Kobe has zero argument over Bron all-time rankings

[StrongLurk]

Lebron has better stats in reg, playoffs, and finals, more MVPS, more FMVPs, more everything.

Even Kobe's ring argument is invalid since his 2000 is trash compared to all time great "rings" - dude got annihilated by Jalen Rose and Reggie Miller, and was even outscored by Austin Croshere :oldlol:

Kobe stans need to stop being so convoluted/desperate and accept that Kobe will always be in the back half of the top ten while Lebron is cemented as the second best all time after MJ.

[ILLsmak]

we do this a lot lol

-Smak

[Dbrog]

You said zero argument and then listed an argument that someone could make to show Kobe is over Bron :lol

...that don't count tho cause Austin Croshere (his release is one of all-time favs btw alongside Matrix and Chuck Hayes)

edit: You may also want to start creating some asterisk for Kobe having more all-defensive teams too

[Kblaze8855]

we do this a lot lol

-Smak

Just reading the title reduced my personal charge by 12 percent. It’s literally draining.

[aj1987]

Welcome to 2012, kiddo.

[StrongLurk]

You said zero argument and then listed an argument that someone could make to show Kobe is over Bron :lol

...that don't count tho cause Austin Croshere (his release is one of all-time favs btw alongside Matrix and Chuck Hayes)

edit: You may also want to start creating some asterisk for Kobe having more all-defensive teams too

I explained how the "convoluted argument" is invalid. Also all defensive teams and even DPOY awards are way too arbitrary, narrative based, and unreliable. MVPs and All-NBA teams awards are far more valid and fact-based.

[JohnMax]

Lebron will win 3 championships, 3 finals mvps, and 2 regular season mvps as a Lakers. So his Lakers career alone is better than Kobe's entire career.

[ILLsmak]

Just reading the title reduced my personal charge by 12 percent. It’s literally draining.

Edit: i just remember a thread w the exact same title not just content. However i think it was a dream haha nitemare. I didnt even notice the title was engrish at a glance.

-Smak

[SouBeachTalents]

He has plenty of arguments

More rings
Better Finals record
Won b2b with just Gasol, while LeBron needed superstars for all his rings
Beat the teams LeBron lost to for the championship in '09 & '10
12 All-Defensive Teams
81 points
Only played for one team/more loyal
More clutch/better killer instinct

[eliteballer]

Keep suckin' LeRoid's steroid d!ck:oldlol:

His career is null and VOID.

[FultzNationRISE]

He has plenty of arguments

More rings
Better Finals record
Won b2b with just Gasol, while LeBron needed superstars for all his rings
Beat the teams LeBron lost to for the championship in '09 & '10
12 All-Defensive Teams
81 points
Only played for one team/more loyal
More clutch/better killer instinct


Laughing.gif

[aj1987]

Keep suckin' LeRoid's steroid d!ck:oldlol:

His career is null and VOID.

https://i.postimg.cc/RZfPY9sd/url-https-nbc-sports-production-nbc-sports-s3-us-east-1-amazonaws-com-brightspot-76-a7-24cf21fa76.jpg

[SouBeachTalents]

Laughing.gif
He had the mamba mentality

[eliteballer]

You dorks do realize that LeBron's going to get the Lance Armstrong treatment eventually right.

His career won't mean squat due to performance enhancers.

Save yourself the anguish now and stop your phony allegiance to cheating.

Salvation can be yours.

[StrongLurk]

He has plenty of arguments

More rings
Better Finals record
Won b2b with just Gasol, while LeBron needed superstars for all his rings
Beat the teams LeBron lost to for the championship in '09 & '10
12 All-Defensive Teams
81 points
Only played for one team/more loyal
More clutch/better killer instinct

Those are literally the crappiest, moat convoluted arguments. A bunch of "fluff".

[John8204]

You dorks do realize that LeBron's going to get the Lance Armstrong treatment eventually right.



Jordan has all the signs of long-term steroid use and we just ignore that

[WhiteKyrie]

2000 was a sidekick ring for Kobe but washed? He injured his ankle? And had the defining performance in the Finals winning a game in Indiana without Shaq on the floor. 2001 and 2002 he’s essentially co alpha rings. So that’s 4 which is the same number as Bron. And LeBron had many suspect or lockout or covid AAU shortened Mickey Mouse bubble chips. I think the discussion is way more nuanced than what you’re idiotically presenting. I think Bird, Magic, Kobe and LeBron are all on the same tier.

[Nb1]

He has! Some weird people think that getting trashed early in the playoffs is better than making it to finals, so there will be losers giving more value to losing and giving Kobe arguments.

[WhiteKyrie]

He has! Some weird people think that getting trashed early in the playoffs is better than making it to finals, so there will be losers giving more value to losing and giving Kobe arguments.

I think the value is winning it all and not losing in the Finals. Especially considering the historically weak ass conference in order to get there, combined with the consolidated amount of help from 2011 - 2018 by comparison to other teams in the conference to get there. It was cupcake road to the Finals where he still often lost. :oldlol:

[dankok8]

And Jordan has better stats than Lebron, more MVP's, more Finals MVP's yet some people are still arguing for Lebron.

The argument for Kobe is centered on the eye test and what he can do on the basketball court. If you don't care about stats and just break down the game, you can argue that Kobe is the GOAT quite easily. His skillet was truly legendary. That's not my criteria but some people think like that and who am I to tell them they are wrong. A lot of former players in fact hold Kobe in that kind of regard.

[WhiteKyrie]

And Jordan has better stats than Lebron, more MVP's, more Finals MVP's yet some people are still arguing for Lebron.

The argument for Kobe is centered on the eye test and what he can do on the basketball court. If you don't care about stats and just break down the game, you can argue that Kobe is the GOAT quite easily. His skillet was truly legendary. That's not my criteria but some people think like that and who am I to tell them they are wrong. A lot of former players in fact hold Kobe in that kind of regard.

