Shaq was criticized A LOT for his lack of skill/fundamentals/finesse

[Im Still Ballin]

Looking over these old Usenet threads from the '90s and '00s, this is a constant criticism of Shaq that stands out. And not just free throws: his lack of post moves, that he only dunks, no shooting range, poor rebounding, and passing, etc.

But I guess it doesn't help that O'Neal was being compared to Hakeem, Kareem, Robinson, and Ewing. Some of these arguments are completely ridiculous though; the same ones certain ISH posters have used against Giannis. And Dwight as well. But you don't get extra points for style.


Oct 9, 1996

Your hero worship is letting you down. The Bulls beat Orlando
because Shaq's game is limited to 4-6 ft. in front of the basket.
If Shaq even had Bill Wennington's jump shot that series could have
been very different, even with all the injuries.

Chicago's defense took the ball out of Penny's hands because he
can do more with it than Shaq. The Bulls dared Shaq to beat them
and he couldn't even come close because his game is one-dimensional.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.sport.basketball.pro/c/iDn-6JyKa5A/m/JbjOrpKfvcsJ


Sep 29, 1996


>despite being on a talent
>laden team with many other scoring options.
>The scary thing? Every year Shaq's game gets better. Each year his
>range extends further from the basket.

His FT% goes DOWN every year, and he has half the range of Olajuwon.
He also has about 1/10 the amount of moves and 1/100 of the attitude
of Hakeem.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.sport.basketball.pro/c/iDn-6JyKa5A/m/Dxig0cVBH1AJ


Jul 28, 1996

I think that a big part of Shaq's game being ripped is that while he's
putting up amazing stats, we feel that he should be capable of much more.

Someone mentioned that he's not a good rebounder because he doesn't box
out well. Hey, he's still averaging more than 10/game. A criticism could
be that he relies too much on his "god-given" talents rather than
fundamentals. Boxing out should come with time. How old is he now? 24?
We're looking at another 4 years before he starts to reach his prime. It
might take him a little time, but his rebounding should get better.

O'Neal doesn't have a perimeter game, but are centers really required to
have an outside touch? Yes, the other elite centers have solid jumpers
(Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson), but they've all developed them over time.

What seems to be in question is Shaq's work ethic--- there seems to be
this opinion that he's not focused enough on basketball, that his other
careers are distractions. Well... if this is the case, well, he's
sacrificing a little of his potential by not practicing endlessly.

I wouldn't worry about that. He may NEVER be the very best, but even at
this point(in his raw state) he's still one of the best and still highly
dominating.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.sport.basketball.pro/c/fLZvC0kTZxU/m/AIOmBouTOBAJ


Jul 19, 1996

Shaq is a 7' 300lb center with a couple of low post dunk moves and no
other game. He is also not interested in improving his game. He went to LA
to hang with the gliterazi and be closer to what he perceives to be his
claim to celebrity. Eventually he will get injured and spend more time
driving around with his celeb pals in fancy cars and suits. Shaq is a
product. LA will probably make their money back -- so I'm not saying it
was a bad business decision for either side. But Shaq will never lead a
team to a cahmpionship on his back. He is young enough to improve but has
showed no desire to get down and dirty ...!!

The Lakers before Cedric and Nick got flakey and Magic thought the team
was just there for his whims -- were actually becoming a good team?! As
far as their prosepcts, I would have kept Vlade and reinforced him with
Rodman who would have cost less and also sold tickets ... either way
Rodman and Vlade or now with Rooks and Shaqfu they will be a playofff team
and make a little run -- but they won't get past Houston or Seatlle and
maybe not even past San Antonio or Utah - at least for a few years. And
will they be able to keep all the other talent for years to come ? Will
Kobe be worht anything within the next 4 years ?

