Was Steve Nash the best offensive player of his generation? | Offensive Legends Ep 4.

[Im Still Ballin]

Been waiting for this one!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7TlCOgIig&pp=ygUYbmJhIGlsbGVnYWwgZGVmZW5zZSBydWxl

[ILLsmak]

Sounds wack, but I ain't watchin that... now at least, but I was watching those Suns teams awhile ago, just threw a game on from when they had Amare health and JJ etc. Nash was crazy. His ability to dribble under the rim and some of the passes he made... I def underrated him. I was a Nash hater esp cuz he took an MVP from Shaq, but can't hate on his ability. Def one of the best pgs.

-Smak

[Im Still Ballin]

Sounds wack, but I ain't watchin that... now at least, but I was watching those Suns teams awhile ago, just threw a game on from when they had Amare health and JJ etc. Nash was crazy. His ability to dribble under the rim and some of the passes he made... I def underrated him. I was a Nash hater esp cuz he took an MVP from Shaq, but can't hate on his ability. Def one of the best pgs.

-Smak

Another great post.

[iamgine]

Yea Nash was really one of those "eye test special". His basic or advanced stats were not MVP worthy. You gotta see him play to understand why he was the true MVP.

[FultzNationRISE]

Uhh, no? Lebron was.

NEXT QUESTION.

[plowking]

Never gets put into the conversations he should.

There is always this weird assumption that Payton and Paul, just as an example, were better than him.

Absolutely not. He was a better player than both.

[ILLsmak]

Never gets put into the conversations he should.

There is always this weird assumption that Payton and Paul, just as an example, were better than him.

Absolutely not. He was a better player than both.

he def threw more lasers than both of them combined. Some guys a highlight vid doesn't do them justice... you just have to watch a full game. CP3 is overrated, but I think GP might be underrated. Not sure how that hypothetical goes, but I am pretty sure most atg in their prime would body Paul in a playoff series, until he punched them in the nutz.

-Smak

[WhiteKyrie]

Nobody is one of the greatest for generals offensively ever. Especially once he was unlocked in D’Antoni system.

[Baller234]

It was a combination of right player, right system.

Nash went from being a good player in Dallas to a great player in Phoenix after just one season. Nobody on Earth had Nash on their radar like that. I can only imagine what his preseason MVP odds were, if he was even on the board to begin with.

[WhiteKyrie]

Never gets put into the conversations he should.

There is always this weird assumption that Payton and Paul, just as an example, were better than him.

Absolutely not. He was a better player than both.

No, absolutely not.

GP and CP3 were absolutely both better players. No one put Mark Price over Gary Payton. Chris Paul was Steve Nash but a better scorer with superior quickness and vastly superior defense. I say that, and I love Steve Nash. But, no.

Defense still does matter. It’s an entire side of the floor. It can’t be ignored.

Nash: 14 ppg 3 rpg 9 apg, All Traffic Cone

Forgotten 90s PGs:

Price: 15 ppg 3 rpg 7 apg
Strickland: 13 ppg 4 rpg 7 apg
KJ: 18 ppg 3 rpg 9 apg
T. Hardaway: 18 ppg 3 rpg 8 apg

Better than Nash and played defense:

Stockton: 13 ppg 3 rpg 11 apg, 5x All Defense
GP: 16 ppg 4 rpg 7 apg, 9x All Defense
Kidd: 13 ppg 6 rpg 9 apg, 9x All Defense
CP3: 18 ppg 5 rpg 10 apg, 9x All Defense

Just some all timer comparisons.

CP3 is the 4th best PG ever. Just never got a chip. But neither did any of these guys as a superstar and their teams best player. And if he doesn’t pull his hammy CP3 leads the Rockets over the 2018 Warriors and wins a chip. Doesn’t get covid or injured again in 2021, and almost won a chip that season too.

1) Magic
2) Curry
3) Zeke
4) CP3

And argue 5th and beyond. That’s why his MVPs are so cheap, he has two of them, and that the best you could argue him at the fifth spot, but in isolation he’s not the fifth best point guard ever.

Shaq should’ve been MVP in 2005.
Kobe should’ve been MVP in 2006.

Now, I’d argue Steve Nash should’ve been MVP in 2007. Statistically, it was a better season than his two MVP years, but it is exclusively a regular season award, so I understand why they gave it to Dirk. But him having 2x MVPs and Shaq and Kobe only one, is retarded.

[1987_Lakers]

lol at thinking GP was better than Nash.

