AI has its top 25 list (not that AI)

[elementally morale]

Here is the list:

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabaar
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10. Wilt Chamberlain
11. Bill Russell
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Karl Malone
14. Jerry West
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Moses Malone
17. Kevin Durant
18. Elgin Baylor
19. David Robinson
20. Charles Barkley
21. Scottie Pippen
22. Isiah Thomas
23. Kevin Garnett
24. Stephen Curry
25. John Stockton


Russell is too low. Curry is too low, Karl Malone is too high. Durant a bit high Nowitzki is debatable but too high for me. No Garnett is surprising, especially with Dirk being at #15. No. 6 to 9 are interchangeable for me.

Source:
https://clutchpoints.com/the-top-25-all-time-players-in-nba-history-according-to-chatgpt?/

Sorry if it has been posted earlier. I didn't see a thread but I may be mistaken.

[SouBeachTalents]

I wonder why AI rates Wilt & Russell so low.

[Wardell Curry]

AI can't currently watch the games and it can't currently evaluate context. It can only catch the data it is given, be that on a spreadsheet or the millions of ignorant opinions online.

Objective truth with such a thing is almost impossible to determine for a multitude of reasons.

[elementally morale]

AI can't currently watch the games and it can't currently evaluate context. It can only catch the data it is given, be that on a spreadsheet or the millions of ignorant opinions online.

Objective truth with such a thing is almost impossible to determine for a multitude of reasons.

Objective truth is quite impossible anyway. I didn't post it because I think it is true. It is just something AI 'thinks' right now. It' no worse than the average ISH take though.

[Im Still Ballin]

Not a bad list all things considered. I like Magic and Bird being high; I don't like Bill Russell and Wilt being so low. I also think Timmy could be bumped up one, two, or even three spots. Durant shouldn't be above Curry.

[Wardell Curry]

Chamberlain, Russell, Curry, Duncan are all probably too low. James & Jordan are probably too high.

[RRR3]

Here is the list:

1. Michael Jordan yeah
2. LeBron James yeah
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabaar yeah
4. Magic Johnson too high
5. Larry Bird too high
6. Shaquille O'Neal yeah
7. Hakeem Olajuwon yeah
8. Kobe Bryant too high
9. Tim Duncan yeah
10. Wilt Chamberlain too low
11. Bill Russell idk he’s hard to rank
12. Oscar Robertson sure
13. Karl Malone too high
14. Jerry West ok
15. Dirk Nowitzki too high
16. Moses Malone too high
17. Kevin Durant ok
18. Elgin Baylor too high
19. David Robinson ok
20. Charles Barkley ok
21. Scottie Pippen too high
22. Isiah Thomas much too high
23. Kevin Garnett too low
24. Stephen Curry way too low
25. John Stockton eh


Russell is too low. Curry is too low, Karl Malone is too high. Durant a bit high Nowitzki is debatable but too high for me. No Garnett is surprising, especially with Dirk being at #15. No. 6 to 9 are interchangeable for me.

Source:
https://clutchpoints.com/the-top-25-all-time-players-in-nba-history-according-to-chatgpt?/

Sorry if it has been posted earlier. I didn't see a thread but I may be mistaken.
Thoughts in bold

[FultzNationRISE]

Lebron is way too low.

[elementally morale]

Lebron is way too low.

You may think he is either zero or negative then. Interesting concept.

[John8204]

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabaar
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10. Wilt Chamberlain
11. Bill Russell
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Karl Malone
14. Jerry West
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Moses Malone
17. Kevin Durant
18. Elgin Baylor
19. David Robinson
20. Charles Barkley
21. Scottie Pippen
22. Isiah Thomas
23. Kevin Garnett
24. Stephen Curry
25. John Stockton

So if they did generational rankings....
50's - nobody
60's - Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, Baylor
70's - KAJ
80's - Magic, Bird, Moses, Isiah
90's - Jordan, Hakeem, Karl, Robinson, Barkley, Scottie, Stockton
00's - Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Dirk, KG
10's - Lebron, Durant, Curry

That's a bad list.....Shaq is the biggest problem he's closer to KG and Dirk than Kobe and Duncan and he's behind Hakeem (who is still pretty high).

Curry is better than Durant.

Stockton should be ahead of Karl Malone, Dave Robinson, and Charles Barkley

Pippen and Thomas don't belong on this list...Isiah is behind Paul, Frazier, and Kidd while Pippen should be behind Julius Erving John Havlicek and Rick Barry.

George Mikan and Bob Pettit should also be in the top twentyfive

[ArbitraryWater]

I dont know about Dirk behind Malone or Oscar or even Kobe, but looks solid.

[3ba11]

Even AI is fooled by the winning spotlight apparently

I think it's based on who is in the news like Pippen seeing the love of his life getting with Jordan

[Wardell Curry]

Even AI is fooled by the winning spotlight apparently

Yeah I agree Jordan hype is way too much and it fooled the AI.

[3ba11]

Yeah I agree Jordan hype is way too much and it fooled the AI.


Jordan has the stats and dominance to back up the winning - his #1 ranking in all the production rate stats (PER, WS, PPG, etc etc) yielded the highest team ceilings ever (6/6)

[Wardell Curry]

Jordan has the stats and dominance to back up the winning - his #1 ranking in all the production rate stats (PER, WS, PPG, etc etc) yielded the highest team ceilings ever (6/6)

Highest team success = Bill Russell. Jordan only reached the Finals 6 times.

[JohnMax]

Lebron will be GOAT by 2025 when he wins two more championships.

[L.Kizzle]

How is KD almost 10 spots over Steph?
Scottie Pippen seems to get higher and higher on these list as the years go by. Like the Reggie Miller effect. He use to be in the 30 and 40s on list 15-20 years ago. Now he's borderline top 20 and has jumped players like Dr J and Havlicek (just at his position alone.)

