A Kevin McHale vs. Scottie Pippen comparison thread from [May 26th, 1994]

[Im Still Ballin]

These old Usenet groups from the '80s, '90s, and '00s are a gold mine. I'm currently checking out what posters were saying in that 1993-1994 Bulls season without MJ. I came across this McHale-Pippen comparison thread. You know I had to share it.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.sport.basketball.pro/c/dV7ABesaWrk/m/nn1rYC9xkT0J


Face it. They(the Jordan Bulls) only had one truly great player.
These are the words of the most jealous NBA player ever,U guessed it right,
McHale.

Pippen obviously pissed him off or should I say Pippen pissed on him.

-Reddy


I know you can't be saying Scottie Pippen is even close to being as
good as McHale. I know you can't possibly think the 90's Bulls are better
than the 80's Celtics. The Bulls only won three because expansion diluted
the league. The Celtics had the Lakers, Rockets, Pistons and an overall more
talented league to deal with. Kevin Mchale was the third best player on the
Celtics and in his prime was ten times better than the Bulls BEST
player--Scottie "I'm over rated" Pippen. Can you honestly say that if a head
to head match were possible the Bulls would win?! Please!
Evan


God, where do these losers crawl out from this time of year.

First of all, let me say that I am a Knick fan, and hate the Bulls and
Celtics equally, so my opinion is unbiased.

a) Scottie Pippen blows away McHale.

b) It is pretty meaningless to compare the greatness of teams from
different periods since the game is continuing to progress, but if
you took the mid 80's Celtics and time travelled with them to play the
Bulls in last years playoffs head to head, I can confidently say that
the Celts would get their butts kicked all over the place. 10 years
has made a big difference in physical conditioning, athleticism, and
NBA defense. At the same time, I don't think it's a contradiction to
say that I feel the Celtics were a greater team _in_their_day_.



> a) Scottie Pippen blows away McHale.
Well, I wouldn't put it this strongly. McHale was
pretty incredible and a different type of player than Pippen.
Still, those who think Pippen is over-rated are boneheads.
Scottie Pippen, I had to admit last year in the playoffs, is a
great basketball player. A jerk, but a great basketball
player. McHale was a great basketball player too.


> you took the mid 80's Celtics and time travelled with them to play the
> Bulls in last years playoffs head to head, I can confidently say that
> the Celts would get their butts kicked all over the place. 10 years
> has made a big difference in physical conditioning, athleticism, and

I disagree. How can you say that any teteam with a
front line of Parish, McHale and Larry Bird would get its butt
kicked all over the place??? Bird is only one of the three
greatest players of all time. McHale is one of the greatest
players since 1980, and Parish probably the most over-rated
center of our era. Add Dennis Johnson and Danny Ainge int he
backcourt, and a changing cast of quality backups and you have
a team as good as any today.



|> I know you can't be saying Scottie Pippen is even close to being as
|> good as McHale. I know you can't possibly think the 90's Bulls are better

Yes, he is saying that and I agree. I was a BIG Celtics fan in the 80's, mainly
because I hated the Lakers. I think that Bird, the Chief, HcHale and the others
were great, HcHale had some of the best inside moves I've ever seen. BTW, I've
seen some of those moves emulated by Kukoc. But, Pippen can do things that
McHale never even thought of doing. One - on - One, they probably would have a
hard time guarding each other. Pippen would blow by McHale in the open court or
stay outside and bomb away. McHale would go inside and crank on Scottie. They
are both great players. Don't be jealous. :-)


|> than the 80's Celtics. The Bulls only won three because expansion diluted

The Celtics were great because they had a great team. Ditto for the Bulls. If
anything, rules changes, draft changes and expansion made it more difficult to
dominate.


|> the league. The Celtics had the Lakers, Rockets, Pistons and an overall more
|> talented league to deal with. Kevin Mchale was the third best player on the
|> Celtics and in his prime was ten times better than the Bulls BEST
|> player--Scottie "I'm over rated" Pippen. Can you honestly say that if a head

Your prejudice is showing, MJ was the best player ever, and even he wasn't 10
times better!


|> to head match were possible the Bulls would win?! Please!

Good chance of it, yes. Every series would go 7 games, difficult to say after 5
years who would have more championships, maybe the Celtics, maybe not.

DCT

[Im Still Ballin]

>a) Scottie Pippen blows away McHale.

