Would Dwight Howard play the PF position in the '90s?

[Im Still Ballin]

I wonder if he'd be more effective playing the PF position in the '90s. Don't get me wrong: he's big and strong enough to play the center position. He's 6'9" barefoot, lean and ripped at 265-280 pounds, and has a 9'3.5" standing reach and near 7'5" wingspan. As well as a 40" vertical jump.

Patrick Ewing and Hakeem were only 6'10" barefoot. Alonzo was 6'9" like Dwight. Howard was stronger and more physical than all of them. Only Shaq and some of the huge guys like Sabonis could outmuscle him. I don't know about Smits and Longley because Dwight cooked Big Z.

But would you be better off with him at the PF position? The '90s had guys like 6'11" Dale Davis and 6'11" Elden Campbell among others playing the four alongside centers. Neither of those guys were very good outside shooters according to the stats. Like, sub 40% from mid-range on low volume. We're talking 37-38%. Just garbage.

I think the key thing that makes it work is two things:

1) Being paired with a big center that can shoot a little.
2) The illegal defense rules.

Rik Smits was a fantastic shooter, as was Vlade Divac.

Would it be better to play Dwight at the PF with a guy like Rik Smits at C? Wouldn't he have more of a physical advantage there? Wouldn't he be able to play bully ball more easily? How would the defense respond? Would it take away from his defense?

[Real Men Wear Green]

On most teams he's a center but if a team felt they had better chemistry with their other center in the floor and the guy that soul of play pf on the bench he could be at the 4. There are a few cases of twin tower teams, twin towers is why Duncan was originally moved to pf.

[SouBeachTalents]

I would not want to play Dwight at PF in any era. Even if you had a center who could shoot, anytime they'd post up the spacing would be atrocious, even for 90's standards.

[Im Still Ballin]

For what it's worth, Dwight did play PF in his first two seasons. I'm trying to think of some '80s/'90s PFs that dominated the paint without an outside shot. The closest that comes to mind is Sir Charles but he had some range.

[L.Kizzle]

In the 90s, it really wouldn't matter. Kevin Willis played both. Guys like Thorpe and Charles Oakley were PF, but would guard centers as well. Alonzo Mourning was considered small for a center. Hakeem was center alongside 7'4 Sampson (that was the 80s but still.)
It would basically depend who the other big was. If he plays alongside Tyrone Hill, he's a center. If he plays alongside Kevin Duckworth, he's most likely a PF.

[Reggie43]

He probably would play PF just to avoid the matchup and save some energy and wear and tear guarding goat level centers.

[Xiao Yao You]

Probably a 4.

[90sgoat]

His offensive skillsets or lack of it would suggest it.

[Im Still Ballin]

In the 90s, it really wouldn't matter. Kevin Willis played both. Guys like Thorpe and Charles Oakley were PF, but would guard centers as well. Alonzo Mourning was considered small for a center. Hakeem was center alongside 7'4 Sampson (that was the 80s but still.)
It would basically depend who the other big was. If he plays alongside Tyrone Hill, he's a center. If he plays alongside Kevin Duckworth, he's most likely a PF.

Thanks for the insight, OG!

[ILLsmak]

Depends on who the C was. Oliver Miller was a pretty decent C. Dwight is bigger and faster and much better. Nothing would stop him from banging with most of those guys cept Shaq. You kind of had to have a middie to be a PF. Like I always say, I think Hakeem is the best PF of all time. He would fit next to any C and provide a ton. He would also lock any PF, including TD if you slot him there.

So nah, I think he'd still be a 5. He'd be a big force. I don't think it would be worth taking time away to have him learn midrange shooting. He COULD play alongside certain Cs, but I don't think it would be ideal. Would be more ideal to get him w/ a crazy pf. Like remember the Sonics had Perkins at C, and Perkins had some scoring inside, too, plus he was a floor spacer, but imagine them with Dwight as a C, they would have been winning rings. Dwight is def underrated as a presence, but he was kind of a weird scorer.