So many of actual peers that played both, have Michael at number one and Kobe at number two. And they’re like steadfast in that breakdown

[StrongLurk]

2000 was a sidekick ring for Kobe but washed? He injured his ankle? And had the defining performance in the Finals winning a game in Indiana without Shaq on the floor. 2001 and 2002 he’s essentially co alpha rings. So that’s 4 which is the same number as Bron. And LeBron had many suspect or lockout or covid AAU shortened Mickey Mouse bubble chips. I think the discussion is way more nuanced than what you’re idiotically presenting. I think Bird, Magic, Kobe and LeBron are all on the same tier.

This whole "kobe won game 4 without Shaq" is such kobe stan bullshit. Shaq ACTUALLY won a game in that finals without Kobe, not the other way around.

Game 2 win:
Shaq: 40/24/4 with 3 blocks
Kobe: 2 points, 4 assists, 1 block

Game 4 win:
Shaq: 36/21/1/2/2
Kobe: 28/4/5/1/2

Oh and how did these two fair over the game 5/6 in the 2000 finals?
Shaq: 38/12/2/1/3 - 56.8 TS%
Kobe: 17/8/4/1.5/1 - 33.4 TS%

Shaq won in 2000 in spite of Kobe's horrible performance. I legit don't even "count" Kobe's 2000 rings when it comes to all-time discussions. People try to discredit KD putting up 35/8/5 on 70 TS% while winning FMVP, but then try to give Kobe FULL CREDIT for his 2000 ring? LOL.

[eliteballer]

This whole "kobe won game 4 without Shaq" is such kobe stan bullshit. Shaq ACTUALLY won a game in that finals without Kobe, not the other way around.

Game 2 win:
Shaq: 40/24/4 with 3 blocks
Kobe: 2 points, 4 assists, 1 block

Game 4 win:
Shaq: 36/21/1/2/2
Kobe: 28/4/5/1/2

Oh and how did these two fair over the game 5/6 in the 2000 finals?
Shaq: 38/12/2/1/3 - 56.8 TS%
Kobe: 17/8/4/1.5/1 - 33.4 TS%

Shaq won in 2000 in spite of Kobe's horrible performance. I legit don't even "count" Kobe's 2000 rings when it comes to all-time discussions. People try to discredit KD putting up 35/8/5 on 70 TS% while winning FMVP, but then try to give Kobe FULL CREDIT for his 2000 ring? LOL.


Kobe got injured in the middle of the Finals Roid fan, and he was the reason we won game 4.

Also, look at Kobe and Shaq's stats in Game 7 of the WCF..

[WhiteKyrie]

Kobe got injured in the middle of the Finals Roid fan, and he was the reason we won game 4.

Also, look at Kobe and Shaq's stats in Game 7 of the WCF..

Kobe was better in the 2001 and 2002 WCF both of which were more competitive than the Finals opponents themselves

[StrongLurk]

Kobe got injured in the middle of the Finals Roid fan, and he was the reason we won game 4.

Also, look at Kobe and Shaq's stats in Game 7 of the WCF..


I am fully aware Kobe got hurt, that makes Shaq carry job even more impressive. He won with a pre-prime, not 100% healthy Kobe. Oh by the way, Kobe being "hurt" didn't stop him from chucking 25 shots per game during games 4, 5, and 6.

Again read what you wrote. You want to give Kobe "all-time credit" for winning a ring in which he was 85-90% healthy or so and was a year before his real prime.

I mean if you want to do that, then you'd need to rank Scottie Pippen as a top 5-10 player all time as well.

Kobe has four rings in which he played at all time great levels during the year, same as Bron. If Bron won a ring this year avg 15ppg, it would do nothing for his all time standings.

There is no "defending" Kobe's 2000 ring as all-time great quality. It factually wasn't.

[ShawkFactory]

Kobe was better in the 2001 and 2002 WCF both of which were more competitive than the Finals opponents themselves

Ehhhhhhh

[WhiteKyrie]

Ehhhhhhh

30/14/2
27/6/4

Dual alpha numbers

[ShawkFactory]

30/14/2
27/6/4

Dual alpha numbers

I suppose. Your initial comment is that Kobe was better though which I'm not sure you can make that case. He was excellent in 4th quarters but Shaq was completely dominant.

[WhiteKyrie]

I suppose. Your initial comment is that Kobe was better though which I'm not sure you can make that case. He was excellent in 4th quarters but Shaq was completely dominant.

That one is about equal to me. And technically they should’ve lost that one anyway. Some heinous suspect officiating

[Lebron23]

You dorks do realize that LeBron's going to get the Lance Armstrong treatment eventually right.

His career won't mean squat due to performance enhancers.

Save yourself the anguish now and stop your phony allegiance to cheating.

Salvation can be yours.

Go to hell.

[Lebron23]

Lebron surpassed Kobe in 2013. It’s no longer a comparison in 2016 after LeBron beat a 73 wins team

[red1]

2 GOATs


glad I got to see both in their prime :applause:

[SaltyMeatballs]

He has plenty of arguments

More rings
Better Finals record
Won b2b with just Gasol, while LeBron needed superstars for all his rings
Beat the teams LeBron lost to for the championship in '09 & '10
12 All-Defensive Teams
81 points
Only played for one team/more loyal
More clutch/better killer instinct

You mention that LeBron needed superstars for all of his rings, but don't mention that 3 of Kobe's 5 rings are because of Shaq. That makes your Gasol statement flawed.

LeBron wasn't the "robin" in any of his rings

If we brought up all of the arguments for who's better, LeBron would most definitely have a longer list.

- More MVPs
- More FMVPs
- More all-time points
- Higher average for ppg/rpg/apg/spg/bpg
- More playoffs
- More all-star games
- More all-NBA teams (including first)
- More efficient
- Better playmaker
- Better three-point shooter
- Only player to cross 30k/10k/10k (soon to be 40k)
- Most consecutive seasons averaging at least 25/5/5
- Tied with Kobe for most game-winners ever
- Lead his team to the only 3-1 comeback ever in the finals and beat the greatest regular season team of all time

[Baller234]

You mention that LeBron needed superstars for all of his rings, but don't mention that 3 of Kobe's 5 rings are because of Shaq. That makes your Gasol statement flawed.

LeBron wasn't the "robin" in any of his rings

If we brought up all of the arguments for who's better, LeBron would most definitely have a longer list.

