Jermaine O’Neal had MORE All Star selections than Reggie Miller

[Lebron23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpxEhFiqkUk Sucks that injuries ruined his career in his late 20's.. Hopefully the Pacers retire his jersey number

[Lebron23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPutI80grXE

[L.Kizzle]

Also had a higher peak with a top 3 MVP and All-NBA 2nd Team selection while leading Pacers to 61 victories (best in the league in 2004.)

[Kblaze8855]

All star voting East guards for Reggie’s age 25 to 28 seasons(so…prime)




EAST





GUARDS
TM

VOTES


Michael Jordan
CHI
S
1,217,429


Isiah Thomas
DET

493,414


Joe Dumars
DET
S
391,638


Reggie Lewis
BOS

227,570


Muggsy Bogues
CHA

219,615


Ledell Eackles
WAS

197,530


Alvin Robertson
MIL
R
162,421


Mark Price
CLE

159,697


Doc Rivers
ATL

140,909


Maurice Cheeks
NY

138,686










EAST





GUARDS
TM

VOTES


Michael Jordan
CHI
S
1,049,573


Isiah Thomas
DET
S
549,546


Michael Adams
WAS
R
489,291


Reggie Miller
IND

301,701


John Paxson
CHI

226,930


Kenny Anderson
NJ

205,647


Dee Brown
BOS

199,468


Mark Jackson
NY

176,122


Reggie Lewis
BOS
R
152,158


Joe Dumars
DET
R
144,202











EAST





GUARDS
TM

VOTES


Michael Jordan
CHI
S
1,035,824


Isiah Thomas
DET
S
397,747


Jeff Hornacek
PHI

346,793


Mark Price
CLE
R
327,964


Muggsy Bogues
CHA

284,838


Reggie Lewis
BOS

214,372


Joe Dumars
DET
R
181,253


Drazen Petrovic
NJ

151,239


Reggie Miller
IND

126,515


Nick Anderson
ORL

126,067







EAST





GUARDS
TM

VOTES


BJ Armstrong
CHI
S
529,065


Kenny Anderson
NJ
S
493,690


Mark Price
CLE
R
423,179


Stacey Augmon
ATL

401,703


Mookie Blaylock
ATL
R
390,433


Nick Anderson
ORL

361,200


Isiah Thomas
DET

358,736


Joe Dumars
DET

340,581


Jeff Hornacek
PHI

327,965


Derek Harper
DAL-NY

313,679

[Kblaze8855]

The way people who largely either didn’t exist or were four at the time talk you would imagine the much more knowledgeable coaches would rectify such an “error” but no. The coaches poll took Mookie, Hersey Hawkins, Alvin Robertson, Michael Adams, and Ricky Pierce.

The fans and the coaches were simply not as impressed as people not around at the time would think.

[L.Kizzle]

Reggie has literally become the most overrated player EVER.
Interesting little tibit. His first year eligible for the Hall of Fame, he didn't make the ballot. He didn't even get enough vote just to be on the ballot to not get picked.

[pandiani17]

Jermaine O'Neal was one of my favorite players in the early 2000s. He completely dominated the Eastern Conference frontcourt players (Mutombo, Marcus Camby, Ben Wallace, Ilgauskas, Antoine Walker, Kenyon Martin, etc.) between 2000-2005, then he had a bad injury and became a shell of his former self. I don't think the Pacers will retire his jersey, though, his name is associated with the Palace brawl and they don't want to know anything about what happened there.

And moving to Reggie Miller it's crazy the amount of disrespect he got from opposing coaches, I am glad he made them pay for it come playoff time. For me, if you count the playoffs, he was the third best SG of the 90s behind MJ and Drexler.

[FultzNationRISE]

The way people who largely either didn’t exist or were four at the time talk you would imagine the much more knowledgeable coaches would rectify such an “error” but no. The coaches poll took Mookie, Hersey Hawkins, Alvin Robertson, Michael Adams, and Ricky Pierce.

The fans and the coaches were simply not as impressed as people not around at the time would think.


People rarely receive an accurate assessment in the moment.

Nobody thought MJ was the GOAT when he was 25-28. That narrative came along way after. A lot of people didnt consider Tom Brady the GOAT until he won somewhere besides New England at 42 years old.

When youre ahead of your time, you rarely get full appreciation at the time youre active.