Edit: same w/ what you mentioned w/ Barkley, put Dwight instead of Oliver Miller thats $$$. They just need a kinda fast paced team with a good pg like KJ or GP. Shit, put him at C along side Malone and it would be ugly, too. Dwight can guard and reb vs people and on the break he'd be out, rolling he'd be getting bodies. Killing on the orebs.

-Smak

[Im Still Ballin]

Depends on who the C was. Oliver Miller was a pretty decent C. Dwight is bigger and faster and much better. Nothing would stop him from banging with most of those guys cept Shaq. You kind of had to have a middie to be a PF. Like I always say, I think Hakeem is the best PF of all time. He would fit next to any C and provide a ton. He would also lock any PF, including TD if you slot him there.

So nah, I think he'd still be a 5. He'd be a big force. I don't think it would be worth taking time away to have him learn midrange shooting. He COULD play alongside certain Cs, but I don't think it would be ideal. Would be more ideal to get him w/ a crazy pf. Like remember the Sonics had Perkins at C, and Perkins had some scoring inside, too, plus he was a floor spacer, but imagine them with Dwight as a C, they would have been winning rings. Dwight is def underrated as a presence, but he was kind of a weird scorer.

-Smak

Great post as always.

Who do you think was the closest comparison to Dwight in the '90s? I feel like young Shaq when he was in better shape, more mobile, lighter, and had a greater motor. When he rolled and set screens more. Dwight was never as smooth and fluid though. But on the whole, I think that version of Shaq is the closest.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVvW2HLlJiQ&ab_channel=BBV3

[meat]

Atlanta started Tree Rollins and Kevin Willis together for a few years. Didn't work out too well.

[ILLsmak]

Great post as always.

Who do you think was the closest comparison to Dwight in the '90s? I feel like young Shaq when he was in better shape, more mobile, lighter, and had a greater motor. When he rolled and set screens more. Dwight was never as smooth and fluid though. But on the whole, I think that version of Shaq is the closest.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVvW2HLlJiQ&ab_channel=BBV3

like dudes mentioned, willis, but Dwight better. Forgot if Willis had a lil J tho, but Dwight was a monster at getting the ball in the basket inside. Willis was more of an enforcer imo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkFOjhRGPc

-Smak

[Im Still Ballin]

Indiana had really great offenses while playing Rik Smits (7'4") and Dale Davis (6'11") together.

1993: 5th out of 27
1994: 11th out of 27
1995: 8th out of 27
1996: 6th out of 29
1997: 15th out of 29
1998: 4th out of 29
1999: 1st out of 29
2000: 1st out of 29

It could definitely work with the right personnel. But would it be optimal?

[L.Kizzle]

Indiana had really great offenses while playing Rik Smits (7'4") and Dale Davis (6'11") together.

1993: 5th out of 27
1994: 11th out of 27
1995: 8th out of 27
1996: 6th out of 29
1997: 15th out of 29
1998: 4th out of 29
1999: 1st out of 29
2000: 1st out of 29

It could definitely work with the right personnel. But would it be optimal?
None of those guys are superstar bigs tho.
Hakeem and Thorpe
Ewing and Oakley
Shaq and Ho.Grant
Not sure who was starting alongside Robinson before Duncan and Rodman. Cadillac Anderson maybe.
Those come to mind.
Then you have the undersized Frontline of Mourning and LJ for a few seasons.

[Xiao Yao You]

None of those guys are superstar bigs tho.
Hakeem and Thorpe
Ewing and Oakley
Shaq and Ho.Grant
Not sure who was starting alongside Robinson before Duncan and Rodman. Cadillac Anderson maybe.
Those come to mind.
Then you have the undersized Frontline of Mourning and LJ for a few seasons.

Mourning and LJ both played big.

[Xiao Yao You]

Atlanta started Tree Rollins and Kevin Willis together for a few years. Didn't work out too well.

