The 2011-2014 Heat don't seem stacked anymore

[StrongLurk]

At least compared to so many of the teams that have existed since 2017.

2011 Heat:
Mike Bibby (end of career)
Wade
Lebron
Bosh
Joel Anthony (lol) or Big Z (end of career)

Then the 2011 Heat was shit with Haslem, Mike Miller (actually decent but was always hurt) James Jones, Mario Chalmers, Juwan Howard (end of career), Eddie House.

Shit just look at the starting lineups of the Bucks/Celtics this year. They look just as good or even better than those Heat teams. Biggest difference is just Lebron being so much better than everyone else outside of the 2011 finals.

Celtics:
Jrue Holiday
Jason Tatum
Jaylen Brown
Al Horford
Kristaps

Bucks:
Damien Lillard
Khris Middleton
Bobby Portis
Giannis
Brook Lopez

[Axe]

I heard today's lakers were so stacked they couldn't even win their first preseason game without kong. :ohwell:

[Airupthere]

Such a nice legacy lebron has added to the nba

[tomtucker]

At least compared to so many of the teams that have existed since 2017.

2011 Heat:
Mike Bibby (end of career)
Wade
Lebron
Bosh
Joel Anthony (lol) or Big Z (end of career)

Then the 2011 Heat was shit with Haslem, Mike Miller (actually decent but was always hurt) James Jones, Mario Chalmers, Juwan Howard (end of career), Eddie House.

Shit just look at the starting lineups of the Bucks/Celtics this year. They look just as good or even better than those Heat teams. Biggest difference is just Lebron being so much better than everyone else outside of the 2011 finals.

Celtics:
Jrue Holiday
Jason Tatum
Jaylen Brown
Al Horford
Kristaps

Bucks:
Damien Lillard
Khris Middleton
Bobby Portis
Giannis
Brook Lopez

ehh, i believe you are forgetting a certain guy named Ray Allen.....!!

Lebron
D-Wade
Bosh
Allen
Andersen

An absolute STACKED and tough team.... who would destroy ANY team in the 2023-24 season!

[sdot_thadon]

They weren't ever to the level the narrative painted them at. 2011 was the big 3 and not much else. 2012 on Dwade wasn't the same 2011 Wade anymore, which wasn't even the same as 2010 Wade if we're being completely honest. In response the supporting cast got better. 2013 was a great team imo that could compete with all time greats. 2014 was a run down tired veteran team that was maybe the worst season as a team. They didn't have the personnel to run Spoelstra's defensive strategy anymore by 2014. I always felt the shock reputatuon of the team up outlived its reality by a bit. Even caused every roster following for Lebron to be called a super team when they weren't lol.

[tpols]

2011 Heat

Lebron 26 years old
Wade 29 years old
Bosh 26 years old

2023 Bucks

Dame 33 years old
Middleton 32 years old
Giannis 29 years old


And it's funny because you'll say Mike Bibby was ancient... he was younger than current Dame in 2011. And the same exact age as Kris Middleton. Big Z is ancient... he's the same exact age as Brook Lopez right now.

Your whole argument is just extremely biased and not based in reality. The Heat were massive +175 title odds favorites starting in 2011 with 2 MVP talents in their primes. Bucks are +600 right now. Celtics are more prime but still +450.

It's not even close...

[sdot_thadon]

2011 Heat

Lebron 26 years old
Wade 29 years old
Bosh 26 years old

2023 Bucks

Dame 33 years old
Middleton 32 years old
Giannis 29 years old


And it's funny because you'll say Mike Bibby was ancient... he was younger than current Dame in 2011. And the same exact age as Kris Middleton. Big Z is ancient... he's the same exact age as Brook Lopez right now.

Your whole argument is just extremely biased and not based in reality. The Heat were massive +175 title odds favorites starting in 2011 with 2 MVP talents in their primes. Bucks are +600 right now. Celtics are more prime but still +450.

It's not even close...

If you watched the games you'd know clearly they weren't seen as ancient because of their age as much as their abilities to contribute by that point. It's no secret that guys last longer now than that time frame and even more so than guys the decades before. Most guys were toast alot younger than its happened for our current generation.

[tpols]

If you watched the games you'd know clearly they weren't seen as ancient because of their age as much as their abilities to contribute by that point. It's no secret that guys last longer now than that time frame and even more so than guys the decades before. Most guys were toast alot younger than its happened for our current generation.

The Heats core and bench players as a whole were much younger than the Bucks.

And they featured 2/3 of the best players in the league on one team. These examples don't come remotely close to that and it's reflected in the odds.

There's not even really a solid example today of a pair like Wade and LeBron teaming up since after Jokic you could name like 5 or 6 guys to claim the number 2 spot.

In 2010 it was Lebron Kobe Wade clear cut and no room for debate. So the collusion between the two was totally unprecedented.

[ArbitraryWater]

2011 Heat

Lebron 26 years old
Wade 29 years old
Bosh 26 years old

2023 Bucks

Dame 33 years old
Middleton 32 years old
Giannis 29 years old


And it's funny because you'll say Mike Bibby was ancient... he was younger than current Dame in 2011. And the same exact age as Kris Middleton. Big Z is ancient... he's the same exact age as Brook Lopez right now.

Your whole argument is just extremely biased and not based in reality. The Heat were massive +175 title odds favorites starting in 2011 with 2 MVP talents in their primes. Bucks are +600 right now. Celtics are more prime but still +450.

It's not even close...


Thats nothing nowadays.

[sdot_thadon]

The Heats core and bench players as a whole were much younger than the Bucks.

And they featured 2/3 of the best players in the league on one team. These examples don't come remotely close to that and it's reflected in the odds.

There's not even really a solid example today of a pair like Wade and LeBron teaming up since after Jokic you could name like 5 or 6 guys to claim the number 2 spot.

In 2010 it was Lebron Kobe Wade clear cut and no room for debate. So the collusion between the two was totally unprecedented.

The point that is clearly whooshing way over your head is this was 10 years ago, this era has different longevity period. 33 was one foot in the grave in 2013 for 98.7% of players' usefulness. Sure some guys could still hang on to roster spots for a variety of reasons, but ask yourself how many were able to play a prominent, important role. Not many.

[tpols]

The point that is clearly whooshing way over your head is this was 10 years ago, this era has different longevity period. 33 was one foot in the grave in 2013 for 98.7% of players' usefulness. Sure some guys could still hang on to roster spots for a variety of reasons, but ask yourself how many were able to play a prominent, important role. Not many.

Tons of players today have fallen off in their early 30s. Kawhi and Paul George can barely string 2 games together. AD gets hurt all the time and he's only 30. Middleton has been banged up and out at that age. Klay too. Kyrie and Durant out here missing whole seasons in their early 30s. Theres countless examples.

There's nothing about today that changed from 12 years ago from an injury perspective. We aren't talking true old school basketball going from today to a decade ago. Nothing changed but the spacing. The rules aren't different. We aren't comparing today to 90s prison ball.

[8Ball]

At least compared to so many of the teams that have existed since 2017.

2011 Heat:
Mike Bibby (end of career)
Wade
Lebron
Bosh
Joel Anthony (lol) or Big Z (end of career)

Then the 2011 Heat was shit with Haslem, Mike Miller (actually decent but was always hurt) James Jones, Mario Chalmers, Juwan Howard (end of career), Eddie House.

Shit just look at the starting lineups of the Bucks/Celtics this year. They look just as good or even better than those Heat teams. Biggest difference is just Lebron being so much better than everyone else outside of the 2011 finals.

Celtics:
Jrue Holiday
Jason Tatum
Jaylen Brown
Al Horford
Kristaps

Bucks:
Damien Lillard
Khris Middleton
Bobby Portis
Giannis
Brook Lopez

They never were stacked historically speaking.

Compare that 2011 lineup with the 86 Celtics or 87 Lakers or 2017 Warriors.

They were a top 3 team.

[Kblaze8855]

Lebron 26 years old
Wade 29 years old
Bosh 26 years old

2023 Bucks

Dame 33 years old
Middleton 32 years old
Giannis 29 years old


And it's funny because you'll say Mike Bibby was ancient... he was younger than current Dame in 2011. And the same exact age as Kris Middleton. Big Z is ancient... he's the same exact age as Brook Lopez right now.



people on here have been saying the big three Celtics don’t count as team hopping in their prime for 10 years on here when the youngest of them was younger than Kyrie is now, and the oldest was younger than Dame was entering last season.


obviously, people are only as old as they have to be for the argument of the moment.

[GimmeThat]

you're saying the amount of potential pay cut those teams had taken as a whole had consistently fallen under the radar no matter who you ask

if players knew what it takes to win a championship ring automatically qualifies the team as stacked, that's a lot of bad blood between players and owners

[Full Court]

At least compared to so many of the teams that have existed since 2017.

2011 Heat:
Mike Bibby (end of career)
Wade
Lebron
Bosh
Joel Anthony (lol) or Big Z (end of career)

Then the 2011 Heat was shit with Haslem, Mike Miller (actually decent but was always hurt) James Jones, Mario Chalmers, Juwan Howard (end of career), Eddie House.

Shit just look at the starting lineups of the Bucks/Celtics this year. They look just as good or even better than those Heat teams. Biggest difference is just Lebron being so much better than everyone else outside of the 2011 finals.