I think Shaq will never get a ring because he doesn't have the focus and
dedication or singlemindedness of Jordan or Hakeem or even Barkley.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.sport.basketball.pro/c/ejp7h9L0lNQ/m/Zi44eSWEaQ8J


May 13, 1996

Scoring the most points? Against Detroit and Atlanta!!!! So what?
Better take a closer look at the facts behind your stats. If Shaq was
anything more than a big, albeit fast, body he would make a great
baskeball player. However, he has no skills what so ever. I'm
waiting for him to develop a jump shot. Christ! I would be happy if
he could hit some free throws. Imagine if he hit 75 or 80% from the
charity stripe. He probably would have taken the scoring title from
the best player in the game, Jordan. Till he loses his one
dimensional game, he can wonder what its like to have a few rings on
his hand. Dunk, dunk, dunk. Imagine a center shooting like Ewing
with the size of Shaq. Totally impossible to defend.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.sport.basketball.pro/c/fxEobLPIwjg/m/f78q54IdbF4J


Feb 12, 1996

Is it just me or is Shaq *THE* most overrated player in the
league. I think that if just about anyone in the world were 7'1" 300lbs
they could do anything Shaq does. He does deserve to be in the league
because of the physically dominating presence that he is. My point is,
he is the least talented player in the league.

Take for example: His inability to hit free throws. Almost
every other all-star center, and quite a few of the upper echelon centers
in the league can, for example Rik Smits is an 81% shooter, but he can't
hit two in a row if his life depended on it.

Example 2: His inability to shoot outside of 3 feet. Once he
leaves the lane, most players don't even follow him because he can't
shoot worth a damn. Smits, as well as Ewing and Robinson shoot
consistenly 50% or better outside of 15 ft, let alone 3.

Example 3: His inabilty to put the ball on the floor. Ewing,
even though he travels 75% of the time, can go across the lane for the
hook, as can Smits, as could Kareem, and David, and Hakeem will put it on
the floor from the arc and drive. Don't see Shaq doing any of that.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.sport.basketball.pro/c/j3VubUpsV5o/m/iiiixVeM334J

[Im Still Ballin]

...


Dec 9, 1995

Shaq has a limited amount of skill. He can slam...He can
grab boards. But he isn't a team player. He can't pass. The
best player on the Magic is Penny, he does more than Shaq.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.sport.basketball.pro/c/7RrT0ErdtR0/m/gyu-OkDc5vQJ


Oct 26, 1995

Maybe Shaq should learn to shoot free throws plus how to score more than
2 ft away from the basket, then Geiger's tactics would be useless.

p.s. have a fun 6-8 weeks on the sideline Shaq! Lets watch that extra
30-40 pounds of muscle turn to fat.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.sport.basketball.pro/c/yGE4o4yE8WU/m/DS9KC91_5SYJ


Oct 27, 1995

Bravissimo!!! Shaq put on an extra 30 lbs. over the summer probably in hopes of making
himself look scarier to his opposition. If that's the case, then he really
was setting himself up for more hacking. Bulking up sure ain't gonna help him
magically develop any kind of shot more than 1 foot away from the basket.

Perhaps he should have concentrated on making himself look at least half as smart
as those kids on his "Shaq and the Beanstalk"-reading-is-good commercials.
And now that he's out for a couple of weeks maybe he can visit one of those buildings
that house a whole bunch of books, and finally find out what those pesky things
called 'fundamentals' are.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.sport.basketball.pro/c/yGE4o4yE8WU/m/0mZ-dtGsP-AJ


Oct 31, 1995

If Shaq was a decent player he would have realized that the teams that
play him are going to attack him when he gets close to the basket.
GET A SHOT THAT IS NOT A DUNK AND YOU WON"T HAVE A PROBLEM!!!!!!!

CRISSAKES, HE DID NOT EVEN GO TO PETE NEWELL"S BIG MAN"S CAMP UNTIL PAT
WILLIAMS (ORLANDO GM) MADE HIM GO. YOU FIGURE IT OUT.....MAKING RECORDS
(BAD ONE"S AT THAT) IS NO WAY TO DEVELOP YOUR GAME......

