I never said it was all pretty. Just that I enjoyed it more on the whole….

[Kblaze8855]

https://s.imgfi.com/images/IMG_6209.gif


Manning out there calling for the iso post up at 50 feet and walking it down for a missed 13 footer…


I still maintain that such things aside…and ignoring the propensity to give whatever random center you have an early post touch(Looking at you Mr.”Awkward like Cartwright. Shot ugly but my arch right”.)….it was a better game to watch just for entertainment purposes.

[Kblaze8855]

First play of the game back then:

https://s.imgfi.com/images/IMG_6210.gif

Thats just how it was done. Give the big a post touch. Doesn’t matter you have Michael Jordan. Post up a big early to “Get him going” or “Keep him involved”.

I’m not sure when that ended but the last guy I remember always getting that opening couple plays touch down low despite clearly not being the teams best player and usually not getting the ball much more was big Z. Might have just been a Paul Silas old school mentality thing from early in Lebrons career.

Did Mike Brown still give Big Z that token first touch?

[Wardell Curry]

The 2015-2018 Cavs would run a lot of plays for Kevin Love in the first quarter to keep him engaged.

[Im Still Ballin]

The 2015-2018 Cavs would run a lot of plays for Kevin Love in the first quarter to keep him engaged.

This is what I was going to say. Love was decent as post-up player If I recall correctly. But he was better in Minnesota because he had more weight on his frame.

2015-2016: 4 post-up possessions per game; 0.98 PPP (83% percentile)
2016-2017: 4.2 post-up possessions per game; 0.86 PPP (44.7% percentile)
2017-2018: 3.1 post-up possessions per game; 0.98 PPP (78.9% percentile)

[Kblaze8855]

Agreed, but even declined as he was Kevin Love was certainly a somebody. Guys there is no reason to remember used to get early post touches while superstars stood watching on the other side of the court as if that quick missed jump hook was going to set the tone for the rest of the game. People like James Edwards on the Pistons got way more post touches than modern fans would understand. And I’m not even calling him a bad player but if you go back and watch some of those games, he is weirdly focused on now and then, as if an alarm went off somewhere, reminding them to keep the center involved.

You just…had to throw it down there early. Even if the big never got it again. Coaches seem to legitimately believe in the concept of setting the tone with an ugly jump hook. Mutombo got a lot of those touches at one time.

[FultzNationRISE]

First play of the game back then:

https://s.imgfi.com/images/IMG_6210.gif

Thats just how it was done. Give the big a post touch. Doesn’t matter you have Michael Jordan. Post up a big early to “Get him going” or “Keep him involved”.

IÂ’m not sure when that ended but the last guy I remember always getting that opening couple plays touch down low despite clearly not being the teams best player and usually not getting the ball much more was big Z. Might have just been a Paul Silas old school mentality thing from early in Lebrons career.

Did Mike Brown still give Big Z that token first touch?

I think its still fairly common, I do remember the Cavs doing it with Z and Im also pretty sure Lebron continued doing this with Bosh and Love as well, and even to AD to this day.

At least to the extent teams even have a post up big today, I think its still a pretty common approach. You obviously dont go out of your way to do this for Robert Williams, but I think traditional bigs still get the early game look pretty regularly.

[Xiao Yao You]

Agreed, but even declined as he was Kevin Love was certainly a somebody. Guys there is no reason to remember used to get early post touches while superstars stood watching on the other side of the court as if that quick missed jump hook was going to set the tone for the rest of the game. People like James Edwards on the Pistons got way more post touches than modern fans would understand. And I’m not even calling him a bad player but if you go back and watch some of those games, he is weirdly focused on now and then, as if an alarm went off somewhere, reminding them to keep the center involved.

You just…had to throw it down there early. Even if the big never got it again. Coaches seem to legitimately believe in the concept of setting the tone with an ugly jump hook. Mutombo got a lot of those touches at one time.

Edwards got post touches because they were a perimeter oriented team before they got Dantley/Aquirre and to a lesser extent Edwards

[Kblaze8855]

That’s 2.5 Hall of Famer‘s though. They would get the ball on merit. I’m talking about going out of your way to give Dale Davis a deep post touch when he’s the fifth best scorer on the floor. Just on general principle. I’m guessing we are done with that forever.

[Kblaze8855]

Edwards got post touches because they were a perimeter oriented team before they got Dantley/Aquirre and to a lesser extent Edwards


A fan who only knew the bad boys of that era by reputation, and the big names would be flabbergasted actually watching them play. But that’s the case with a lot of teams back then. everyone getting the ball was normal and when it became more of an iso game, a lot of people didn’t like it. Even guys with the reputation of being ball hogs would just stand out of the way while people completely forgotten to history would get the ball over and over. James Edwards got more plays called for him than Isiah Thomas a lot of the time and nobody even knows who he is.