Celtics:
Jrue Holiday
Jason Tatum
Jaylen Brown
Al Horford
Kristaps

Bucks:
Damien Lillard
Khris Middleton
Bobby Portis
Giannis
Brook Lopez

That's because there are more stacked teams, so there's a little more balance. The Heat then were by far the most stacked team in the league.

And LOL at the usual low IQ suspects crying about LeShrivel needing more help. :roll: I guess two all stars and another poised-to-be all star isn't enough.

:lebronamazed:

[StrongLurk]

For real though, those Heat teams had major weaknesses in 2011 and 2014. 2012 they were strong because they got better/healthier role players. 2013 they improved the role players even more, but that was offset by DWade's decline in 2013.

Really though, what made the Heat "stacked" was simply Lebron being so good (outside of 2011 finals). Replace Bron with a regular all star and those Heat teams don't even make the finals.

Literally every team KD has been on since 2016 is just as stacked or more stacked than those Heat teams.

[StrongLurk]

At least compared to so many of the teams that have existed since 2017.

2011 Heat:
Mike Bibby (end of career)
Wade
Lebron
Bosh
Joel Anthony (lol) or Big Z (end of career)

Then the 2011 Heat was shit with Haslem, Mike Miller (actually decent but was always hurt) James Jones, Mario Chalmers, Juwan Howard (end of career), Eddie House.

Shit just look at the starting lineups of the Bucks/Celtics this year. They look just as good or even better than those Heat teams. Biggest difference is just Lebron being so much better than everyone else outside of the 2011 finals.

Celtics:
Jrue Holiday
Jason Tatum
Jaylen Brown
Al Horford
Kristaps

Bucks:
Damien Lillard
Khris Middleton
Bobby Portis
Giannis
Brook Lopez

3 months later, the Celtics/Bucks are still indeed stacked.

[warriorfan]

bron stans are so goofy

[iamgine]

If 2011 Heat existed today it would be something like:

Jokic (Bron)
Siakam (Bosh)
Torrey Craig (Joel Anthony)
Justin Holiday (Bibby)
Shai (Wade)

[Trollsmasher]

They have never been
.
The 3 star system is inherently inefficient since the third star never justifies his max contract with the usage and the team is robbed of useful depth.

[ImKobe]

You always have to look at the team relative to where the league was. They were stacked.

[SouBeachTalents]

You always have to look at the team relative to where the league was. They were stacked.
Tell that to the “He won with just Gasol!” crowd.

[ShawkFactory]

You always have to look at the team relative to where the league was. They were stacked.

I agree. Although a lot of people conveniently forget this idea whenever the argument suits. Happens all the time.

“So and so won with X as the second best player and so and so won with a better second best player. Therefore the first guy is better”.

Context is added when needed. You know this, and frequently practice it.

[tpols]

The Heat had the best title odds at winning the championship in the last 25 years outside the KD Curry warriors at +175. And they lost. (choked) :lol

For reference this year Boston is the title favorite at +450. So despite how dominant the Celtics have been this year, their title odds weren't even in the same league as the Heats.

The league has more parity now. Prime Lebron + prime Wade would be like putting Hakeem and Jordan on the same team in the 90s. It was an unprecedented collusion of NBA talent that doesn't exist today.

It would be like Jokic joining the Celtics or Bucks.

[ImKobe]

Tell that to the “He won with just Gasol!” crowd.

Well teams had 2 stars back then so the Lakers weren't way more talented than the rest of the league. Their depth wasn't amazing. Relative to the league they were good but not ahead of other contenders the way the Heat were (OKC u could argue was just as good but those guys were in their early 20s with no championship experience) and Lakers didn't play in a joke Conference either.

2011-13 you have to put things in perspective. Spurs were kind of washed. Kobe was past his prime and Lakers had injury problems, Cs were washed, OKC was too young at the time. EC really didn't have anyone that could legitimately beat Miami.

2014 though you have a point, the Heat weren't that stacked compared to the Spurs. 2013 Heat team is mad underrated in an all-time perspective tho.

[ShawkFactory]

Well teams had 2 stars back then so the Lakers weren't way more talented than the rest of the league. Their depth wasn't amazing. Relative to the league they were good but not ahead of other contenders the way the Heat were (OKC u could argue was just as good but those guys were in their early 20s with no championship experience) and Lakers didn't play in a joke Conference either.

2011-13 you have to put things in perspective. Spurs were kind of washed. Kobe was past his prime and Lakers had injury problems, Cs were washed, OKC was too young at the time. EC really didn't have anyone that could legitimately beat Miami.

2014 though you have a point, the Heat weren't that stacked compared to the Spurs. 2013 Heat team is mad underrated in an all-time perspective tho.

60+ wins and best net rating in the league is pretty impressive for a washed team.

[Axe]

Well teams had 2 stars back then so the Lakers weren't way more talented than the rest of the league. Their depth wasn't amazing. Relative to the league they were good but not ahead of other contenders the way the Heat were (OKC u could argue was just as good but those guys were in their early 20s with no championship experience) and Lakers didn't play in a joke Conference either.
Bryant was blessed to have jackson as his coach bt. They've been to the finals together for several occasions. So sometimes, it could be more than just having talented teammates around your team.

[3ba11]

In the history of the NBA, there's never been a situation where 3 franchise players from 3 different teams in the same conference consolidate power on 1 team - this totally dilutes a conference and consolidates power on 1 team - if someone was trying to rig the conference, this would be one of the primary methods and people forget that it was the top 3 first options from the East joining the same team.. Now who in the hell could possibly lose the conference after that?.. Even LeChoke can't screw that one up

[kawhileonard2]

Squad was stacked!

[Spurs m8]

In the history of the NBA, there's never been a situation where 3 franchise players from 3 different teams in the same conference consolidate power on 1 team - this totally dilutes a conference and consolidates power on 1 team - if someone was trying to rig the conference, this would be one of the primary methods and people forget that it was the top 3 first options from the East joining the same team.. Now who in the hell could possibly lose the conference after that?.. Even LeChoke can't screw that one up

Yep.

What a legacy LeRoid has left on the league....pvssy colluding with no D allowed


Who even watches this shit anymore?....its not even sport

Entertainment for weak betas who worship primadonna weak 'men'

[1987_Lakers]

https://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2818167/duncanmiss.gif

[Spurs m8]

Of course 1987 lakers is online on nye.

Female looking manlet with absolutely no life or friends.

LOSER

[1987_Lakers]

Of course 1987 lakers is online on nye.

Female looking manlet with absolutely no life or friends.

LOSER
You were up at 3am making threads about LeBron.


You mad bro?

[Spurs m8]

Also Tim is 2-1 against leloser in the finals.

Including biggest winning margin in NBA history.
As an old man without a superteam...against a superteam.

He also sent LePvssy back to Cleveland by dismantled the pvssies superteam....

Irrelevant though...as its NYE in your time zone and 1987 is here.

LOSER

[1987_Lakers]

https://i.insider.com/51c85499ecad04a664000001?width=471&format=jpeg

[Spurs m8]

BTW I'm having a rare post as it's new years day here...I'm in my lovely backyard with my family as I sip a drink and my son and wife splash in the pool.

Enjoy your NYE though...you're a winner

[Spurs m8]

He/she is fuming

[RRR3]

BTW I'm having a rare post as it's new years day here...I'm in my lovely backyard with my family as I sip a drink and my son and wife splash in the pool.

Enjoy your NYE though...you're a winner
No one believes this.

[Spurs m8]

Have also had more sex in 2024 than 1987 and rrr3 will have all year.

I'm off to enjoy the sun, losers

[1987_Lakers]

I'm in my lovely backyard with my family as I sip a drink and my son and wife splash in the pool.


In your lovely backyard while still raging about LeBron. :lol

[1987_Lakers]

That Duncan gif really triggered him, good to know to use that in the future.

[Hey Yo]

BTW I'm having a rare post as it's new years day here...I'm in my lovely backyard with my family as I sip a drink and my son and wife splash in the pool.

Enjoy your NYE though...you're a winner

Fake son is fake

[Axe]

That Duncan gif really triggered him, good to know to use that in the future.
To be frank though, he doesn't quite talk about his team that much...

[SATAN]

BTW I'm having a rare post as it's new years day here...I'm in my lovely backyard with my family as I sip a drink and my son and wife splash in the pool.



Hopefully your imaginary friends drowned.

[dazzer87]

Stacked team and only got two rings out of 4 years while playing in the trashy East….:(

[StrongLurk]

At least compared to so many of the teams that have existed since 2017.

2011 Heat:
Mike Bibby (end of career)
Wade
Lebron
Bosh
Joel Anthony (lol) or Big Z (end of career)

Then the 2011 Heat was shit with Haslem, Mike Miller (actually decent but was always hurt) James Jones, Mario Chalmers, Juwan Howard (end of career), Eddie House.

Shit just look at the starting lineups of the Bucks/Celtics this year. They look just as good or even better than those Heat teams. Biggest difference is just Lebron being so much better than everyone else outside of the 2011 finals.