People now look at how far ahead of his time Reggie was, and probably fault his team for not using him better, rather than him for not being dominant enough. Guys who played like Miller became more and more dominant with time, which is a big reason Miller’s value has appreciated in hindsight.

[Kblaze8855]

A lot of people thought Jordan was the greatest of all time when he was 25 to 28. Not like one or two. Him being the best player anyone had ever seen was a fairly common thing to hear. And it was like 2003 or 2004 on here when people would be downright upset if you didn’t have Tom Brady as the greatest of all time. I was in those arguments.

A bunch of people born in 1995 simply do not have a better idea who was great in 1992 than the coaches from 1992. They just don’t. Even if a modern fan knows and loves Reggie from clips and reading about him it doesn’t do shit to tell him about Alvin Robertson or the other guards being evaluated at the time.

Guy is just much bigger in retrospect when we are decades removed from fans wondering why he wasn’t doing anything than he was at the time. It happens. It’s rare but it does happen.

People get blown up by stories, clips, and narratives. Pippen is talked about more than David Robinson these days and he was a gigantic deal at the time.

People paint the past the way they wanted it to be because so many don’t know what it was.

[FultzNationRISE]

A lot of people thought Jordan was the greatest of all time when he was 25 to 28.

That was just Lebron haters, they did not actually believe that.

[Im Still Ballin]

The truth stings like Muhammad Ali.

[L.Kizzle]

People rarely receive an accurate assessment in the moment.

Nobody thought MJ was the GOAT when he was 25-28. That narrative came along way after. A lot of people didnt consider Tom Brady the GOAT until he won somewhere besides New England at 42 years old.

When youre ahead of your time, you rarely get full appreciation at the time youre active.

People now look at how far ahead of his time Reggie was, and probably fault his team for not using him better, rather than him for not being dominant enough. Guys who played like Miller became more and more dominant with time, which is a big reason Miller’s value has appreciated in hindsight.
Nobody catapults David Thompson to the top for being a front-runner.

[ShawkFactory]

People rarely receive an accurate assessment in the moment.

Nobody thought MJ was the GOAT when he was 25-28. That narrative came along way after. A lot of people didnt consider Tom Brady the GOAT until he won somewhere besides New England at 42 years old.

When youre ahead of your time, you rarely get full appreciation at the time youre active.

People now look at how far ahead of his time Reggie was, and probably fault his team for not using him better, rather than him for not being dominant enough. Guys who played like Miller became more and more dominant with time, which is a big reason Miller’s value has appreciated in hindsight.

I think that one was pretty much sealed after 28-3. You might have had a couple haters or contrarians who would claim otherwise but those people likely never would be convinced anyway.

[tpols]

People rarely receive an accurate assessment in the moment.

Nobody thought MJ was the GOAT when he was 25-28. That narrative came along way after. A lot of people didnt consider Tom Brady the GOAT until he won somewhere besides New England at 42 years old.

When youre ahead of your time, you rarely get full appreciation at the time youre active.

People now look at how far ahead of his time Reggie was, and probably fault his team for not using him better, rather than him for not being dominant enough. Guys who played like Miller became more and more dominant with time, which is a big reason Miller’s value has appreciated in hindsight.


Not only that but those are all regular season awards, where as Reggie was known to step his game up in the playoffs... production and clutch wise.

It's like Westbrook winning MVP over Curry and Lebron, or one of the million other examples of a regular season award winner not being nearly as good as the players he beat for it.

Embiid getting MVP over Jokic last year is another great example.

Appeal to authority... never gets old.

[tpols]

Also had a higher peak with a top 3 MVP and All-NBA 2nd Team selection while leading Pacers to 61 victories (best in the league in 2004.)

The Pacers in 2004 made the ECFs... only time they made it that far with Jermaine as best player.

The Pacers with Reggie as their best playoff performer made the ECFs 4 times and the Finals once. Their playoff successes and productions aren't even close.

Using All Star games to determine how good someone is might be the weakest way of evaluating a player to player comparison.

[Kblaze8855]

Not only that but those are all regular season awards, where as Reggie was known to step his game up in the playoffs... production and clutch wise.

It's like Westbrook winning MVP over Curry and Lebron, or one of the million other examples of a regular season award winner not being nearly as good as the players he beat for it.

Embiid getting MVP over Jokic last year is another great example.

Appeal to authority... never gets old.