Nash was a damn magician on the court. Never saw a better passer in my life, he transformed the Suns into title contenders, without him they were average at best. What gets underrated about his game was his ability to take over a game with his scoring when needed, dude could get buckets. Yea, he didn't play defense, but he was a point guard. I'd much rather have a PG who is a liability on defense than say a Center.

If we are talking strictly offense, Nash is the 3rd greatest offensive point guard since the merger, right behind Curry & Magic.

[WhiteKyrie]

But that’s cause you’re stupid. If you have a great defensive PG he can disrupt the other teams entire ability to set and make plays comfortably. Why? He’s guarding the other teams basketball quarter back smh. Nash is definitely better than GP offensively, but the level of disparity on the other side of the ball is far greater. In a vacuum, it’s not even an argument, GP is easily the better individual player. Easily. Nash was a good player on Dallas. Good, not great. D’Antoni put him on steroids and that whole team pioneered the now post modern way of playing with pace and space and three point shooting. It put his stats on steroids.

[1987_Lakers]

But that’s cause you’re stupid. If you have a great defensive PG he can disrupt the other teams entire ability to set and make plays comfortably. Why? He’s guarding the other teams basketball quarter back smh. Nash is definitely better than GP offensively, but the level of disparity on the other side of the ball is far greater. In a vacuum, it’s not even an argument, GP is easily the better individual player. Easily. Nash was a good player on Dallas. Good, not great. D’Antoni put him on steroids and that whole team pioneered the now post modern way of playing with pace and space and three point shooting. It put his stats on steroids.

GP wasn't even as impactful of a defender as Jason Kidd. Kidd could guard more positions and was a better help/team defender. GP was an excellent man defender, but point guards who play elite defense don't necessarily transform teams on the defensive end, they are simply too small. The defensive game changers have always been bigger men.

I haven't seen much of the '96 Sonics, but I've seen old heads swear that Shawn Kemp was a more impactful defender than GP that season. In the end, what Nash brought to the offensive end destroys anything GP ever brought to the offensive or defensive end, he led his teams to historic offensive seasons.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Nash is at worst the third best offensive PG of all time. Matador or not, he is a Top 30 player OAT. If his teams played in the East from ‘00-‘10 he’d have made multiple finals and probably snuck a title. Unfortunate to peak in a time when conference disparity was at its greatest.

[Reggie43]

A product of the rule changes and his teams system. Im not sure why guys are still overrating him and acting like he is that much better than his peers/ same tier like Payton, Kidd, KJ etc.

[999Guy]

30 minute breakdown of Nash being the best shooter, passer, and ball handler in the world simultaneously and stupid fans to this day would rather talk about Wade or Kobe as best guard of that era because of PPGz.

Ah, NBA fans and media.

[Baller234]

Shaq should’ve been MVP in 2005.
Kobe should’ve been MVP in 2006.

It's tough. Nash doesn't thrive without D'Antoni but I think the reverse is also true. He was uniquely equipped to run that system. It's not like the league was overflowing with genius passers who could run and gun and also shoot the lights out.

I don't put stock in media awards, but if we're going to play along, then yea I think you kinda have to give Nash the trophy. The Suns were the story that season. Best record in the league and in a much tougher conference. You can't give D'Antoni coach of the year and not give MVP to Nash. Without Nash none of it works.

[tpols]

No, absolutely not.

GP and CP3 were absolutely both better players. No one put Mark Price over Gary Payton. Chris Paul was Steve Nash but a better scorer with superior quickness and vastly superior defense. I say that, and I love Steve Nash. But, no.

Defense still does matter. It’s an entire side of the floor. It can’t be ignored.

Nash: 14 ppg 3 rpg 9 apg, All Traffic Cone

Forgotten 90s PGs:

Price: 15 ppg 3 rpg 7 apg
Strickland: 13 ppg 4 rpg 7 apg
KJ: 18 ppg 3 rpg 9 apg
T. Hardaway: 18 ppg 3 rpg 8 apg

Better than Nash and played defense:

Stockton: 13 ppg 3 rpg 11 apg, 5x All Defense
GP: 16 ppg 4 rpg 7 apg, 9x All Defense
Kidd: 13 ppg 6 rpg 9 apg, 9x All Defense
CP3: 18 ppg 5 rpg 10 apg, 9x All Defense

Just some all timer comparisons.

CP3 is the 4th best PG ever. Just never got a chip. But neither did any of these guys as a superstar and their teams best player. And if he doesn’t pull his hammy CP3 leads the Rockets over the 2018 Warriors and wins a chip. Doesn’t get covid or injured again in 2021, and almost won a chip that season too.