Celtics:
Jrue Holiday
Jason Tatum
Jaylen Brown
Al Horford
Kristaps

Bucks:
Damien Lillard
Khris Middleton
Bobby Portis
Giannis
Brook Lopez

Bumping my post about the Celtics. I called them being uber stacked right at the start of the season, and if they win the chip, then technically they will be one of the most dominant teams of all time.

It's a shame the Bucks had injuries to Giannis and Dame.

[Real Men Wear Green]

This year's Celtics don't belong in this conversation. I personally believe that JB deserves more respect but this year's team only had 1 AllNBA player and plenty of people don't think he's top 5. Doesn't compare to a team with prime James and Wade.

The current Celtics could give them a hard time mainly due to playing style with all the threes but they've got 1 AllNBA player and only 2 Allstars. Great team but not stacked.

[1987_Lakers]

This year's Celtics don't belong in this conversation. I personally believe that JB deserves more respect but this year's team only had 1 AllNBA player and plenty of people don't think he's top 5. Doesn't compare to a team with prime James and Wade.

The current Celtics could give them a hard time mainly due to playing style with all the threes but they've got 1 AllNBA player and only 2 Allstars. Great team but not stacked.

What brings the Celtics down is that they don't have that bonified superstar who is a top 3 player, but if you look at the roster from top to bottom, they are pretty stacked. Almost unfair to have Porzingis, Holiday, & White as your #3-#5 guys.

LeBron's miami teams #4 and #5 options were a 37 year old Ray Allen & Mario Chalmers, both clearly below Boston's supporting casts in terms of talent.

[SouBeachTalents]

This year's Celtics don't belong in this conversation. I personally believe that JB deserves more respect but this year's team only had 1 AllNBA player and plenty of people don't think he's top 5. Doesn't compare to a team with prime James and Wade.

The current Celtics could give them a hard time mainly due to playing style with all the threes but they've got 1 AllNBA player and only 2 Allstars. Great team but not stacked.
:whatever:

[Real Men Wear Green]

What brings the Celtics down is that they don't have that bonified superstar who is a top 3 player, but if you look at the roster from top to bottom, they are pretty stacked. Almost unfair to have Porzingis, Holiday, & White as your #3-#5 guys.

LeBron's miami teams #4 and #5 options were a 37 year old Ray Allen & Mario Chalmers, both clearly below Boston's supporting casts in terms of talent. No one is going to have more than three guys play a major role in the offense consistently. In Boston the the big scorers get 20+ and then you see White average 15 and you're wowed but remember that Porzingis misses about a third of the games. When your top scorers have it going you're really just hoping that the rest of your players are efficient and Miami didn't need as much from their nonstars. Tatum is not the unstoppable scorer James was. When he isn't hitting jumpers you can gang up on his drives and make him inefficient. If James' shot is off you might not even know because prime James could not be kept from the basket even by multiple defenders. As strong and athletic as Tatum is James is on a completely different stratosphere as an explosive powerful athlete. And he's only just over the last season trying to play like a point forward while James had been that in high school. The Celtics aren't the result of 3 superstars deciding to team up, they made great trades but none of those guys is a free agent they just got to add on to the superstars they already had.

[RRR3]

No one is going to have more than three guys play a major role in the offense consistently. In Boston the the big scorers get 20+ and then you see White average 15 and you're wowed but remember that Porzingis misses about a third of the games. When your top scorers have it going you're really just hoping that the rest of your players are efficient and Miami didn't need as much from their nonstars. Tatum is not the unstoppable scorer James was. When he isn't hitting jumpers you can hang up on his drives and make him inefficient. If James' shot is off you might not even know because prime James could not be kept from the basket even by multiple defenders. As strong and athletic as Tatum is James is on a completely different stratosphere as an explosive powerful athlete. And he's only just over the last season trying to play like a point forward while James had been that in high school. The Celtics aren't the result of 3 superstars deciding to team up, they made great trades but none of those guys is a free agent they just got to add on to the superstars they already had.
Is Bosh is a superstar, so is Porzingis lol

[Real Men Wear Green]

Is Bosh is a superstar, so is Porzingis lol
Prime Bosh was a lot luckier with health. If KP stayed healthy he's probably an allstar, possibly AllNBA. Celtics had to win the East without him and may have to go for the last two wins vs Dallas without him. Miami didn't have such a hard time keeping Bosh on the court until after the Heatles broke up.

[1987_Lakers]

Prime Bosh was a lot luckier with health. If KP stayed healthy he's probably an allstar, possibly AllNBA. Celtics had to win the East without him and may have to go for the last two wins vs Dallas without him. Miami didn't have such a hard time keeping Bosh on the court until after the Heatles broke up.

Celtics played bums on their way to the Finals and Porzingis dominated game 1 in his limited minutes vs Dallas. And I expect him to continue to play, doctors say it's a pain tolerance thing.

And this is simply false. Bosh missed tons of big games during their 2012 run.

[RRR3]

Prime Bosh was a lot luckier with health. If KP stayed healthy he's probably an allstar, possibly AllNBA. Celtics had to win the East without him and may have to go for the last two wins vs Dallas without him. Miami didn't have such a hard time keeping Bosh on the court until after the Heatles broke up.
Bosh was hurt for a lot of the 2012 playoffs, including against the Celtics :whatever:

[Axe]

This year's Celtics don't belong in this conversation. I personally believe that JB deserves more respect but this year's team only had 1 AllNBA player and plenty of people don't think he's top 5. Doesn't compare to a team with prime James and Wade.

The current Celtics could give them a hard time mainly due to playing style with all the threes but they've got 1 AllNBA player and only 2 Allstars. Great team but not stacked.
Seems true if people were to look at the history of some main guys in that heat team. Wade, for instance, already had a ring and finals mvp in his resume when the trio was formed rt.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Celtics played bums on their way to the Finals and Porzingis dominated game 1 in his limited minutes vs Dallas. And I expect him to continue to play, doctors say it's a pain tolerance thing. none of which proves them to be a stacked team.


And this is simply false. Bosh missed tons of big games during their 2012 run. If this series goes 7 games and KP plays all of them he will have played 10 games to Bosh 14. And what about the other years?

[1987_Lakers]

none of which proves them to be a stacked team.

If this series goes 7 games and KP plays all of them he will have played 10 games to Bosh 14. And what about the other years?

What about the other years? How about 2013 when Wade was playing on a bad knee in the playoffs and only averaged 16 ppg in the playoffs.

Your only explanation to why Miami is more stacked is "They teamed up". From top to bottom Boston is more talented, any logical person can see this.

[Real Men Wear Green]

What about the other years? How about 2013 when Wade was playing on a bad knee in the playoffs and only averaged 16 ppg in the playoffs.

Your only explanation to why Miami is more stacked is "They teamed up". From top to bottom Boston is more talented, any logical person can see this.
1: I already pointed out how Miami got much more out of Bosh.

2: in 2013 Miami got 3 Allstars. The scoring numbers were not impressive by the standards of today but it was a good supporting cast in the regular season for James. They did fall off in the playoffs but they were ok by the standards of the time.

[1987_Lakers]

1: I already pointed out how Miami got much more out of Bosh.

2: in 2013 Miami got 3 Allstars. The scoring numbers were not impressive by the standards of today but it was a good supporting cast in the regular season for James. They did fall off in the playoffs but they were ok by the standards of the time.

And the 2015 Hawks had 4 All-stars.

Look, if both teams met in a series all healthy, I would probably go with Miami just because we are talking about peak LeBron with the best cast he ever had going up against a team who's best player hasn't proven he can take over with his scoring in crucial games, but if we are looking at both teams from top to bottom, you cannot tell me with a straight face that Miami is more stacked.

I understand that you are one of the most stubborn users on this forum, but facts are facts. In no world are Bosh, old Allen, Chalmers, & Battier better players than Porzingis, Holiday, White, & old Horford.

[Axe]

And the 2015 Hawks had 4 All-stars.

Look, if both teams met in a series all healthy, I would probably go with Miami just because we are talking about peak LeBron with the best cast he ever had going up against a team who's best player hasn't proven he can take over with his scoring in crucial games, but if we are looking at both teams from top to bottom, you cannot tell me with a straight face that Miami is more stacked.

I understand that you are one of the most stubborn users on this forum, but facts are facts. In no world are Bosh, old Allen, Chalmers, & Battier better players than Porzingis, Holiday, White, & old Horford.
Too bad ImKobe wouldn't comprehend any of this tho, will just continue to think that kong played in a 'relatively weak east' and took advantage of it.

[Real Men Wear Green]

And the 2015 Hawks had 4 All-stars.

Look, if both teams met in a series all healthy, I would probably go with Miami just because we are talking about peak LeBron with the best cast he ever had going up against a team who's best player hasn't proven he can take over with his scoring in crucial games, but if we are looking at both teams from top to bottom, you cannot tell me with a straight face that Miami is more stacked.

I understand that you are one of the most stubborn users on this forum, but facts are facts. In no world are Bosh, old Allen, Chalmers, & Battier better players than Porzingis, Holiday, White, & old Horford. Flattered that I stand out to you but to me you are just one of a million James stans, likely just another alt. The Hawks had no one on par with James and Wade, everyone knows this. The Celtics, again, have two Allstars and only one AllNBA. That's not just my opinion, that's a factual statement. Never before had a team with only one AllNBA player and no one in the top 5 for mvp voting been labeled as stacked. That's far from the standard.