- More MVPs
- More FMVPs
- More all-time points
- Higher average for ppg/rpg/apg/spg/bpg
- More playoffs
- More all-star games
- More all-NBA teams (including first)
- More efficient
- Better playmaker
- Better three-point shooter
- Only player to cross 30k/10k/10k (soon to be 40k)
- Most consecutive seasons averaging at least 25/5/5
- Tied with Kobe for most game-winners ever
- Lead his team to the only 3-1 comeback ever in the finals and beat the greatest regular season team of all time

https://media4.giphy.com/media/J2DYCDA15pTau86IGr/giphy.gif

I could honestly pick apart your entire post, especially your over reliance on irrelevant stats.

But this one was just too much.

[SaltyMeatballs]

https://media4.giphy.com/media/J2DYCDA15pTau86IGr/giphy.gif

I could honestly pick apart your entire post, especially your over reliance on irrelevant stats.

But this one was just too much.

LeBron has an average of 4.6 3PA per game in his career and his career percentage is 34.5%

Kobe has an average of 4.1 3PA per game in his career and his career percentage is 32.9%

You tell me who the better three point shooter was.

"This one was just too much" he says :roll: Goofy ass troll

Also if you read the post I replied to, he also mentioned irrelevant stats. Things like "Beat the teams LeBron lost to for the championship in '09 & '10" and "Only played for one team/more loyal".

[eliteballer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmB6YCUzgMU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltUI54a4Vzk

[Xiao Yao You]

You mention that LeBron needed superstars for all of his rings, but don't mention that 3 of Kobe's 5 rings are because of Shaq. That makes your Gasol statement flawed.

LeBron wasn't the "robin" in any of his rings

If we brought up all of the arguments for who's better, LeBron would most definitely have a longer list.

- More MVPs
- More FMVPs
- More all-time points
- Higher average for ppg/rpg/apg/spg/bpg
- More playoffs
- More all-star games
- More all-NBA teams (including first)
- More efficient
- Better playmaker
- Better three-point shooter
- Only player to cross 30k/10k/10k (soon to be 40k)
- Most consecutive seasons averaging at least 25/5/5
- Tied with Kobe for most game-winners ever
- Lead his team to the only 3-1 comeback ever in the finals and beat the greatest regular season team of all time

Shaq was swept by an over the hill Jazz squad. They won because of Phil

[Full Court]

LeBron has an average of 4.6 3PA per game in his career and his career percentage is 34.5%

Kobe has an average of 4.1 3PA per game in his career and his career percentage is 32.9%

You tell me who the better three point shooter was.

"This one was just too much" he says :roll: Goofy ass troll

Also if you read the post I replied to, he also mentioned irrelevant stats. Things like "Beat the teams LeBron lost to for the championship in '09 & '10" and "Only played for one team/more loyal".

Jordan has a higher career finals 3-pt % than Lebron. Jordan is the better three point shooter.

[ImKobe]

https://youtu.be/44dTcc6RUqU

Bran stans need to get over it... Bran himself been a Kobe stan since the 90s and says that KB had 0 flaws offensively. KB got more rings and never left the Lakers to ring chase when he had 0 help at his absolute prime and still ended up with 5 titles..

[Baller234]

LeBron has an average of 4.6 3PA per game in his career and his career percentage is 34.5%

Kobe has an average of 4.1 3PA per game in his career and his career percentage is 32.9%

You tell me who the better three point shooter was.

"This one was just too much" he says :roll: Goofy ass troll

Also if you read the post I replied to, he also mentioned irrelevant stats. Things like "Beat the teams LeBron lost to for the championship in '09 & '10" and "Only played for one team/more loyal".

You're jumping to conclusions based on meaningless stats. If you actually watched the games and understood what was taking place, you wouldn't be saying this. Defenses have always given Bron more leeway to shoot than Kobe, because Kobe had the stroke to splash from 24 feet with a hand in his face like it's nothing.

If Kobe's percentage is lower, it's because he's not getting nearly as many open looks. You're telling me that if both guys are open, you're more confident in Bron shooting a 3 than Kobe?? Lol.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDWmwWdfrXc

[8Ball]

LeBron has an average of 4.6 3PA per game in his career and his career percentage is 34.5%

Kobe has an average of 4.1 3PA per game in his career and his career percentage is 32.9%

You tell me who the better three point shooter was.

"This one was just too much" he says :roll: Goofy ass troll

Also if you read the post I replied to, he also mentioned irrelevant stats. Things like "Beat the teams LeBron lost to for the championship in '09 & '10" and "Only played for one team/more loyal".


In their heads 32.9% > 34.5%

[Axe]

Braindead casual inserts jordan when he isn't even the player in topic on here. What an insecure buffoon. :hammerhead:

[Baller234]

In their heads 32.9% > 34.5%

It's really telling how you Bron stans don't know anything about basketball or what goes into it. You have such an elementary understanding of the game, if that.

All you're concerned with is stats. And it's not surprising, because so is the king.

https://nikelebron.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/news_lebron-james-check-my-stats-1.jpg


"He shoots 2% better from the line over the course of his career! He must be a better shooter! It's right there in the stats!"

- casual fans who don't know dick about hoops.

[jlip]

Are you all actually missing the sarcasm/ trolling in SouthBeachTalents' post? SMH!

[StrongLurk]

Still no real arguments presented for Kobe.

Bron passed Kobe for good in 2016, and has simply widened the gap 2017 to now. Kobe is still one of the GOATs, but he's in the back half.

[ImKobe]

Still no real arguments presented for Kobe.

Bron passed Kobe for good in 2016, and has simply widened the gap 2017 to now. Kobe is still one of the GOATs, but he's in the back half.

ESPN poll was hugely in Kobe's favor after Bran's 2016 title run.

[tpols]

Kobe was better because he needed less to win multiple times. And he was just factually better at basketball.

[SaltyMeatballs]

You're jumping to conclusions based on meaningless stats. If you actually watched the games and understood what was taking place, you wouldn't be saying this. Defenses have always given Bron more leeway to shoot than Kobe, because Kobe had the stroke to splash from 24 feet with a hand in his face like it's nothing.

