pippen was... He was a weak scorer AND an overrated defender that everyone got theirs on.

And still, you're more concerned with his scoring in a thread YOU wrote about his defense. Kinda weird way to say you don't have a clue what you're talking about. He's literally in the argument for best perimeter defender ever. Let's try refuting that.

[WhiteKyrie]

Scottie Pippen was a fantastic rotation / help / team defender, because of his length. He also was a good shot blocker, and rebounder. Oh, and athletic transitions scorer because of his and MJ’s smothering Doberman defense.

He was only a good on ball defender for unathletic or speedy stationary point forwards (Magic) or small point guards without creative handle who didn’t look to score (Stockton / Mark Jackson)

He routinely got his ass busted by any type of dynamic or explosive player, particularly ones with tight and creative handle. I watched Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Young Kobe, and retirement baseball Jordan absolutely bust his shit up.

It’s funny, Michael and Scottie complement each other even defensively.

Jordan was the vastly superior lockdown on ball defender where as Pip was a great rotations and help defender guy to cover up holes in the team defense.

Michael was a great rotation and help defender as well, but once Scottie Pippen developed, it eased all of his burden.

[Axe]

This. He's too dumb to realize what his own thread is about.
:lol

[WhiteKyrie]

To be honest, he’s not even the best defensive small forward of his era, he’s second. Bad Boys Detroit Pistons Dennis Rodman might be the greatest defensive SF of all time.

[999Guy]

Always had a hunch Pippen's defense was really overrated.

The footspeed just isn't impressive enough for me to think he was some lockdown guy. And he didn't seem that strong either.

Fast in open court, long, springy, active. But a truly quick guy is beating him off the dribble no issue, and a well built wing who knows what he's doing will bump off spots as needed.

I don't get freak defender vibes from Pippen, ever. Just decent to good for a long time. I would take Horry over him in a second defensively. Any era of Horry too. But especially Rockets Horry.

[3ba11]

Always had a hunch Pippen's defense was really overrated.

The footspeed just isn't impressive enough for me to think he was some lockdown guy. And he didn't seem that strong either.

Fast in open court, long, springy, active. But a truly quick guy is beating him off the dribble no issue, and a well built wing who knows what he's doing will bump off spots as needed.

I don't get freak defender vibes from Pippen, ever. Just decent to good for a long time. I would take Horry over him in a second defensively. Any era of Horry too. But especially Rockets Horry.


5 star post

Horry agrees:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U-0etnOzIw&t=53s


I've always thought that the Bulls could've won earlier and easier if they replaced Pippen's historic bricklaying and lane-clogging with Horry's futuristic spacing and clutch - Horry hit 100 big shots to win 7 rings while Pippen hit 0 to win 6.. Pippen is 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' finals.. Horry was simply ahead of his time at spacing the floor and he had that legendary takeover in the 2005 Finals against the Pistons where he turned into Michael Jordan to single-handedly win the key game.. And MJ never needed Pippen's playmaking anymore than Kobe needed it - put a guy like Derek Harper in for Paxson if that's an issue... Pippen simply wasn't that critical but he happened to land next to MJ, so his Iggy-caliber was inflated by the winning spotlight into top 50 status.

[Axe]

1-9

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

I reduced Peja to a worthless poster with dumb responses like Axe or Red1.. Not worth anyone's time.. It makes no sense to keep responding to someone that is simply responding to save face and reduced to dumb arguments or bs like And1AllDay

Ultimately, Lebron is a dumb ball-dominator with the worst chemistry or brand of ball ever and the biggest loser in NBA history (3-pt era) - he has perennial underdogs and losers regardless of cast - let that sink in.. His horrific record of producing underdogs shows that he would turn the 17' Warriors into underdogs just like he did with every cast that he ever had.. Any team that plays his garbage brand will be a perennial underdog - winning will be the EXCEPTION.

Peja said nothing to get me off these positions.. Our exchanges only strengthened all these positions because we got into the weeds and research always makes Lebron look worse and worse.


You were reduced to responding with non-responses, before eventually bowing out, of every thread I challenged you in when pressed for specifics. For the sake of posterity, let that be known as “the historical record”. Commiserations for the fact that these exchanges led to a lessened presence on this site for you. Tragic!