[1987_Lakers]

Flattered that I stand out to you but to me you are just one of a million James stans, likely just another alt. The Hawks had no one on par with James and Wade, everyone knows this. The Celtics, again, have two Allstars and only one AllNBA. That's not just my opinion, that's a factual statement. Never before had a team with only one AllNBA player and no one in the top 5 for mvp voting been labeled as stacked. That's far from the standard.

'89 Pistons.

Hell, they didn't have anyone in the top 15 in the MVP voting, had zero All-NBA players and were still voted as a top 10 team of all time by the NBA in 1996.

Incredibly stacked team that had 3 Hall of famers, guys like Rodman, Vinnie Johnson, & Edwards off the bench.

They were not top heavy, but the depth was all-time great.

This team went toe to toe with Magic & Bird at their peaks and was beating prime MJ year in and year out.

But lets not call them stacked. :oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

You could argue this Celtics team might end up with 3 Hall of famers, Tatum, Brown, & Holiday. While also having borderline all-stars in Porzingis & White as role players. (White got a lot of all-star buzz this year)

That is the definition of stacked.

You are one delusional mf'er. :oldlol:

[Real Men Wear Green]

'89 Pistons.

Hell, they didn't have anyone in the top 15 in the MVP voting, had zero All-NBA players and were still voted as a top 10 team of all time by the NBA in 1996.

Incredibly stacked team that had 3 Hall of famers, guys like Rodman, Vinnie Johnson, & Edwards off the bench.

They were not top heavy, but the depth was all-time great.

This team went toe to toe with Magic & Bird at their peaks and was beating prime MJ year in and year out.

But lets not call them stacked. :oldlol: If only great meant the same thing as "stacked. " It doesn't.
You could argue this Celtics team might end up with 3 Hall of famers, Tatum, Brown, & Holiday. While also having borderline all-stars in Porzingis & White as role players. (White got a lot of all-star buzz this year)

That is the definition of stacked.


You are one delusional mf'er. So let's apply the HoF=stacked logic to the Heat: James, Wade, Allen, Bosh. That would be 4 Hall of famers vs. The Celtics who as of now have one guy who were sure will be in the Hall, another guy that's likely if he can keep up his current level for a while, and a third guy that could make it but we aren't sure. In spades that would be 2 and a possible. And no one that would be put on the list of 75 greatest players of all time. You didn't think that one through.

[warriorfan]

1987 lakers vs real faggets wear green

battle of the low iqs

[1987_Lakers]

If only great meant the same thing as "stacked. " It doesn't.

They had Rodman & one of the best sixth men of the entire 80's (Vinnie) coming off the bench, not to mention Edwards as an 8th man who would have started on some bad teams, along with 2 hall of famers in the starting lineup AND Laimbeer & Aguirre. I would consider that stacked. Nice try.


So let's apply the HoF=stacked logic to the Heat: James, Wade, Allen, Bosh. That would be 4 Hall of famers vs. The Celtics who as of now have one guy who were sure will be in the Hall, another guy that's likely if he can keep up his current level for a while, and a third guy that could make it but we aren't sure. In spades that would be 2 and a possible. And no one that would be put on the list of 75 greatest players of all time. You didn't think that one through.

Ray Allen was 37, what is this trolling shit?

Tatum is a Hall of Fame lock. Brown is getting in if he keeps up this play, especially if he wins FMVP which it looks like he is on his way to. Holiday will also be a lock with his 2 chips and Olympic Gold Medal. You think those guys won't make it after we just saw Michael Cooper make it? Holiday is arguably the best defensive guard of his era who did much more on the court than Cooper did.

You didn't think this through. You are better than this.

[iamgine]

2012 Heat if today would be something like:

Jokic
Siakam
Sam Hauser
SGA
Tyus Jones

[1987_Lakers]

1987 lakers vs real faggets wear green

battle of the low iqs

real men wear green actually seems pretty smart, but not when it comes to discussing ball. He tries so hard to come off as he knows his stuff, but falls flat so many times.

[RRR3]

Al Horford will make the HOF too btw so Celtics likely eventually have 3-4 HOFers from this team. Porzingis may have if he could have stayed healthy but that’s not happening obviously.

[Real Men Wear Green]

They had Rodman & one of the best sixth men of the entire 80's (Vinnie) coming off the bench, not to mention Edwards as an 8th man who would have started on some bad teams, along with 2 hall of famers in the starting lineup AND Laimbeer & Aguirre. I would consider that stacked. Nice try. Not a single one of whom averaged 20 points. You have some kind of emotional damage where it hurts your feelings that the Heat get called stacked. Too bad, they were.




Ray Allen was 37, what is this trolling shit?Ray Allen hit one of the two biggest shots of Lebron James's career. And was still a double-digit scorer of the bench. You would know trolling though.

Tatum is a Hall of Fame lock. Brown is getting in if he keeps up this play, especially if he wins FMVP which it looks like he is on his way to. Holiday will also be a lock with his 2 chips and Olympic Gold Medal. You think those guys won't make it after we just saw Michael Cooper make it? Holiday is arguably the best defensive guard of his era who did much more on the court than Cooper did.

You didn't think this through. You are better than this. Which still leaves us at 2 and a possible. Was there a point here?

[rmt]

The Heat had THREE franchise players in their primes - one of whom many of you claim is the GOAT. Not 3, not 4, ... brought to you from a front seat up close in Miami.

[GimmeThat]

The Heat had THREE franchise players in their primes - one of whom many of you claim is the GOAT. Not 3, not 4, ... brought to you from a front seat up close in Miami.

name me a team with less ring chasers than the 2011-2014 Heat from the 2000-2010 era

[HoopsNY]

What brings the Celtics down is that they don't have that bonified superstar who is a top 3 player, but if you look at the roster from top to bottom, they are pretty stacked. Almost unfair to have Porzingis, Holiday, & White as your #3-#5 guys.

LeBron's miami teams #4 and #5 options were a 37 year old Ray Allen & Mario Chalmers, both clearly below Boston's supporting casts in terms of talent.

Saying Allen's age doesn't mean anything when Allen was such a crucial player to the Heat in 2013 and 2014. RMWG already highlighted his clutch three to save Miami in the finals against the Spurs, but let's not forget that Ray in the playoffs with Miami put up 10 PPG in just 25 minutes of action in the playoffs during those years on 59% TS%.

In the finals, he was even better, posting a 64% TS%. I also think having guys like Battier and Birdman helped Miami. They certainly were stacked. Saying the Celtics are stacked doesn't change that.

I also think we'd have to adjust the numbers. In those days, the Heat averaged anywhere from 16 to 22 threes a game. What's guys like Wade, LeBron, Bosh, Chalmers, or Allen's numbers looking like with more spacing and three point spamming at 35-40 attempts per game?

[Axe]

Saying Allen's age doesn't mean anything when Allen was such a crucial player to the Heat in 2013 and 2014. RMWG already highlighted his clutch three to save Miami in the finals against the Spurs, but let's not forget that Ray in the playoffs with Miami put up 10 PPG in just 25 minutes of action in the playoffs during those years on 59% TS%.

In the finals, he was even better, posting a 64% TS%. I also think having guys like Battier and Birdman helped Miami. They certainly were stacked. Saying the Celtics are stacked doesn't change that.

I also think we'd have to adjust the numbers. In those days, the Heat averaged anywhere from 16 to 22 threes a game. What's guys like Wade, LeBron, Bosh, Chalmers, or Allen's numbers looking like with more spacing and three point spamming at 35-40 attempts per game?
Long story short, many believed that heat team from that era could have done better due to the hype they had bt. They didn't feel as cohesive as the dub dynasty that started in 2015 and therefore, some people probably couldn't help but feel that they 'underachieved.'

[GimmeThat]

Long story short, many believed that heat team from that era could have done better due to the hype they had bt. They didn't feel as cohesive as the dub dynasty that started in 2015 and therefore, some people probably couldn't help but feel that they 'underachieved.'

you can't win championships and not be cohesive or underachieve, people probably have difficulty in comprehending how players of the same age group (draft class) ended up having different ambition in professional sports.

[Manny98]

Prime Joel Anthony wouldn't even make a 12 man roster in today's NBA, neither would Chalmers

[HoopsNY]

Long story short, many believed that heat team from that era could have done better due to the hype they had bt. They didn't feel as cohesive as the dub dynasty that started in 2015 and therefore, some people probably couldn't help but feel that they 'underachieved.'

Yea, I agree with this.

[tpols]

Prime Joel Anthony wouldn't even make a 12 man roster in today's NBA, neither would Chalmers

Chalmers definitely would've. He was a decent role player. Way more talented than like Derek Fisher or something.


https://youtu.be/cfEilVwiv_A?si=kwbdWoqdsdUYOg1_

Joel would be a bench scrub but when you sign 2 MVP talents and an All NBA talent all on max deals there's not gonna be much money left over.

They still ended up getting Birdman, Battier, and Ray who all played absolutely amazing for them in the playoffs.

This thread is one of the worst revisionist histories of all time.