If Kobe's percentage is lower, it's because he's not getting nearly as many open looks. You're telling me that if both guys are open, you're more confident in Bron shooting a 3 than Kobe?? Lol.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDWmwWdfrXc

First time I've ever heard anyone call 3P% a meaningless stat. You've just invalidated your whole argument. You've lost my attention.

[3ba11]

..
Lebron was superior at

* live-dribble rim attack
* transition rim attack
* ball-dominant team offense (inferior team offense) and only in a spaced-out format


Kobe is superior at:

* jumpshooting
* off-ball ability
* chemistry
* teammate development (doesn't impose spot-up roles like a ball-dominator)
* strategic capacity/coaching (capable of a ball movement system like Spurs/Warriors/Nuggets, aka dynasty-ball)
* go-to moves and clutch
* handle, aka "bag"
* fear factor
* competitiveness
* free throws
* tougher for opposing defenses because he must be met with 2nd defenders at rim AND on perimeter due to expert jumpshooting and ability to "get hot"
* winning (achieving higher team ceilings due to expert jumpshooting skill and the resulting ball movement and brand of ball that wins with less help)

[Baller234]

First time I've ever heard anyone call 3P% a meaningless stat. You've just invalidated your whole argument. You've lost my attention.

Lol okay bro. Way to ignore everything else I said in the post.

Just know that if you think Lebron is a better 3pt shooter than Kobe, you legitimately don't know shit about basketball. Defenders are actually okay with giving Lebron 3's. If Lebron settles for a 3, that's a win on defense and you live with the result.

Watch the video I posted again and look at the coverage. You don't see defenses giving Kobe 3's. There's a reason for that.

[Full Court]

Braindead casual inserts jordan when he isn't even the player in topic on here. What an insecure buffoon. :hammerhead:

^Autistic bitch fit. :roll:

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fyt3.ggpht.com%2Fa-%2FAN66SAwSezSUmgvG6qp5FSG4MmtjnrFnfygjwWV-iA%3Ds900-mo-c-c0xffffffff-rj-k-no&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=9e473703b6b6084958190266bb0cd5c33ce892a3d5a7d7 5a548184474343e25a&ipo=images

[Axe]

Are you all actually missing the sarcasm/ trolling in SouthBeachTalents' post? SMH!
Lol. (https://i.ibb.co/gDsySW3/IMG-20230603-203842.jpg)

[Full Court]

I have Bronie ranked ahead of Kobe on the all time list, but anyone who thinks Lebron is a better three point shooter is trolling or an idiot.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdN2HLThDmw

[Axe]

..
Lebron was superior at

* live-dribble rim attack
* transition rim attack
* ball-dominant team offense (inferior team offense) and only in a spaced-out format


Kobe is superior at:

* jumpshooting
* off-ball ability
* chemistry
* teammate development (doesn't impose spot-up roles like a ball-dominator)
* strategic capacity/coaching (capable of a ball movement system like Spurs/Warriors/Nuggets, aka dynasty-ball)
* go-to moves and clutch
* handle, aka "bag"
* fear factor
* competitiveness
* free throws
* tougher for opposing defenses because he must be met with 2nd defenders at rim AND on perimeter due to expert jumpshooting and ability to "get hot"
* winning (achieving higher team ceilings due to expert jumpshooting skill and the resulting ball movement and brand of ball that wins with less help)
Meh. (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTmbOtuqJMp3EQExdTp47ssNMsQXEcmO yLsfA&usqp=CAU)

1-9

[Soundwave]

I have LeBron as a bit better, but if someone wants to say Kobe over LeBron, I'm not going to really going to fall out of my seat.

I think the 2009 Lakers would beat any of the LeBron championship teams.

LeBron is a "greater" player, but I think he would lose to that Lakers team with Kobe on it. Kobe used to kill the Spurs.

[Axe]

I have LeBron as a bit better, but if someone wants to say Kobe over LeBron, I'm not going to really going to fall out of my seat.

I think the 2009 Lakers would beat any of the LeBron championship teams.

LeBron is a "greater" player, but I think he would lose to that Lakers team with Kobe on it. Kobe used to kill the Spurs.
Isn't kong 16-6 in all-time h2h rs games against mamba? I think that alone can speak how they could have fared up against each other in the finals.

[WhiteKyrie]

I have LeBron as a bit better, but if someone wants to say Kobe over LeBron, I'm not going to really going to fall out of my seat.

I think the 2009 Lakers would beat any of the LeBron championship teams.

LeBron is a "greater" player, but I think he would lose to that Lakers team with Kobe on it. Kobe used to kill the Spurs.
Then why do you have LeBron a bit better? You basically described a rationale for him not being so.

[ShawkFactory]

Kobe was better because he needed less to win multiple times. And he was just factually better at basketball.

Winning with less is not an argument. That’s a product of circumstance. Duncan won with less than anything Kobe’s ever done but I have a feeling some type of context would have to come into play for you that you wouldn’t pay mind to if things were reversed.

Just today in the Melo thread you were talking about how the Nuggets, who were a 50 something win team in that wild Wild West, were outmatched by what the Lakers had. Just Melo/Billups/JR Smith and solid role players, you said. That was the toughest comp that year.

I think it’s an actual very close battle but Lebron playing and winning with Wade doesn’t make him less good at basketball. Weak argument.

[SaltyMeatballs]

I have Bronie ranked ahead of Kobe on the all time list, but anyone who thinks Lebron is a better three point shooter is trolling or an idiot.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdN2HLThDmw

You're just cherrypicking.

Here, I'll do the same thing you just did


https://youtu.be/RcwopW6k3cc?si=1BNF0YDLLdpiA7f4

[Soundwave]

Then why do you have LeBron a bit better? You basically described a rationale for him not being so.

Because overall I think LeBron can do more on the court and has a bit more size so positionally you get a little more flexibility there, but people are starting the underrate Kobe a bit here too.

Kobe is legitimately one of probably the three most skilled scorers in the history of the game (along with Jordan and I guess Wilt). He hit 81 points once, but legitimately, I think he could've probably gotten to 70-80+ two or three other times in his career. And those 40-point games in a row (however many that was), it just felt like he could do that for half a season if he really wanted to, he voluntarily stopped. A lot of it was held back because Phil Jackson wanted him to defer to Shaq or not shoot too much.