Good D. Having an inefficient go to guy was their problem

[Xiao Yao You]

like dudes mentioned, willis, but Dwight better. Forgot if Willis had a lil J tho, but Dwight was a monster at getting the ball in the basket inside. Willis was more of an enforcer imo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkFOjhRGPc

-Smak

Willis had the jump hook

[Im Still Ballin]

Here's an example of how Indiana's setup looked. Patrick Ewing was dragged out of the paint due to Rik Smit's shooting range. You can imagine Dwight killing it with the alley-oops in that kind of setup.

https://i.ibb.co/bJ9XNwq/7ydbz3.gif

[Im Still Ballin]

Smits stretching the defense for Davis in the paint:

https://i.ibb.co/LnLv596/7ydd4o.gif

[Im Still Ballin]

Smits and the illegal defense rule stretching the defense for a Davis post-up play:

https://i.ibb.co/Vp9Vn3G/7yde25.gif

[L.Kizzle]

Mourning and LJ both played big.

That is true, but your Frontline is still 6'6 and 6'9.

[Xiao Yao You]

That is true, but your Frontline is still 6'6 and 6'9.

what is mourning's wing span and standing reach? He's one of the greatest rim protectors ever. Might have hurt him on the boards where he wasn't elite

[Im Still Ballin]

Here's a beautiful play. Smits high pick-and-roll + illegal defense rule draws out the defense, leading to a Davis alley-oop:

https://i.ibb.co/X2z5YHj/7ydg2w.gif

[L.Kizzle]

what is mourning's wing span and standing reach? He's one of the greatest rim protectors ever. Might have hurt him on the boards where he wasn't elite

He definitely had small arms. Not Kev Willis small but alot of the PFs were bigger and longer than him if I remember correctly.

[Im Still Ballin]

He definitely had small arms. Not Kev Willis small but alot of the PFs were bigger and longer than him if I remember correctly.

Alonzo Mourning had a 7'7" wingspan. As long as Shaq. His standing reach was probably in that 9'3" to 9'5" range.

[Im Still Ballin]

Footage of Dwight playing PF early in his career:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kBz_AfGt2M&ab_channel=slam40dunk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhp6IT0ehjI&pp=ygUSZHdpZ2h0IGhvd2FyZCAyMDA1


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsKzU8rVPpc

[Im Still Ballin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm7L0mbC674

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNkKUoQaF4Y&pp=ygUSZHdpZ2h0IGhvd2FyZCAyMDA1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcieXT4AXKg&pp=ygUSZHdpZ2h0IGhvd2FyZCAyMDA0

[Xiao Yao You]

Alonzo Mourning had a 7'7" wingspan. As long as Shaq. His standing reach was probably in that 9'3" to 9'5" range.

I figured he had elite length

[L.Kizzle]

Alonzo Mourning had a 7'7" wingspan. As long as Shaq. His standing reach was probably in that 9'3" to 9'5" range.

Oh wow, his arms didn't look that long. Maybe because he was smaller then the majority of the centers he played against.

[Reggie43]

Smits with Dwight would obviously work but Smits was a much more skilled post player that he would take touches away from Howard.

[Im Still Ballin]

Smits with Dwight would obviously work but Smits was a much more skilled post player that he would take touches away from Howard.

Skilled doesn't mean more effective/better. Dwight was one of the best post-up players in the league during his prime.


https://www.orlandopinstripedpost.com/2011/2/18/2000487/no-dwight-howard-is-not-properly-rated-despite-bill-simmons-claims

But a lot of the criticism for his offense is simply unwarranted, unfair, or outdated. There's room for improve even more with his back to the basket, sure. He'd be the first person to tell you as much. But I come back to a point Magic television color analyst Matt Guokas often makes: when we say Howard's post game is unrefined, to whom are we comparing him? Consider all the league's back-to-basket players. Now try naming more than, say, three who have better post skills.

A look at Synergy Sports Technology data supports this idea. Here are some facts:

Howard ends a possession via post-up 12.7 times per game. This figure easily leads the league among players who have posted up at least 200 times, of whom there are 23; LaMarcus Aldridge, at 9.5 post-ups per game, ranks second. Indeed, the distance between Howard and the second-ranked Aldridge is greater than the distance between Aldridge and the the 10th-ranked Darko Milicic.