[1987_Lakers]

Not a single one of whom averaged 20 points. You have some kind of emotional damage where it hurts your feelings that the Heat get called stacked. Too bad, they were.



Ray Allen hit one of the two biggest shots of Lebron James's career. And was still a double-digit scorer of the bench. You would know trolling though.
Which still leaves us at 2 and a possible. Was there a point here?

Not a single of them averaged 20 ppg, but you went ahead and mentioned a 37 year old Ray Allen who averaged like 11 PPG. :oldlol:

He was obviously a key contributor, but the way you went and said Miami had 4 hall of famers like Ray Allen was in his prime is pretty shameless.

And no, it leaves us at 3.

[John8204]

One of the many reasons I crap on Shaq as an all-timer is you look at his Miami team and you look at Bron's Miami and it's embarrassing to see how much talent was on that roster.

Shaq won a single tainted ring with three vet MVP level guys (Payton, and Mourning) along with a young core of Walker, Williams, Wade, and Haslem.

Everyone acts like Bosh was an all-time great...he was good and valuable but he doesn't make an All-Star team if he's playing in the West.

If I sat down and really went into every season Lebron's Miami team...might be a top 30 team of all-time

[Real Men Wear Green]

Not a single of them averaged 20 ppg, but you went ahead and mentioned a 37 year old Ray Allen who averaged like 11 PPG. :oldlol:

He was obviously a key contributor, but the way you went and said Miami had 4 hall of famers like Ray Allen was in his prime is pretty shameless.

And no, it leaves us at 3.
Did you look up that 1989 Piston team? When I say none of them averaged 20 I am talking about the whole team. Of course you didn't know that, you likely weren't even alive in 1989. You just desperately sought out some kind of argument. Sorry but you don't have one.

Jrue Holiday has made the allstar game twice and has one ring. I hope he soon has two but currently Bballreference says his career is similar career to Nick Van Exel and Lou Williams. That's not a HoF lock.

[tpols]

Did you look up that 1989 Piston team? When I say none of them averaged 20 I am talking about the whole team. Of course you didn't know that, you likely weren't even alive in 1989. You just desperately sought out some kind of argument. Sorry but you don't have one.

Jrue Holiday has made the allstar game twice and has one ring. I hope he soon has two but currently Bballreference says his career is similar career to Nick Van Exel and Lou Williams. That's not a HoF lock.


And that's where perception deviates from reality. Jrue has a way higher impact on the game because he's 100x the defender lou will or nick van exel were. Jrue has outplayed Tatum in the Finals so far.

You're acting a straight fool downplaying his impact. But that's not surprising.

[1987_Lakers]

Did you look up that 1989 Piston team? When I say none of them averaged 20 I am talking about the whole team. Of course you didn't know that, you likely weren't even alive in 1989. You just desperately sought out some kind of argument. Sorry but you don't have one.

Jrue Holiday has made the allstar game twice and has one ring. I hope he soon has two but currently Bballreference says his career is similar career to Nick Van Exel and Lou Williams. That's not a HoF lock.

Yea, no shit. Did you not read my post when I specifically mentioned they were not "top heavy", but depth was off the charts.

Isiah & Aguirre could have easily averaged 20 if they played on a bad team. Mark Aguirre was literally averaging 22 PPG on the Mavs in 1989 before he got traded to Detroit mid-season.

I'm a historian to this game, watched a shit ton of 80's games, look at my username.

[1987_Lakers]

RMWG now putting Holiday on the same tier as Nick Van Exel & Lou Williams.

Disgraceful. :oldlol:

[StrongLurk]

One of my other main points in the OP is that Lebron being so good is really what made the Heat seem so stacked.

They had top heavy talent in 2011 and 2012, but also had series weaknesses (These modern Celtics have none on off/def AND they have the advantage of being fully analytics driven which is a better format/style of play than what teams did 15 years ago).

2013 Heat were the most complete version, 2014 was for sure on their last legs.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Yea, no shit. Did you not read my post when I specifically mentioned they were not "top heavy", but depth was off the charts.

Isiah & Aguirre could have easily averaged 20 if they played on a bad team. Mark Aguirre was literally averaging 22 PPG on the Mavs in 1989 before he got traded to Detroit mid-season.

I'm a historian to this game, watched a shit ton of 80's games, look at my username.
If you really knew NBA history you wouldn't be calling a team without a single 20ppg scorer stacked. Moving on.

[gengiskhan]

HEAT was a SUPER team.
CAVS was a SUPER team.
BROOKLYN was a SUPER team.

Magics LAL were STACKED team.
Birds CELTICS were STACKED team.

SUPER teams have COLLUDED and atleast 3 "FRANCHISE" players (LeBron, Bosh, Wade; Lebron, Kyrie, Love)

Magics LAL = Magic + Worthy only; old Kareem NOT franchise anymore. a contender cannot be built around Old Kareem)
Bird's Celtics = Bird + McHale; Chief was not talented enough to be a franchise and contender cannot be built around him)

[1987_Lakers]

If you really knew NBA history you wouldn't be calling a team without a single 20ppg scorer stacked. Moving on.

So I'm guessing some of those 60's Celtics teams that had like 7 hall of famers, but no 20 PPG players like their '63 & '64 teams were not stacked.

Moving on.

[HoopsNY]

If you really knew NBA history you wouldn't be calling a team without a single 20ppg scorer stacked. Moving on.

Respectfully, I must disagree. Those Pistons teams were absolutely stacked. Because they didn't have a 20 PPG scorer wasn't indicative of their offense, especially when in '88 and '89, they were 6th and 7th in ORTG.

As 1987 mentioned, guys like Aguirre could score, but obviously his role and the style of play changed given that he wasn't on Dallas anymore.

Having said that, I do agree with you that Miami was stacked. To look at just Wade/Bosh/LeBron as being the only "stacked" players would be incorrect, especially when 1987 is minimizing Ray Allen's role (let alone Battier, Chalmers, or Birdman).

[Real Men Wear Green]

And that's where perception deviates from reality. Jrue has a way higher impact on the game because he's 100x the defender lou will or nick van exel were. Jrue has outplayed Tatum in the Finals so far.

You're acting a straight fool downplaying his impact. But that's not surprising.
I am quoting his basketball reference score, and the players that site said his score was similar to. 2-time All-Star is not a lock for the Hall. Are you ever going to write something intelligent? You just don't seem to be an adult man.

[1987_Lakers]

Respectfully, I must disagree. Those Pistons teams were absolutely stacked. Because they didn't have a 20 PPG scorer wasn't indicative of their offense, especially when in '88 and '89, they were 6th and 7th in ORTG.

As 1987 mentioned, guys like Aguirre could score, but obviously his role and the style of play changed given that he wasn't on Dallas anymore.

Having said that, I do agree with you that Miami was stacked. To look at just Wade/Bosh/LeBron as being the only "stacked" players would be incorrect, especially when 1987 is minimizing Ray Allen's role (let alone Battier, Chalmers, or Birdman).

Obviously Miami was stacked, the 2013 Heat team was the best team LeBron has ever played on, my only argument here is that this Boston team has more talent.

[Real Men Wear Green]

So I'm guessing some of those 60's Celtics teams that had like 7 hall of famers, but no 20 PPG players like their '63 & '64 teams were not stacked.

Moving on.
If you win 6+ championships you have a good shot at the hall regardless of statistics.

[1987_Lakers]

If you win 6+ championships you have a good shot at the hall regardless of statistics.

So those 60's Celtics teams were not stacked, is that what you are telling me?

[Real Men Wear Green]

Respectfully, I must disagree. Those Pistons teams were absolutely stacked. Because they didn't have a 20 PPG scorer wasn't indicative of their offense, especially when in '88 and '89, they were 6th and 7th in ORTG.

As 1987 mentioned, guys like Aguirre could score, but obviously his role and the style of play changed given that he wasn't on Dallas anymore.

Having said that, I do agree with you that Miami was stacked. To look at just Wade/Bosh/LeBron as being the only "stacked" players would be incorrect, especially when 1987 is minimizing Ray Allen's role (let alone Battier, Chalmers, or Birdman).
That Piston team was one of the 10 most talented of all time? Because that's what 1987 said.

[Real Men Wear Green]

So those 60's Celtics teams were not stacked, is that what you are telling me?They were but some of the guys from those Celtic teams that made the Hall would not have made it if they didn't win all of those championships.

[1987_Lakers]

That Piston team was one of the 10 most talented of all time? Because that's what 1987 said.

I said they were chosen as a top 10 team in history by the NBA during its 50th anniversary.
https://www.nba.com/history/nba-at-50/top-10-teams

[1987_Lakers]

They were but some of the guys from those Celtic teams that made the Hall would not have made it if they didn't win all of those championships.

Well, thanks for clearing that up, despite it contradicting what you just said a few minutes ago.


If you really knew NBA history you wouldn't be calling a team without a single 20ppg scorer stacked. Moving on.

:oldlol:

[Real Men Wear Green]

I said they were chosen as a top 10 team in history by the NBA during its 50th anniversary.
https://www.nba.com/history/nba-at-50/top-10-teams
So are you saying that that was not an all-time stacked team? Because if so why would you bring them up?

[1987_Lakers]

So are you saying that that was not an all-time stacked team? Because if so why would you bring them up?