[WhiteKyrie]

5 star post

Horry agrees:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U-0etnOzIw&t=53s


I've always thought that the Bulls could've won earlier and easier if they replaced Pippen's historic bricklaying and lane-clogging with Horry's futuristic spacing and clutch - Horry hit 100 big shots to win 7 rings while Pippen hit 0 to win 6.. Pippen is 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' finals.. Horry was simply ahead of his time at spacing the floor and he had that legendary takeover in the 2005 Finals against the Pistons where he turned into Michael Jordan to single-handedly win the key game.. And MJ never needed Pippen's playmaking anymore than Kobe needed it - put a guy like Derek Harper in for Paxson if that's an issue... Pippen simply wasn't that critical but he happened to land next to MJ, so his Iggy-caliber was inflated by the winning spotlight into top 50 status.

What do you mean win earlier? Robert Horry was a rookie in 1993, when the Chicago Bulls were about to three peat for the first time.

Also, he’s delusional. Horry was a good player, Scottie Pippen was definitely better.

With that said, I actually think that would’ve made Chicago even better team if Scottie Pippen was traded for a combo of Horry and Cassell or Horry and Maxwell.

[3ba11]

What do you mean win earlier?

Robert Horry was a rookie in 1993, when the Chicago Bulls were about to three peat for the first time.






Rookie Horry............... starter and double-figure scoring
Rookie Pippen........,..... bench-warmer and 7.9 ppg

Sophomore Horry'........ 2nd-best player on title team & breakout clutch performer
Sophomore Pippen....... bum

3rd Year Horry'............ played better in Finals than Pippen ever played
3rd Year Pippen........... historic "migraine" choke cost MJ title


So MJ would've won earlier with Horry's key contributions and natural winning alpha mentality than a baby like Pippen that needed to be coddled for his entire career and carried in the clutch more than any notable player ever... Again, Horry himself vehemently agrees with me (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U-0etnOzIw&t=53s)

Btw, regarding your claim that Pippen lowered MJ's burden on defense - MJ didn't have a defensive burden after he developed the chemistry and culture of effort required for a great defensive team.. Once that happened, he could play the "rover" on defense which means do whatever he wanted.. A disproportionate number of the greatest steals and defensive plays ever come from the GOAT, while the culture of effort and chemistry allowed the Bulls to have better defensive teams WITHOUT mj in 94', or Horace in 95', or Pippen in 98'.

[Axe]

You were reduced to responding with non-responses, before eventually bowing out, of every thread I challenged you in when pressed for specifics. For the sake of posterity, let that be known as “the historical record”. Commiserations for the fact that these exchanges led to a lessened presence on this site for you. Tragic!
:oldlol:

[nayte]

And still, you're more concerned with his scoring in a thread YOU wrote about his defense. Kinda weird way to say you don't have a clue what you're talking about. He's literally in the argument for best perimeter defender ever. Let's try refuting that.

To be fair he almost didn't mention scoring in this reply to me till the last paragraph.lol
So close.. I don't really agree with it tho

[3ba11]

.
Pippen was outscored by all frontcourt players such as:



88' Nance (SF)
89' Newman (SF)
89'' Dantley (SF)
92' X-Man (SF)
93' Dominique (SF)
95' Johnson (SF)
96' Schrempf (SF)
97' Howard (SF)

90' Barkley (PF)
91' Barkley (PF)
93' Willis (PF)
93' Barkley (PF)
96' Kemp (PF)
97' Webber (PF)
97' Malone (PF)
98' Malone (PF)

88' Daughtery (C)
88' Laimbeer (C)
89' Daughtery (C)
92' Ewing (C)
93' Ewing (C)
95' Shaq (C)
96' Shaq (C)
96' Ewing (C)
97' Alonzo (C)



^^^ Pippen was getting destroyed by all frontcourt players, while Lebron's sidekicks outplay league MVP's like Curry, Jokic or Dirk and are expected to compete evenly with the best players in the league.

Even when Pippen would outscore someone like Rik Smits by 0.4 ppg (16.6 to 16.2), it's completely negated by westbrick efficiency and choking - Pippen's 2 missed FT's in Game 4 of the 98' ECF immediately preceded Miller's game-winner over MJ - it was one of many historic chokes for Pippen in his career - no one has worse clutch stats or more historic chokes than Pippen - this is statistical fact and the historical record.