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.sport.basketball.pro/c/yGE4o4yE8WU/m/AuOw_VzrjXQJ



>Shaq is unstoppable right now.

Only from a couple of inches away from the basket. Face it, he has no
game. Sure, he can dunk thunderously, but that's where it all stops.
He possesses no grace, no agility, no elegance; power can be nice, but
it is more lackluster than anything else. So please, don't even mention
his name along with Wilt Chamberlain's or Hakeem Olajuwon's in the same
breath. You'd be doing a horrendously obscene injustice to two of the
greatest centers ever.


Mar 19, 1995

Well put.... Just what my thoughts are. He has absolutely no skills as a
basketball player. I wonder how he gets all his dunks???? Some people say
he's fast and agile but the truth is he shoves people and no idiot is going
to satnd up to a 300 pound person going for a dunk. And no I am not a
Spurs fan.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.sport.basketball.pro/c/TUWzUaGIV8s/m/GgBXxffOSqAJ


Jan 29, 1995

If I were to rate the most over-rated plaver ever to come out of
college, I'd have to give it to Danny Ferry, with Reggie Williams a close
second.

In the league right now, I'd put the Shaq-man on top of the list.
he is a dominant player, no doubt, but in his third year, he has yet to
do ANYTHING in order to draw the comparassons to Wilt, Russell, and the others.
Shaq's entire offensive game is based on offensive fouls, which the ref's are
too chicken-sh*t to call, because fans are paying $30.00 and up a night to
see him play. His defensive game is based on intimidation, and he is an
average rebounder at best... The only reason he is in the top ten is because
he is so big and strong.
When he was in his prime, Kevin McHale (sp?) would have made Shaq
beg for mercy. McHale (not even a 5-man) had more low-post playing abillity
in his pinky fingernail than Shaq has in his entire body.

Kemp, Webber, Pippen, G. Payton, and Majerle are all extremely
over-rated too. (this is coming from a suns fan, so you know I'm biased)

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.sport.basketball.pro/c/YS-ENZRB4EI/m/uJCLVV3o3n0J

[FultzNationRISE]

Compared to Giannis and Dwert Shaq’s bag was a Louis Vuitton.

[highwhey]

OP hasn't touched grass since the Obama administration.

[Im Still Ballin]

Compared to Giannis and Dwert Shaq’s bag was a Louis Vuitton.

30 points is 30 points, bro. Fans were complaining that Shaq was getting away with offensive fouls the minute he came into the league. Giannis bending the rules (travelling) is fair play. Give the man his props!

[Carbine]

Who cares about this shit? If you're interested in this topic just go watch the games for yourself, they're on YouTube.

Shaq was skillful, clearly. He just couldn't shoot the ball.

[SouBeachTalents]

30 points is 30 points, bro. Fans were complaining that Shaq was getting away with offensive fouls the minute he came into the league. Giannis bending the rules (travelling) is fair play. Give the man his props!
I disagree with this, 30 points is not always 30 points. It was with Shaq, who's shortcomings didn't prevent him from becoming one of the most dominant players ever. But as we've seen with the likes of Harden & Embiid in the playoffs, how you get 30 points actually matters a lot. Some styles of play simply aren't as sustainable as others, especially come playoff time.

[FultzNationRISE]

30 points is 30 points, bro. Fans were complaining that Shaq was getting away with offensive fouls the minute he came into the league. Giannis bending the rules (travelling) is fair play. Give the man his props!


I understand everyone benefits from loosely enforced rules. But most stars would still be good scorers regardless, just less so. I dont think thats true of Giannis. Without the current rules (or lack thereof) I think he’d be Dennis Rodman.

Which is obviously not a bad thing impact wise. And I like Giannis as an overall dude. I just think him being a star and scoring like 28 ppg makes the league look a bit silly, because his lack of skill is so glaring.

Shaq used bully ball because he could. He still had a lot of skill.

