The Bagless One

[nineiron]

enjoy!


https://youtu.be/dBAzUofpBQE?si=c9_NHs0miINRN0VJ

[Im Still Ballin]

LeBron has always been somewhat stiff and mechanical, lacking fluidity and smoothness in his game. However, his size, strength, explosiveness, and skill make him one of the best scorers ever. He's an above-average ball handler and shooter; he's a better three-point shooter than he is a mid-range one. While not having as many counters, his tremendous physical gifts allow him to force the issue more often than lesser physical specimens.

I guess it comes down to what your parameters are for "best scorer." In theory, it should be the player whose scoring provides the most offensive value. Regardless of volume, efficiency, and diversity, and even aesthetics.

Is Shaq less of a scorer than Carmelo? And this raises a whole other question about how stupid it is to try to separate scoring from playmaking. They're intimately connected, just as offense and defense are.

[8Ball]

Jordan stans are a lot more upset about LeBron being #1 greatest scorer of all time than I thought.

Deal with it.

https://i.ibb.co/7n9kPjj/Screenshot-2023-09-06-at-2-28-37-PM.png

[Baller234]

LeBron has always been somewhat stiff and mechanical, lacking fluidity and smoothness in his game. However, his size, strength, explosiveness, and skill make him one of the best scorers ever. He's an above-average ball handler and shooter; he's a better three-point shooter than he is a mid-range one. While not having as many counters, his tremendous physical gifts allow him to force the issue more often than lesser physical specimens.

I guess it comes down to what your parameters are for "best scorer." In theory, it should be the player whose scoring provides the most offensive value. Regardless of volume, efficiency, and diversity, and even aesthetics.

Is Shaq less of a scorer than Carmelo? And this raises a whole other question about how stupid it is to try to separate scoring from playmaking. They're intimately connected, just as offense and defense are.

In some ways actually yes, Shaq isn't as good a scorer as Carmelo.

For one Shaq has to get open first. You can't just give him the ball anywhere on the court and let him go to work. First he has to get to his spot, then he needs to get in position. You also better hope he doesn't get fouled.

Second, Shaq doesn't have anywhere near the versatility. Sure he can dominate for 3.5 quarters, but when push comes to shove can he close the deal? How reliable is that turnaround hook of his when he's further from the basket? Not as reliable as Carmelo's mid range jumper I'll tell you that.

I agree with everything you said about Lebron, how his physical gifts make up for his lack of fundamentals and fluidity, but that's also why I could never put him in the same discussion as guys who just had god tier skill (Jordan, Bird, Kobe, McGrady, etc). Mind you I'm just talking about individual unassisted scoring.

[RRR3]

In some ways actually yes, Shaq isn't as good a scorer as Carmelo.

For one Shaq has to get open first. You can't just give him the ball anywhere on the court and let him go to work. First he has to get to his spot, then he needs to get in position. You also better hope he doesn't get fouled.

Second, Shaq doesn't have anywhere near the versatility. Sure he can dominate for 3.5 quarters, but when push comes to shove can he close the deal? How reliable is that turnaround hook of his when he's further from the basket? Not as reliable as Carmelo's mid range jumper I'll tell you that.

I agree with everything you said about Lebron, how his physical gifts make up for his lack of fundamentals and fluidity, but that's also why I could never put him in the same discussion as guys who just had god tier skill (Jordan, Bird, Kobe, McGrady, etc). Mind you I'm just talking about individual unassisted scoring.
I’m positive LeBron scores a higher percentage of his point unassisted than anyone you mentioned. I know he scored more unassisted than Kobe for a fact. Narratives are funny.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

We’re not selling jeans here.

LeBron is an aesthetes nightmare and that’s one of the reasons I can’t root for him, his game just doesn’t rouse me. No matter. Still an all-time great scorer.

[Baller234]

I’m positive LeBron scores a higher percentage of his point unassisted than anyone you mentioned. I know he scored more unassisted than Kobe for a fact. Narratives are funny.

He also played half his career in the small ball space and pace era. My grandma could score at a higher clip in today's game.

Check Lebron's numbers from the first half of his career during the zone defense era. He shot the same sub .500% percentage as the rest of his peers.

Stat nerds are funny.

[RRR3]

He also played half his career in the small ball space and pace era. My grandma could score at a higher clip in today's game.

Check Lebron's numbers from the first half of his career during the zone defense era. He shot the same sub .500% percentage as the rest of his peers. Even during LeBron’s original run in Cleveland he scored less of his points off assists than Kobe. The data is freely available.

Stat nerds are funny.
LeBron was shooting 50% by 2009-10, hilarious to describe that as the small hall pace and space era. And even before that his TS% was well above league average, especially for a perimeter player. Teams were still starting two centers as recently as like 2017, this era did not begin until well into LeBron’s career.

[Baller234]

LeBron was shooting 50% by 2009-10, hilarious to describe that as the small hall pace and space era. And even before that his TS% was well above league average, especially for a perimeter player. Teams were still starting two centers as recently as like 2017, this era did not begin until well into LeBron’s career.

I wouldn't expect stat geeks like yourself to know anything about basketball. Now you're comparing players using single percentage points and advanced stats, as if there is some major difference shooting 46% and 48%. In most cases that's barely a difference of a single field goal attempt.