When he was feeling it, it was legitimately scary how good he was, bordering on unstoppable.

And I say that as someone who never really was a big Kobe Bryant fan.

[Soundwave]

dp

[Lebron23]

I have LeBron as a bit better, but if someone wants to say Kobe over LeBron, I'm not going to really going to fall out of my seat.

I think the 2009 Lakers would beat any of the LeBron championship teams.

LeBron is a "greater" player, but I think he would lose to that Lakers team with Kobe on it. Kobe used to kill the Spurs.

I remember you supported lebron before he won a couple of NBA championships. LeBron beat superior team than Jordan in the nba finals. There is a reason he never won a title in the 1980's. He beat a bunch of weak sauce teams in 1990's. 1999 Spurs would beat them.

[Axe]

You're just cherrypicking.

Here, I'll do the same thing you just did


https://youtu.be/RcwopW6k3cc?si=1BNF0YDLLdpiA7f4
https://media.tenor.com/xZm5QHMWi6wAAAAC/kevin-garnett-oh.gif

[red1]

2009 lebron is better than every version of kobe
2012 lebron is better than every version of kobe
2013 lebron is better than every version of kobe
2016 lebron is better than every version of kobe
2018 lebron is better than every version of kobe

[StrongLurk]

I still haven't seen anything but cherry-picked or convoluted arguments for Kobe being better.

Kobe was great but not greater than LBJ. Just like how LBJ is not greater than MJ.

Ultimately Kobe stans don't want to accept that Lebron's physical talents are what gives Lebron the edge over Kobe. Sorry Kobe stans, but size and athleticism still matter a lot in basketball.

[SouBeachTalents]

2009 lebron is better than every version of kobe
2012 lebron is better than every version of kobe
2013 lebron is better than every version of kobe
2016 lebron is better than every version of kobe
2018 lebron is better than every version of kobe
The harsh truth is peak wise Kobe wasn’t noticeably better than Wade, Kawhi or KD. He was an ATG but gets CRAZY overrated, and absolutely does not belong in the LeBron/Jordan class either peak wise or all time.

[Full Court]

You're just cherrypicking.

Here, I'll do the same thing you just did


https://youtu.be/RcwopW6k3cc?si=1BNF0YDLLdpiA7f4

Obviously it was cherrypicking. But it definitely did get a rise out of you. :roll:

Are you going to try to argue that LeBrick is a better three point shooter than Kobe? Can't wait to hear this.

[WhiteKyrie]

I remember you supported lebron before he won a couple of NBA championships. LeBron beat superior team than Jordan in the nba finals. There is a reason he never won a title in the 1980's. He beat a bunch of weak sauce teams in 1990's. 1999 Spurs would beat them.

I don’t necessarily buy that. Especially given circumstances

[SaltyMeatballs]

Obviously it was cherrypicking. But it definitely did get a rise out of you. :roll:

Are you going to try to argue that LeBrick is a better three point shooter than Kobe? Can't wait to hear this.

This guy thinks having a normal response means that he's getting a rise out of me :oldlol:

Yes, LeBron is a better 3 point shooter than Kobe. Shot selection plays a role in that, and that's an area where Kobe lacked in, even when it came to threes.

[Full Court]

This guy thinks having a normal response means that he's getting a rise out of me :oldlol:

Yes, LeBron is a better 3 point shooter than Kobe. Shot selection plays a role in that, and that's an area where Kobe lacked in, even when it came to threes.

Kobe had worse shot selection. I'll grant you that. However, by any reasonable person's measure, he was a better three point shooter than Lebron.

[SaltyMeatballs]

Kobe had worse shot selection. I'll grant you that. However, by any reasonable person's measure, he was a better three point shooter than Lebron.

Kobe made tougher shots, I'll give him that. LeBron is smarter with his shot selection.

[Axe]

Kobe made tougher shots, I'll give him that. LeBron is smarter with his shot selection.
Kobe made quantity shots at the expense of quality. It's not very surprising that a clueless braindead psychopath like him couldn't comprehend something simple like this at all. :confusedshrug: :oldlol:

(Cue in the butthurt meltdown later on)

[Full Court]

Kobe made quantity shots at the expense of quality. It's not very surprising that a clueless braindead psychopath like him couldn't comprehend something simple like this at all. :confusedshrug: :oldlol:

(Cue in the butthurt meltdown later on)

Dumb AND stinky.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FiF7YSTI yPdhoccP5yQ%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=226521b0ff653e91a0996b2c0c2256945bfb51483526d5 b21ee345563fa25a6a&ipo=images

[Full Court]

Kobe made tougher shots, I'll give him that. LeBron is smarter with his shot selection.

Right.

And Kobe is the better three point shooter. The difference in shot selection is not as big as you think though. Kobe was contested behind the arc. Whoever is defending Lebron generally lets him shoot open all he wants from three. Because he's not a very good three point shooter.

[Axe]

^^Insecure redneck incel alert.

https://media.tenor.com/1G4CwthuhgIAAAAC/coppercab.gif

[Baller234]

This guy thinks having a normal response means that he's getting a rise out of me :oldlol:

Yes, LeBron is a better 3 point shooter than Kobe. Shot selection plays a role in that, and that's an area where Kobe lacked in, even when it came to threes.

I don't know about that. How many times has Lebron cost his team the game because he chose to settle for pull up 3's in crunch time when he should have been more aggressive? There's a reason the defense gives him those 3's.

I wouldn't say he's a bad shooter by any stretch but he's not a "great" shooter either, and it shouldn't be his go-to move when the game is on the line. When it happens you're usually left thinking "What is he doing!?!?"

[Full Court]

Did it again. :confusedshrug: Sent the autistic idiot into a bitch fit. :roll:

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fgiffiles.alphacoders.com%2F118%2F 118865.gif&f=1&nofb=1

[Hey Yo]

Did it again. :confusedshrug: Sent the autistic idiot into a bitch fit. :roll:

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fgiffiles.alphacoders.com%2F118%2F 118865.gif&f=1&nofb=1

Banned fakkit is banned

[8Ball]

It's really telling how you Bron stans don't know anything about basketball or what goes into it. You have such an elementary understanding of the game, if that.