I called them stacked, but never said they were "top 10 stacked team of all time". There is a difference.

But you could probably make an argument that they are top 10 in terms of stacked. I would for sure put them on the list of we are talking depth, where the Pistons fall short is that they don't have that bonifed superstar.

[warriorfan]

I am quoting his basketball reference score, and the players that site said his score was similar to. 2-time All-Star is not a lock for the Hall. Are you ever going to write something intelligent? You just don't seem to be an adult man.

What sort of shitty and lazy analysis is this? lmao

This is embarrassing

[HoopsNY]

Obviously Miami was stacked, the 2013 Heat team was the best team LeBron has ever played on, my only argument here is that this Boston team has more talent.

This is where the eras come into play. Boston's depth looks a lot fancier on paper because of the scoring and spacing that this era provides. The league was very different in 2011 or 2012. Guaranteed Ray Allen, even at 37 years old, in today's game would be a serious weapon. He put up 10 PPG on 64% TS% in the 2 finals appearances against an elite defense.

What's he doing against Dallas in 2024? Or against any of the teams Boston faced in the first three rounds?

[RRR3]

This is where the eras come into play. Boston's depth looks a lot fancier on paper because of the scoring and spacing that this era provides. The league was very different in 2011 or 2012. Guaranteed Ray Allen, even at 37 years old, in today's game would be a serious weapon. He put up 10 PPG on 64% TS% in the 2 finals appearances against an elite defense.

What's he doing against Dallas in 2024? Or against any of the teams Boston faced in the first three rounds?
His shooting would actually be less notable in today’s league. Not saying he’d be worse just that elite shooting is way more common now.

[1987_Lakers]

This is where the eras come into play. Boston's depth looks a lot fancier on paper because of the scoring and spacing that this era provides. The league was very different in 2011 or 2012. Guaranteed Ray Allen, even at 37 years old, in today's game would be a serious weapon. He put up 10 PPG on 64% TS% in the 2 finals appearances against an elite defense.

What's he doing against Dallas in 2024? Or against any of the teams Boston faced in the first three rounds?

https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExeGtteXBveHZjenZ1ejV2bmtpYnE0Zm9 zNzFnaTJvOGE5MmxweGEyayZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/UVAasrbF1ly0nx0xQi/giphy.webp

[Real Men Wear Green]

Well, thanks for clearing that up, despite it contradicting what you just said a few minutes ago.



:oldlol:
If you really knew basketball history you would know that various Celtics averaged 20+ throughout various years in the 60s and the standards were different in general. A guy could shoot in the low 40%s, average in bthe teens, and be considered a good scorer. That was a different era.

[HoopsNY]

https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExeGtteXBveHZjenZ1ejV2bmtpYnE0Zm9 zNzFnaTJvOGE5MmxweGEyayZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/UVAasrbF1ly0nx0xQi/giphy.webp

Yea, focus on the 10 PPG while ignoring the 64% TS% (including 48% from 3).

[1987_Lakers]

If you really knew basketball history you would know that various Celtics averaged 20+ throughout various years .

So did the ‘89 Pistons. Seriously, you are making a complete fool of yourself here and everyone sees it.

[FKAri]

2011 was top heavy and not stacked. But after that they definitely were

[Real Men Wear Green]

So did the ‘89 Pistons. Seriously, you are making a complete fool of yourself here and everyone sees it.
So you are saying that they are all-time stacked now? Made up your mind?

[1987_Lakers]

So you are saying that they are all-time stacked now? Made up your mind?
I already stated my position.

[NBAGOAT]

Yea, focus on the 10 PPG while ignoring the 64% TS% (including 48% from 3).

ray allen isnt playing much due to his defense. he at that stage in his career isnt on the same tier as jrue white etc. Someone like current kcp is likely better due to defense even accounting for era I think.

[Dbrog]

2012 Heat if today would be something like:

Jokic
Siakam
Sam Hauser
SGA
Tyus Jones

It's actually much better than this as Siakam was never 4th in the NBA in PER so maybe something like (also building it like the heat instead of strictly PER):

Derrick Jones Jr (Battier/Haslem)
Brow or Bron (Bosh)
Giannis (2012 Bron)
Shai (Wade)
Jrue Holiday or maybe Pat Bev (Chalmers)

That's pretty fcking stacked if you ask me.

[SouBeachTalents]

It's actually much better than this as Siakam was never 4th in the NBA in PER so maybe something like (also building it like the heat instead of strictly PER):

Derrick Jones Jr (Battier/Haslem)
Brow or Bron (Bosh)
Giannis (2012 Bron)
Shai (Wade)
Jrue Holiday or maybe Pat Bev (Chalmers)

That's pretty fcking stacked if you ask me.
As terrible as the Bosh one is, claiming Chalmers is the equivalent of Jrue is indefensibly bad.

[RRR3]

It's actually much better than this as Siakam was never 4th in the NBA in PER so maybe something like (also building it like the heat instead of strictly PER):

Derrick Jones Jr (Battier/Haslem)
Brow or Bron (Bosh)
Giannis (2012 Bron)
Shai (Wade)
Jrue Holiday or maybe Pat Bev (Chalmers)

That's pretty fcking stacked if you ask me.
Hassan Whiteside was 7th in PER in 2016 lol. He had Wade and Bosh as teammates too. Using that stat in 2024 is crazy.

[RRR3]

As ridiculous as the Bosh one is, claiming Chalmers is the equivalent of Jrue is indefensibly bad.
Even funnier is he apparently thinks Jrue and Pat Bev are similar players despite them being easily comparable due to both being in the league rn. Also despite how "stacked" that team is they wouldn't win shit in 2024. LeBron is arguably the best 3PT shooter on that team, completely ass spacing. They'd go 82-0 in 1995 though.

[NBAGOAT]

It's actually much better than this as Siakam was never 4th in the NBA in PER so maybe something like (also building it like the heat instead of strictly PER):

Derrick Jones Jr (Battier/Haslem)
Brow or Bron (Bosh)
Giannis (2012 Bron)
Shai (Wade)
Jrue Holiday or maybe Pat Bev (Chalmers)

That's pretty fcking stacked if you ask me.

i have epm for those years. Bosh was like a +3 in 2010 94th percentile. Thats good but more like current lauri markkanen or chet holmgren instead of AD. Tpols was right about chalmers but he isnt jrue holiday, maybe more deanthony melton. if you're looking at 12 team then wade isnt on shai's lvl. more like mitchell/ant.

Chet
Giannis
Lu Dort
mitchell
Deanthony melton

Yea likely winning a title the 12/13 heat are all time teams for a reason.

[RRR3]

i have epm for those years. Bosh was like a +3 in 2010 94th percentile. Thats good but more like current lauri markkanen or chet holmgren instead of AD. Tpols was right about chalmers but he isnt jrue holiday, maybe more deanthony melton. if you're looking at 12 team then wade isnt on shai's lvl. more like mitchell/ant.

Chet
Giannis
Lu Dort
mitchell
Deanthony melton

Yea likely winning a title the 12/13 heat are all time teams for a reason.
Man that is pretty perfect for 12/13 Heat, nicely done. Now I want to see that team :lol


Still mad Chalmers tore his achilles and was trash after that :( Such a good role player before that, he would have lasted a while.

[NBAGOAT]

Man that is pretty perfect for 12/13 Heat, nicely done. Now I want to see that team :lol


Still mad Chalmers tore his achilles and was trash after that :( Such a good role player before that, he would have lasted a while.

i see them winning a title if you replace giannis with prime bron(there's a gap there). Boston is so good they stack up with the version with giannis however. This team is more talented than boston but has more holes.

[Dbrog]

Hassan Whiteside was 7th in PER in 2016 lol. He had Wade and Bosh as teammates too. Using that stat in 2024 is crazy.

I don't typically even like PER but I see it constantly posted on here. My post is in line with that. Siakam is a far stranger comparison to Bosh as he was never leading the Raptors anywhere or leading the league in double doubles, etc etc. Your Jokic to Bron comparison is very confusing too as they are nothing like each other.

Side note: obviously oldman Jrue is still better than Bev but Chalmers was pretty similar back then as he was a good defender who could occasionally get hot on offense. I don't really see the stretch here

[Dbrog]

i have epm for those years. Bosh was like a +3 in 2010 94th percentile. Thats good but more like current lauri markkanen or chet holmgren instead of AD. Tpols was right about chalmers but he isnt jrue holiday, maybe more deanthony melton. if you're looking at 12 team then wade isnt on shai's lvl. more like mitchell/ant.

Chet
Giannis
Lu Dort
mitchell
Deanthony melton

Yea likely winning a title the 12/13 heat are all time teams for a reason.

Yup that's a solid comparison, though I would lean more towards Ant than Mitchell as Mitchell is truly awful on defense

[NBAGOAT]

Yup that's a solid comparison, though I would lean more towards Ant than Mitchell as Mitchell is truly awful on defense

sure but I kinda balanced out there since chet is better defender than bosh. Also think mitchell is still a little better than ant overall and rather be generous with the comparisons there. Tbf no holes on defense if you put in ant but I think giannis needs the extra help on offense. 2012 lebron wouldnt

[RRR3]

I don't typically even like PER but I see it constantly posted on here. My post is in line with that. Siakam is a far stranger comparison to Bosh as he was never leading the Raptors anywhere or leading the league in double doubles, etc etc. Your Jokic to Bron comparison is very confusing too as they are nothing like each other.

