You ain’t a leader. Nobody followed you. You was never shit your mother should have….

[Kblaze8855]

….swallowed you.

Random line from someone I won’t identify, but will give you useless extra credit if you recognize it. Anyway, it inspired me to ask you about supposed ”Heart and soul of the team” players.

Off the top of my head I don’t remember that phrase ever being applied to anybody considered the best player on the team only to other guys being elevated by it. Draymond Green is the most prominent recent example. I feel like I’ve heard Patrick Beverley get some of that talk. Marcus Smart definitely might lead the league and all television broadcasts in that category recently if Draymond doesnt. Previously it was said of people like Michael Finley on the Mavs for some reason. Antoine Walker was often credited as the heart and soul of the Boston Celtics. I might’ve heard something along those lines about Shawn Marion on the suns. Udonis Haslem is definitely one of those guys.


What I’d like your opinion on is how literally do you take it and how much credit do you give players like that for teams success?

Isiah Thomas famously told Bill Simmons when he was writing his all-time ranking book that the secret to winning basketball is that it isnt about basketball. It’s been taken to mean you have to be able to blend personalities to win and that obviously is an issue. Those “heart and soul” guys might have an intangible role but that doesnt make it insignificant.

Have you ever been annoyed as a fan of a superstar who is on a team with one of those guys and doesn’t get his due in your opinion? I feel like I’ve seen some of that resentment at times.

Do you think these guys are really being followed or or they just vocal on teams that would be good even if they shut the **** up?

[eliteballer]

Chemistry matters...who won without chemistry?

[Kblaze8855]

Of course chemistry matters, but the issue is how responsible are these heart and soul types for providing it? I have heard Chris Webber recently say the kings chance to win really fell apart when Doug Christie was gone. He was their heart and soul guy. I’m not dismissing the existence of important people down the roster. I’m just curious how much each of you buy into the real world impact.

[RRR3]

You on some tagalong flunky yes man shit, do me a favor please get off the next man's dick...lol I love Big L.

[Kblaze8855]

I’m pretty sure the “Far from broke got enough bread and mad hoes….ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead” line later in that verse created about 2000 punchline rappers.

[RRR3]

I’m pretty sure the “Far from broke got enough bread and mad hoes….ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead” line later in that verse created about 2000 punchline rappers.
Where's my extra credit?

[Kblaze8855]

I award you one unjust temporary banning to dole out at your leisure. Expires October first.

[RRR3]

I award you one unjust temporary banning to dole out at your leisure. Expires October first.
Lmao, based. Gotta think about that.

[Kblaze8855]

A few players I’ve found being referred to specifically as the “heart and soul” of their teams this morning. Some by teammates, some by media, some by fans….


Bam for Miami(also some Jimmy)

Chris Paul for the suns(surprising)

Isaiah Stewart for the pistons

Mitchell Robinson Knicks

KG on the Celtics(of course)

John Starks for the 90s knicks

PJ Tucker when he was a Rockets

Manu on the spurs

Finley on the Mavs

Awful lot of these guys when you look for them.

Must be a thousand “heart and soul” articles like this:





When the team improbably turned things around during the Jim O'Brien Era, making it all the way to the Eastern Finals in 2002, the fans fell head over heels for Pierce. Walker was an afterthought, belittled for shooting so many 3s, even though his coach was imploring him to do so. With two quality players and 10 average ones, O'Brien decided that the best way to compete was by playing Walker and Pierce big minutes, slowing things down and revolving the offense around an unconscionable numbers of 3s. For whatever reason, Antoine was blamed for this style of play, a curious outcome for the undisputed heart and soul of the team

[tpols]

I'll identify him on some snitch shit.


https://youtu.be/_Ek7Kts-87Q?si=4Z1cCnaw-UlOUCwV

Big L '98 freestyle. I first heard it in college back in 2009.

I can't imagine calling yourself that nowadays. Big L? L stands for loss here. And making songs like this called flamboyant.


https://youtu.be/3eHf3RxspSg?si=HKTve1kjW7q8T97b

You'd think it was some fruity shit but he comes out gangster.

[Kblaze8855]

I believe his name was Lamont.

[tpols]

I believe his name was Lamont.

You like to tell a lot huh?

[Kblaze8855]

All I know is the shooter had a hood on. Might’ve been Dr. doom.

10 dollar Amazon gift card to anyone who identifies that one.

[tpols]

All I know is the shooter had a hood on. Might’ve been Dr. doom.

10 dollar Amazon gift card to anyone who identifies that one.