All you're concerned with is stats. And it's not surprising, because so is the king.

https://nikelebron.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/news_lebron-james-check-my-stats-1.jpg


"He shoots 2% better from the line over the course of his career! He must be a better shooter! It's right there in the stats!"

- casual fans who don't know dick about hoops.

Tell me more about how someone that shoots 32.9% from 3 is a better 3 point shooter than 34.5 on less volume.

LeBron has a ton of bailout 3s at the end of the clock too. On top of that often chucks out 3s from right after half court which is a terrible % shot for LeBron.

[Baller234]

i actually do think there's a touch of autism when it comes to lebron fans.

all they know how to do is look at a stat sheet.

"lebron fills out the stat sheet, therefore he must be the best"

yet they can never explain how the supposed best player ever has a losing record in the finals despite playing with a never-ending string of all-stars and hall of famers. can't be that maybe lebron isn't as good as they think he is. i mean look at the stats bro. obviously his teammates came up short.

i will give lebron a pass in 2007. his team was severely outmatched. every other series was winnable if you want to be considered the best to ever play the game. i don't care how good the other teams were. lebron had good teams too.

mind you under normal circumstances i would never ever be this critical of a player. lebron is a generational all time talent that will go down in history. it's really his braindead fans so hellbent on lifting him to goat status over jordan. that's when the gloves come off.

you want be to compared to jordan, you get held to the jordan standard.

[8Ball]

So now we are moving the goal posts from three point % to team accomplishments in the finals.

Russell 11 championships means Russell > Jordan?



The reason why you hate LeBron so much is because you can only understand basketball from a PPG perspective.

[Baller234]

So now we are moving the goal posts from three point % to team accomplishments in the finals.

Russell 11 championships means Russell > Jordan?

unlike you though i can actually provide context for those arguments. i could explain why jordan only has 6 compared to russell's 11.

but when you guys are tasked with defending lebron, all you guys know how to do is copy and paste stats.

[8Ball]

You afforded zero context for LeBron losing in the finals and you want "context" for why 11 championships for Russell is not more impressive than Michael Jordan's 6.

[Baller234]

You afforded zero context for LeBron losing in the finals and you want "context" for why 11 championships for Russell is not more impressive than Michael Jordan's 6.

i did give context though. i gave context for why lebron gets a pass in 07 and why he doesn't get as much of a pass for the rest.

[8Ball]

i did give context though. i gave context for why lebron gets a pass in 07 and why he doesn't get as much of a pass for the rest.

Mathew Dellavadova and Mozgov are good enough as 2nd and 3rd options in 2015 to beat a 67 win Warriors team that won 73 games the next year.


Kobe and Jordan woulda beat that 2015 Warriors team with Mathew Delly as their 2nd option!

[Baller234]

Mathew Dellavadova and Mozgov are good enough as 2nd and 3rd options in 2015 to beat a 67 win Warriors team that won 73 games the next year.

okay that's fair. cleveland was plagued by injury going into the finals that year.

i stand by the rest. those series were winnable. lebron had good teams too.

[8Ball]

2017 is not winnable and neither is 2018.


2011 was winnable.

Maybe 2014, but Wade was finished physically by then.

[Baller234]

2017 is not winnable and neither is 2018.


2011 was winnable.

Maybe 2014, but Wade was finished physically by then.

the durant-curry-klay warriors were taken to 7 games by the rockets led by chris paul and james harden, weren't they?

[8Ball]

2017 Warriors lost 1 game the entire playoffs.


Kyrie was not on the roster in 2018. That's a 65 win Rockets team in 2018. They weren't a shit team.


The only series LeBron deserves shit for was 2011.

[Baller234]

2017 Warriors lost 1 game the entire playoffs.


Kyrie was not on the roster in 2018. That's a 65 win Rockets team in 2018. They weren't a shit team.


The only series LeBron deserves shit for was 2011.

what about the year before? same warrior team.

[8Ball]

What are you talking about?


Warriors in 2017 swept the entire playoffs except for 1 game in the finals.

Warriors in 2018 went to 7 games against a 65 win Houston team.

[Axe]

2017 Warriors lost 1 game the entire playoffs.


Kyrie was not on the roster in 2018. That's a 65 win Rockets team in 2018. They weren't a shit team.


The only series LeBron deserves shit for was 2011.
Lol this definitely reminded me of something from an old post in an old thread months ago.


I think it's the other way around. Remember when a couple of days ago you said Kyrie was on the '18 Cavs? Once I pointed out that you were wrong, you didn't even address your mistake. :lol
:roll: (https://i.ibb.co/Tk7MjGg/IMG-20220829-102950.jpg)

[Baller234]

What are you talking about?


Warriors in 2017 swept the entire playoffs except for 1 game in the finals.

Warriors in 2018 went to 7 games against a 65 win Houston team.

same team though. same core, same players.

just earlier you said the 2015 warriors was the same team that won 73 games the following year. okay well by that logic, the 2018 warriors were the same team that swept the playoffs the year before.

fact is we saw that durant-curry-klay were not some unbeatable team. they got pushed to 7 games by a good rockets team but nobody would call the rockets an all time team. if they can come that close, then the best player ever along with kyrie and love should have stood a better chance.

[Full Court]

Lol this definitely reminded me of something from an old post in an old thread months ago.


:roll: (https://i.ibb.co/Tk7MjGg/IMG-20220829-102950.jpg)

I am DEEEEEEEP in this guy's head. :roll:

Autism....

[Axe]

https://i.ibb.co/gDsySW3/IMG-20230603-203842.jpg
What he actually meant. :confusedshrug:

Look at what meth does to a mentally ill mongoloid. What a sore loser. :roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

i actually do think there's a touch of autism when it comes to lebron fans.

all they know how to do is look at a stat sheet.