Side note: obviously oldman Jrue is still better than Bev but Chalmers was pretty similar back then as he was a good defender who could occasionally get hot on offense. I don't really see the stretch here
Siakam led the Raptors farther than Bosh ever did as first option dawg.

[red1]

those heat teams were never as stacked as we made them out to be

the way they struggled in the regular season is the obvious proof of that


they had huge, easily exploitable holes. they never had real interior defense or any real bigs during those 4 years. hibbert looked like prime shaq against them. every real big man and skilled pointguard would feast on them.

[red1]

lebrons cavs were better because they were balanced


heat couldve swapped out bosh for a tristan thompson and mozgov duo and would have improved

[1987_Lakers]

Just won on the road with no Porzingis, not stacked though.

:oldlol:

[gengiskhan]

Just won on the road with no Porzingis, not stacked though.

:oldlol:

that because Luka sucked a huge ***** today. thats why.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Just won on the road with no Porzingis, not stacked though.

:oldlol:
Is every nba champion stacked? You continue to be stupid. They've been beating Dallas all season. Remind me who the second AllNBA player is again? Who is the MVP candidate?

[1987_Lakers]

Is every nba champion stacked? You continue to be stupid. They've been beating Dallas all season. Remind me who the second AllNBA player is again? Who is the MVP candidate?

The guy who is about to win FMVP.

[Im Still Ballin]

those heat teams were never as stacked as we made them out to be

the way they struggled in the regular season is the obvious proof of that


they had huge, easily exploitable holes. they never had real interior defense or any real bigs during those 4 years. hibbert looked like prime shaq against them. every real big man and skilled pointguard would feast on them.

Facts. That 2013 team is one of only four championship teams in NBA history to be outrebounded on average. And of those four, they were by far the worst of the bunch, literally dead last in rebounding. 30th out of 30 teams.

The fact that their season changed once they acquired Chris Andersen is proof of how huge an issue their lack of bigs was. He was enough of a stopgap to plug the hole somewhat.

IMO, that 2013 Miami team is the most "small ball" championship team ever. Just doesn't seem like it because Bosh is 6'11" even though he's got a long-ass neck and is a power forward that plays more like a small forward than a center.

[Axe]

those heat teams were never as stacked as we made them out to be

the way they struggled in the regular season is the obvious proof of that


they had huge, easily exploitable holes. they never had real interior defense or any real bigs during those 4 years. hibbert looked like prime shaq against them. every real big man and skilled pointguard would feast on them.
Kong having to be familiar with too many teammates may be a factor about them not winning on a consistent basis. That's why a lot of shuffling or overhauling bt were involved and one that is recurring in his career until now.

[HoopsNY]

ray allen isnt playing much due to his defense. he at that stage in his career isnt on the same tier as jrue white etc. Someone like current kcp is likely better due to defense even accounting for era I think.

Fair point, but it doesn't take away from the fact that someone like Allen added depth to their roster. The 2013 Heat, for example, won 66 games. They did so because they were stacked. When we look at the roster, the trio to Wade/LeBron/Bosh > JT/JB/KP. Sure, Jrue/White/Horford is probably a better trio than Chalmers/Allen/Battier, but I still believe they look a lot better due to the inflated numbers.

If we account for the rosters in full, then I still think Miami has the edge, though it's probably splitting hairs.

Boston's playoff run is looking a lot better than it actually is given the amount of injuries that occurred in the Eastern Conference. And I don't believe the Mavs are a tougher opponent than the Spurs were in 2013.

[NBAGOAT]

Fair point, but it doesn't take away from the fact that someone like Allen added depth to their roster. The 2013 Heat, for example, won 66 games. They did so because they were stacked. When we look at the roster, the trio to Wade/LeBron/Bosh > JT/JB/KP. Sure, Jrue/White/Horford is probably a better trio than Chalmers/Allen/Battier, but I still believe they look a lot better due to the inflated numbers.

If we account for the rosters in full, then I still think Miami has the edge, though it's probably splitting hairs.

Boston's playoff run is looking a lot better than it actually is given the amount of injuries that occurred in the Eastern Conference. And I don't believe the Mavs are a tougher opponent than the Spurs were in 2013.

Sure about Mavs, they’re not the spurs. Do keep in mind even without the injuries Celtics are winning and also they didn’t have porzingis.

Jrue/white/horford don’t have eye popping numbers so I disagree there. They’re guys who are just significantly better on both sides of the ball. White and holiday are top 50 players easily, all-nba defenders who are 3rd options on other title teams very likely. none of the Miami trio were that in 2013. Sure Miami might be more stacked because of their top end guys but with wades injuries and bosh being around all star lvl basically difference comes all from peak lebron vs Tatum lol. The comparison without top guy isn’t really close even accounting for era.

[HoopsNY]

Sure about Mavs, they’re not the spurs. Do keep in mind even without the injuries Celtics are winning and also they didn’t have porzingis.

Jrue/white/horford don’t have eye popping numbers so I disagree there. They’re guys who are just significantly better on both sides of the ball. White and holiday are top 50 players easily, all-nba defenders who are 3rd options on other title teams very likely. none of the Miami trio were that in 2013. Sure Miami might be more stacked because of their top end guys but with wades injuries and bosh being around all star lvl basically difference comes all from peak lebron vs Tatum lol. The comparison without top guy isn’t really close even accounting for era.

I think I worded that badly. Let me rephrase. When I say "inflated", I don't mean their numbers are spectacular. I mean the numbers look better than they would be in other eras.

Jrue's career high in 3pt% came this year - at age 33 - in what is now his 15th season in the league.

Horford has been in the league since 2008. He's in his 17th season. His career high came last season at age 36. And he did so at a near 45% clip. Allen had just one season where he shot the three better than that.

Here's the thing. I don't care what Horford shoots. He's not a better 3 point shooter than Allen was, at any point of their careers. I just think Hoford benefits massively from modern spacing since shooters live on the perimeter.

His game evolved with the style and system, but I think the same would have happened with Allen had his later years come in 2024.

I do agree that Jrue and White are both better than Chalmers, Allen, and Battier though.

[RRR3]

Horford’s main value isn’t from shooting. He’s significantly more impactful than old Ray Allen. I think old Ray gets overrated to hell because of his clutch shot, Chalmers, Birdman and Battier were more important to those Heat teams.

[rmt]

name me a team with less ring chasers than the 2011-2014 Heat from the 2000-2010 era

Huh? Every team. We're not talking old, veterans at the end of the bench. We're talking starting 5.

[RRR3]

Huh? Every team. We're not talking old, veterans at the end of the bench. We're talking starting 5.
How the hell was Chalmers a ring chaser? The Heat drafted him. Same for Joel Anthony he was signed out of college. Shut up grandma.

[rmt]

How the hell was Chalmers a ring chaser? The Heat drafted him. Same for Joel Anthony he was signed out of college. Shut up grandma.

When 3 (Lebron, Bosh, Ray) of the team's most important players (and I'll give you Wade as he was drafted by the Heat) are franchise players turned ring chasers, it brings the word "collusion" to a whole 'nother level. The only other team even approaching that (during 2000-10) is KG and Ray (and they had seen their better days in the past - not two 26 year olds and a 29 year old) joining Pierce.

[RRR3]

Calling Bosh and ESPECIlALLY 38 year old Ray Allen a franchise player is how I know you’re senile.

[tpols]

Chris Bosh absolutely was a franchise player... he was by a huge margin the best player on the Raptors in the mid 2000s. Multiple time All Star, All NBA, Olympic team... everything.

[RRR3]

Chris Bosh absolutely was a franchise player... he was by a huge margin the best player on the Raptors in the mid 2000s. Multiple time All Star, All NBA, Olympic team... everything.
Pascal Siakam led the Raptors farther than Bosh ever did is he a franchise player?

[tpols]

Siakam did that once in the bubble beating the Nets with Caris Levert and Joe Harris as their leading scorers. And actually Fred Van Vleet was the leading scorer in that series.

Isn't saying much...

Siakam is actually nice but Bosh was a bit more talented. He had like the 3rd best PER in the entire NBA in 2010. Nobody not great has ever done that.

[RRR3]

Siakam did that once in the bubble beating the Nets with Caris Levert and Joe Harris as their leading scorers. And actually Fred Van Vleet was the leading scorer in that series.

Isn't saying much...

Siakam is actually nice but Bosh was a bit more talented. He had like the 3rd best PER in the entire NBA in 2010. Nobody not great has ever done that.
Hassan Whiteside has two seasons with a better PER than Bosh ever put up and another tying his best. Was he great? :roll:


And maybe Bosh would have got easier first round opponents if he led his team to as many wins as Siakam did :confusedshrug:

[tpols]

Boshs raptors were not even in the same stratosphere as Siakams in terms of help.

Like I showed before, FVV was the leading scorer in Siakams only playoff win which you were using as some type of end all be all proof. Not only that but Ibaka averaged 19/10 on 63% shooting to Siakams 20/8 on 41%.