At 0.9152 points per post-up, Howard ranks eighth in the league in efficiency.

Howard's post-ups produce scores 49.3 percent of the time, fourth in the league.

Howard's average of 12.7 post-ups per game is the highest in the league since the 2006/07 season, when Yao Ming (a whopping 18.3) and Shaquille O'Neal (14.1) topped that number. Yao's post-up efficiency (0.9689 points per possession) throttles Howard's, but O'Neal's figure (0.9205) isn't too far removed.

In essence, Howard ranks as the most efficient, high-volume, back-to-basket player in five seasons, when Yao and O'Neal topped them in their prime and just-past-prime years. Further, those two played in only 48 and 40 games, respectively, that season.

Myth: Prime Dwight Howard was a bad post-up player [SPOILER: *He was actually good!*]
(http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?512427-Myth-Prime-Dwight-Howard-was-a-bad-post-up-player-SPOILER-*He-was-actually-good!*)
Like Shaq, Dwight's post-up PPP was brought down by free-throw shooting. As we know due to the OP, Dwight finished the season with 0.928 PPP and 50.3% FG post-up figures. Given his efficiency and volume went up from February - when this blog post was made - we can reasonably assume he was taking roughly 13 post-up possessions per game.

- 13 post-up possessions per game (by far the most in the league)
- 0.928 PPP
- 50.3% FG
- 13.9% turnover rate
- 58.7% of total offense

[Xiao Yao You]

Smits was in the high post in a lot of those clips

[Xiao Yao You]

Skilled doesn't mean more effective/better. Dwight was one of the best post-up players in the league during his prime.



Myth: Prime Dwight Howard was a bad post-up player [SPOILER: *He was actually good!*]
(http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?512427-Myth-Prime-Dwight-Howard-was-a-bad-post-up-player-SPOILER-*He-was-actually-good!*)
Like Shaq, Dwight's post-up PPP was brought down by free-throw shooting. As we know due to the OP, Dwight finished the season with 0.928 PPP and 50.3% FG post-up figures. Given his efficiency and volume went up from February - when this blog post was made - we can reasonably assume he was taking roughly 13 post-up possessions per game.

- 13 post-up possessions per game (by far the most in the league)
- 0.928 PPP
- 50.3% FG
- 13.9% turnover rate
- 58.7% of total offense

he had the best spacing in the league around him too. Indiana wouldn't have given him that in the 90's

[Im Still Ballin]

he had the best spacing in the league around him too. Indiana wouldn't have given him that in the 90's

The illegal defense rules would give him very high-quality post-up touches. You couldn't double a guy off the ball or front him with an extra man. The removal of illegal defense was one of the main reasons for the decline of the post-up game.

[Reggie43]

Skilled doesn't mean more effective/better. Dwight was one of the best post-up players in the league during his prime.



Myth: Prime Dwight Howard was a bad post-up player [SPOILER: *He was actually good!*]
(http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?512427-Myth-Prime-Dwight-Howard-was-a-bad-post-up-player-SPOILER-*He-was-actually-good!*)
Like Shaq, Dwight's post-up PPP was brought down by free-throw shooting. As we know due to the OP, Dwight finished the season with 0.928 PPP and 50.3% FG post-up figures. Given his efficiency and volume went up from February - when this blog post was made - we can reasonably assume he was taking roughly 13 post-up possessions per game.