"lebron fills out the stat sheet, therefore he must be the best"

yet they can never explain how the supposed best player ever has a losing record in the finals despite playing with a never-ending string of all-stars and hall of famers. can't be that maybe lebron isn't as good as they think he is. i mean look at the stats bro. obviously his teammates came up short.

i will give lebron a pass in 2007. his team was severely outmatched. every other series was winnable if you want to be considered the best to ever play the game. i don't care how good the other teams were. lebron had good teams too.

mind you under normal circumstances i would never ever be this critical of a player. lebron is a generational all time talent that will go down in history. it's really his braindead fans so hellbent on lifting him to goat status over jordan. that's when the gloves come off.

you want be to compared to jordan, you get held to the jordan standard.
There is NO fvcking way you believe the 2018 Finals were winnable :lol No player in history is beating the Warriors with that Cavs supporting cast, the guy dropped 50 in the opener and still lost.

2015 is also ridiculous to expect him to beat a dynasty level team without his 2 best players.

2017 he did have an elite supporting cast but was going up against a team many consider the greatest ever. The two teams went down to the wire the year before, then one adds peak Kevin Durant, not a surprise they'd lose that series.

[Soundwave]

If you put the 20 best players in the history of the sport on a court all in their primes, there sure as **** would be days where Kobe is the best player on the court, above LeBron, Jordan, Bird, Magic, whatever.

There would be days where Hakeem is probably the best player on the court. There would be days where it's hands down Shaq. Etc. etc. etc.

The margins of these things aren't as large as people make it out to be.

Kobe is probably the second most skilled scorer in the history of the sport after Jordan, and he could be a very good defensive player too and probably easily one of the 5 most fierce, intense competitors to ever play (honestly I would say it's basically him and Mike at the top of that, both are borderline unhealthy about competition and intensity) ... any player who can say that is going to be no push over against anyone.

[Lebron23]

If you put the 20 best players in the history of the sport on a court all in their primes, there sure as **** would be days where Kobe is the best player on the court, above LeBron, Jordan, Bird, Magic, whatever.

There would be days where Hakeem is probably the best player on the court. There would be days where it's hands down Shaq. Etc. etc. etc.

The margins of these things aren't as large as people make it out to be.

Kobe is probably the second most skilled scorer in the history of the sport after Jordan, and he could be a very good defensive player too and probably easily one of the 5 most fierce, intense competitors to ever play (honestly I would say it's basically him and Mike at the top of that, both are borderline unhealthy about competition and intensity) ... any player who can say that is going to be no push over against anyone.

But he was a very inefficient scorer in the playoffs and finals. That is the reason he only won 2 finals mvp.

[Baller234]

There is NO fvcking way you believe the 2018 Finals were winnable :lol No player in history is beating the Warriors with that Cavs supporting cast, the guy dropped 50 in the opener and still lost.

2015 is also ridiculous to expect him to beat a dynasty level team without his 2 best players.

2017 he did have an elite supporting cast but was going up against a team many consider the greatest ever. The two teams went down to the wire the year before, then one adds peak Kevin Durant, not a surprise they'd lose that series.

i already apologized for 2015.

the 2017 warriors are the same team as the 2018 warriors, a team that was pushed to 7 games by the houston rockets. i reject the notion that the warriors were beatable in 2018 but not 2017. it's the same team.

yes the warriors are an all time team, but lebron had a great team too. if chris paul and james harden can push them to 7 games, don't say that the 2017 cavs led by lebron james who is supposed to be the greatest ever didn't have a chance.

don't even get me started on 2011 and 2014. both of those series were winnable, especially if you are saying the guy is the greatest ever.

[8Ball]

i already apologized for 2015.

the 2017 warriors are the same team as the 2018 warriors, a team that was pushed to 7 games by the houston rockets. i reject the notion that the warriors were beatable in 2018 but not 2017. it's the same team.

yes the warriors are an all time team, but lebron had a great team too. if chris paul and james harden can push them to 7 games, don't say that the 2017 cavs led by lebron james who is supposed to be the greatest ever didn't have a chance.

don't even get me started on 2011 and 2014. both of those series were winnable, especially if you are saying the guy is the greatest ever.

Huh?

Because 2018 Warriors went 7 games against a 65 win Houston team, that means LeBron and the Cavs should have won in 2017 against that Warriors team.

You are trying to splice different years together. This argument makes no sense.

[Baller234]

Huh?

Because 2018 Warriors went 7 games against a 65 win Houston team, that means LeBron and the Cavs should have won in 2017 against that Warriors team.

This argument makes no sense.

why doesn't it make sense? you guys keep insisting that the warriors were some unstoppable, unbeatable team that no team in history could ever hope to compete with.

but we saw them almost get beat, and it wasn't against some all time team.

[8Ball]

The 2017 Warriors swept the entire playoffs except for 1 game.

2018 Warriors played worst than their 2017 selves but the 2018 Cavs didn't have Kyrie.



The Warriors went to the finals 5 years in a row in a tougher conference. That hasn't been done in 60 years.

When teams are relatively even in 2023, Bran beat them.

[Baller234]

lmao, so the 2017 warriors were unbeatable but not the 2018 warriors? this is your argument?

literally the same team.

[8Ball]

2017 Warriors won 67 games and swept the playoffs.

2018 Warriors won 58 games and didn't.

"Same team"


2013 Heat > 2014 Heat even though it was same roster. Breaking news, teams with same rosters don't always play as good the next year.

[Baller234]

2017 Warriors won 67 games.

2018 Warriors won 58 games.

we're comparing teams based on regular season wins? curry only played 51 games that season. who gives a fukk?

i don't care what they did in the regular season. it's the same team. it's not like they got worse or lost key components.

[8Ball]

2018 Warriors are not the same team as the 2017 Warriors.


There are ZERO warrior fans that would admit this.


Just bow out and drop this topic.

[SaltyMeatballs]

lmao, so the 2017 warriors were unbeatable but not the 2018 warriors? this is your argument?

literally the same team.

2017 Warriors were better than the 2018 Warriors.

The reason why the 2017 Warriors were better is because they were more poised. KD was playing more in the flow of the offense and doing the extra dirty work because he had something to prove. Basically did everything to put the team in front. In 2018, the Warriors were still dominant but not as much as they were in 2017.