1) Magic
2) Curry
3) Zeke
4) CP3

And argue 5th and beyond. That’s why his MVPs are so cheap, he has two of them, and that the best you could argue him at the fifth spot, but in isolation he’s not the fifth best point guard ever.

Shaq should’ve been MVP in 2005.
Kobe should’ve been MVP in 2006.

Now, I’d argue Steve Nash should’ve been MVP in 2007. Statistically, it was a better season than his two MVP years, but it is exclusively a regular season award, so I understand why they gave it to Dirk. But him having 2x MVPs and Shaq and Kobe only one, is retarded.

Nah bro...

Steve Nash had balls chris Paul lacks. He led #1 ranked offenses for many years... some of the best offenses of all time statistically, and upped his game in the playoffs.

The Suns should've been Champs in 2007 but stern screwed them. Chris Paul was a notorious choker. On paper he's better, but in reality he's worse.

[ArbitraryWater]

Shaq should’ve been MVP in 2005.
Kobe should’ve been MVP in 2006.

Now, I’d argue Steve Nash should’ve been MVP in 2007. Statistically, it was a better season than his two MVP years, but it is exclusively a regular season award, so I understand why they gave it to Dirk. But him having 2x MVPs and Shaq and Kobe only one, is retarded.


:oldlol:

[Real Men Wear Green]

Steve Nash is the same generation as Shaq, right? Then the answer is very easily, "no." Not entirely his fault but his first two years in Phoenix he did nothing. First two years in Dallas were more nothing. The last 4 years in Dallas he became a good player and allstar but was certainly not elite. The second stint in Phoenix is what this is about. And he was first team AllNBA 3 times, mvp twice. Certainly a great career but to be the best offensive player of your generation you should have GOAT credentials and Nash does not. We've seen him get outplayed in a playoff series head-to-head by Mike Bibby. He's never made the Finals. Certainly not a playoff choker but that's related to him him not dominating a conference Finals. Is there a postseason after which Nash was thought of as the consensus best player in the league? And a lot of this comes down to scoring, a significant part of being the "best offensive player." We all think he could have scored more points if he was of that mindset but the important fact is that he didn't.

How can you be the best offensive player of your generation when you never averaged 20 points or led your team to the finals? Those mvp years he was great but his overall career just doesn't meet that standard.

[ArbitraryWater]

Where is the recent thread where Paytons on/off was mentioned?

[FultzNationRISE]

A product of the rule changes and his teams system. Im not sure why guys are still overrating him and acting like he is that much better than his peers/ same tier like Payton, Kidd, KJ etc.


Altho the play styles may differ drastically between all those guys, their impact on an NBA game is all relatively similar. Sure anyone is free to see one or the other as slightly for choice, but there's no measurable, definitive difference between the top guys.

Just as we saw teams full of unheralded guys beat the players considered 'the best in the world' last week, the top level of basketball is far less clear cut than any statistics, media awards, or team achievements could ever accurately portray. We discuss rankings and hierarchies and stuff because we're fans and it's a way to pass the time. But this idea of some linear ranking of players is mostly hogwash.

If someone prefers any one of Payton, Nash, Kidd, you can disagree, but there's no way they can be 'wrong.'

[tpols]

How can you be the best offensive player of your generation when you never averaged 20 points or led your team to the finals? Those mvp years he was great but his overall career just doesn't meet that standard.

How?

By leading the...

1st
2nd
1st
2nd
1st

Best offenses in the league by offensive rank from 2005 to 2010.

Why would you use a disqualifier of 20 ppg for a point guard who mainly passed and enhanced everybody around him? And who had playoff series averaging 20+ ppg many times. That's a silly thing to do.

Nash put up 30/12/7 in the 2005 playoffs vs Dallas in a grudge match. Most people don't know that, but he had a bag.

[dankok8]

https://i.postimg.cc/63Xjssh7/Nash-Insanity.jpg

"By far the best 5-year run of playoff offense in NBA history"

That quote by Ben Taylor sums up the video. Brilliant piece of work as always.

Other than Magic there's no other offensive quarterback you can justify taking over Nash. At least in the last 40 years...

[Real Men Wear Green]

How?

By leading the...

1st
2nd
1st
2nd
1st

Best offenses in the league by offensive rank from 2005 to 2010.

Why would you use a disqualifier of 20 ppg for a point guard who mainly passed and enhanced everybody around him? And who had playoff series averaging 20+ ppg many times. That's a silly thing to do.

Nash put up 30/12/7 in the 2005 playoffs vs Dallas in a grudge match. Most people don't know that, but he had a bag.