Whenever this discussion comes up, I always point to this game.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sawa-NOA--8&ab_channel=NBA

Kobe and Lebron lead opposite squads. The end of the game comes down to a single possession. Kobe pulls up from just inside the three point line and gives his team a 1 point lead with 6 seconds left.

Last play of the game, they inbound the ball to Lebron who's being guarded by Kobe. Lebron actually jukes Kobe and frees himself up for a decent look, but Kobe recovers at the last second and forces Lebron into an awkward one handed tear drop that doesn't even connect with the rim. Game over.

In that moment, Lebron's quickness and athleticism couldn't make up for his inability to pull up comfortably from mid range. Meanwhile Kobe led his team to victory simply by being able to get off any shot at any time.

That's not something you'd be able to figure out just by looking at stats. You actually have to watch the game.

[RRR3]

I wouldn't expect stat geeks like yourself to know anything about basketball. Now you're comparing players using single percentage points and advanced stats, as if there is some major difference shooting 46% and 48%. In most cases that's barely a difference of a single field goal attempt.

Whenever this discussion comes up, I always point to this game.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sawa-NOA--8&ab_channel=NBA

Kobe and Lebron lead opposite squads. The end of the game comes down to a single possession. Kobe pulls up from mid range giving his team a 1 point lead with 6 seconds left.

Last play of the game, they inbound the ball to Lebron who's being guarded by Kobe. Lebron actually jukes Kobe and frees himself up for a decent look, but Kobe recovers at the last second and forces Lebron into an awkward one handed tear drop that doesn't even connect with the rim. Game over.

In that moment, Lebron's quickness and athleticism couldn't make up for his inability to pull up comfortably from mid range. Meanwhile Kobe led his team to victory simply by being able to get off any shot at any time.

That's not something you'd be able to figure out just by looking at stats. You actually have to watch the game.
You didn't address anything I said and just went on a rambling meltdown where you made emotional arguments. Using a head to head game as indicative of anything for LeBron versus Kobe is funny considering LeBron destroyed him head to head (16-6, and it was already 8-5 before LeBron left Cleveland before yoju whine about that). Congrats to Kobe for being better at midrange pullup jumpers I guess? LeBron was better at basically everything else.

[Axe]

Jordan stans are a lot more upset about LeBron being #1 greatest scorer of all time than I thought.

Deal with it.

https://i.ibb.co/7n9kPjj/Screenshot-2023-09-06-at-2-28-37-PM.png
True story.

[sdot_thadon]

Imagine being Bagless, imagine having:
"No left hand"
"No dribbling skills"
"No post-game"
"No mid range pull up"
"No outside shot"
"No offball game"
"Can't get by your man"
"Can't make free throws"
.....and having more points than anyone else to ever play the game and in the playoffs as well! All the guys that have these big bags? Got more points than they do. Imagine having all these perceived deficits and being "predictable" and "easier to defend" as a result of it....and still being nigh unstoppable. Imagine for one moment being Lebron James. And then imagine how many points he'd have and how upset you'd be if he didn't have all these perceived weaknesses......wow.

[RRR3]

Imagine being Bagless, imagine having:
"No left hand"
"No dribbling skills"
"No post-game"
"No mid range pull up"
"No outside shot"
"No offball game"
"Can't get by your man"
"Can't make free throws"
.....and having more points than anyone else to ever play the game and in the playoffs as well! All the guys that have these big bags? Got more points than they do. Imagine having all these perceived deficits and being "predictable" and "easier to defend" as a result of it....and still being nigh unstoppable. Imagine for one moment being Lebron James. And then imagine how many points he'd have and how upset you'd be if he didn't have all these perceived weaknesses......wow.
Kobe stans are amongst the stupidest people on earth.

[jlip]

We’re not selling jeans here.

LeBron is an aesthetes nightmare and that’s one of the reasons I can’t root for him, his game just doesn’t rouse me. No matter. Still an all-time great scorer.

I've been saying this for years. Basketball is not figure skating or synchronized swimming. You don't get extra points for how aesthetically appealing the move leading to the shot was. The goal is to put the ball in the basket, not look pretty while doing it.

[3ba11]

LeBron has always been somewhat stiff and mechanical, lacking fluidity and smoothness in his game. However, his size, strength, explosiveness, and skill make him one of the best scorers ever. He's an above-average ball handler and shooter; he's a better three-point shooter than he is a mid-range one. While not having as many counters, his tremendous physical gifts allow him to force the issue more often than lesser physical specimens.

I guess it comes down to what your parameters are for "best scorer." In theory, it should be the player whose scoring provides the most offensive value. Regardless of volume, efficiency, and diversity, and even aesthetics.

Is Shaq less of a scorer than Carmelo? And this raises a whole other question about how stupid it is to try to separate scoring from playmaking. They're intimately connected, just as offense and defense are.


He can't score 40 while the ball moves, so he isn't an all-time scorer.. He must completely dominate the ball to score a lot, which sacrifices brand of ball

look how he lost with 18 on 38% from Mo Williams - he can't beat top teams when he has to dominate the ball so much, which is why he never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs vs good teams in 2 decades)..

He's too ball-dominant at carry-job volume and therefore needs ridiculous scoring help just like Magic did.. Ball-dominators and passers like Magic/Lebron need the most scoring help and they need "closers" (they need the most help of anyone ever and still mostly lost the Finals, aka 9-10 Finals record for Lebron/Magic)