[fsvr54]

Karl Malone is not top 15

[Im Still Ballin]

How is KD almost 10 spots over Steph?
Scottie Pippen seems to get higher and higher on these list as the years go by. Like the Reggie Miller effect. He use to be in the 30 and 40s on list 15-20 years ago. Now he's borderline top 20 and has jumped players like Dr J and Havlicek (just at his position alone.)

Things do change with time, don't they? 20-30+ years ago, Kareem wasn't looked upon like he is now: a consensus top-three guy. There was a thread about it here; he was more in that 5th to 8th range I think. Bird and Magic were stronger than many think of them now.

[Axe]

I see kobe's a bit high.

[L.Kizzle]

Things do change with time, don't they? 20-30+ years ago, Kareem wasn't looked upon like he is now: a consensus top-three guy. There was a thread about it here; he was more in that 5th to 8th range I think. Bird and Magic were stronger than many think of them now.
Kareem has always been around the 3-8 mark for like ever.
I missed the thread, is it recent? Seems like him and Wilt kind of flip flopped. But it's nowhere near Scotties uphill climb.

[Jasper]

bron is way to high ... 4 chips i hav him at 6 one below shaq

these lists are so arbitrary

[RRR3]

bron is way to high ... 4 chips i hav him at 6 one below shaq

these lists are so arbitrary
No one cares what your retarded ass thinks tho

[ILLsmak]

I wonder why AI rates Wilt & Russell so low.

FG% prol lol tbh. It's probably way too complex a formula like decade to decade, and that's why a guy like Robinson got on there with sexy stats. No real difference in value for rings, or maybe some weird advanced stats. Wilt and Russell have to have super trash fg% by all of the advanced metrics cuz they were also not good at FT shooting. But you'd think stuff like... leading the league in assists or getting 30 rebounds a game would get you somewhere.

AI is actually dumb. It's like we're just figuring this out. AI is just some pathway for numbers to go thru when you press 'enter.'

Edit: or worse, it's trying to take into account stuff like who is most talked about, sports articles etc... ugh.

Edit2:


Things do change with time, don't they? 20-30+ years ago, Kareem wasn't looked upon like he is now: a consensus top-three guy. There was a thread about it here; he was more in that 5th to 8th range I think. Bird and Magic were stronger than many think of them now.

You usually saw Kareem at 2. Points leader, Major rings. Ring on his own. Dynasty team. Even tho it doesn't count, he was also such a monster in college that it carries over.

-Smak

[IllegalD]

If you knew anything about ChatGPT you would know that you could post the same question multiple times and it will give you slightly varied lists/orders each time.

[Wally450]

Plug Russell at 4, and push the others back a spot, that's my top 7.

[kawhileonard2]

Lebron is way too low.

Wayy too high, considering a guy in his own era has as many titles in less years and beat him head to head more. Not to mention Lebron won bronze multiple times and missed the playoffs as much as titles won.

[kawhileonard2]

Lebron will be GOAT by 2025 when he wins two more championships.

OK dude has 4 titles in 20 years and missed the playoffs 4 times in 20 years despite stacking the deck.

[GOBB]

I wonder why AI rates Wilt & Russell so low.

He didn’t see them. Most of the people above them he saw. And out of respect he placed those two there given their feats/accolades etc. I make a top 10 list Wilt is on it but Bill Russell is not.

[Im Still Ballin]

He didn’t see them. Most of the people above them he saw. And out of respect he placed those two there given their feats/accolades etc. I make a top 10 list Wilt is on it but Bill Russell is not.

AI = artificial intelligence. Not Allen Iverson.

[8Ball]

bron is way to high ... 4 chips i hav him at 6 one below shaq

these lists are so arbitrary

Championships are team accomplishments, so why rank players using chips as the #1 criteria? You do know there are half a dozen players with more chips than Jordan.

[Baller234]

Championships are team accomplishments, so why rank players using chips as the #1 criteria? You do know there are half a dozen players with more chips than Jordan.

It's not just the number of rings, it's the manner in how you win them.

When the Lakers won back to back in the 80's it was considered a huge deal because it was a feat not accomplished since the 60's Celtics.

Jordan led the Bulls to win 3 in a row and he did it without star veterans. He was drafted to a bottom feeding franchise and turned them into a dynasty with nothing but home grown talent. No other player in history has ever embodied the definition of a franchise player like that. They simply drafted Jordan and the rest was history.

Then MJ retires, comes back and wins 3 in a row again.

The level of dominance was just other worldly, and it's not like the Bulls were this stacked superteam. They were a great team sure but without Jordan they are a middle of the pack playoff team. WITH Jordan they were an unstoppable juggernaut.

This is not even a discussion really. Lebron will never come close to this.

[Wardell Curry]

AI = artificial intelligence. Not Allen Iverson.

:roll:

[8Ball]

It's not just the number of rings, it's the manner in how you win them.

When the Lakers won back to back in the 80's it was considered a huge deal because it was a feat not accomplished since the 60's Celtics.

Jordan led the Bulls to win 3 in a row and he did it without star veterans. He was drafted to a bottom feeding franchise and turned them into a dynasty with nothing but home grown talent. No other player in history has ever embodied the definition of a franchise player like that. They simply drafted Jordan and the rest was history.

Then MJ retires, comes back and wins 3 in a row again.

The level of dominance was just other worldly, and it's not like the Bulls were this stacked superteam. They were a great team sure but without Jordan they are a middle of the pack playoff team. WITH Jordan they were an unstoppable juggernaut.

This is not even a discussion really. Lebron will never come close to this.

The rings argument has been disputed so many times.

If you apply the same intellectual honesty regarding "rings", than every single Jordan "rings" argument has to yield to Bill Russell. Because Bill Russell not only led his team to the championships, he did it 11x, nearly 2x as many as Jordan, and was the most valuable player on his team. But none of you apply the same standard to Bill Russell. You change it around. "Well Jordan was better than Russell". Not shit Jordan was a better basketball player than Jordan, that's why we don't put Russell above Jordan.

Jordan retired in 1993, and his team won 55 games in 1994. That's the team Jordan came back to. Hardly rebuilding on a crap team.