I should hope he has at least one good game or series in the playoffs but you're miles away from justifying him being the best player of his generation. We are talking about who is the best offensive player so of course never averaging 20 is important (and no, being a point guard doesn't lessen the importance). Leading great regular season offenses is nice but that didn't matter much in the playoffs. If your team is down by two with 15 seconds on the clock are you taking Nash over everyone else? Because I certainly am not. These kinds of things matter and are why Nash isn't the best offensive player.

[1987_Lakers]

Steve Nash is the same generation as Shaq, right? Then the answer is very easily, "no."

Not saying Nash is the best offensive player of his era, but this is a weird statement. Nash peaked when Shaq started to slow down, they peaked in different eras. Even when many thought Shaq should have been MVP in '05, he wasn't the player he once was.

Anyways, I always found it hilarious how Shaq always says Nash "stole 2 MVPs from me", when in reality, Shaq wasn't close to MVP caliber in 2006.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Not saying Nash is the best offensive player of his era, but this is a weird statement. Nash peaked when Shaq started to slow down, they peaked in different eras. Even when many thought Shaq should have been MVP in '05, he wasn't the player he once was.

Anyways, I always found it hilarious how Shaq always says Nash "stole 2 MVPs from me", when in reality, Shaq wasn't close to MVP caliber in 2006.

Nash played from 96 to 13/14. Shaq played from 92 to 10/11. Those 4 years Mash played at the start of his career where he didn't do much still count especially when Shaq was an elite player the minute he stepped in the floor.

[WhiteKyrie]

Steve Nash is not a better player than Gary Payton. If you want to argue he was a better PG, fine, but even then you'd have to confine it strictly to his run in Phoenix, where his stats were on steroids due to D'Antoni's non championship winning, offensively obsessed style. And as I said, Shaq was MVP in 2005, and Kobe was MVP in 2006. Nash's actual best case for MVP is in 2007. Him having more MVPs than Shaq, Kobe, Durant, and Harden is down right ridiculous. Also, CP3's 2008 > any Nash MVP season. CP3 was the superior player, quite easily. And their career stats and team success backs it up.

[Xiao Yao You]

GP wasn't even as impactful of a defender as Jason Kidd. Kidd could guard more positions and was a better help/team defender. GP was an excellent man defender, but point guards who play elite defense don't necessarily transform teams on the defensive end, they are simply too small. The defensive game changers have always been bigger men.

I haven't seen much of the '96 Sonics, but I've seen old heads swear that Shawn Kemp was a more impactful defender than GP that season. In the end, what Nash brought to the offensive end destroys anything GP ever brought to the offensive or defensive end, he led his teams to historic offensive seasons.

he was a better scorer than Kidd and his brick barrage

[1987_Lakers]

he was a better scorer than Kidd and his brick barrage

Gary Payton wasn't exactly an efficient scorer himself once he became the vocal point of the offense. Only 53 TS% from '98-'02.

[Xiao Yao You]

Gary Payton wasn't exactly an efficient scorer himself once he became the vocal point of the offense. Only 53 TS% from '98-'02.

almost everyone is efficient compared to Kidd

[John8204]

Gary Payton wasn't exactly an efficient scorer himself once he became the vocal point of the offense. Only 53 TS% from '98-'02.

fo·cal
/ˈfōkəl/
adjective
adjective: focal

relating to the center or main point of interest.

I didn't watch the video but the answer is no...he's not even a top ten PG of all-time.

[1987_Lakers]

fo·cal
/ˈfōkəl/
adjective
adjective: focal

relating to the center or main point of interest.

I didn't watch the video but the answer is no...he's not even a top ten PG of all-time.
Vocal still applies, seeing that GP never shut up. :oldlol:

I've seen you say Nate Archibald was better than Nash, a literal retarded statement.

[tpols]

Steve Nash is not a better player than Gary Payton. If you want to argue he was a better PG, fine, but even then you'd have to confine it strictly to his run in Phoenix, where his stats were on steroids due to D'Antoni's non championship winning, offensively obsessed style. And as I said, Shaq was MVP in 2005, and Kobe was MVP in 2006. Nash's actual best case for MVP is in 2007. Him having more MVPs than Shaq, Kobe, Durant, and Harden is down right ridiculous. Also, CP3's 2008 > any Nash MVP season. CP3 was the superior player, quite easily. And their career stats and team success backs it up.



Steve Nash led suns were the #1 offenses even after Dantoni was gone and Alvin Gentry was the coach. They made the WCFs. Only prime Kobe could stop them.

You're better than this coach. This thread is about OFFENSE. Gary Payton isn't even in the same stratosphere.