- 13 post-up possessions per game (by far the most in the league)
- 0.928 PPP
- 50.3% FG
- 13.9% turnover rate
- 58.7% of total offense

Regardless of who was better both of those guys would sacrifice touches in the post. Im not even sure if Dwight would be as effective as Smits scoring against the Knicks frontline of Ewing, Oakley, Mason and other similar 90s teams

[Im Still Ballin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16Cw_FbWxCo&ab_channel=AdamSpinella

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EatxB5b223w&ab_channel=RyanVanDusen

[Xiao Yao You]

The illegal defense rules would give him very high-quality post-up touches. You couldn't double a guy off the ball or front him with an extra man. The removal of illegal defense was one of the main reasons for the decline of the post-up game.

the main reason is because a dunk/lay up, 3 and FT's are more efficient

[ILLsmak]

Willis had the jump hook

Willis was underrated, but the amount of garbage buckets Dwight would get would be nuts. He maybe wouldn't get 20 ppg, but on those teams I listed alongside Barkley, Malone, Kemp, whoever, he would be IN THERE. He doesn't need to score against the Knick front line per se because he'd be in there grabbing a board and then going back up, and if due to spacing he got a good roll opportunity, who is gonna stop him?

You can't IMO take a soft (but also underrated, fun to watch) big like Smits and then slot Dwight at PF along side him because you are losing a lot from him. Sure, Dwight can be crashing the other side or diving in while Smits posts kind of high, but think about Rodman and how he got in there. Dwight can do that. Dwight was a very adept rebounder. He wasn't as nuts as someone like Shaq, but the edge for Shaq was probably Moses Malone self rebounds. Accounting for era, Dwight was up there at the top or close, and while he played w/ spacers at his best, he never played with a good PG or a good slashing defense drawer. He got Kobe and Harden, but it's my opinion that he really needed that kind of player as a younger player, and having a pg - pf combo is different than having one guy who is a primary scorer, in terms of rebounding. You have to admit that if Dwight was on those teams instead of Ostertag or even Eaton, they would have been body snatching. It would have changed the whole dynamic. Like I said, garbage buckets. Lets people go harder to the rack cuz they know. Not that Ostertag or Eaton were bad, but Dwight is just a garbage bucket / roller. The fact that they gave him touches and he could get work in was just proof of what he could do inside. He didn't really have 'moves.' He'd be able to draw plenty of fouls though and I don't recall him struggling against many people other than old fat Shaq and I think that was more of a mental thing (like when Shaq passed between his legs and back cut him for the score.) That's another thing, putting him on a team w/ o a cold blooded 'u soft' guy like Kobe or a cancer like Harden... a real winning organization like Utah, Phx, or Seattle would have been great for his development.

Regardless of all of this talk, which is admittedly hypothetical bullshit, I am now sure my opinion is Dwight would NOT be a PF in the 90s, or any era. He just brings too much around the basket, plus he blocks shots. He'd pair well with an ATG PF not an ATG C, and that is the proof, to me.

-Smak

[Im Still Ballin]

Willis was underrated, but the amount of garbage buckets Dwight would get would be nuts. He maybe wouldn't get 20 ppg, but on those teams I listed alongside Barkley, Malone, Kemp, whoever, he would be IN THERE. He doesn't need to score against the Knick front line per se because he'd be in there grabbing a board and then going back up, and if due to spacing he got a good roll opportunity, who is gonna stop him?

You can't IMO take a soft (but also underrated, fun to watch) big like Smits and then slot Dwight at PF along side him because you are losing a lot from him. Sure, Dwight can be crashing the other side or diving in while Smits posts kind of high, but think about Rodman and how he got in there. Dwight can do that. Dwight was a very adept rebounder. He wasn't as nuts as someone like Shaq, but the edge for Shaq was probably Moses Malone self rebounds. Accounting for era, Dwight was up there at the top or close, and while he played w/ spacers at his best, he never played with a good PG or a good slashing defense drawer. He got Kobe and Harden, but it's my opinion that he really needed that kind of player as a younger player, and having a pg - pf combo is different than having one guy who is a primary scorer, in terms of rebounding. You have to admit that if Dwight was on those teams instead of Ostertag or even Eaton, they would have been body snatching. It would have changed the whole dynamic. Like I said, garbage buckets. Lets people go harder to the rack cuz they know. Not that Ostertag or Eaton were bad, but Dwight is just a garbage bucket / roller. The fact that they gave him touches and he could get work in was just proof of what he could do inside. He didn't really have 'moves.' He'd be able to draw plenty of fouls though and I don't recall him struggling against many people other than old fat Shaq and I think that was more of a mental thing (like when Shaq passed between his legs and back cut him for the score.) That's another thing, putting him on a team w/ o a cold blooded 'u soft' guy like Kobe or a cancer like Harden... a real winning organization like Utah, Phx, or Seattle would have been great for his development.