And then we talk about competition. What finals opponent did Jordan face in the 90s? If Jordan had won 6 rings in the 80s when there were super teams all over the place, Philly / Detroit / Lakers / Celtics all in their prime, then his rings would be more impressive than the rings he won in the 90s.

Jordan has never faced a team in the finals as good as the 2012 OKC, and that was one of the weaker finals opponents LeBron ran up against.

LeBron's championship win in 2013 and 2016 are far superior to any championship Jordan has won.



Now moving on from championships, LeBron is simply a superior player. Similar peak play yet Bran was able to maintain a much longer longevity, 20 straight years, and 19 good years vs Jordan's 12 good years.

[Baller234]

@8Ball

I don't think the number of rings is the be all and end all. I said it was the manner in which they were won. I'm not saying Jordan is better than Lebron because he has 6 and Lebron has 4, it's how Jordan won his 6.

Bill Russell was the greatest of his time, and yes it can be argued that he dominated his era like no other player has, but he also got drafted to a team that was already home to some of the league's top tier stars. He was also lucky enough to play for an innovative genius like Red Auerbach who was light years ahead of every other head coach. Jordan might have won out of the gate too if he got to play with all-stars his first few years and a championship level coach. I mean he already proved he was a winner in college and also during the 84 olympics. He definitely could have been the missing ingredient a good team needed to become a great team, like Russell was.

But Jordan wasn't drafted to a good team, he was drafted to a horrible team. The winning culture needed to be built organically and over time. Talent needed to be developed. Different coaching strategies would need to be employed and experimented with. A last place team doesn't become champions overnight, it takes time.

In 1987 they acquire Pippen and Grant. MJ finally has his dogs. The very next year they're in the conference finals. All Jordan needed was two young and hungry pups at his side to turn his team into a final four title contender. Pippen and Grant were good prospects but I don't think anyone could have envisioned that they would have the careers that they did. They probably aren't multi time champions if they don't play with Jordan and develop under Jordan.

Then of course they acquire Phil Jackson in 1989, now they have the right coach. A big part of that has to do with Jordan too though because unlike a lot of diva superstars today, he actually allowed himself to be coached. He may have been the biggest superstar in the league but at the end of the day he had no choice but to buy into Phil & Tex's system.

So by the 1989-90 season, you could argue that Jordan finally had what Russell had from the moment he entered the league. An experienced playoff team with a good system and a good coach, only he didn't have anywhere near the talent. And what do you know, from that point on the Bulls dominated the fu*king league.

Now if you want to talk about competition, and how Lebron played against superior competition, that argument is two fold because that would mean Lebron's teams were also superior to Jordan's teams. Jordan never had the luxury of playing alongside the kind of offensive firepower that Lebron had during his championship runs. Lebron usually had 1-2 other star players as well as shooters spreading the floor in every direction. So yea the teams Jordan faced in the 90's weren't technically as good as the teams Lebron faced, but no teams from the 90's would be able to hang today by that same logic. The 90's teams weren't built to play against teams 20 years into the future.

[8Ball]

@8Ball

I don't think the number of rings is the be all and end all. I said it was the manner in which they were won. I'm not saying Jordan is better than Lebron because he has 6 and Lebron has 4, it's how Jordan won his 6.

Bill Russell was the greatest of his time, and yes it can be argued that he dominated his era like no other player has, but he also got drafted to a team that was already home to some of the league's top tier stars. He was also lucky enough to play for an innovative genius like Red Auerbach who was light years ahead of every other head coach. Jordan might have won out of the gate too if he got to play with all-stars his first few years and a championship level coach. I mean he already proved he was a winner in college and also during the 84 olympics. He definitely could have been the missing ingredient a good team needed to become a great team, like Russell was.

But Jordan wasn't drafted to a good team, he was drafted to a horrible team. The winning culture needed to be built organically and over time. Talent needed to be developed. Different coaching strategies would need to be employed and experimented with. A last place team doesn't become champions overnight, it takes time.


Your Jordan vs Russell argument regarding rings makes no sense.

You boil down your "rings" argument to Jordan being drafted to a bad team, and then finally getting good players and winning 6 rings. And that is somehow more valuable than Bill Russell winning 11 rings with his already great cast.

So according to you Jordan winning "rings" when he had dogs in the 90s is somehow >>> than Bill Russell winning rings when he himself had dogs from the beginning.

Be consistent. You can't go from "Jordan has 6 rings > LeBron has 4" -> "Jordan has 6 rings > Bill Russell has 11, but Jordan was drafted to a bad team".


For the record, I think Jordan >>>>>>> Bill Russell and its not even close. That's why the rings argument doesn't make sense after both players have won a few already. We have to dive deeper.






In 1987 they acquire Pippen and Grant. MJ finally has his dogs. The very next year they're in the conference finals. All Jordan needed was two young and hungry pups at his side to turn his team into a final four title contender. Pippen and Grant were good prospects but I don't think anyone could have envisioned that they would have the careers that they did. They probably aren't multi time champions if they don't play with Jordan and develop under Jordan.

Then of course they acquire Phil Jackson in 1989, now they have the right coach. A big part of that has to do with Jordan too though because unlike a lot of diva superstars today, he actually allowed himself to be coached. He may have been the biggest superstar in the league but at the end of the day he had no choice but to buy into Phil & Tex's system.

So by the 1989-90 season, you could argue that Jordan finally had what Russell had from the moment he entered the league. An experienced playoff team with a good system and a good coach, only he didn't have anywhere near the talent. And what do you know, from that point on the Bulls dominated the fu*king league.

Jordan finally had what Russell had yet only won 6 vs Russell's 11. This is why the rings argument falls flat on its face after both players have won a couple.


People don't say Jordan > Bill Russell because Jordan has 6 rings being drafted to a shitty team. People say Jordan > Russell because Jordan is simply a better player than Russell is + won a couple of rings.