[Xiao Yao You]

A fan who only knew the bad boys of that era by reputation, and the big names would be flabbergasted actually watching them play. But that’s the case with a lot of teams back then. everyone getting the ball was normal and when it became more of an iso game, a lot of people didn’t like it. Even guys with the reputation of being ball hogs would just stand out of the way while people completely forgotten to history would get the ball over and over. James Edwards got more plays called for him than Isiah Thomas a lot of the time and nobody even knows who he is.

Thomas only scored a few more points a game in 10 more minutes a night on worse efficiency for a couple of years

[tpols]

That's why a lot of great teams had better chemistry back then, otherwise you may as well just let your top 2 guys take 50 shots per game. That's not sustainable against a great team because you would be burning your stars out and giving no juice or confidence to the role players.

Reminds me of Devin Booker and Durant in the playoffs last year. They went nuts but didn't involve "the others". Chris Paul involved the others but once he got hurt it all went to shit.

[Kblaze8855]

While I agree it builds better total teams it’s only a disadvantage when there are a few talented teams doing it in a sea of analytic driven “Feed the star.” teams like the rockets with Harden or the Mavs with Luka pre Kyrie. If everyone goes that path shit ball will win because it will be the only ball.

The warriors got lucky having a slow start so underpaid superstar, a salary cap explosion to soften signing guys back and making additions like KD who was only possible because of the rights deal of 2015, and a coach bred and practiced in the old share the ball fashion. They had talent and a coach to push it to play old school together with new school shooting.

That won’t happen often.

[Xiao Yao You]

That's why a lot of great teams had better chemistry back then, otherwise you may as well just let your top 2 guys take 50 shots per game. That's not sustainable against a great team because you would be burning your stars out and giving no juice or confidence to the role players.

Reminds me of Devin Booker and Durant in the playoffs last year. They went nuts but didn't involve "the others". Chris Paul involved the others but once he got hurt it all went to shit.

the over the hill Jazz sweeping the much hyped Lakers was a great example of team over individuals

[FultzNationRISE]

While I agree it builds better total teams it’s only a disadvantage when there are a few talented teams doing it in a sea of analytic driven “Feed the star.” teams like the rockets with Harden or the Mavs with Luka pre Kyrie. If everyone goes that path shit ball will win because it will be the only ball.

The warriors got lucky having a slow start so underpaid superstar, a salary cap explosion to soften signing guys back and making additions like KD who was only possible because of the rights deal of 2015, and a coach bred and practiced in the old share the ball fashion. They had talent and a coach to push it to play old school together with new school shooting.

That won’t happen often.


Yeah, ofc you can achieve this kind of holistic affect by having someone like Lebron James on your team. The problem is just that hes a one-in-ten-generations type of guy.

So if your star player doesnt really “get it” then you also need to have a savvy glue guy like Pip, plus a premeditated coach like PJax.

[FilmyCogTurner]

First play of the game back then:

https://s.imgfi.com/images/IMG_6210.gif

Thats just how it was done. Give the big a post touch. Doesn’t matter you have Michael Jordan. Post up a big early to “Get him going” or “Keep him involved”.

I’m not sure when that ended but the last guy I remember always getting that opening couple plays touch down low despite clearly not being the teams best player and usually not getting the ball much more was big Z. Might have just been a Paul Silas old school mentality thing from early in Lebrons career.

Did Mike Brown still give Big Z that token first touch?

Love this era. Sure it was ugly in a lot of ways but teams fought hard and basketball felt meaningful.

Portland always gave Robin Lopez the first few looks to start the game and oddly enough he would make good on them.

[Xiao Yao You]

Love this era. Sure it was ugly in a lot of ways but teams fought hard and basketball felt meaningful.

Portland always gave Robin Lopez the first few looks to start the game and oddly enough he would make good on them.

Lopez was ugly but effective

[Jasper]

Agreed, but even declined as he was Kevin Love was certainly a somebody. Guys there is no reason to remember used to get early post touches while superstars stood watching on the other side of the court as if that quick missed jump hook was going to set the tone for the rest of the game. People like James Edwards on the Pistons got way more post touches than modern fans would understand. And I’m not even calling him a bad player but if you go back and watch some of those games, he is weirdly focused on now and then, as if an alarm went off somewhere, reminding them to keep the center involved.

You just…had to throw it down there early. Even if the big never got it again. Coaches seem to legitimately believe in the concept of setting the tone with an ugly jump hook. Mutombo got a lot of those touches at one time.