In addition to getting outscored with worst-ever efficiency and choking, Pippen had a big advantage by being 1 of 2 scorers on the bulls, while the Cavs had a "big 4" of 20-point scorers in 1989.. Accordingly, even though Price and Daughtery were far superior scorers to Pippen, they would average slightly less because their had more scorers that needed to eat.. This is true of every contender the Bulls faced - every contender had far more scoring options.. Of course Pippen's westbrick efficiency and tendency to score in low-leverage minutes (mostly transition) more than makes up for the slight scoring deficit that opposing players would sometimes have against Pippen's transition and system points.

[3ba11]

.

Revised List of Pippen vs forwards or long wings


92' X-Man'............. 19 on 50% (3rd option)
92' Pippen............. 16 on 40%

92' Drexler............. 25 on 41%
92' Pippen'............. 21 on 48%

93' Dominique........ 30 on 44%
93' Willis'............... 18 on 44%
93' Pippen.............. 15 on 33%

93' Barkley............. 25 on 50%
93' Pippen.............. 20 on 43%

93' Dumas............. 16 on 57% (4th option)
93' Pippen'............. 21 on 44%

95' Johnson............ 21 on 48%
95' Pippen.............. 16 on 42%

96' Penny............... 26 on 47%
96' Pippen.............. 19 on 45%

96' Kemp............... 23 on 50%
96' Schrempf.......... 16 on 50% (3rd option)
96' Pippen.............. 16 on 34%

97' Howard............. 19 on 46%
97' Murray.............. 18 on 57% (4th option)
97' Pippen.............. 17 on 39%

97' Malone'............. 24 on 44%
97' Pippen.............. 19 on 42%

98' Rice.................. 23 on 44%
98' Pippen'.............. 18 on 44%

98' Malone'.............. 25 on 50%
98' Pippen............... 16 on 41%

99' Rice.................. 18 on 55% (3rd option)
99' Pippen'.............. 18 on 32%

91' Worthy'.............. 19 on 47% (injured)
91' Pippen............... 20 on 50%



^^^ From 91-99', Pippen was outscored by opposing forwards or long wings in 13 of 27 series and this scoring deficit was accompanied by worst-ever efficiency and massive lane-clogging/bricklaying, zero clutch or production in high-leverage minutes, low peak capability (not on scouting report according to Shaq - pip was a system or transition player that couldn't "go off" and didn't require game-planning), and he couldn't compete on the same level as the best players in the league (Barkley, Malone, etc) - he was never expected to play on the same level as Barkley or Malone and there were zero promos that said "Big forward matchup Pippen vs Barkley" because no one thought Pippen was on that top level - it wasn't even a consideration and would've been considered ABSURD to put Pippen anywhere near the top level players - see the numbers above that prove Pippen couldn't compete with the top players in the league and was usually outplayed by opposing forwards or long wings

[3ba11]

And still, you're more concerned with his scoring in a thread YOU wrote about his defense. He's literally in the argument for best perimeter defender ever. Let's try refuting that.


Everyone achieved their regular season numbers and efficiency vs Pippen, so he never locked anyone down as the primary defender and let all forwards and frontcourt positions outscore him - all of this deals specifically with his defense.

How do you refute these things or say that Pippen is in the argument for best perimeter defender in light of these things and all the numbers itt that show everyone going off on Pippen?.. it's absurd.. did you see all the guys that went off on pippen? who did he ever lock down?

Ultimately, Pippen let everyone go off and was destroyed by all frontcourt players, while Lebron's sidekicks outplay league MVP's like Curry, Jokic or Dirk - they're expected to compete evenly with the best players in the league, while Pippen was never expected to compete with Barkley or Malone and was well-known as a secondary producer/transition player/athlete/hustler - never a go-to player.. MJ won 6 chips with Iggy or Larry Nance as his sidekick, while Lebron needed elite-producing franchise players and "closers"

In addition to letting everyone go off, we know that individual defense is overrated since the Nuggets showed that great team defense is a function of chemistry and culture of effort - the 90's Bulls also showed this since their chemistry and effort allowed their defense to improve without MJ, Horace or Pippen in 94', 95', and 98', respectively.. So individual defense isn't even a real factor, which makes Pippen even more overrated.

[Axe]

And still, you're more concerned with his scoring in a thread YOU wrote about his defense. Kinda weird way to say you don't have a clue what you're talking about. He's literally in the argument for best perimeter defender ever. Let's try refuting that.
:yaohappy: