How RealGM's all-time rankings has changed from 2003 to 2023

[Im Still Ballin]

You can see the extended list here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HWQLTqFcJdJJNvMFDAwikJXujuh75uajUPrE0eF2XXc/edit?pli=1&pli=1#gid=0

https://i.ibb.co/xjRgYfz/yep.png

[Im Still Ballin]

The RealGM nerds are really pushing it with this Kevin Garnett shit. Sneaking him up slowly, subtly. They had him 20th after winning his championship, two spots behind Kobe. Yet somehow, despite Bryant winning two more championships and FMVPs, he's now not one, not two, not—but three spots behind!

Dios mio!

The Ben Taylor effect is real.

[John8204]

They are simply hyping up their generations players....which they shouldn't because of y'know dirty refs, "modern medicine" and open contracts.

[rmt]

KG at #9 above Magic, Bird and Kobe - what a crock. KAJ above MJ (switched places) and both retired decades ago - probably FAULTY Lebron/most points bias.

[Full Court]

If you really want to get to consensus, and not just a couple peoples' opinion, go with this:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2266468

[ArbitraryWater]

The RealGM nerds are really pushing it with this Kevin Garnett shit. Sneaking him up slowly, subtly. They had him 20th after winning his championship, two spots behind Kobe. Yet somehow, despite Bryant winning two more championships and FMVPs, he's now not one, not two, not—but three spots behind!

Dios mio!

The Ben Taylor effect is real.


advanced stats werent so advanced yet in 08 tbf

[90sgoat]

It's not really RealGM, it's the Player Comparison board, which is the advanced stats board in effect.

It's a bunch of Lebron stans who latched on to advanced stats as a way to hype their guy, then had to make everything else fit. That's why you have KG in the top 10.

[1987_Lakers]

We did it boys!

https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExdzA4Nm5udnZrMjZ5bzV2ZjJ1OHp1bHp 4Zmc0ZnI1dTFmY2Z5bGNkZSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/l4kDdCvgs503HNqhnu/giphy.gif

[ArbitraryWater]

How tf did Wilt get 1 in 2006

[SouBeachTalents]

We all know about their KG fetish, but CP3 at 20th is fvcking disgusting, ahead of Dr. J, Moses, Durant, Barkley, Wade, hell, he shouldn’t even be ahead of Giannis or Jokic.

[warriorfan]

that forum really went off the rails after the late 00’s

[JohnMax]

They're overrating KG because they are trying to promote the evolution of basketball through mobile bigs that can defend in space and space the floor.

As for why Kareem is above Jordan. They are angry Lebron is about to surpass Jordan by winning two more championships, two more FMVPS, and one or two more regular season MVPS. This is all about to take place in 2024 and 2025. So they are taking out their anger on Jordan by dropping him below Kareem, forcing him to sell his team, using Pippen to attack him in media, and showing him and his son out with white women. This all to signal Jordan is a villain now because he failed to hold on to his top spot.

[tpols]

The RealGM nerds are really pushing it with this Kevin Garnett shit. Sneaking him up slowly, subtly. They had him 20th after winning his championship, two spots behind Kobe. Yet somehow, despite Bryant winning two more championships and FMVPs, he's now not one, not two, not—but three spots behind!

Dios mio!

The Ben Taylor effect is real.

RealGM is a nerd site that takes no context into account. KG was an awesome talent but he lacked the bag and aggression to take over playoff games offensively.

[Wally450]

They switch KAJ and Jordan like they switch underwear?

[John8204]

How tf did Wilt get 1 in 2006

I think it was a confluence of several factors in 2006 the NBA all-time scoring list was KAJ, Malone, Jordan, Wilt, Moses. He was #2 in PPG and Jordan had just had his terrible comeback with the Wizards. Wilt's death was also fresh in peoples memory as it was 1999.

[kawhileonard2]

The panel was 32 voters and 16 are Lebron fans.

AEnigma - Lebron Fan
Ambrose - Lebron Fan
ceilng raiser
ceoofkobefans
Clyde Frazier
Colbinii - Lebron Fan
cupcakesnake
Doctor MJ
Dooley
DQuinn1575 - Lebron Fan
Dr Positivity - Lebron Fan
Dutchball97
eminence - Lebron Fan (dude puts KG over Jordan and Jordan 6th)
falcolombardi - Lebron Fan
Fundamentals21
homecourtloss - Lebron Fan
iggymcfrack - Lebron Fan
LA Bird - Lebron Fan
lessthanjake
Lou Fan
Moonbeam
OhayoKD - Lebron Fan
One_and_Done - Lebron Fan
penbeast0
rk2023 - Lebron Fan
ShaqAttac
Taj FTW - Lebron Fan
Tim Lehrbach
trelos6 - Lebron Fan
trex_8063 - Lebron Fan
ZeppelinPage
Getting read


In 2020 they did it after the title and all the Lebron fans left after vote 1. Can't have a legit debate if half the voters are for one guy up front. That is when a poll is more useful.

[SouBeachTalents]

The panel was 32 voters and 16 are Lebron fans.

AEnigma - Lebron Fan
Ambrose - Lebron Fan
ceilng raiser
ceoofkobefans
Clyde Frazier
Colbinii - Lebron Fan
cupcakesnake
Doctor MJ
Dooley
DQuinn1575 - Lebron Fan
Dr Positivity - Lebron Fan
Dutchball97
eminence - Lebron Fan (dude puts KG over Jordan and Jordan 6th)
falcolombardi - Lebron Fan
Fundamentals21
homecourtloss - Lebron Fan
iggymcfrack - Lebron Fan
LA Bird - Lebron Fan
lessthanjake
Lou Fan
Moonbeam
OhayoKD - Lebron Fan
One_and_Done - Lebron Fan
penbeast0
rk2023 - Lebron Fan
ShaqAttac
Taj FTW - Lebron Fan
Tim Lehrbach
trelos6 - Lebron Fan
trex_8063 - Lebron Fan
ZeppelinPage
Getting read


In 2020 they did it after the title and all the Lebron fans left after vote 1. Can't have a legit debate if half the voters are for one guy up front. That is when a poll is more useful.
Thanks for the intel jordansbulls

[warriorfan]

How tf did Wilt get 1 in 2006

In that era of the forum there were quite a few old heads that would make great cases for wilt

There’s a good chance a lot of them have legit passed away at this point. A lot of those dudes brought it though.

[JohnMax]

RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2008) (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=830301&st=0&sk=t&sd=a)

RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2011) (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1123731)

RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2014) (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1328924)

RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017) (https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1573442)

RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2020) (https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2004777)

RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2023) (https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2301069)

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

How tf did Wilt get 1 in 2006

Well old school box score stats are still incredibly kind to Wilt, and back then that’s basically all the poindexters had. It’s sort of still all they have for that era, but eventually they clued in to what many of us already knew, which is that Wilt’s brand of hero ball wasn’t optimal, and that if he played more like Russ his statistical footprint would’ve massively shrunk despite it almost certainly leading to better team outcomes.

[Im Still Ballin]

RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2008) (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=830301&st=0&sk=t&sd=a)

RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2011) (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1123731)

RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2014) (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1328924)

RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017) (https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1573442)

RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2020) (https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2004777)

RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2023) (https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2301069)

Thanks, John.

[Full Court]

Well old school box score stats are still incredibly kind to Wilt, and back then that’s basically all the poindexters had. It’s sort of still all they have for that era, but eventually they clued in to what many of us already knew, which is that Wilt’s brand of hero ball wasn’t optimal, and that if he played more like Russ his statistical footprint would’ve massively shrunk despite it almost certainly leading to better team outcomes.

I agree that Wilt's brand of hero ball was not optimal, which is why he's not #1 all time in my opinion (failing to elevate his team to its potential). However, even in that era, nobody else was able to put up the numbers he was putting up (points, rebounds, blocks), so I have him ranked very highly based largely on utter dominance. Possibly the most unstoppable player of all time.

[dankok8]

Most of the Lebron fam now have Kareem > Jordan. That's the only way to seem objective in pushing the stupid longevity narrative. Lebron > Kareem > Jordan seems a heck of a lot more consistent than Lebron > Jordan > Kareem although it's worth noting that virtually no one 10+ years ago (with myself being one of the few exceptions) thought that Kareem had a case over Jordan. Jordan retiring early and not putting the all time scoring record out of reach doesn't make him any less of a GOAT.

It's pretty clear to anyone who values winning which as you know is the actual point of basketball, it's 1. Russell 2. Jordan and then everyone else after that. You can dock Russell that he played in a weaker era (less blacks) and that it was easier for him to win in a smaller league. That's why Jordan > Russell is actually debatable but I wouldn't even go there. Either way the two of them are in their own tier above Kareem and Lebron for me. Dominating an entire era by winning is the biggest accomplishment in the GOAT debate in any sport so why would it not be in basketball.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

I agree that Wilt's brand of hero ball was not optimal, which is why he's not #1 all time in my opinion (failing to elevate his team to its potential). However, even in that era, nobody else was able to put up the numbers he was putting up (points, rebounds, blocks), so I have him ranked very highly based largely on utter dominance. Possibly the most unstoppable player of all time.

Yes he’s possibly underrated by Per-75’s, because practically nobody had high Per-75 scoring rates back then (by todays standards). It was a different, less heliocentric game. That said it could also be argued this helped Wilt by allowing him more room to create (in-era) statistical separation by being the first player of that kind…but I do generally agree he deserves a more nuanced reading.

[TheMan]

So the only RealGM polls LeBron wins are when it's only a handful of voters and half of them are Bronsexuals...gotcha :lol

[90sgoat]

How would ISH attempt to make a ranking without it being 20 pages of 3ball?

Do we have any objective criteria we could use?

[SouBeachTalents]

How would ISH attempt to make a ranking without it being 20 pages of 3ball?

Do we have any objective criteria we could use?
We actually made a very respectable, non troll list a couple years back

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499632-Top-50-List-Revisited

MUCH better than RGM’s.

[Im Still Ballin]

We actually made a very respectable, non troll list a couple years back

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499632-Top-50-List-Revisited

MUCH better than RGM’s.

Our list is real nice. Garnett in an appropriate spot; Curry above Durant; Magic, Bird, and Kobe not disrespected.

[warriorfan]

Our list is real nice. Garnett in an appropriate spot; Curry above Durant; Magic, Bird, and Kobe not disrespected.

Some people think i’m trolling when I say it but i’m 100% serious when saying this forum is legit better then realGM now.

[3ba11]

We actually made a very respectable, non troll list a couple years back

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499632-Top-50-List-Revisited

MUCH better than RGM’s.


The list was made after Giannis won his title with the 50 points in game 7, yet the list puts Pippen above him - if this doesn't prove that pippen is MASSIVELY-INFLATED by the winning spotlight, then nothing will..

what possible reason could the list have for putting pippen above Giannis in November of 2021? Inferior offense, inferior defense - BY A TON - only the winning spotlight and ring count puts Pippen above Giannis - aka inflation from playing with MJ and getting carried to titles more than anyone ever has, as the stats clearly show

[tpols]

The worst thing about realGM is if you go against their new age liberal group think, you get auto banned. Don't have to insult anybody or even say anything crazy. If you make a contextual, historical case for one player over another that doesn't go along with their group think you're banned.

[warriorfan]

The worst thing about realGM is if you go against their new age liberal group think, you get auto banned. Don't have to insult anybody or even say anything crazy. If you make a contextual, historical case for one player over another that doesn't go along with their group think you're banned.

This 100%. It’s why the site declined so much and now this forum is better.

The Kevin Garnett thing started before the ElGee Ben Taylor guy got going. KG always had a small but extremely vocal and die hard following on realGM. Guys would endlessly post pages of on off data and other obscure stats and basically try to bury people with it filibuster style. If you tried to challenge some of the data or methodology of what they were concluding from their picked data they would refuse and only stick to it.

So you couldn’t really call anyone out or clown on them for this type of stuff. So they kept doing it and gained a bit more of a following from newer posters who were more of just showing off that they are onboard with the advanced stats trump everything tip. Basically basketball nerd virtue signaling. That’s what KG basically became. Then that ElGee guy came and ran with it and it’s gotten even worse.

[Im Still Ballin]

This 100%. It’s why the site declined so much and now this forum is better.

The Kevin Garnett thing started before the ElGee Ben Taylor guy got going. KG always had a small but extremely vocal and die hard following on realGM. Guys would endlessly post pages of on off data and other obscure stats and basically try to bury people with it filibuster style. If you tried to challenge some of the data or methodology of what they were concluding from their picked data they would refuse and only stick to it.

So you couldn’t really call anyone out or clown on them for this type of stuff. So they kept doing it and gained a bit more of a following from newer posters who were more of just showing off that they are onboard with the advanced stats trump everything tip. Basically basketball nerd virtue signaling. That’s what KG basically became. Then that ElGee guy came and ran with it and it’s gotten even worse.

Damn. The KG Acolytes are militant.

[DaRkJaWs]

Some people think i’m trolling when I say it but i’m 100% serious when saying this forum is legit better then realGM now.

Of course there were times when I did my part to elevate Wilt and trash on the religious grounds many were putting (cherry picked) advanced statistics. I actually wrote a review of advanced stats in response to an article back in 2014. That comment has been lost to history but I do have a response I made to someone emailing me about it. I'll post it below, and its very much a criticism of the dumbasses on RealGM. Its such a shame I didn't get to fight with them more than I actually did. They're the biggest pseudoscientists around.

Here is my response to someone emailing me:


To answer your last question, no, as I said in the post I am from an economics background, but one that criticizes economics as it is practiced now (we call ourselves "heterodox" economists). So to go against the grain is very much in my nature, not only being a rather sectarian sort of person growing up but also recently trained to do it the proper way. I'm an all-but-dissertation PHD in economics, and the NBA is the one and only professional or college sports organization that I've ever been interested in. I must have signed up on that Intel forum to ask a question...I honestly don't even remember signing up for it.

I must tell you that I'm interested in what you plan on doing, but not sure how much I can help. If you give me some more information on exactly what type of product you plan on introducing I can of course tell you how much I can help.

With that said, what I mainly focus on as it pertains to the NBA is to protect it from the extreme forms of scientism that pervades some of the social sciences. It's a miracle in some ways that it didn't invade the NBA a long time ago, but because of that it is more crucial than ever to form the arguments against them, as it is really not only being popularized but pushed heavily by a lot of people who don't know any better. This isn't to say that bad scouting and general managing isn't already and hasn't been a part of the NBA...of course it has, and still is. But having quants who use advanced statistics to make claims does not fix this problem. In many ways it can make it worse. I did, however, exaggerate my claims in saying that quants could take over, as I really do not believe that. The primary reason for this is that the quants are on a shorter leash because they are not people who are necessarily associated with the NBA. Hence, at the end of the day the business enterprise and money always talks, and would be willing to throw them out for failing to bring to the table the kind of winning opportunities they claimed they would bring. However, it could also go the other way, as owners and others would "defer to the experts", simply because the statistics are something seen as objective and beyond any criticism. The implication is that (as I mentioned in my post), where before scouts and managers could have RATIONAL debates over the merits of this or that player or this or that scheme, that those sorts of debates are shut down in favor of what the stats say. Some people think the end of debate is a good thing, but as any thinking person knows it is in fact a very bad thing (this problem is actually endemic to our culture as a whole, but I won't go there). Being exposed to criticism is what allows a richer view to unfold. Shutting down debate and discussion is the only reason people are pushing to have quants in the NBA. The potential for being the omniscient quant is too great of a lure for many people with interest in the NBA. It's best the owners and managers find this out now, before their views are drowned out for good. This is why I believe that former player spoke out, as it's influence is already being felt. And the sort of points I'm raising here are exactly the kinds of points the quants are all too willing to drown out, including on the RealGM forums.