Jordan also nearly torpedoed his entire Bulls future when he wanted the Bulls to draft Joe Wolf instead of Pippen and Horace Grant.



Now if you want to talk about competition, and how Lebron played against superior competition, that argument is two fold because that would mean Lebron's teams were also superior to Jordan's teams. Jordan never had the luxury of playing alongside the kind of offensive firepower that Lebron had during his championship runs. Lebron usually had 1-2 other star players as well as shooters spreading the floor in every direction. So yea the teams Jordan faced in the 90's weren't technically as good as the teams Lebron faced, but no teams from the 90's would be able to hang today by that same logic. The 90's teams weren't built to play against teams 20 years into the future.

Jordan would never ever take LeBron's spot and go up against those Spurs / Warriors dynasties with the cast LeBron had. He would take his cast and go up against the 90s finals competition. Much easier road to more champsionships.

[8Ball]

Baller234 - I appreciate your post by the way, no flaming and thoughtful :cheers:. That's why I responded in kind with no flames of my own.

[Patrick Chewing]

It's not just the number of rings, it's the manner in how you win them.

When the Lakers won back to back in the 80's it was considered a huge deal because it was a feat not accomplished since the 60's Celtics.

Jordan led the Bulls to win 3 in a row and he did it without star veterans. He was drafted to a bottom feeding franchise and turned them into a dynasty with nothing but home grown talent. No other player in history has ever embodied the definition of a franchise player like that. They simply drafted Jordan and the rest was history.

Then MJ retires, comes back and wins 3 in a row again.

The level of dominance was just other worldly, and it's not like the Bulls were this stacked superteam. They were a great team sure but without Jordan they are a middle of the pack playoff team. WITH Jordan they were an unstoppable juggernaut.

This is not even a discussion really. Lebron will never come close to this.

And even without the rings, Jordan was always the best player on the court. So rings or no rings, Jordan is the GOAT. The scoring, the highlights, the dunks, the impeccable defense, the game winners. Watching your team lose to Jordan each and every time in the 90's was just demoralizing as a fan. Celebrating when he retired cause you at least had a chance. No other player in the history of the game has made a fan feel that way.

[LLL3]

No one cares what your retarded ass thinks tho

I don't even like Jasper but don't be talking to your elders like that boy. You can't talk to everyone like you do your mom when she forgets to cut the crusts off your toast. Don't get mad. Consider it good advice. It will save you getting that mop on your head blown back with a nasty punch someday

[Patrick Chewing]

I don't even like Jasper but don't be talking to your elders like that boy. You can't talk to everyone like you do your mom when she forgets to cut the crusts off your toast. Don't get mad. Consider it good advice. It will save you getting that mop on your head blown back with a nasty punch someday

:roll:

[8Ball]

And even without the rings, Jordan was always the best player on the court. So rings or no rings, Jordan is the GOAT. The scoring, the highlights, the dunks, the impeccable defense, the game winners. Watching your team lose to Jordan each and every time in the 90's was just demoralizing as a fan. Celebrating when he retired cause you at least had a chance. No other player in the history of the game has made a fan feel that way.

This is nostalgia talking.

Bill Russell sure as hell made every single Laker fan in the 60s feel that way, and even more.

[rmt]

I wonder which Durant lover/Curry hater fed the data into this machine.

[kawhileonard2]

The rings argument has been disputed so many times.

If you apply the same intellectual honesty regarding "rings", than every single Jordan "rings" argument has to yield to Bill Russell. Because Bill Russell not only led his team to the championships, he did it 11x, nearly 2x as many as Jordan, and was the most valuable player on his team. But none of you apply the same standard to Bill Russell. You change it around. "Well Jordan was better than Russell". Not shit Jordan was a better basketball player than Jordan, that's why we don't put Russell above Jordan.

Jordan retired in 1993, and his team won 55 games in 1994. That's the team Jordan came back to. Hardly rebuilding on a crap team.

And then we talk about competition. What finals opponent did Jordan face in the 90s? If Jordan had won 6 rings in the 80s when there were super teams all over the place, Philly / Detroit / Lakers / Celtics all in their prime, then his rings would be more impressive than the rings he won in the 90s.

Jordan has never faced a team in the finals as good as the 2012 OKC, and that was one of the weaker finals opponents LeBron ran up against.

LeBron's championship win in 2013 and 2016 are far superior to any championship Jordan has won.



Now moving on from championships, LeBron is simply a superior player. Similar peak play yet Bran was able to maintain a much longer longevity, 20 straight years, and 19 good years vs Jordan's 12 good years.

Lebron has missed the playoffs as much as titles won. Won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him. Jordan has more accolades than anyone despite playing less years. He also has more league, finals mvp and titles than anyone when you add them up. He has 17 and the next has 16.

[kawhileonard2]

This is nostalgia talking.

Bill Russell sure as hell made every single Laker fan in the 60s feel that way, and even more.

Bill Russell joined a team that had the league mvp winner and ROY over him. Also only had to win 2 series to get a title. From 1985 onward you had to win 4 series to get a title.

[Baller234]

Jordan would never ever take LeBron's spot and go up against those Spurs / Warriors dynasties with the cast LeBron had. He would take his cast and go up against the 90s finals competition. Much easier road to more champsionships.

Like I said this totally isn't fair and it doesn't even help your argument. Every team is built better now compared to the 90's. Even the average role player has a much deeper skill set. You can't acknowledge that Lebron faced better teams than Jordan without also acknowledging that he played on better teams too.

If Jordan played in this era and had Lebron's teammates, whose to say he couldn't beat those Spurs or those Warriors? The guy was unstoppable. In today's game he would be even more unstoppable. If he's playing with multiple star teammates and a roster full of shooters, who's beating him?

[Axe]

Championships are team accomplishments, so why rank players using chips as the #1 criteria? You do know there are half a dozen players with more chips than Jordan.
Like robert horry. But as usual, braindead casuals are clueless about this. :confusedshrug:

[8Ball]

Like I said this totally isn't fair and it doesn't even help your argument. Every team is built better now compared to the 90's. Even the average role player has a much deeper skill set. You can't acknowledge that Lebron faced better teams than Jordan without also acknowledging that he played on better teams too.

If Jordan played in this era and had Lebron's teammates, whose to say he couldn't beat those Spurs or those Warriors? The guy was unstoppable. In today's game he would be even more unstoppable. If he's playing with multiple star teammates and a roster full of shooters, who's beating him?

Jordan was so unstoppable that he was stopped repeatedly in the 80s and in 1995 and at the same age LeBron is now didn't even make the playoffs on the Wizards.


LeBron averaged 33/12/10 on 56% against the Warriors in 2017 and somehow, Jordan would have done even more? My ass.


Jordan with that 2018 Cavs team would have taken down the Warriors? You don't even remember the 8 man rotation of that 2018 Cavs team without googling.

[FultzNationRISE]

An AI doesnt evaluate players using its own criteria, this is basically just an amalgam of human lists that exist online, weighted by which sources are deemed most credible by the AI’s program.

[ILLsmak]

Jordan was so unstoppable that he was stopped repeatedly in the 80s and in 1995 and at the same age LeBron is now didn't even make the playoffs on the Wizards.


LeBron averaged 33/12/10 on 56% against the Warriors in 2017 and somehow, Jordan would have done even more? My ass.


Jordan with that 2018 Cavs team would have taken down the Warriors? You don't even remember the 8 man rotation of that 2018 Cavs team without googling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZJUFtO5hNQ

can't hate on this tho.

Edit: altho that foul at the end haha of regulation. Aiye.

-Smak

[8Ball]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZJUFtO5hNQ

can't hate on this tho.

Edit: altho that foul at the end haha of regulation. Aiye.

-Smak

Against the great 1986 Celtics, Jordan got 49 in game 1 lost. 63 in game 2 lost. And went back down to earth with 19 points in a game 3 loss.

That's not enough to beat 2017 Warriors or 2018. Not a chance.

[Baller234]

Jordan was so unstoppable that he was stopped repeatedly in the 80s and in 1995 and at the same age LeBron is now didn't even make the playoffs on the Wizards.


LeBron averaged 33/12/10 on 56% against the Warriors in 2017 and somehow, Jordan would have done even more? My ass.


Jordan with that 2018 Cavs team would have taken down the Warriors? You don't even remember the 8 man rotation of that 2018 Cavs team without googling.

I thought you were arguing in good faith but now it looks like you aren't. We were explicitly talking about a hypothetical scenario in which MJ played in the modern era alongside multiple stars and a roster full of shooters like Lebron did.

And yea, MJ is on another level from Lebron when it comes to scoring the basketball so it only makes sense that he would score more points. You shouldn't really be shocked by this. The greatest scorer ever is obviously going to have an easier time scoring in today's game. Look at what f*cking Jamal Murray and Devon Booker did in the playoffs.

Jordan would be the most unstoppable guy in the league, hands down. Sorry.

[ILLsmak]

Against the great 1986 Celtics, Jordan got 49 in game 1 lost. 63 in game 2 lost. And went back down to earth with 19 points in a game 3 loss.

That's not enough to beat 2017 Warriors or 2018. Not a chance.

Nah, not saying he would have won the series (but maybe more games?) I'm saying it was remarkable to put up numbers like that vs one of the greatest teams of all time. If you are an underdog, MJ is just the more valuable player to have. That's why he's the GOAT. The fact that he kept that level of scoring ability but used it correctly as he got into championship age is more important than you think. MJ was fkn nuts. Anyone who is seriously saying Bron is GOAT over MJ is out of their damn mind. That's just 100. And yea MJ was hyped, and he got calls, but still... so did Bron. MJ just better. It's not a debate. It could have been a legacy debate had things gone a little diff for Bron, but talent wise, it's just not. Refresh yourself with some vids of MJ. I was just watching the other day, as I said, and it was like... man. You almost forget.

-Smak

[8Ball]

I thought you were arguing in good faith but now it looks like you aren't. We were explicitly talking about a hypothetical scenario in which MJ played in the modern era alongside multiple stars and a roster full of shooters like Lebron did.

And yea, MJ is on another level from Lebron when it comes to scoring the basketball so it only makes sense that he would score more points. You shouldn't really be shocked by this. The greatest scorer ever is obviously going to have an easier time scoring in today's game. Look at what f*cking Jamal Murray and Devon Booker did in the playoffs.

Jordan would be the most unstoppable guy in the league, hands down. Sorry.

You actually think Jordan on the 2017 pr 2018 Cavs is beating the 2017 Warriors or the 2018 Warriors. Come on.

Not even I would say LeBron would beat the 1986 Celtics with that 1986 Bulls roster.

[8Ball]

Nah, not saying he would have won the series (but maybe more games?) I'm saying it was remarkable to put up numbers like that vs one of the greatest teams of all time. If you are an underdog, MJ is just the more valuable player to have. That's why he's the GOAT. The fact that he kept that level of scoring ability but used it correctly as he got into championship age is more important than you think. MJ was fkn nuts. Anyone who is seriously saying Bron is GOAT over MJ is out of their damn mind. That's just 100. And yea MJ was hyped, and he got calls, but still... so did Bron. MJ just better. It's not a debate. It could have been a legacy debate had things gone a little diff for Bron, but talent wise, it's just not. Refresh yourself with some vids of MJ. I was just watching the other day, as I said, and it was like... man. You almost forget.

-Smak

Paul Pierce and KG just did a few months ago. They crazy?



Talent wise?

I don't see a more talented player in the history of the game than LeBron when talent also includes passing / rebounding / floor general / versatility / combined with high scoring.

[Xiao Yao You]

Most talented maybe? GOAT no

[dankok8]

You actually think Jordan on the 2017 pr 2018 Cavs is beating the 2017 Warriors or the 2018 Warriors. Come on.

Not even I would say LeBron would beat the 1986 Celtics with that 1986 Bulls roster.