You just shot yourself totally in the foot. Bosh was much better than Whiteside and a tad bit better than Siakam. That's just what it is.

[RRR3]

Boshs raptors were not even in the same stratosphere as Siakams in terms of help.

Like I showed before, FVV was the leading scorer in Siakams only playoff win which you were using as some type of end all be all proof. Not only that but Ibaka averaged 19/10 on 63% shooting to Siakams 20/8 on 41%.

You just shot yourself totally in the foot. Bosh was much better than Whiteside and a tad bit better than Siakam. That's just what it is.
Bosh wasn't better than Whiteside according to your own logic (PER) :confusedshrug:

Argue with your previous posts.

[warriorfan]

Boshs raptors were not even in the same stratosphere as Siakams in terms of help.

Like I showed before, FVV was the leading scorer in Siakams only playoff win which you were using as some type of end all be all proof. Not only that but Ibaka averaged 19/10 on 63% shooting to Siakams 20/8 on 41%.

You just shot yourself totally in the foot. Bosh was much better than Whiteside and a tad bit better than Siakam. That's just what it is.

These kids didn’t even watch nba during that time

Bosh was elite but had literally the worst team.

As the bron kids would say “he needed more help”. But in this case Bosh really did :lol

[rmt]

Calling Bosh and ESPECIlALLY 38 year old Ray Allen a franchise player is how I know you’re senile.

Wade, Bosh and Lebron were franchise players.

[RRR3]

Wade, Bosh and Lebron were franchise players.
Bosh is a franchise player in the same way Lauri Markkanen is. Meaningless distinction at that point.

[Hey Yo]

These kids didn’t even watch nba during that time

Bosh was elite but had literally the worst team.

As the bron kids would say “he needed more help”. But in this case Bosh really did :lol

Well, in the so-called pathetic East elite Bosh only made the playoffs 2x in 7yrs. His team was the 3 seed in 07 and couldn't even get our of the 1st round.

Very good player, but not close to being elite.

[RRR3]

Well, in the so-called pathetic East elite Bosh only made the playoffs 2x in 7yrs. His team was the 3 seed in 07 and couldn't even get our of the 1st round.

Very good player, but not close to being elite.
Averaged a deadly 17.5 PPG on 48.7 TS% while getting upset by the 41-41 Nets :lol ELITE!

[SouBeachTalents]

Bosh wasn't a franchise player, which is no knock on him, there are maybe 10 franchise players in the league at one time, and there's just no way you could look at Bosh's body of work in Toronto and reach the conclusion he was a legitimate franchise player.

Even if you gave him a better supporting cast than he had in Toronto, what would be your realistic expectation of a team with Bosh as it's best player? That's a 2nd round exit at best, maybe they sneak into a conference finals once if all hell breaks loose with injuries.

If you're a franchise player you should be able to lead any team to the playoffs on a regular basis, you should be All-NBA annually, you should top 10 in MVP voting annually, and there should be a realistic scenario where you could lead a contending team to a championship; Chris Bosh checks none of these boxes.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Bosh was not elite but he was probably the best player at third option for much of his time with Wade and James. His problem was that he was forced to play an exclusively complimentary role. Instead of getting a lot of post plays he was spacing the floor which was a waste of talent but James and Wade were the two best players in the league at attacking the basket so he had to get out of the paint. His numbers suffered as a result and bounced back once the stars left.

[rmt]

Bosh wasn't a franchise player, which is no knock on him, there are maybe 10 franchise players in the league at one time, and there's just no way you could look at Bosh's body of work in Toronto and reach the conclusion he was a legitimate franchise player.

Even if you gave him a better supporting cast than he had in Toronto, what would be your realistic expectation of a team with Bosh as it's best player? That's a 2nd round exit at best, maybe they sneak into a conference finals once if all hell breaks loose with injuries.

If you're a franchise player you should be able to lead any team to the playoffs on a regular basis, you should be All-NBA annually, you should top 10 in MVP voting annually, and there should be a realistic scenario where you could lead a contending team to a championship; Chris Bosh checks none of these boxes.

I think your standards for franchise player are REALLY high. By your definition, Wemby, AD, Ja, etc. aren't franchise players. And 20 teams don't have franchise players but 6 of them make the playoffs despite not having one. But to each his own.

[SouBeachTalents]

I think your standards for franchise player are REALLY high. By your definition, Wemby, AD, Ja, etc. aren't franchise players. And 20 teams don't have franchise players but 6 of them make the playoffs despite not having one. But to each his own.
I think standards for a franchise player SHOULD be very high, it should be reserved for the truly elite of the league. If we're applying it to a guy like Bosh who could barely muster a playoff appearance or even a winning record in a weak Eastern conference, the term loses all significance. What the hell is the point of calling someone a "franchise" player when the franchise is consistently in the lottery with them at the helm.

[GimmeThat]

friendly reminder: time to pay your rent on me saying Lebron could easily be a decent 3 point shooter in the NBA

[warriorfan]

I think your standards for franchise player are REALLY high. By your definition, Wemby, AD, Ja, etc. aren't franchise players. And 20 teams don't have franchise players but 6 of them make the playoffs despite not having one. But to each his own.

They are playing semantics to try to downplay Bosh. It’s pretty lame and transparent.

Once again I invite anyone who wants to hate on Bosh for not having team success in Toronto….take a look at his rosters if you didn’t follow NBA back then….it’s some of the worst of the worst. What did you want him to do exactly?

Trying to write off Bosh’s ability for the fact he had zero help in Toronto is flat out disingenuous.

[GimmeThat]

They are playing semantics to try to downplay Bosh. It’s pretty lame and transparent.

Once again I invite anyone who wants to hate on Bosh for not having team success in Toronto….take a look at his rosters if you didn’t follow NBA back then….it’s some of the worst of the worst. What did you want him to do exactly?

Trying to write off Bosh’s ability for the fact he had zero help in Toronto is flat out disingenuous.

the ideaology behind the Heat management became "if you don't outsweat your opponents to win, then you're just like the Harlem Globetrotters"

but again, the fundamental flaw behind it all is the lack of spacing and sharing the floor, which is where Birdman came in.

[gengiskhan]

They are playing semantics to try to downplay Bosh. It’s pretty lame and transparent.

Once again I invite anyone who wants to hate on Bosh for not having team success in Toronto….take a look at his rosters if you didn’t follow NBA back then….it’s some of the worst of the worst. What did you want him to do exactly?

Trying to write off Bosh’s ability for the fact he had zero help in Toronto is flat out disingenuous.

its not a question of STACKED!

Its really a question of SUPER!

Magic's LAL were STACKED. Bird's BOS were STACKED.

Chris Bosh was Raptors leader and Franchise and legit 24 ppg 11 rpg All Star before joining LBJ at age 26.

LBJ's Ball Dominance style reduced Bosh to 16 PPG 6 RPG do not mean Bosh is any less.

Its LBJs fault that he cannot make players better under him. because he is a playmaker, ball dominator.

Especially when Bosh was 26 YO, LBJ was 25 YO and Wade was 29 YO. all in their best year.

That 3rd Franchise All-Star leader in Bosh and Love make HEAT and CAVs both SUPER teams not STACKED teams.

[ShawkFactory]

its not a question of STACKED!

Its really a question of SUPER!

Magic's LAL were STACKED. Bird's BOS were STACKED.

Chris Bosh was Raptors leader and Franchise and legit 24 ppg 11 rpg All Star before joining LBJ at age 26.

LBJ's Ball Dominance style reduced Bosh to 16 PPG 6 RPG do not mean Bosh is any less.

Its LBJs fault that he cannot make players better under him. because he is a playmaker, ball dominator.

Especially when Bosh was 26 YO, LBJ was 25 YO and Wade was 29 YO. all in their best year.

That 3rd Franchise All-Star leader in Bosh and Love make HEAT and CAVs both SUPER teams not STACKED teams.

We're still on this?

I thought that one died years ago.

[gengiskhan]

We're still on this?

I thought that one died years ago.

Since the Goal Post kept moving for LBJ, this will pop up over and over again.

ESPN and Klutch Media's desperation in showing LBJ never had super team. MJ's Bulls were super team or at least stacked team. neither of it is true.

Here is what really happened.

Both Heat and Bulls showed up at the top of their decade. 1991 and 2011 respectively.

Unlike Bulls, Heat were literally handed down keys to weak, anemic East Conf. and young SUPER team. Hence, "not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7..."

SAS tried challenging Heat but were too old. OKC fizzeled away and were suppose to be true contenders to Heat.

It was GSW that really busted open Heat's championship decade long party. 4-peat turned into RE-peat for Heat.

GSW still turned into DYNASTY despite 1 painful loss. LBJ Colluded again in weak East Conf another SUPER Team hoping for DYNASTRY that never happened. then he jumps ship again to LA warm waters.

All LBJ has is this 4-6 losing record. with that laughable bubble ring!. thats a huge asteriks.

Now comes the pi$$ed off Media. ESPN and Klutch Media changing Goal Post after Goal Post. Either its MJs 1-9 start with cocaine circus OR MJs Final opponents were weak OR laughable longevity argument now.

this will continue. Because LBJ has not even single 3peat to show for. Despite 2 SUPER teams and 1 STACKED team.