Giannis and to a lessert extent Dwert have very clunky, minimal skillsets. At least with Dwert it got acknowledged that it was ugly but effective. I feel like nobody really mentions that Giannis is actually clumsy af with a basketball when he’s being mentioned as a perennial mvp.

[Im Still Ballin]

I understand everyone benefits from loosely enforced rules. But most stars would still be good scorers regardless, just less so. I dont think thats true of Giannis. Without the current rules (or lack thereof) I think he’d be Dennis Rodman.

You don't think he's got a little bit more going for himself on offense than Dennis Rodman? He'd be like a worse-shooting David Robinson with more power attacking the rim. Instead of playing from the three-point line, he'd attack from the elbow in high-post face-up fashion.

That's what I think anyways. I'm aware his shooting and post-up skills are very weak. But his face-up, off-the-dribble slashing combined with his passing makes him offensively potent in any era.


Which is obviously not a bad thing impact wise. And I like Giannis as an overall dude. I just think him being a star and scoring like 28 ppg makes the league look a bit silly, because his lack of skill is so glaring.

Shaq used bully ball because he could. He still had a lot of skill.

Giannis and to a lessert extent Dwert have very clunky, minimal skillsets. At least with Dwert it got acknowledged that it was ugly but effective. I feel like nobody really mentions that Giannis is actually clumsy af with a basketball when he’s being mentioned as a perennial mvp.

Giannis is a good ball handler and passer for a 6'11" PF/C. Would you not agree? Are these not skills?

[FultzNationRISE]

You don't think he's got a little bit more going for himself on offense than Dennis Rodman? He'd be like a worse-shooting David Robinson with more power attacking the rim. Instead of playing from the three-point line, he'd attack from the elbow in high-post face-up fashion.

That's what I think anyways. I'm aware his shooting and post-up skills are very weak. But his face-up, off-the-dribble slashing combined with his passing makes him offensively potent in any era.



Giannis is a good ball handler and passer for a 6'11" PF/C. Would you not agree? Are these not skills?

Bro stop. 6’11 is like… Jokic.

In the real world Giannis is like 6’9 tops. His handle is definitely not anything special for an NBA player of his height.


https://images.actionnetwork.com/1200x675/blog/2022/01/jokic-antetokounmpo.jpg

[tpols]

I disagree with this, 30 points is not always 30 points. It was with Shaq, who's shortcomings didn't prevent him from becoming one of the most dominant players ever. But as we've seen with the likes of Harden & Embiid in the playoffs, how you get 30 points actually matters a lot. Some styles of play simply aren't as sustainable as others, especially come playoff time.

As a pickup hooper who normally has to take the biggest guy it's taxing having to bang with 250+ lbs. Can't even imagine Shaq. I'd probably quit on the spot. It's like getting beat up.

[Im Still Ballin]

Bro stop. 6’11 is like… Jokic.

In the real world Giannis is like 6’9 tops. His handle is definitely not anything special for an NBA player of his height.


https://images.actionnetwork.com/1200x675/blog/2022/01/jokic-antetokounmpo.jpg

Celebheights.com has Giannis at 6'10.5" barefoot height. This is a website dedicated to discussing the heights of famous people. I think it's an accurate measurement.

[bdonovan]

I remember at the time IRL people used to say this to me about Shaq. There was something very personal about people's criticism. They were dead-set that Shaq succeeded only through brute force (even though it was obvious if you watched his game, he put the work in the gym which other huge players like Priest Lauderdale never did; and also had technique). In their blind vehemence and dislike of Shaq, I saw a similar dynamic to those who abandon all logic in their hate of players like LeBron today. Because they feel threatened in some psychological way.

[rawimpact]

Bro stop. 6’11 is like… Jokic.

In the real world Giannis is like 6’9 tops. His handle is definitely not anything special for an NBA player of his height.


https://images.actionnetwork.com/1200x675/blog/2022/01/jokic-antetokounmpo.jpg


How? Dudes are as tall as the shot clock according to your own picture

[StrongLurk]

Anyone who says Shaq isn't skilled either never watched him play or is a Kobe stan.