What's his last name and when was the last time you two spoke?

[RRR3]

Blaze does my banning include obvious alts? For instance if I said ban full court would you ban Jimmy rustler too since you know damn well that’s him and he posts the exact same stuff?

[Kblaze8855]

Blaze does my banning include obvious alts? For instance if I said ban full court would you ban Jimmy rustler too since you know damn well that’s him and he posts the exact same stuff?


Naturally. I’ve noticed him using that alt as ban insurance but I assume whoever it is that usually bans him noticed as well, so I just ignore it. In this special situation I would not.

[RRR3]

Naturally. I’ve noticed him using that alt as ban insurance but I assume whoever it is that usually bans him noticed as well, so I just ignore it. In this special situation I would not.
Okay then I want full court and his alt Jimmy rustler banned. I’m sick of the spam :lol

Thanks :cheers:

[Kblaze8855]

I’ll look into that in a bit.

[highwhey]

I’ll look into that in a bit.

ban jstern and walkonwater

[L.Kizzle]

Why does Big L get more love then say, Grandmaster Caz?

[Kblaze8855]

Being good at rap and not just among the first to do it.

[L.Kizzle]

Being good at rap and not just among the first to do it.
You don't think Caz was good at rap? I mean, he's not Bg Bank Hank and actually has a place in Hip-Hop history. Big L, not so much.

Caz is like Elgin Baylor and Big L is like Reggie Lewis.

[ShawkFactory]

Nah. Caz is like Otto Graham and Big L is like Mike Vick.

[L.Kizzle]

Nah. Caz is like Otto Graham and Big L is like Mike Vick.
Big L never reached Vick like status. L was an underground star with NYC rap was at its peak. Caz was an underground star when Hip-Hop was no where close to peaking.

[Kblaze8855]

Otto Graham won 7-8 titles and four or five MVPs. He’s George Mikan of football. Grandmaster Caz greatest contribution was ghost writing rappers delight. I’m not saying he didn’t play a big role. He just wasn’t a big enough star to compare to Otto Graham or Elgin Baylor.

[L.Kizzle]

Otto Graham won 7-8 titles and four or five MVPs. He’s George Mikan of football. Grandmaster Caz greatest contribution was ghost writing rappers delight. I’m not saying he didn’t play a big role. He just wasn’t a big enough star to compare to Otto Graham or Elgin Baylor.
From what the OGs say, he's was that dude and Cold Crush Bros would kill anyone, including the Furious Five. Sugar Hill Gang don't even count. None of the original rappers even respect them.

[Kblaze8855]

There’s no doubt he was among the first people who rapped a way we would recognize as rap. And he could actually write and wasn’t just performing other peoples things. The way early rappers were comfortable doing like singers always did. I’m not saying he’s a Nobody. I’m saying it’s hard to compare him to a guy who was damn near the Babe Ruth of the NFL accomplishment wise.

He was a great pioneer. Big L was a great rapper. There’s a considerable difference.

[ShawkFactory]

Big L never reached Vick like status. L was an underground star with NYC rap was at its peak. Caz was an underground star when Hip-Hop was no where close to peaking.

I was going to actually say Cunningham. Maybe I’ll backtrack into that.

[L.Kizzle]

I was going to actually say Cunningham. Maybe I’ll backtrack into that.

Cunningham was better than Vick. Maybe Dante Culpepper.

[L.Kizzle]

There’s no doubt he was among the first people who rapped a way we would recognize as rap. And he could actually write and wasn’t just performing other peoples things. The way early rappers were comfortable doing like singers always did. I’m not saying he’s a Nobody. I’m saying it’s hard to compare him to a guy who was damn near the Babe Ruth of the NFL accomplishment wise.

He was a great pioneer. Big L was a great rapper. There’s a considerable difference.

Caz is more than a pioneer. Joe Fulks was a pioneer, Elgin. Baylor was one of the best. Maybe Maurice Stokes would be a better comparison. Stokes player against Baylor, Russell, Pettit, Cousy. Just missed Wilt, West and Oscar.

Big L was underground nice. A lot of Big L's in the rap community if you go by region. Soulja Slim, Mac Dre, etc.

[Kblaze8855]

Big L was way more respected as a rapper than anyone you’re talking about. People in the south rep slim but you’ll never hear someone like an Eminem say something like:





Take some Big and some Pac and you mix them up in a pot
Sprinkle a little Big L on top, what the **** do you got?



Listing him as an elite legend of rapping ability.

Different kinda respect.