There is no substitute for good, hard work in scouting/watching videos and looking at other character traits about a player. And if a team had to choose between that or having quants, leaving out the quants does little to no harm to the team, and may in fact strengthen it. This latter point is the most important thing that needs to be emphasized before things get out of control. Because the last thing we need are more "experts".
With that said, I am also interested in NBA history, and favorite player of all time is Wilt Chamberlain. So I do have a limited scope as it pertains to the NBA, and if you would like me to write anything about these topics (or related) I would be more than happy to do so.

[Im Still Ballin]

Of course there were times when I did my part to elevate Wilt and trash on the religious grounds many were putting (cherry picked) advanced statistics. I actually wrote a review of advanced stats in response to an article back in 2014. That comment has been lost to history but I do have a response I made to someone emailing me about it. I'll post it below, and its very much a criticism of the dumbasses on RealGM. Its such a shame I didn't get to fight with them more than I actually did. They're the biggest pseudoscientists around.

Here is my response to someone emailing me:


To answer your last question, no, as I said in the post I am from an economics background, but one that criticizes economics as it is practiced now (we call ourselves "heterodox" economists). So to go against the grain is very much in my nature, not only being a rather sectarian sort of person growing up but also recently trained to do it the proper way. I'm an all-but-dissertation PHD in economics, and the NBA is the one and only professional or college sports organization that I've ever been interested in. I must have signed up on that Intel forum to ask a question...I honestly don't even remember signing up for it.

I must tell you that I'm interested in what you plan on doing, but not sure how much I can help. If you give me some more information on exactly what type of product you plan on introducing I can of course tell you how much I can help.

With that said, what I mainly focus on as it pertains to the NBA is to protect it from the extreme forms of scientism that pervades some of the social sciences. It's a miracle in some ways that it didn't invade the NBA a long time ago, but because of that it is more crucial than ever to form the arguments against them, as it is really not only being popularized but pushed heavily by a lot of people who don't know any better. This isn't to say that bad scouting and general managing isn't already and hasn't been a part of the NBA...of course it has, and still is. But having quants who use advanced statistics to make claims does not fix this problem. In many ways it can make it worse. I did, however, exaggerate my claims in saying that quants could take over, as I really do not believe that. The primary reason for this is that the quants are on a shorter leash because they are not people who are necessarily associated with the NBA. Hence, at the end of the day the business enterprise and money always talks, and would be willing to throw them out for failing to bring to the table the kind of winning opportunities they claimed they would bring. However, it could also go the other way, as owners and others would "defer to the experts", simply because the statistics are something seen as objective and beyond any criticism. The implication is that (as I mentioned in my post), where before scouts and managers could have RATIONAL debates over the merits of this or that player or this or that scheme, that those sorts of debates are shut down in favor of what the stats say. Some people think the end of debate is a good thing, but as any thinking person knows it is in fact a very bad thing (this problem is actually endemic to our culture as a whole, but I won't go there). Being exposed to criticism is what allows a richer view to unfold. Shutting down debate and discussion is the only reason people are pushing to have quants in the NBA. The potential for being the omniscient quant is too great of a lure for many people with interest in the NBA. It's best the owners and managers find this out now, before their views are drowned out for good. This is why I believe that former player spoke out, as it's influence is already being felt. And the sort of points I'm raising here are exactly the kinds of points the quants are all too willing to drown out, including on the RealGM forums.

There is no substitute for good, hard work in scouting/watching videos and looking at other character traits about a player. And if a team had to choose between that or having quants, leaving out the quants does little to no harm to the team, and may in fact strengthen it. This latter point is the most important thing that needs to be emphasized before things get out of control. Because the last thing we need are more "experts".
With that said, I am also interested in NBA history, and favorite player of all time is Wilt Chamberlain. So I do have a limited scope as it pertains to the NBA, and if you would like me to write anything about these topics (or related) I would be more than happy to do so.

Interesting post.