A rather bold statement to make without giving any facts to back it up. I
don't have stats on hand, but it's widely accepted that McHale was the
greatest low post player in history of the game, a consistent 20+ ppg
scorer in his prime, and one of the best low-post defensive players ever,
too. And this was on team with one of the top players ever (Bird),
another Hall of Fame big man, another possible HoFer in Dennis Johnson,
and a very solid cast of role players. Ok, you'll say that the "low-post"
stuff is McHale's limitation but I don't buy it. Pippen is definitely an
All-Star and one of the top SFs in the game, but he has yet to match the
level of McHale, either in their best years or over a career.


>b) It is pretty meaningless to compare the greatness of teams from
>different periods since the game is continuing to progress, but if

>you took the mid 80's Celtics and time travelled with them to play the
>Bulls in last years playoffs head to head, I can confidently say that
>the Celts would get their butts kicked all over the place. 10 years
>has made a big difference in physical conditioning, athleticism, and

>NBA defense. At the same time, I don't think it's a contradiction to
>say that I feel the Celtics were a greater team _in_their_day_.

You'd be one of the few people I know. First, I refuse to believe that 10
years makes that great of a difference -- to give it the weight you seem
to is tantmount to saying that if Bird or Magic were playing now, they
wouldn't be as exceptional and I find that hard to believe. The Celtics
and Lakers of the mid-80s are generally considered among the top teams in
NBA history and would definitely beat the Jordan-less Bulls -- I'd even
taken them over the 3Peat teams simply because the level of competition
was, as a previous poster mentioned, so much higher back then. Let's
look at positions, just starters:

Bulls Celts Advantage:
C - Cartwright Parish Parish, no contest
F - Grant McHale McHale, again, no contest
F - Pippen Bird Bird, less of a contest than above
G - Jordan Johnson Jordan, no contest
G - Armstrong ??? Ainge? n/a

So, the Celtics have an unequivocal advantage in the front court whereas
the only clear advantage the Bulls have is Jordan over Johnson. I don't
think it would be close. Throw in the bench and it's less of a game then
when you've got the starters in there. The only argument you can make is
the 10 year one which - while it might work with a difference of 25 years
- simply doesn't hold water over 10 years. I'd take the mid-80s Lakers
over last year's Bulls as well - heck, the Suns gave them a run for it
last year and don't even try to tell me that the Suns are at the level of
either the Lakers or Celtics teams.

Jon


God where do these Pippin-loving losers crawl out from this time of year.

First of all let me say that I like the Knicks, the Celtics, Lakers,
and several other teams and your opinion is rediculous.

a) Scottie Pippen in his prime does not come close to McHale in his prime.

Pippen is pretty popular this year because the Bulls have done well
with him leading the way. Big Deal. Kevin McHale had the best
collection of post moves I have ever seen. Pippen is a very very
good ball player. McHale was even better. He was almost unstoppable
in the low post. Your assertion that Pippen is the better player
is truly rediculous.

David P.



> A rather bold statement to make without giving any facts to back it up. I
> don't have stats on hand, but it's widely accepted that McHale was the
> greatest low post player in history of the game

OK, perhaps my statement was bold, but this one is outrageous. Widely
accepted by who? Are you saying he is a greater low post player than
say, Kareem? At either end of the court? Or even than Parish for that matter?



>>a) Scottie Pippen blows away McHale.

that's apples and oranges.

chris


It amazes me how ignorant some people can be. It really makes one wonder
whether some of these people ever actually watched basketball in the
early-mid 80s. Kevin McHale and Scottie Pippen were VERY different kinds
of players. Kevin McHale was one of the best low post players and defenders
to ever play the game, IMHO. It amazes me when I listen to people talk a
about certain players, and talk about them in relation to how they
performed in the last few years. Yes, Pippen now is better than McHale now.
But if you compare Pippen now to the McHale of the mid 80s (like especially
around 86-87), and I think the edge goes to McHale in a big way...

As for the Bulls of the present vs. the Celtics of the mid 80s, I would
contend it would be a good game, but that the Celtics would just be too
strong and too big for the Bulls.




: It amazes me how ignorant some people can be. It really makes one wonder
: whether some of these people ever actually watched basketball in the
: early-mid 80s. Kevin McHale and Scottie Pippen were VERY different kinds
: of players.

In fact they are so *VERY* different, that comparing them is useless.


: Kevin McHale was one of the best low post players and defenders
: to ever play the game, IMHO.

That he was. *BUT* Pippen is one of the most-versatile players to ever
play the game, IMHO.


: It amazes me when I listen to people talk a about certain players, and
: talk about them in relation to how they performed in the last few years.

It amazes me when I listen to people compare a pure low-post PF with a
"point forward" who have (admittedly by those who compare them) entirely
different games. Both are/were undoubtedly the best at their position
(or at least arguable so) during their prime.


: Yes, Pippen now is better than McHale now.