[L.Kizzle]

Big L was way more respected as a rapper than anyone you’re talking about. People in the south rep slim but you’ll never hear someone like an Eminem say something like:





Listing him as an elite legend of rapping ability.

Different kinda respect.

Well, the south don't get lots of respect in Hip-Hop anyway.

[Kblaze8855]

I swear, sometimes it seems like you’re speaking directly from 1997. The south pretty much took over hip-hop 15-20 years ago.

[RRR3]

I’ve never heard anyone who was aware of Big L speak of his ability with anything but reverence. Reggie Lewis lmfao. Pass the needle Kizzle

[tpols]

I swear, sometimes it seems like you’re speaking directly from 1997. The south pretty much took over hip-hop 15-20 years ago.

Ludacris is probably the only smart southern rapper. Lil John or Mike Jones types (although his classic is legit) even T I are some SAT failing fellas to the max.

[ShawkFactory]

This guy never heard of Andre 3000?

[tpols]

This guy never heard of Andre 3000?

Outkast up there too but they didn't just rap. Their hooks and signing is what made them.

[ShawkFactory]

Outkast up there too but they didn't just rap. Their hooks and signing is what made them.

:facepalm

[tpols]

:facepalm

It's true. NY rapper lyrical game is miles ahead. Down South they have more soul on the hooks and singing.

What are you face-palming at?

[ShawkFactory]

It's true. NY rapper lyrical game is miles ahead. Down South they have more soul on the hooks and singing.

What are you face-palming at?

Because you clearly know absolutely nothing about Outkast. His style might not be for everyone but Andre is undoubtedly one of the most intelligent lyricists of all time.

Blaze mentioned Eminem shouting Big L out and I'm sure you've heard Em say:

I got a list, here's the order of my list that it's in
It goes: Reggie, Jay-Z, 2Pac and Biggie
André from OutKast, Jada, Kurupt, Nas, and then me

Listen to something before Hey Ya or Ms. Jackson. Andre in the ATLiens and Aquemini days was on another level.

You're over here mentioning Lil John and Mike Jones as your southern rappers and you're wondering why I'm faceplaming you? You know nothing.

[Kblaze8855]

Ludacris is probably the only smart southern rapper. Lil John or Mike Jones types (although his classic is legit) even T I are some SAT failing fellas to the max.


https://youtu.be/7xVEa0SMxFg?si=Q2GafoeJ-Pfzs_F7


https://youtu.be/6lIqNjC1RKU?si=O3dG8Ht9EfvXqX25


https://youtu.be/KL1VcP2ab5Q?si=QJ822HUYPcQVjNhN

[RRR3]

Tpols gonna rage about a video critical of Reagan.

[tpols]

I've listened to ATLiens a thousand times. Their hooks were always the best. Their lyrics were nice but not NYC on point nice. It's not even close listening to guys like Nas or big pun or even Jay z. It's a different level of flow. Smoother and more intelligent.

Yall made an era out of the ying yang twins and Lil John. Soulja boy and all stop the nonsense.

Stop it.

[ShawkFactory]

I've listened to ATLiens a thousand times. Their hooks were always the best. Their lyrics were nice but not NYC on point nice. It's not even close listening to guys like Nas or big pun or even Jay z. It's a different level of flow. Smoother and more intelligent.

Yall made an era out of the ying yang twins and Lil John. Soulja boy and all stop the nonsense.

Stop it.

You said this:


Ludacris is probably the only smart southern rapper

Just to circle it back for you so you can remember what the argument was about. Even though it was on this page.

Me mentioning Andre 3000 as an intelligent rapper is not me arguing whatever you think is happening here.

[Kblaze8855]

I've listened to ATLiens a thousand times. Their hooks were always the best. Their lyrics were nice but not NYC on point nice. It's not even close listening to guys like Nas or big pun or even Jay z. It's a different level of flow. Smoother and more intelligent.

Yall made an era out of the ying yang twins and Lil John. Soulja boy and all stop the nonsense.

Stop it.


The weird thing is that Lil John is the closest thing that era had to the original New York emcees who were nothing but hype men to keep parties going and support the DJ.

anyway, having read your Andre take talking about flow and intelligence lacking compared to New York I think I’ll leave you be. You obviously aren’t really a hip-hop person.

[tpols]

You said this:



Just to circle it back for you so you can remember what the argument was about. Even though it was on this page.

Me mentioning Andre 3000 as an intelligent rapper is not me arguing whatever you think is happening here.

