Im Still Ballin
09-15-2023, 02:17 PM
The last two NBA lockouts ('99 and '11) have resulted in regular seasons with relatively lower scoring. The Feb 22, 1999 thread below discusses what has caused the deflated offenses - great defense, poor skills, or something else...
Always cool to see these old posts.
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.sports.basketball.pro.ny-knicks/c/xaY1s1I8N-U/m/5Nn1RhTIowEJ
Thread Title: Is It Tough "D" - Or A Bogus Product???
Today's NYTimes showed a brief stat that almost knocked me off my chair...
Through nine games this year, the Knicks have "held" (and I use that term
loosely) their opponent under 70 points four times:
63 by Chicago
67 by Philly
69 by Detroit
68 by Chicago
In thirteen years - from 1985 through 1998 - the Knicks held their opponents
under 70 points, well, errr, four times!!!
64 by Indy on Dec 10 1985
68 by Chicago on Feb 20 1994
65 by Cleve on Jan 29 1997
67 by Dallas on Dec 22 1997
Also, there was an interesting graphic during one of yesterday's NBC games that
showed how the number of teams averaging >100 pts/game has been decreasing over
time - to the point where this year there is ONE team - SAC, I believe it was -
averaging >100. Contrast this to the first year NBC showed in the graphic
(early 80s, I believe) where some 20 teams averaged >100.
Have we entered an era of the toughest "D" ever played? Or are fundamentals
lacking (as I hear The Big O recently stated) and we're being given a bogus
product?
I haven't looked at shooting percentages to see how the league's been shooting
as a whole versus prior years, but I can tell you this: Vin Baker's putrid 3-25
from the foul line has NOTHING to do with tough "D" being played against him.
And I find it hard to believe that Patrick Ewing's 53-135 (0.393) is due to the
heightened level of "D" he's face so far this year.
This year has unfolded pretty much as it had to after a protracted labor
dispute - poor play and a rash of injuries.
Some responses:
I've watched basketball a number of years, and I have never seen
anything like it. There are simply no open shots to be had. The defense
thus far has been incredible. Michael
That battledroid shooting lasers from above the backboard may have
something to do with the FT% being so low..
Oh sorry, wrong NG. 3 months til Star Wars.
EK
There are plenty of open shots. They're just being missed...by almost
everyone. This has everything to do with the lockout & rushed "pre-season" &
poor work ehtics by the players during the lockout & lack of fundamentals by
today's players and almost *nothing* to do with "tough defense".
Dikey, "a number of years" should be reserved for numbers larger than 2.
The defense has been very average. Nothing special, but then why
bother? Teams are shooting pathetically. They are not passing well.
They are not running like they should, and there are very few exceptions
to each of these generalizations. I'm somewhat biased b/c of all the
Celtics games I suffer through. Clueless best describes their offensive
flow...but I digress. There are teams that run offenses, but the game
has been made far more complex because of the decreased ability of
players to hit jumpshots. This allows for more traps, more double
teams. The lack of big men passing well makes weakside rotation far
more effective than it should be. The defenses have been smothering
teams, but largely because the talent just isn't what it used to be..imo
of course.
B
Some of those with "poor work ethics" were the approx. 150 players who were free agents,
who would have to be foolish to risk any injury that might prevent them from passing a
team physical after the lockout was lifted.
It's hard to attribute the terrible FT% to anything other than lack of practice,poor
conditioning and the grueling schedule. On both free throws and outside shots, I see a
lot of guys not having their legs working for them, and shots clanging on the front of
the rim - a sure sign of fatigue.
As for tough D, I'm undecided about whether the Knicks are REALLY doing that much better
a job of passing the ball, or if the defense is just a little slower. Clearly the Knicks
have been trying to improve their ball movement, but would it have succeeded as well as
it has (look at the ratio of assists to baskets) if the defenses weren't playing on
fumes? Hard to tell.
Tom V.
I think what we've seen evolve during the last several years are players who
have created or extended their nba careers due to "specialization" of a
defensive skill. How long would Rodman had lasted if he had not turned
rebounding into an art? Oakley himself has captalized on hard work as a
substitute for what he lacks. Jayson Williams has directed his efforts to be a
rebounding machine as a way of assuring his place in the nba. Camby and
Dekembe have captialized on shot blocking as their fortes ... Bo Outlaw, Jerome
Williams et al. are all making their mark as defensive specialists. It wouldn't
surprise me to see more players concentrate on producing shot blocking
techniques in the years ahead. Seems to be the up and coming "in" stat.
Maddy
Some interesting numbers there...I think the decline in scoring
could be found not solely in the NBA but in the majority of
professional basketball leagues around the world (that's
certainly the case here in Australia).
I've heard all the excuses before (the longer 3 point line,
a lack of fundamentals) but I think the defense has improved
dramatically.
How many times have you heard the term 'offensive specialist'?
Never, because there's no such thing (Dell Curry comes close
though). Now think of the number of times you've heard the
term 'defensive specialist'....You hear it in the NBA, NCAA...
The majority of players know that if they can play defense,
then no matter how much they suck offensively they'll get minutes
(check out Bo Outlaw). For this reason more time is spent
in practice on learning defensive playes. I think teams also
scout their opposition more thoroughly than in previous years.
Night!
I understand & agree about the FA risk factor during the lockout. However,
as you point out, free throw shooting seems to be down throughout the league
& there is no excuse for any of the players not to have shot FTs or hit the
treadmill or just worked on shooting during the layoff. Risk of injury
during those types of practice sessions are minimal. I think things will
pick up over the next week or two. The first week or so of the "season"
really was pre- season to most of the teams
Agreed, but I feel that there were alwasys defensive specialists available,
just not needed because of the number of offensive stars. With the expansion
of the past several years, more defensive players are now getting jobs
instead of offensive players (because they were always in the league in the
first place) and now we see a different precentage of offensive players vs
defensive players.