[John8204]

Vocal still applies, seeing that GP never shut up. :oldlol:

I've seen you say Nate Archibald was better than Nash, a literal retarded statement.

Well he is...he was certainly better offensively than Nash. I mean one was top five in scoring on four different occasions while the other never cracked the top ten. One guy won a scoring title the other played with guys that won scoring titles. One guy won a title...the other guy never made the finals.

But all that is beside the point...the point is it's "focal" not "vocal"

[1987_Lakers]

Well he is...he was certainly better offensively than Nash. I mean one was top five in scoring on four different occasions while the other never cracked the top ten. One guy won a scoring title the other played with guys that won scoring titles. One guy won a title...the other guy never made the finals.

But all that is beside the point...the point is it's "focal" not "vocal"

So by your logic, Archibald was probably a better offensive player than Magic as well right?

3 of the 4 seasons Archibald averaged 25+ points a game, his team had a losing record. His impact wasn't really felt.

Nash in his prime led the Suns to the WCF without Amare in 2006.

[John8204]

So by your logic, Archibald was probably a better offensive player than Magic as well right?

3 of the 4 seasons Archibald averaged 25+ points a game, his team had a losing record. His impact wasn't really felt.

Nash in his prime led the Suns to the WCF without Amare in 2006.

His impact was felt when he left a bad team and then joined a good team and won a ring. Y'know the same thing Oscar, Kidd, and Payton did.

As for Magic or Nate being a better offensive player...meh it's debatable.

Also logic is about consistency...Magic won titles and finished in the top ten of PPG..Steve Nash did in fact not do that.

[1987_Lakers]

As for Magic or Nate being a better offensive player...meh it's debatable.


LOL

[Im Still Ballin]

It's worth mentioning that Phoenix continued to have elite offenses even after D'Antoni left. The 2010 offense was #1 in the league and had one of the highest offensive ratings ever. Even relatively too.

That team played more traditional lineups at times with Robin Lopez. The idea Nash couldn't lead a top-level offense without playing small I don't agree with. The Kurt Thomas lineups talked about in the video also support this notion.

It's also worth mentioning that the 2010-2011 PHX Suns had the #1 offense with Nash on the court. He proved once again he didn't need Stoudemire. That year his main teammates were Channing Frye, Grant Hill (38), Jared Dudley, Marcin Gortat, Hakeem Warrick and 1300 mins from Vince (34).

[Im Still Ballin]

2010-2011 Phoenix Suns:

- Nash ON COURT: 114.3 ORtg*
- Nash OFF COURT: 102.3 ORtg

* Denver's #1 ranked offense was 112.3 ORtg

2009-2010 Phoenix Suns:

- Nash ON COURT: 117.7 ORtg
- Nash OFF COURT: 111.3 ORtg

[warriorfan]

I low key just realized the vid in op is ElGee

I’m gonna have some more to add to this later

Not necessary about this point regarding Nash but in total (probably will end up towards kevin garnett considering KG is the crux to his entire basketball methodology), i’ll expound upon this in later posts.

[dankok8]

I love Gary Payton who I think is underrated historically but Nash is clearly a better player. Payton never really moved the needle on offense and for a PG and any non-big really, individual defense is just way less important than offense.

I don't think y'all understand how insane leading the #1 or #2 offense in the league for 9 consecutive seasons across two teams and multiple coaches really is. And then in the postseason Nash's offenses got EVEN BETTER. What are we talking about here... Nash doesn't just move the needle on offense. The needle snaps lol

[Norcaliblunt]

Give Kobe Nash’s peak Phoenix roster with Phil Jackson as coach.

Give Nash Kobe’s peak (post Shaq) LA roster with D’Antonie as coach.

Who wins? Who’s better? Who’s worse? Who cares?

[ILLsmak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xus2hDQ2mXg

kinda nuts stock v nash vid. Some stupid passes. Haha. Stock hit Polynice w/ the ball, rare you see a dude not ready like that. He still got the score tho. Stock went behind the back. He also went under the rim like Nash and hit a little floating J around mid like Nash, but Nash was banging 3s at the end. Cool vid. I was looking for GP v Nash.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/y6HPOhrU64s

just GP reminding everyone he raised Steve Nash. haha.

DUDES DEF SLEEPIN ON GP THO IN THIS THREAD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8RKYwJ0Vlc

haha, another thread, spamming irrelevant vids. I luv u ISB. That last vid tho... I dunno, that's why it's not really about greats and their opinions on shit, but it's just stories like that how you figure out what's really up.

-Smak