Ludacris had the best rapping. Andre 3000 had some good lyrics but he was also built of hooks.

All I'm saying is that IMO Luda made yall back then.

[Kblaze8855]

Tpols gonna rage about a video critical of Reagan.

Not if he gets to the third verse




Ronald Reagan was a actor, not at all a factor
Just an employee of the country's real masters
Just like the Bushes, Clinton and Obama
Just another talking head telling lies on teleprompters
If you don't believe the theory, then argue with this logic
Why did Reagan and Obama both go after Gaddafi?
We invaded sovereign soil, going after oil
Taking countries is a hobby paid for by the oil lobby
Same as in Iraq and Afghanistan
And Ahmadinejad say they coming for Iran
They only love the rich and how they loathe the poor
If I say any more they might be at my door



Guy just dropped one of the best albums in years.

Ludacris is such a weird pick for only smart southern rapper. I like Luda but he’s not generally saying or doing anything intelligent to stand out from the pack of good southern artists.

[RRR3]

Not if he gets to the third verse



Guy just dropped one of the best albums in years.

Ludacris is such a weird pick for only smart southern rapper. I like Luda but he’s not generally saying or doing anything intelligent to stand out from the pack of good southern artists.
Killer Mike doesn't like his hero either :lol

[Kblaze8855]

Ludacris had the best rapping. Andre 3000 had some good lyrics but he was also built of hooks.

All I'm saying is that IMO Luda made yall back then.


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2309200436190328.jpeg

[ShawkFactory]

Ludacris had the best rapping. Andre 3000 had some good lyrics but he was also built of hooks.

All I'm saying is that IMO Luda made yall back then.

Good God man. Maybe Ludacris was your favorite? He, like pretty much anyone ever, would explain to you why Andre would clean him lyrically.

There's a reason Andre is the last verse on almost every feature he's ever been on. No one wants to follow him.

[tpols]

The weird thing is that Lil John is the closest thing that era had to the original New York emcees who were nothing but hype men to keep parties going and support the DJ.

anyway, having read your Andre take talking about flow and intelligence lacking compared to New York I think I’ll leave you be. You obviously aren’t really a hip-hop person.

Rappers from the ghettos of Atlanta and the south aren't as on point or sharp lyrically as NYC rappers. You could do a Shakespearean word diversity and rhyming count. You'll get lambasted in the comparison.

[tpols]

Not if he gets to the third verse



Guy just dropped one of the best albums in years.

Ludacris is such a weird pick for only smart southern rapper. I like Luda but he’s not generally saying or doing anything intelligent to stand out from the pack of good southern artists.

I agree with Andres point if he said that. Shit is all rigged. Respect him for saying that. .

Doesn't mean he was a great lyricist on the level of pun, Nas, hov, X, etc.

[RRR3]

I agree with Andres point if he said that. Shit is all rigged. Respect him for saying that. .

Doesn't mean he was a great lyricist on the level of pun, Nas, hov, X, etc.
He was talking about Killer Mike. Keep up, champ.

[Kblaze8855]

Killer mike said that. One of the many people you would know if you had an informed enough opinion to be ranking the intelligence of rappers by region. By the way, someone actually did a study on rapper vocabulary and word usage, and DMX came in maybe at the very bottom. If he wasn’t dead last, he was very near it. He was actually below both Jeezy and Gucci. Not that any of that shit decides if you can rap. Biz Markie and Eminem are almost tied. You can’t measure rapping ability that way.

This is one of those things where every single person the least been informed on the subject would come down on the same side so I can see there’s really no need to do all this. You clearly don’t listen to or really know these people which is the only reason you will have these opinions. I can’t get mad at an opinion built on the foundation of ignorance. It would be nice if you weren’t always so confident in opinions built on nothing, but it is what it is.

[tpols]

I just looked it up and wu tang clan is #1 supposedly. It's easier to be diverse when you have a whole squad. But that's still NY.

[tpols]

DMX only did bad in that study because they over count all the times he said dog, for, my, whaaaaat... in his lyrics. But if you look at the orchestration he laid it all down with his non commercial hits, the guy was a total savage, poet, an a philosopher all in one.

[tpols]

It's funny I remember on the radio they censored "why did Bush knock down the towers, why you around them cowards?" but they won't censor rappers rapping drill music talking about killing each other and their communities. The media is seriously corrupted.

I'm sorry I'm going off on a tangent.