Of course.


: But if you compare Pippen now to the McHale of the mid 80s (like especially
: around 86-87), and I think the edge goes to McHale in a big way...

1. It's really silly to try to compare the two.

2. Very few people in the last 15 years could have an edge on
Pippen in 'a big way' and McHale ain't one of them.


: As for the Bulls of the present vs. the Celtics of the mid 80s, I would
: contend it would be a good game, but that the Celtics would just be too
: strong and too big for the Bulls.

Sez you.

Just a point. I don't remember the '87 McHale getting much consideration
for MVP, but I'm not sure. Did he?

Does Jazzy or anyone else (as if there were anyone else with regards to
having old stats) have the MVP voting results for that year?

Andy Markham




:It amazes me how ignorant some people can be. It really makes one wonder
:whether some of these people ever actually watched basketball in the
:early-mid 80s. Kevin McHale and Scottie Pippen were VERY different kinds
:of players. Kevin McHale was one of the best low post players and defenders
:to ever play the game, IMHO.

Aside from which McHale _never_ had episode like Pippen's for a play
not being called for him. I think this last little tif between him and
Kukoc kind of sealed the debate. McHale was not only a great player,
he was a much better team player.

Joshua Konstadt
...

[Im Still Ballin]

|> Just a point. I don't remember the '87 McHale getting much consideration
|> for MVP, but I'm not sure. Did he?

Well, I don't have any stats, but I think that any player on the same team as
Larry Bird would probably not get much consideration.

Dan



: Well, I don't have any stats, but I think that any player on the same team as
: Larry Bird would probably not get much consideration.

Probably a very good point, but does anyone think he would have without
Bird? Without a contending team (which the Celtics would have likely been
without Bird) it is basically *IMPOSSIBLE* to get serious MVP considerations
anymore.

Andy Markham


well, not to be the start of some big war, but i believe that
you are uh... comparing the two there. i think that one
comparison could be this. comparing the mchale of 86, and
pippen of 94, when the game comes down to one possession, tell
me who you would want to have the ball. pippen on the wing or
mchale about 2 feet from the block. i would go with mchale
about 10 times out of 10. to me that's a big edge in comparing
the two, though they have dramatically different playing styles
can be compared in other manners.

chris



> Aside from which McHale _never_ had episode like Pippen's for a play
> not being called for him. I think this last little tif between him and
> Kukoc kind of sealed the debate. McHale was not only a great player,
> he was a much better team player.

And he wasn't a jerk like Pippen showed he is. Well not a jerk. A spoiled brat.


Yes. Mchale was not only a great player but a superb individual
and team player. Just remember that he was probably the only
player in team sports who asked for a contract that should
at least be one dollar less than that of the best player on the team:
"somebody" by the name Larry Joe Bird!!!!

So quit talking thrash at Kevin Mchale.....Even though I admire the
great talent of Pippen what he did at the end of game#3 against
the Knicks does really question his commitment to his teammates.
A Mchale or Bird or Magic would never have done that.




>|> Just a point. I don't remember the '87 McHale getting much consideration
>|> for MVP, but I'm not sure. Did he?
>Well, I don't have any stats, but I think that any player on the same team as
>Larry Bird would probably not get much consideration.

>Dan

I don't have the MVP voting from the year, but McHale DID make the
first team AllNBA that year, was 6th in scoring, 1st in FG%, 7th in blocked
shots, and an AllNBA 1st team defensive player. I would HOPE he got
some serious consideration.

Either way, I can't think of too many people who had a more dominating
season, ESPECIALLY when you consider he was the Celtics #2 option...



>Either way, I can't think of too many people who had a more dominating
>season, ESPECIALLY when you consider he was the Celtics #2 option...

Actually, around then (1987, or maybe it was 1986) I noticed that
the Celtics were actually making McHale what I would call the first
option. Bird would still get more shots and more points than McHale,
and would touch the ball more, but the Celtics really seemed to be
looking at McHale as their first option. (Not a bad idea, considering
he was among the league leaders in FG%, and scoring 21-26 points per
game.)

The Celtics halfcourt offense seemed to focus on getting the ball
to McHale, or moving the ball around so that they could then get the
ball to McHale, or doing something different if the defense completely
sagged in on McHale. In other words, the offense to a good extent
revolved around McHale, though it was often Bird who actually executed
the offense, handling the ball (and of course DJ and Ainge).
McHale was clearly an All-star performer already at that point.
But it was when I noticed that he was the Celtics first option that I
began thinking Hall of Fame. There aren't many players that are going
to be an offense's first option over Larry Bird (or Robert Parish, for
that matter).

...