You're not objective.

It's not that Lebron is 4-6 in the finals. And it's not that Jordan would be 10-0 in Lebron's place. He almost surely wouldn't be and wouldn't need to be but he would be like 6-4. And the four losses would be more competitive than they were with Lebron.

Jordan pushes 2007 to 6 games instead of getting swept. Any Bulls Jordan >> 2007 Lebron.

Jordan wins 2011. Absolutely no argument.

Jordan likely wins 2014. People declared the Spurs an unbeatable juggernaut after the fact. They went to 7 with Dallas and 6 with OKC. The bookies considered the series a toss-up. Despite the nice scoring stats, Lebron was terrible the last three games and did nothing on defense.

Jordan matches Lebron in 2015. This is Lebron's best losing finals.

Jordan pushes 2017 to 7 games but likely comes up a bit short. The Warriors weren't huge favorites prior to the series. But Jordan flipping the result here isn't impossible.

Jordan pushes 2018 to 6 games but loses. The Cavs were worse but the 2018 Warriors weren't nearly as good as the 2017 version.

Jordan also likely wins 2013, 2016 and 2020 Finals by bigger margins than Lebron. Lebron was terrible in the first few games in both 2013 and 2016. And 2020 losing two games to that awful Heat team shouldn't have happened.

[Baller234]

I don't know why 8Ball thinks it would be impossible for a Jordan led team to come out on top. Even the KD super warriors of 2018 got pushed to 7 games by CP3 & Harden.

Give MJ any compatible star player and a capable roster of shooters and nobody is beating them today. I don't care how many stars the other team has. Maybe if they were a legit dream team with 5 top ballers.

Jordan led teams always played lockdown defense, but at the end of the day the other team doesn't have an answer for Jordan in an era where it's even easier for players like him to score.

[dankok8]

Oh and by the way, Jordan or anyone else wasn't a clearly better player than Russell. Russell dominated his era like no other. In those times, having a defensive big that protects the rim was BY FAR the most valuable asset and Russell was incredibly dominant on defense. Wilt and Oscar had better stats but Russell was more impactful than both of them.

[8Ball]

I don't know why 8Ball thinks it would be impossible for a Jordan led team to come out on top. Even the KD super warriors of 2018 got pushed to 7 games by CP3 & Harden.

Give MJ any compatible star player and a capable roster of shooters and nobody is beating them today. I don't care how many stars the other team has. Maybe if they were a legit dream team with 5 top ballers.

Jordan led teams always played lockdown defense, but at the end of the day the other team doesn't have an answer for Jordan in an era where it's even easier for players like him to score.


Yeah ok. Jordan did lose in 1995 when he lacked rebounding when Horace Grant wasn't there.


And today's era is all about 3 point shooting, I'm thinking you believe Jordan is an elite 3 point shooter right?


You will do mental hoops in your head in the next post to convince yourself that Jordan was an elite 3 point shooter.

[Baller234]

Oh and by the way, Jordan or anyone else wasn't a clearly better player than Russell. Russell dominated his era like no other. In those times, having a defensive big that protects the rim was BY FAR the most valuable asset and Russell was incredibly dominant on defense. Wilt and Oscar had better stats but Russell was more impactful than both of them.

Russell was the greatest of his time, but you can't say he's the greatest of ALL time because like you said his skillset wouldn't be as valued in all eras. There's zero chance he would have that same kind of impact on the game once teams started incorporating more outside shooting.

We've seen a lot of great defensive players since Russell, but I don't even remember the last time someone was considered the best or most valuable player in the league just purely off defense. Meanwhile Jordan's greatness translates no matter the rules and no matter the era. I know it's not fair because Jordan emerged in the 80's and Russell played in the 60's, but it's still the truth.

[8Ball]

You're not objective.

It's not that Lebron is 4-6 in the finals. And it's not that Jordan would be 10-0 in Lebron's place. He almost surely wouldn't be and wouldn't need to be but he would be like 6-4. And the four losses would be more competitive than they were with Lebron.

Jordan pushes 2007 to 6 games instead of getting swept. Any Bulls Jordan >> 2007 Lebron.

Jordan wins 2011. Absolutely no argument.

Jordan likely wins 2014. People declared the Spurs an unbeatable juggernaut after the fact. They went to 7 with Dallas and 6 with OKC. The bookies considered the series a toss-up. Despite the nice scoring stats, Lebron was terrible the last three games and did nothing on defense.

Jordan matches Lebron in 2015. This is Lebron's best losing finals.

Jordan pushes 2017 to 7 games but likely comes up a bit short. The Warriors weren't huge favorites prior to the series. But Jordan flipping the result here isn't impossible.

Jordan pushes 2018 to 6 games but loses. The Cavs were worse but the 2018 Warriors weren't nearly as good as the 2017 version.

Jordan also likely wins 2013, 2016 and 2020 Finals by bigger margins than Lebron. Lebron was terrible in the first few games in both 2013 and 2016. And 2020 losing two games to that awful Heat team shouldn't have happened.

Loses in 2007.

Win in 2011.

With an injured Bosh and lack of size in the interior, Jordan does not go as far in the EC in 2012. Gets knocked out in EC playoffs in 2012.

Most likely wins in 2013.

I don't see him winning 2014 with Wade and Bosh completely spent.

Loses in 2015.

Jordan does not beat the Warriors in 2016.

Loses in 2017.

Loses in 2018. Probably doesn't even make the finals in 2018 with that roster.

Wins in 2020.

So we have 4 championships with 1 less finals appearance in 2018.

[Baller234]

Yeah ok. Jordan did lose in 1995 when he lacked rebounding when Horace Grant wasn't there.


And today's era is all about 3 point shooting, I'm thinking you believe Jordan is an elite 3 point shooter right?


You will do mental hoops in your head in the next post to convince yourself that Jordan was an elite 3 point shooter.