Nor do those people who were in their fathers balls talking about who deserved what in a league they didn’t see one second of. You wouldn’t know Ricky Pierce if he knocked on your door right now, and walked in wearing his jersey. But you feel more qualified to decide who deserved what because you like one guy you see in clips and a little bit of as a preteen and read some numbers. You don’t know if Ricky Pierce was left-handed or right handed. You don’t know if he can dribble. You don’t know if he played defense, you don’t know shit about this person or most of the people the coaches in the league had to choose. You’re just so stuck on the idea that nobody can have relevant information that makes them more credible than you that you can’t be real about your lack of understanding.

you don’t know a ****ing thing about the guard play in 1992 that you didn’t Google, but feel the opinions of people watching every game and running teams while designing game plans can’t possibly use that perspective to build a more informed opinion than you have.

A more rational person might acknowledge they are lacking in information compared to the other group, but still have a right to reach a different conclusion. It’s true. You have every right to think whatever you want about 1992, but as a simple matter of fact you don’t know what the **** you’re talking about compared to the people in question.

You just don’t. Even the people in question don’t know 1992 as well today as they knew it in 1992.

You don’t know who was better between Reggie and Ricky Pierce at his peak because you only know anything about one of them but you are so sure the people who do know both got their evaluation wrong you call the mere acknowledgement that they have additional information an appeal to authority. Your position is as usual appealing to your ass because that’s where all the information you have about all these people comes from.

Simple fact is that some people know more than other people about some subjects. On this subject, you know less than I do because you can’t remember the people in question. I know less than the coaches do because what I saw was a a distance and in bits and pieces. Both them and I know less about the time in question now, then we knew then because everything but the sharpness of our memories has stayed the same. You just don’t have the emotional maturity to acknowledge that anybody is more informed than you are. The whole concept seems offensive to you.

I know a lot of people know more than me. If they didn’t, how would I ever learn anything? On the subject of basketball 30 years ago? You are absolutely not one of them.

[L.Kizzle]

Not only that but those are all regular season awards, where as Reggie was known to step his game up in the playoffs... production and clutch wise.

It's like Westbrook winning MVP over Curry and Lebron, or one of the million other examples of a regular season award winner not being nearly as good as the players he beat for it.

Embiid getting MVP over Jokic last year is another great example.

Appeal to authority... never gets old.
Reggie avg 2 more points in the playoffs then regular season on 2 more shit attempts and a lower field goal percentage.
I actually think Reg is a Hall of Famer, but he gets ranked ridiculously high. He's in a lot of people top 50 or right outside of it.
When the original top 50 came out on 1997 (his 10th season) he didn't sniff the list. But 30 years later, he's now top 50.

[L.Kizzle]

The Pacers in 2004 made the ECFs... only time they made it that far with Jermaine as best player.

The Pacers with Reggie as their best playoff performer made the ECFs 4 times and the Finals once. Their playoff successes and productions aren't even close.

Using All Star games to determine how good someone is might be the weakest way of evaluating a player to player comparison.
I think Reggie is better than JO, just saying what happened in the past. Reggie got left of the All-Star team in favor for teammate Detlef Schrempf one season. That would be the equivalent of Clyde being left off over Cliff Robinson. Speaking of Clyde, I've seen recent All-Time list that have Reggie over Clyde Drexler.
In what season was he EVER better than Clyde. Maybe Clyde's last season in the league would be his only season better than Drexler ... and hell Clyde last season in 98 was 18/6/5. Reggie in 98 was 19/2/3. Make is make sense.

[tpols]

You post a list where BJ Armstrong is considered better than Reggie by your criteria when one averaged 14/2/2 in a 2nd round loss as a tertiary option and the other as his teams best player led his team to the ECFs on 24/3/3 and you think that makes it legit? Just because I'm not as old as you? Thats totally absurd.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Yes, and Miller was extremely underrated in his time. Many such players exist.

[tpols]

I think Reggie is better than JO, just saying what happened in the past. Reggie got left of the All-Star team in favor for teammate Detlef Schrempf one season. That would be the equivalent of Clyde being left off over Cliff Robinson. Speaking of Clyde, I've seen recent All-Time list that have Reggie over Clyde Drexler.
In what season was he EVER better than Clyde. Maybe Clyde's last season in the league would be his only season better than Drexler ... and hell Clyde last season in 98 was 18/6/5. Reggie in 98 was 19/2/3. Make is make sense.

It doesn't mean anything though when you look at playoff performances.