[L.Kizzle]

I swear, sometimes it seems like you’re speaking directly from 1997. The south pretty much took over hip-hop 15-20 years ago.
Scarface, 3000 and recently Wayne are usually the only southern names in the top 10. After that, who's usually the next southern rapper on an All-Time list .... I'm thinking I'm thinking ...
Hell, DJ Premier is from Houston but you'll never know it.

[Charlie Sheen]

From what the OGs say, he's was that dude and Cold Crush Bros would kill anyone, including the Furious Five. Sugar Hill Gang don't even count. None of the original rappers even respect them.

That's more of a Pete Maravich... fans from his time will die on that hill.

[Kblaze8855]

Scarface, 3000 and recently Wayne are usually the only southern names in the top 10. After that, who's usually the next southern rapper on an All-Time list .... I'm thinking I'm thinking ...
Hell, DJ Premier is from Houston but you'll never know it.

you talk to people 35 and under J. Cole is ahead of Scarface.

[L.Kizzle]

That's more of a Pete Maravich... fans from his time will die on that hill.

Nah, I got it. A classic Globetrotter would probably best describe him. Meadowlark Lemom or Marques Haynes.

[L.Kizzle]

you talk to people 35 and under J. Cole is ahead of Scarface.
Most people 35 and under have most likely never heard a Scatface record.

[Charlie Sheen]

Most people 35 and under have most likely never heard a Scatface record.

They 100% have and do not realize it.

[tpols]

Most people 35 and under have most likely never heard a Scatface record.

I have and he's lyrically not impressive although very aggressive.


https://youtu.be/uAeApFut7o0?si=AfJzNG8kOsgE_5Dn

Compare that to...


https://youtu.be/9V2AeKS4l28?si=aeMGOTXjlx-X0Fhj

Is it really close?

[Charlie Sheen]

hiphop is one of those topics where i almost never care what the conclusion is as long as you can reason your way to get there.

[L.Kizzle]

They 100% have and do not realize it.

Thos generation of young folks is not like the last. There was a recent social media post trending because this young lady probably in her 20s didn't know that LL Cool J used to be a rapper.

I remember talking to someone a couple of years ago about the Bill Cosby and they didn't know Bill Cosby was a comedian. They just thought he came out of no where with the Cosby Show.

They're just not informed as the previous generations.

[Norcaliblunt]

Eminem is basically just Big L’s multisyllabic flow and horrorcore content mixed with the cartoon Detroit sound of ICP, Esham, and Kid Rock. Later on add in some Twista and the midwest chopper style and that’s Eminem’s whole steez.

[Hey Yo]

https://youtu.be/U7M7d8u40I4?si=NVnAKAGI8SjjZVNB

[L.Kizzle]

Kool Moe Dee madd a top 50 MC list back in the day and had Caz at number 6 and no Big L.

[RRR3]

Kool Moe Dee madd a top 50 MC list back in the day and had Caz at number 6 and no Big L.
Kool Moe Dee's list was terrible and self serving and Big L would destroy pretty much everyone he named, if not all of them. People talk about Jay-Z like he's one of the GOATs (and he is for a variety of reasons) but when he did a freestyle with Big L, he was completely and utterly decimated. It was embarrassing tbh.

[ShawkFactory]

Eminem is basically just Big L’s multisyllabic flow and horrorcore content mixed with the cartoon Detroit sound of ICP, Esham, and Kid Rock. Later on add in some Twista and the midwest chopper style and that’s Eminem’s whole steez.

Seems like a fairly interesting combination, no?

[FultzNationRISE]

Scarface, 3000 and recently Wayne are usually the only southern names in the top 10. After that, who's usually the next southern rapper on an All-Time list .... I'm thinking I'm thinking ...
Hell, DJ Premier is from Houston but you'll never know it.



https://youtu.be/sJXxGDPMtYY?si=vZTH_U-rgScFwWBv

[Kblaze8855]

Kool Moe Dee madd a top 50 MC list back in the day and had Caz at number 6 and no Big L.

Neither was Eminem. But this was the top






6.Grand Master Caz
5.Kool Moe Dee
4.Big Daddy Kane
3.KRS-One
2.Rakim
1.Melle Mel


Obviously he favors his time as people tend to do. Doesn’t mean Caz or Mel can out rap Nas.

[L.Kizzle]

Neither was Eminem. But this was the top




Obviously he favors his time as people tend to do. Doesn’t mean Caz or Mel can out rap Nas.
Didn't this list come out in like 98?

[L.Kizzle]

https://www.complex.com/music/a/complexstaff3/the-best-rapper-alive-every-year-since-1979