Jordan couldn't shoot threes? Are you forgetting he made 6 threes in the first half of an NBA Finals game?

https://media2.giphy.com/media/l3q2JCu9lep6dAmyY/giphy.gif

And even if he couldn't, why would it matter? Zion doesn't shoot threes but while he's on the court it frees up everyone else because he's so dominant. Same with Giannis. They don't have to shoot threes, they just need to be surrounded by people who can shoot threes. Zion was putting up 26 a game last season, Giannis put up 31. Neither of them shoot threes.

Jordan was more unstoppable than both of those guys.

[8Ball]

Jordan couldn't shoot threes? Are you forgetting he made 6 threes in the first half of an NBA Finals game?

https://media2.giphy.com/media/l3q2JCu9lep6dAmyY/giphy.gif

And even if he couldn't, why would it matter? Zion doesn't shoot threes but while he's on the court it frees up everyone else because he's so dominant. Same with Giannis. They don't have to shoot threes, they just need to be surrounded by people who can shoot threes. Zion was putting up 26 a game last season, Giannis put up 31. Neither of them shoot threes.

Jordan was more unstoppable than both of those guys.

1 game?

LeBron is a career 3 point shooter at 34.5%, not even LeBron stans would say that LeBron is a good 3 point shooter, he's mediocre compared to today's talent. Bran would probably be really good 3 point shooter in the 90s :lol. And Jordan is at 30% with current 3 point line and you stans call him a good 3 point shooter. The delusion.


Zion Williamson is 300 lbs and won't even make all-nba team. He only dominates because he is super strong, but since he's too big, he can't stay on the court without getting injured.


Giannis is 7 feet, Jordan isn't.

[Baller234]

1 game?

LeBron is a career 3 point shooter at 34.5%, not even LeBron stans would say that LeBron is a good 3 point shooter, he's mediocre compared to today's talent. Bran would probably be really good 3 point shooter in the 90s :lol. And Jordan is at 30% with current 3 point line and you stans call him a good 3 point shooter. The delusion.


Zion Williamson is 300 lbs and won't even make all-nba team. He only dominates because he is super strong, but since he's too big, he can't stay on the court without getting injured.


Giannis is 7 feet, Jordan isn't.

Oh, I get it. You're 20 years old and you didn't watch Jordan play.

Why didn't you say so.

[8Ball]

Oh, I get it. You're 20 years old and you didn't watch Jordan play.

Why didn't you say so.

50% was the first year of shortened NBA line, as well as 1996 and 1997. Remove those years and Jordan shot 30%.

https://i.ibb.co/QmsKPQF/Screenshot-2023-09-05-at-9-40-11-PM.png

[Baller234]

50% was the first year of shortened NBA line, as well as 1996 and 1997. Remove those years and Jordan shot 30%.

https://i.ibb.co/QmsKPQF/Screenshot-2023-09-05-at-9-40-11-PM.png

Dude, you said Giannis would score more than MJ because he's tall...

https://media2.giphy.com/media/J2DYCDA15pTau86IGr/giphy.gif

[8Ball]

Dude, you said Giannis would score more than MJ because he's tall...

https://media2.giphy.com/media/J2DYCDA15pTau86IGr/giphy.gif

Where did I say Giannis would score more?


I said Giannis dominates the game today without a 3 point shot because he is 7 feet and as fast as a guard. That enables him to finish at the rim at a very efficient clip and be one of the best drivers of the basketball in the game in transition.

Jordan ain't 7 feet.

[Baller234]

Where did I say Giannis would score more?


I said Giannis dominates the game today without a 3 point shot because he is 7 feet and as fast as a guard. That enables him to finish at the rim at a very efficient clip and be one of the best drivers of the basketball in the game in transition.

Jordan ain't 7 feet.

- In 1988-89, Jordan was putting up 32 a game on 22 shots. He attempted less than 1 three per game.

- Last season, Luka was putting up 32 a game on 22 shots. He attempted 8 threes per game.


Are the rims still 10 feet? Is a field goal inside the arc still worth 2 points? What makes you think Jordan would all of a sudden find it difficult to put up similar numbers? What the hell do threes have to do with it? It's easier to score now.

Luka shoots more threes, but his individual scoring ability doesn't even rank next to MJ. It's not close actually.

[dankok8]

Loses in 2007.

Win in 2011.

With an injured Bosh and lack of size in the interior, Jordan does not go as far in the EC in 2012. Gets knocked out in EC playoffs in 2012.

Most likely wins in 2013.

I don't see him winning 2014 with Wade and Bosh completely spent.

Loses in 2015.

Jordan does not beat the Warriors in 2016.

Loses in 2017.

Loses in 2018. Probably doesn't even make the finals in 2018 with that roster.

Wins in 2020.

So we have 4 championships with 1 less finals appearance in 2018.

Jordan also wins in 2012. Was prime Jordan not as good as 2012 Lebron?

2014 Finals were considered a coin toss by bookies before the finals began. It's only AFTER the Spurs won that the narrative changed.

Why wouldn't Jordan beat the Warriors in 2016? That makes no sense. Lebron was very subpar in Games 1, 2 and 4 which is why the Cavs were down 1-3 in the first place.

[8Ball]

- In 1988-89, Jordan was putting up 32 a game on 22 shots. He attempted less than 1 three per game.

- Last season, Luka was putting up 32 a game on 22 shots. He attempted 8 threes per game.


Are the rims still 10 feet? Is a field goal inside the arc still worth 2 points? What makes you think Jordan would all of a sudden find it difficult to put up similar numbers? What the hell do threes have to do with it? It's easier to score now.

Luka shoots more threes, but his individual scoring ability doesn't even rank next to MJ. It's not close actually.

Now you change the goal posts to Luka Doncic, who not only is a great scorer in today's game, looks to pass the ball a lot more than Jordan does.

Then you say Luka Doncic isn't as good of a scorer despite Luka averaging almost 28ppg while also looking to assist more than Jordan does and averages 33 ppg in the playoffs.