Reggie destroyed a lot of those guys in the playoffs impact and play wise even though they got voted over him. (not talking Clyde but the others)

Dropping 29/4/3 on Shaq and Penny in a 1994 win and coaches voted BJ Armstrong in over him.

It's a meaningless criteria.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

The way people who largely either didn’t exist or were four at the time talk you would imagine the much more knowledgeable coaches would rectify such an “error” but no. The coaches poll took Mookie, Hersey Hawkins, Alvin Robertson, Michael Adams, and Ricky Pierce.

The fans and the coaches were simply not as impressed as people not around at the time would think.



Underrated players fly under the radar sometimes. Likewise, players can get overrated.

Rafael Palmeiro won a Gold Glove at First Base despite only having 28 games worth of reps that year.

It happens.

[Kblaze8855]

I didn’t say a word about fan voting deciding who is better at basketball. And for the record coach voting doesn’t necessarily decide it either. It’s just evidence of the opinion of much closer observers than you or I. I said you don’t know what you’re talking about because you don’t. You can’t evaluate the games of these people. And if you could you couldn’t do it specifically for 1992. Shit I couldn’t do it specifically for 1992 and I watched more in 1992 than I watch right now. Especially the Central division. Those games were on TV all the time in my area. I watched 1992 Reggie Miller play more than I’ve ever seen Haliburton play. But it was 30 ****ing years ago. I certainly don’t know how people were playing as well today as I did then, so it’s amazing listening to people talk about it who don’t even remember that much.

I don’t agree with everything I could find a coach saying about 1992 in 1992, but I can acknowledge in my disagreement that I’m speaking from a position of less knowledge about the situation. I have absolutely no trouble with acknowledging there are more informed people than I. That feels like an issue to you. Like the mere acknowledgment opens you up to too much questioning. I’m comfortable with a lot of things. I’m comfortable admitting the fact that some people know more than I do about some things and I’m also comfortable with disagreeing, despite having less knowledge. None of these things are facts. Just more and less informed opinions.

I have a less informed opinion right now about 1992 than the assembled coaching staffs of the NBA did in 1992. Do you think that is not the case with you? You can’t acknowledge that you have an opinion that goes against people with more information than you have about a subject? Is it troublesome to you?

[Kblaze8855]

It doesn't mean anything though when you look at playoff performances.

Reggie destroyed a lot of those guys in the playoffs impact and play wise even though they got voted over him. (not talking Clyde but the others)

Dropping 29/4/3 on Shaq and Penny in a 1994 win and coaches voted BJ Armstrong in over him.

It's a meaningless criteria.

The fans voted BJ over Reggie the coaches voted Mark Price, Mookie Blaylock, and John Starks. Two of those three likely because basketball people value defense more than fans ever have then or now.

[tpols]

I have a less informed opinion right now about 1992 than the assembled coaching staffs of the NBA did in 1992. Do you think that is not the case with you? You can’t acknowledge that you have an opinion that goes against people with more information than you have about a subject? Is it troublesome to you?


It's not troublesome to me because hindsight is 20/20 and a lot of their opinions ended up being wrong.

It's like a fantasy football nerd (like myself) who studies who to select with a ton of research and then my top guy underperforms or gets hurt and somebody else in the league who doesn't give a **** ends up haphazardly drafting the MVP of the league in the 2nd or 3rd round.

You can be more informed and still end up wrong.

[Reggie43]

Was never a fan of Jermaine because of his demeanor and shot selection ( Iirc he took more midrange shots than Dirk at one point) but he was an MVP caliber talent that played elite defense, a great athlete and a good scorer who could have been better if he was disciplined enough.

Loved how he played defense though, protecting the rim and blocking shots as good as anyone at the time. Him and Artest were both headcases to me but Jermaine was the one who tried to change and make it work.

[Kblaze8855]

Selecting who you think is playing the best in February 1992 doesn’t change in retrospect when one of them gets hurt in 1996. A different legacy doesn’t make anyone wrong before the things happen to shape it. Hell not even then. All star voting isn’t a prediction of things to come.

[Kblaze8855]

Was never a fan of Jermaine because of his demeanor and shot selection ( Iirc he took more midrange shots than Dirk at one point) but he was an MVP caliber talent that played elite defense, a great athlete and a good scorer who could have been better if he was disciplined enough.

Loved how he played defense though, protecting the rim and blocking shots as good as anyone at the time. Him and Artest were both headcases to me but Jermaine was the one who tried to change and make it work.