Regardless of all of this talk, which is admittedly hypothetical bullshit, I am now sure my opinion is Dwight would NOT be a PF in the 90s, or any era. He just brings too much around the basket, plus he blocks shots. He'd pair well with an ATG PF not an ATG C, and that is the proof, to me.

-Smak

Another great post.

[Xiao Yao You]

Willis was underrated, but the amount of garbage buckets Dwight would get would be nuts. He maybe wouldn't get 20 ppg, but on those teams I listed alongside Barkley, Malone, Kemp, whoever, he would be IN THERE. He doesn't need to score against the Knick front line per se because he'd be in there grabbing a board and then going back up, and if due to spacing he got a good roll opportunity, who is gonna stop him?

You can't IMO take a soft (but also underrated, fun to watch) big like Smits and then slot Dwight at PF along side him because you are losing a lot from him. Sure, Dwight can be crashing the other side or diving in while Smits posts kind of high, but think about Rodman and how he got in there. Dwight can do that. Dwight was a very adept rebounder. He wasn't as nuts as someone like Shaq, but the edge for Shaq was probably Moses Malone self rebounds. Accounting for era, Dwight was up there at the top or close, and while he played w/ spacers at his best, he never played with a good PG or a good slashing defense drawer. He got Kobe and Harden, but it's my opinion that he really needed that kind of player as a younger player, and having a pg - pf combo is different than having one guy who is a primary scorer, in terms of rebounding. You have to admit that if Dwight was on those teams instead of Ostertag or even Eaton, they would have been body snatching. It would have changed the whole dynamic. Like I said, garbage buckets. Lets people go harder to the rack cuz they know. Not that Ostertag or Eaton were bad, but Dwight is just a garbage bucket / roller. The fact that they gave him touches and he could get work in was just proof of what he could do inside. He didn't really have 'moves.' He'd be able to draw plenty of fouls though and I don't recall him struggling against many people other than old fat Shaq and I think that was more of a mental thing (like when Shaq passed between his legs and back cut him for the score.) That's another thing, putting him on a team w/ o a cold blooded 'u soft' guy like Kobe or a cancer like Harden... a real winning organization like Utah, Phx, or Seattle would have been great for his development.

Regardless of all of this talk, which is admittedly hypothetical bullshit, I am now sure my opinion is Dwight would NOT be a PF in the 90s, or any era. He just brings too much around the basket, plus he blocks shots. He'd pair well with an ATG PF not an ATG C, and that is the proof, to me.

-Smak

go watch Eaton and tell me he wasn't bad. :facepalm

[L.Kizzle]

go watch Eaton and tell me he wasn't bad. :facepalm

Bad at what? He did what he was supposed to so, block shots at a high rate.

[3ba11]

boom.. somebody gets it - guys like Dwight and Giannis would be PF's in the 90's.. Giannis would basically only be a dunker back then - maybe a better version of Larry Nance

[Xiao Yao You]

Bad at what? He did what he was supposed to so, block shots at a high rate.

He could stand with his arms up. If you came right at him with him facing you he could block it. Any deception and he was useless. If not for Frank Layden he would have never seen the floor of an NBA game

[Im Still Ballin]

boom.. somebody gets it - guys like Dwight and Giannis would be PF's in the 90's.. Giannis would basically only be a dunker back then - maybe a better version of Larry Nance

Wouldn't Giannis be more like a mix of David Robinson and Larry Nance? The tighter dribbling, carrying, and traveling rules would definitely limit his face-up dribble penetration. He'd operate more out of the high post like Robinson did.

I think Dwight would fare better because he had a robust back-to-the-basket game. And was bigger, stronger, and more physical than Giannis.