Jordan would be a great player in today's game, but all you old heads talking about 40 ppg Jordan are just delusional. Maybe not you specifically saying 40 ppg, but all the old heads keep saying "Jordan would average FIFTY!!!". Give me a break.

[8Ball]

Jordan also wins in 2012. Was prime Jordan not as good as 2012 Lebron?

2014 Finals were considered a coin toss by bookies before the finals began. It's only AFTER the Spurs won that the narrative changed.

Why wouldn't Jordan beat the Warriors in 2016? That makes no sense. Lebron was very subpar in Games 1, 2 and 4 which is why the Cavs were down 1-3 in the first place.

2012 Bosh was injured in the east. And by roster design I think Jordan would lose with Udonis Haslem as his big man. Bron had to have some monster rebounding games just to survive the eastern conference. But if you want to give Jordan 2012 I won't argue it much.

2014 finals was a cointoss because bookies didn't know how bad Wade's knees had gotten by then.

I don't think Jordan wins 2016 with Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love as his co-stars vs that Warriors team. But that would actually be a good matchup since Jordan matches up defensively probably better vs guards. Meanwhile Bron being bigger is more versatile vs bigger players.

[Baller234]

Now you change the goal posts to Luka Doncic, who not only is a great scorer in today's game, looks to pass the ball a lot more than Jordan does.

Then you say Luka Doncic isn't as good of a scorer despite Luka averaging almost 28ppg while also looking to assist more than Jordan does and averages 33 ppg in the playoffs.

Jordan would be a great player in today's game, but all you old heads talking about 40 ppg Jordan are just delusional. Maybe not you specifically saying 40 ppg, but all the old heads keep saying "Jordan would average FIFTY!!!". Give me a break.

But why couldn't he? He put up 37 a game in 87-88 when he had the green light. He did this in an era of more physicality, inferior spacing and against tougher interior defenses.

[8Ball]

But why couldn't he? He put up 37 a game in 87-88 when he had the green light. He did this in an era of more physicality, inferior spacing and against tougher interior defenses.

Because he isn't great at shooting 3s and jacked up 28 shots a game to do so.

[Baller234]

Because he isn't great at shooting 3s and jacked up 28 shots a game to do so.

Maybe you think Jordan shooting 28 shots a game with 2s is good offence, I wonder after how many losses in a row would the head coach put an end to that.

Am I talking to a wall?

It was harder for players to penetrate the lane in the 80's-90's. The floor wasn't nearly as spread out. On defense you were also allowed to make more contact with your man.

I will ask again. If MJ could dominate with 2 point buckets then, when it was tougher to score, why wouldn't he be able to now? Tell me specifically what you mean.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

1 game?

LeBron is a career 3 point shooter at 34.5%, not even LeBron stans would say that LeBron is a good 3 point shooter, he's mediocre compared to today's talent. Bran would probably be really good 3 point shooter in the 90s :lol. And Jordan is at 30% with current 3 point line and you stans call him a good 3 point shooter. The delusion.


Zion Williamson is 300 lbs and won't even make all-nba team. He only dominates because he is super strong, but since he's too big, he can't stay on the court without getting injured.


Giannis is 7 feet, Jordan isn't.



While Jordan never really proved it beyond a shadow of a doubt, the fact that his percentages increase in almost perfect harmony with the more 3’s he attempts is indicative of a good long-range shooting skillset.

His five highest attempt seasons double as his five highest % seasons, which is very unique…and probably not something you’d see if he didn’t at least have the ability to be a good three point shooter.

The Lopez’s, Gasol’s and Bosh’s of the world also all looked like anemic 3pt bombers when they only took bail-outs, yet revealed themselves to be quite capable the more they attempted. I believe Jordan would have followed a similar trajectory if he committed to making it a bigger part of his game.

Even if we omit the 3pt-shortened-line seasons, we’re left with 2 seasons worth of data where MJ integrated the 3 into his game, and averaged close to 3 attempts on 37% accuracy…and that’s with more old-school shooting mechanics that involved releasing the ball at the peak of his jump, and a low shot arc…neither of which lend themselves well to long-range shooting.

I think he would be an excellent three point shooter in todays game.

[RRR3]

Jordan pushing the 2017 warriors to 7 games is absolutely hilarious. Dankok thinks Space Jam was a documentary. I’m not even getting into 2018 that’s just trolling.

[ArbitraryWater]

2014 Finals were considered a coin toss by bookies before the finals began. It's only AFTER the Spurs won that the narrative changed.


So what?

Why woud we ignore what happened?

[Axe]

Now you change the goal posts to Luka Doncic, who not only is a great scorer in today's game, looks to pass the ball a lot more than Jordan does.

Then you say Luka Doncic isn't as good of a scorer despite Luka averaging almost 28ppg while also looking to assist more than Jordan does and averages 33 ppg in the playoffs.

Jordan would be a great player in today's game, but all you old heads talking about 40 ppg Jordan are just delusional. Maybe not you specifically saying 40 ppg, but all the old heads keep saying "Jordan would average FIFTY!!!". Give me a break.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRlLRN-EEg9IxYFeu6cLwlbnInpXbnjpAFk5A&usqp=CAU

At best.

[8Ball]

Am I talking to a wall?

It was harder for players to penetrate the lane in the 80's-90's. The floor wasn't nearly as spread out. On defense you were also allowed to make more contact with your man.

I will ask again. If MJ could dominate with 2 point buckets then, when it was tougher to score, why wouldn't he be able to now? Tell me specifically what you mean.

MJ would dominate in any era.

He's not averaging 40 points in this era. Well if you want to give him 30 shots a game he will. But that's bad basketball to give 1 player 30 shots a game.

[Baller234]

MJ would dominate in any era.

He's not averaging 40 points in this era. Well if you want to give him 30 shots a game he will. But that's bad basketball to give 1 player 30 shots a game.

Hid field goal percentage would be higher though, therefore he wouldn't need to attempt 30 shots.

Lebron's field goal % went up just as the space and pace freedom of movement era was starting to emerge. The same would happen with Jordan.