I didn’t care for him much as time went on. I remember some raptor fans calling me out because when he went to Toronto I said I have never been more certain I don’t need to fear a pair of stars on one team then I did the combo of Jermaine O’Neal and Chris bosh. Something along those lines. They were very annoyed.

Considering defense, he’s likely a better total player than Reggie, but Reggie would fit more into the kind of team I would want to build both back in the day and now.

Id take Reggie for my team and obviously as the top Pacer even if not the best total player of the game. Assuming he didn’t go full Harden with the ref baiting I would much prefer to have Reggie right now than Jermaine O’Neal.

[FultzNationRISE]

Was never a fan of Jermaine because of his demeanor and shot selection ( Iirc he took more midrange shots than Dirk at one point) but he was an MVP caliber talent that played elite defense, a great athlete and a good scorer who could have been better if he was disciplined enough.

Loved how he played defense though, protecting the rim and blocking shots as good as anyone at the time. Him and Artest were both headcases to me but Jermaine was the one who tried to change and make it work.

Yeah the years between MJ and Lebron were def the league’s most ghetto, which not coincidentally I was also at my most ghetto as a late adolescent, but ironically it was the era I paid attention to the NBA the least. Tho I do distinctly remember when I did catch the Pacers, seeing JO miss a lot of midrange isolations and wondering what all the hype around the guy was for. I dont think he was a bad guy or anything, just young and probably a bit overbilled relative to where he actually was as a player. Altho he was a legit defender as you point out ofc.

But yeah, as humans we tend to generalize, and at that time people saw a tall iso player with corn rows and a head band like JO, and just assume this dude must be a serious baller. That was where people thought the game was legitimately headed at that time. The AI, Darius Miles, Ricky Davis era of rockin baggy clothes, throwin up bad shots, and droppin a gang sign if it goes in. That was like, what people associated with… quality basketball ability :lol

So it’s not really surprising the perception of JO was greater than the substance.

[Xiao Yao You]

How loaded were the Blazers for O'Neal to not be able to get off the deep bench

[Reggie43]

I didn’t care for him much as time went on. I remember some raptor fans calling me out because when he went to Toronto I said I have never been more certain I don’t need to fear a pair of stars on one team then I did the combo of Jermaine O’Neal and Chris bosh. Something along those lines. They were very annoyed.

Considering defense, he’s likely a better total player than Reggie, but Reggie would fit more into the kind of team I would want to build both back in the day and now.

Id take Reggie for my team and obviously as the top Pacer even if not the best total player of the game. Assuming he didn’t go full Harden with the ref baiting I would much prefer to have Reggie right now than Jermaine O’Neal.

Yeah its not that hard to take the smarter more reliable player to build around even against that level of talent.

Jermaine was probably the most talented player in their history, too bad injuries got in the way of him developing into a more complete player. Playing under Isiah and having teammates like Artest, Tinsley, and Sjack certainly didnt help either.

[Reggie43]

Yeah the years between MJ and Lebron were def the league’s most ghetto, which not coincidentally I was also at my most ghetto as a late adolescent, but ironically it was the era I paid attention to the NBA the least. Tho I do distinctly remember when I did catch the Pacers, seeing JO miss a lot of midrange isolations and wondering what all the hype around the guy was for. I dont think he was a bad guy or anything, just young and probably a bit overbilled relative to where he actually was as a player. Altho he was a legit defender as you point out ofc.

But yeah, as humans we tend to generalize, and at that time people saw a tall iso player with corn rows and a head band like JO, and just assume this dude must be a serious baller. That was where people thought the game was legitimately headed at that time. The AI, Darius Miles, Ricky Davis era of rockin baggy clothes, throwin up bad shots, and droppin a gang sign if it goes in. That was like, what people associated with… quality basketball ability :lol

So it’s not really surprising the perception of JO was greater than the substance.

Yeah he was pretty overrated offensively and I really hated those bad shots along with the attitude but still a great player. You dont lead your team to the best record in the league (61 wins) without being good

[L.Kizzle]

Reggie Miller vs Joe Dumars vs Mitch Richmond?

[Xiao Yao You]

Reggie Miller vs Joe Dumars vs Mitch Richmond?

Dumars

[plowking]

Reggie Miller vs Joe Dumars vs Mitch Richmond?

Ritchmond.

And yes - Reggie is one of the most overrated players ever.

O'Neal was similar though. I still remember him being on the Heat and shooting like 1/13 in the playoffs. I hate that mfer for that.