Whistling to/ and reason was to keep the defender involved to open up the perimeter.
Cartwright was perfect example , first 3-4 plays were to him , and then it was gone.

[highwhey]

OP is the walmart brand of shannon sharpe

[Johnny32]

It was not a better game to watch. In fact those who actually knew what they were watching called the euro style game far superior with it's ball movement, player movement, and shooting. The only people desperately trying to pretend dino ball was some great era in basketball are miserable middle aged men with nothing left currently in their pathetic lives so they're stuck glorifying the past.

[Kblaze8855]

If you’d rather watch the product today than this you go right on enjoying it:


https://youtu.be/4wLW2UwkcG4?si=FbXVQF5FIYGFtcIk


I watch it all. Just isn’t as compelling for any number of reasons. Hopefully the new penalties address the load management part. Be a step in the right direction. For years now too high a percentage of games are ruined on purpose before you can even tune in.

National tv game with 3 resting stars…

Just a worse product top to bottom.

[1987_Lakers]

WNBA 3 point line

[Xiao Yao You]

If you’d rather watch the product today than this you go right on enjoying it:


https://youtu.be/4wLW2UwkcG4?si=FbXVQF5FIYGFtcIk


I watch it all. Just isn’t as compelling for any number of reasons. Hopefully the new penalties address the load management part. Be a step in the right direction. For years now too high a percentage of games are ruined on purpose before you can even tune in.

National tv game with 3 resting stars…

Just a worse product top to bottom.

they ruin national tv games just by putting crappy teams on just because they are in a big market

[Kblaze8855]

WNBA 3 point line


I believe it was international 3 point line. Weird how different it looks when it’s just the current corner 3 distance going around the whole court. I believe so at least.

[ILLsmak]

I was just watching some early morning clipz of ball while drinking my coffee, and I thought of this thread. I have similar feelings about this as I do about that play I posted of team USA where Ingram got it and he didn't do nearly as long of an iso, but he had no other option but to shoot and ended up pulling a middie (and draining it,) it's just bad basketball. In any era. The whole beauty of bball is lost if one guy has it and you pretty much know he's gonna shoot, IMO. I think that's why guys like Larry and MJ were cool because they got it in their spots, but they didn't (usually) sit on it. And they didn't always shoot, either. What you posted is like watching Harden come down or WB come down pushing point and shoot it, which is basically a cardinal sin. That's why I can't push PG in real life even tho I'm tiny and was OK at a passing, because I shoot. Just like they put AI at SG eventually. Even Curry usually comes off the ball instead of just jacking it before anyone else touches it.

But the second point is just in regards to why it is more watchable when people are taking more weird / bad shots, and it comes down to the science of it. I don't think anyone could come close to proving analytics have improved the game quality, and not talking about the watchability, but talking about actual better opportunities. There is something that people did in basketball, which is just ball the way they balled. They saw what was an opening or whatever and took it, no matter where it led them. People had different styles and preferred different things, but each person was doing what they did, and yeah there were sets, too, but there weren't arbitrary rules, even though it's obviously true, for instance (this is a long sentence,) that taking a jumper with your feet on the 3 point line is a really bad shot, nobody would do more than be like, "If he was a bit further back..." Now you have guys with savant level 3 point line IQ (some of it is just adaptability, like Ray Ray getting behind it,) and FOR THEM, they *would* be better in the old era. But the guys who look down to make sure where their feet are kind of mess up the game. Each time you stop to actually think, and honestly when you do the math, it does make sense to make sure you are behind the line, but it also can make you brick the shot. It's just ugly watching people knowing that they are calculating anything except the best basketball play. It's also funny that guys are actually worse now (imo) at getting 2 for 1s or getting a shot without leaving enough time on the clock for the other team to get a shot.

There are def a lot of bricks in old school ball and "why" shots, but the game is so flowing that it just kind of melts away quickly. When the next guy slows it down and dribbles it for 10 seconds, you get to really think about it. It's kind of like that other thread when people were talking about why does the NCAA need 30 seconds to get a shot off, and we were talking about 45, and before that no shot clock, and I looked it up and found out that, surprisingly, THE SCORES BARELY CHANGED no matter what the shot clock was. The main difference is probably seen in match ups like 1-16 NCAA where UNC gets 120 to 48 because the other team can't slow the pace.

Basketball is not 'solved' by analytics. Just as many teams have failed trying to use them as have succeeded. People can talk about percentages, but they do need to account for the very real fact that before a certain point, at the end of the quarter, your best player was like "Gimme the ball, I'm taking that 2% chance at another 3 pointer regardless." Just like when you talk about which player was more efficient, like Kobe hater threads or w/e and you notice that the difference is like 2 or 3 missed shots over the course of 40 minutes. Haha.

-Smak