Jeff
Always cool to see these old posts.
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.sports.basketball.pro.ny-knicks/c/xaY1s1I8N-U/m/5Nn1RhTIowEJ
Thread Title: Is It Tough "D" - Or A Bogus Product???
Today's NYTimes showed a brief stat that almost knocked me off my chair...
Through nine games this year, the Knicks have "held" (and I use that term
loosely) their opponent under 70 points four times:
63 by Chicago
67 by Philly
69 by Detroit
68 by Chicago
In thirteen years - from 1985 through 1998 - the Knicks held their opponents
under 70 points, well, errr, four times!!!
64 by Indy on Dec 10 1985
68 by Chicago on Feb 20 1994
65 by Cleve on Jan 29 1997
67 by Dallas on Dec 22 1997
Also, there was an interesting graphic during one of yesterday's NBC games that
showed how the number of teams averaging >100 pts/game has been decreasing over
time - to the point where this year there is ONE team - SAC, I believe it was -
averaging >100. Contrast this to the first year NBC showed in the graphic
(early 80s, I believe) where some 20 teams averaged >100.
Have we entered an era of the toughest "D" ever played? Or are fundamentals
lacking (as I hear The Big O recently stated) and we're being given a bogus
product?
I haven't looked at shooting percentages to see how the league's been shooting
as a whole versus prior years, but I can tell you this: Vin Baker's putrid 3-25
from the foul line has NOTHING to do with tough "D" being played against him.
And I find it hard to believe that Patrick Ewing's 53-135 (0.393) is due to the
heightened level of "D" he's face so far this year.
This year has unfolded pretty much as it had to after a protracted labor
dispute - poor play and a rash of injuries.
Some responses:
I've watched basketball a number of years, and I have never seen
anything like it. There are simply no open shots to be had. The defense
thus far has been incredible. Michael
That battledroid shooting lasers from above the backboard may have
something to do with the FT% being so low..
Oh sorry, wrong NG. 3 months til Star Wars.
EK
There are plenty of open shots. They're just being missed...by almost
everyone. This has everything to do with the lockout & rushed "pre-season" &
poor work ehtics by the players during the lockout & lack of fundamentals by
today's players and almost *nothing* to do with "tough defense".
Dikey, "a number of years" should be reserved for numbers larger than 2.
The defense has been very average. Nothing special, but then why
bother? Teams are shooting pathetically. They are not passing well.
They are not running like they should, and there are very few exceptions
to each of these generalizations. I'm somewhat biased b/c of all the
Celtics games I suffer through. Clueless best describes their offensive
flow...but I digress. There are teams that run offenses, but the game
has been made far more complex because of the decreased ability of
players to hit jumpshots. This allows for more traps, more double
teams. The lack of big men passing well makes weakside rotation far
more effective than it should be. The defenses have been smothering
teams, but largely because the talent just isn't what it used to be..imo
of course.
B
Some of those with "poor work ethics" were the approx. 150 players who were free agents,
who would have to be foolish to risk any injury that might prevent them from passing a
team physical after the lockout was lifted.
It's hard to attribute the terrible FT% to anything other than lack of practice,poor
conditioning and the grueling schedule. On both free throws and outside shots, I see a
lot of guys not having their legs working for them, and shots clanging on the front of
the rim - a sure sign of fatigue.
As for tough D, I'm undecided about whether the Knicks are REALLY doing that much better
a job of passing the ball, or if the defense is just a little slower. Clearly the Knicks
have been trying to improve their ball movement, but would it have succeeded as well as
it has (look at the ratio of assists to baskets) if the defenses weren't playing on
fumes? Hard to tell.
Tom V.
I think what we've seen evolve during the last several years are players who
have created or extended their nba careers due to "specialization" of a
defensive skill. How long would Rodman had lasted if he had not turned
rebounding into an art? Oakley himself has captalized on hard work as a
substitute for what he lacks. Jayson Williams has directed his efforts to be a
rebounding machine as a way of assuring his place in the nba. Camby and
Dekembe have captialized on shot blocking as their fortes ... Bo Outlaw, Jerome
Williams et al. are all making their mark as defensive specialists. It wouldn't
surprise me to see more players concentrate on producing shot blocking
techniques in the years ahead. Seems to be the up and coming "in" stat.
Maddy
Some interesting numbers there...I think the decline in scoring
could be found not solely in the NBA but in the majority of
professional basketball leagues around the world (that's
certainly the case here in Australia).
I've heard all the excuses before (the longer 3 point line,
a lack of fundamentals) but I think the defense has improved
dramatically.
How many times have you heard the term 'offensive specialist'?
Never, because there's no such thing (Dell Curry comes close
though). Now think of the number of times you've heard the
term 'defensive specialist'....You hear it in the NBA, NCAA...
The majority of players know that if they can play defense,
then no matter how much they suck offensively they'll get minutes
(check out Bo Outlaw). For this reason more time is spent
in practice on learning defensive playes. I think teams also
scout their opposition more thoroughly than in previous years.
Night!
I understand & agree about the FA risk factor during the lockout. However,
as you point out, free throw shooting seems to be down throughout the league
& there is no excuse for any of the players not to have shot FTs or hit the
treadmill or just worked on shooting during the layoff. Risk of injury
during those types of practice sessions are minimal. I think things will
pick up over the next week or two. The first week or so of the "season"
really was pre- season to most of the teams
Agreed, but I feel that there were alwasys defensive specialists available,
just not needed because of the number of offensive stars. With the expansion
of the past several years, more defensive players are now getting jobs
instead of offensive players (because they were always in the league in the
first place) and now we see a different precentage of offensive players vs
defensive players.
Jeff