[Reggie43]

Every era had its share of dumb fans. Why do we even need to discuss what they had to say?

[Akeem34TheDream]

How? Dudes are as tall as the shot clock according to your own picture

:roll:

[FultzNationRISE]

https://exnba.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/shaq-jordan-one-on-one.gif



https://media1.giphy.com/media/GbGwyEyiPB9eM/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952gygj3ck1ocsxh1rwa7cmm6e7wgdv t6q27y7la80p&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g


https://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/Shaquille%20Oneal/shaqmovelol.gif


https://media2.giphy.com/media/rzlvuxGJreoNy/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952zpjttoih5pgob88lbmr60icd4ngb zgm36u6aknpz&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g


“Lack of skill” :oldlol:

[tpols]

A lot of people are WOW'ed by shaqs freakish build and coordination and athleticism. It's like a spectacle seeing king Kong play. His on court chemistry in terms of enhancing those around him was nil though. A dumpy looking Jokic is 1000x better at enhancing his teammates and is why he won with way less. Imagine prime Kobe on the nuggets.... they would never come close to losing.

[8Ball]

Every era had its share of dumb fans. Why do we even need to discuss what they had to say?


:applause:

The only big that isn't criticized right now is Jokic.

But even he was criticized for being out of shape earlier in his career.


Every fan wants the bigs to play a certain way.

[tpols]

https://exnba.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/shaq-jordan-one-on-one.gif



https://media1.giphy.com/media/GbGwyEyiPB9eM/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952gygj3ck1ocsxh1rwa7cmm6e7wgdv t6q27y7la80p&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g


https://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/Shaquille%20Oneal/shaqmovelol.gif


https://media2.giphy.com/media/rzlvuxGJreoNy/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952zpjttoih5pgob88lbmr60icd4ngb zgm36u6aknpz&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g


“Lack of skill” :oldlol:

When you're as physically talented as Shaq is you get used to just dominating on your own. We can call it "wilt syndrome". So dominant individually you dont know how to enhance others. But basketball is a team game. Enhancing others is a paramount factor.

Just look at Kareem and Magic. Kareem barely won 1 title in his prime while Magic won 5. Because Magic elevated everybody and Kareem as spectacular as he was individually elevated nobody.

[StrongLurk]

When you're as physically talented as Shaq is you get used to just dominating on your own. We can call it "wilt syndrome". So dominant individually you dont know how to enhance others. But basketball is a team game. Enhancing others is a paramount factor.

Just look at Kareem and Magic. Kareem barely won 1 title in his prime while Magic won 5. Because Magic elevated everybody and Kareem as spectacular as he was individually elevated nobody.

The irony of you, a Kobe stan, championing the idea of "elevating others" is hilarious considering Kobe's style of play and how much you crap on Lebron's style of play.

But hey, you're a Kobe stan, you'll do anything to hate on Shaq and Lebron at any moment. Logic isn't needed for you.

[tpols]

The irony of you, a Kobe stan, championing the idea of "elevating others" is hilarious considering Kobe's style of play and how much you crap on Lebron's style of play.

But hey, you're a Kobe stan, you'll do anything to hate on Shaq and Lebron at any moment. Logic isn't needed for you.

Kobe led top ball movement offenses like Shaq or lebron never did and demonstrated a work ethic completely unparalleled compared to them which had a huge intangibles effect.

He also led us back to Gold internationally when we had failed since the MJ era.

Watch your mouth talking about irony.

[StrongLurk]

Kobe led top ball movement offenses like Shaq or lebron never did and demonstrated a work ethic completely unparalleled compared to them which had a huge intangibles effect.

He also led us back to Gold internationally when we had failed since the MJ era.

Watch your mouth talking about irony.

This whole post is either non-sense or completely unrelated.

Remember you just posted "Just look at Kareem and Magic. Kareem barely won 1 title in his prime while Magic won 5. Because Magic elevated everybody and Kareem as spectacular as he was individually elevated nobody."

You just argued that a PG skillset/approach is better than a "high-scoring/individual approach". The irony is too much.

[tpols]

Look at the team assist ranks. They speak for themselves.

Magic and Kobe both led top passing teams.

[ShawkFactory]

Look at the team assist ranks. They speak for themselves.

Magic and Kobe both led top passing teams.

A center being the star of a team is going to have less overall assists than a guard being one. It's just the nature of basketball.

It doesn't mean that the guards are better players.

[tpols]

A center being the star of a team is going to have less overall assists than a guard being one. It's just the nature of basketball.

It doesn't mean that the guards are better players.

Not true at all.

The Nuggets just won a championship with their team being top ranked in dimes and best player being a big man.

[ShawkFactory]

Not true at all.

The Nuggets just won a championship with their team being top ranked in dimes and best player being a big man.

Okay. That's an obvious outlier.

But even with that..do we think that happens in the 80s/90s/00s? It's a different game now. Jokic wouldn't be bringing the ball up or playing at the top of the key every possession.

If you want to argue that things will be different going forward then go for it but that's not how it's always been. The age of positionless basketball is another conversation.

[SouBeachTalents]

Not true at all.

The Nuggets just won a championship with their team being top ranked in dimes and best player being a big man.
Yeah, when that center averages an unprecedented 10 assists per game, that won't be the case :lol

[Im Still Ballin]

Kobe was a great passer. Shaq was the best passer out of all the great '90s centers. Both elevated their teammates. It is what it is.

[Baller234]

Shaq lost some good will from the fans after he left Orlando. EVERYONE loved Shaq when he first entered the league, but that was the first sign that he had a massive ego.

It wasn't like Barkley leaving the Sixers. The Magic had the pieces to be a contender and people loved watching him and Penny play together.

[John8204]

Shaq lost some good will from the fans after he left Orlando. EVERYONE loved Shaq when he first entered the league, but that was the first sign that he had a massive ego.

It wasn't like Barkley leaving the Sixers. The Magic had the pieces to be a contender and people loved watching him and Penny play together.

Nostalgia is a huge factor in Shaq's "legacy", imagine if Shaq played in the 24/7 news cycle. Year after year getting swept, putting out movies like Kazam and Steel. Going from a player that could run to the waddler he became, then leaving a contender to go Hollywood and failing until Kobe came along. When this generation goes away Shaq's legacy will fall below the more deserving guys like Dr J and Moses Malone...because that's how these things happen.

[Im Still Ballin]

Sean Hopkins keeping it real in 1994:


Jan 30, 1994

Over the past two weeks, I have been reading people's views about Shaq
and he scores most of his points. First off, I will concede that he
could score about 2-4 pts more a game if he hits his free throws. But
I am sick of hearing that he only scores on dunks.
SO WHAT, if he scores on dunks??? What is the highest percentage shot
in the league?? It is the dunk. In fact most players would love to be able
to dunk as much as Shaq can but they are not able to do it. I would love to
have him dunk about 13-15 times a game but that is not always possible.
He can beat his man and dunk, why not. He is learning a baseline
jumper and a baby hook, but why shoot those when you can get to the basket
and lay it up or dunk it all game long. The kid can overpower any center in
the league. He has done it to Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, and many others.
So why use the power and get to the hole.

I cant understand how come so people are blinded when it comes to Shaq.
He is an awesome talent with a ton of potential. He is developing new
ways to beat people and slam on them. I just personally feel that a lot
of Shaq bashers have not seen but 1 or 2 games of this year. I have seen
every game (except over X-mas break) and I will tell you that he is much
better than last year.

Watch out NBA because in 2-3 years, no one will be able to stop Shaq down
low even those underclassmen in college.

Sean Hopkins

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.sport.basketball.pro/c/Oq0o6Bnv2Z8/m/xc8DRvTPRRAJ