[eliteballer]

LePED will never go down in history greater than Kobe.

[SouBeachTalents]

i already apologized for 2015.

the 2017 warriors are the same team as the 2018 warriors, a team that was pushed to 7 games by the houston rockets. i reject the notion that the warriors were beatable in 2018 but not 2017. it's the same team.

yes the warriors are an all time team, but lebron had a great team too. if chris paul and james harden can push them to 7 games, don't say that the 2017 cavs led by lebron james who is supposed to be the greatest ever didn't have a chance.

don't even get me started on 2011 and 2014. both of those series were winnable, especially if you are saying the guy is the greatest ever.
It was the same core but the 2018 team was not firing on all cylinders like the 2017 team was, just as they weren't in 2019. Teams can have the same core of players but one version can clearly be better than the other. The '01 & '02 Lakers are a great example of this. They were by all accounts the same team, but the '01 team played at a GOAT level in the playoffs, while the '02 team needed lucky breaks and infamously rigged officiating just to beat the Kings, a team they swept the year before.

So just like I do not think the '02 Kings push the '01 Lakers to 7 games, I do not think the 2018 Rockets push the 2017 Warriors to 7 games either.

Regardless of how you feel about the Warriors, the 2018 Cavs were simply not a tile contending team, which is my biggest issue with your claim. They needed 7 games to squeak by a mediocre Pacer team, then needed 7 games again to squeak by a Celtics team with baby Tatum/Brown and Kyrie missing the entire series. LeBron needed to play the best basketball of his life for them just to eek their way through those series. The talent disparity in that Finals was honestly absurd, it bordered on comical.

[SaltyMeatballs]

LePED will never go down in history greater than Kobe.

He passed Kobe in 2016 bud. That 3-1 comeback against the Warriors solidified him as a top 3 player ever.

[Baller234]

2018 Warriors are not the same team as the 2017 Warriors.


There are ZERO warrior fans that would admit this.


Just bow out and drop this topic.

8ball:

"hey come on cut lebron a break, he lost to a warriors team that went onto win 73 games the following year..."

also 8ball:

"you can't compare the same team from two different years, they weren't the same team..."

[8Ball]

8ball:

"hey come on cut lebron a break, he lost to a warriors team that went onto win 73 games the following year..."

also 8ball:

"you can't compare the same team from two different years, they weren't the same team..."


2015 Warriors great
2016 Warriors even greater than 2015

2017 Warriors GOAT
2018 Warriors Worst than 2017

Time to bow out of this thread kid.

[8Ball]

It was the same core but the 2018 team was not firing on all cylinders like the 2017 team was, just as they weren't in 2019. Teams can have the same core of players but one version can clearly be better than the other. The '01 & '02 Lakers are a great example of this. They were by all accounts the same team, but the '01 team played at a GOAT level in the playoffs, while the '02 team needed lucky breaks and infamously rigged officiating just to beat the Kings, a team they swept the year before.

So just like I do not think the '02 Kings push the '01 Lakers to 7 games, I do not think the 2018 Rockets push the 2017 Warriors to 7 games either.

Regardless of how you feel about the Warriors, the 2018 Cavs were simply not a tile contending team, which is my biggest issue with your claim. They needed 7 games to squeak by a mediocre Pacer team, then needed 7 games again to squeak by a Celtics team with baby Tatum/Brown and Kyrie missing the entire series. LeBron needed to play the best basketball of his life for them just to eek their way through those series. The talent disparity in that Finals was honestly absurd, it bordered on comical.

This is common sense to the most casual NBA observer yet baller234 pretzeled his way into bad arguments and is trying to make sense of it all.

[Soundwave]

But he was a very inefficient scorer in the playoffs and finals. That is the reason he only won 2 finals mvp.

No the reason he only has 2 Finals MVPs is because he deferred to Shaq in the Finals since Shaq made it a huge deal about having to go HAM in the Finals because he felt embarrassed by the 1995 Finals and getting swept by Houston. So Kobe let him have that, by 2001/2002 it was pretty obvious that Kobe was closing in on being as good as Shaq, which is nothing to scoff at because Shaq is easily a top 8 player in my book.

The Lakers "Real Finals" were always against the Blazers, Kings, or Spurs too ... the NBA Finals against the garbage from the Eastern Conference was always a given victory. The Pacers maybe had a tiny chance of winning in 2000, but in 2001 and 2002, the Lakers had no chance of losing the Finals.

Kobe sacrificed some individual numbers for sure in the first 8 years of his career, he could've put up 30+ ppg in a lot of those seasons if he had been drafted to a more traditional kind of situation (like a normal rebuilding team). He toned down his individual stats so Shaq could get his.

He is in my book the 2nd most skilled scorer in the history of the game, 2nd most intense competitor to ever play, very, very good defender too in his prime. Can't take any of those things away from him, dude was a cold motherf*cker with a shit-ton of talent and maybe the craziest work ethic the sport has ever seen.

[red1]

No the reason he only has 2 Finals MVPs is because he deferred to Shaq in the Finals since Shaq made it a huge deal about having to go HAM in the Finals because he felt embarrassed by the 1995 Finals and getting swept by Houston. So Kobe let him have that, by 2001/2002 it was pretty obvious that Kobe was closing in on being as good as Shaq, which is nothing to scoff at because Shaq is easily a top 8 player in my book.

The Lakers "Real Finals" were always against the Blazers, Kings, or Spurs too ... the NBA Finals against the garbage from the Eastern Conference was always a given victory. The Pacers maybe had a tiny chance of winning in 2000, but in 2001 and 2002, the Lakers had no chance of losing the Finals.

Kobe sacrificed some individual numbers for sure in the first 8 years of his career, he could've put up 30+ ppg in a lot of those seasons if he had been drafted to a more traditional kind of situation (like a normal rebuilding team). He toned down his individual stats so Shaq could get his.

He is in my book the 2nd most skilled scorer in the history of the game, 2nd most intense competitor to ever play, very, very good defender too in his prime. Can't take any of those things away from him, dude was a cold motherf*cker with a shit-ton of talent and maybe the craziest work ethic the sport has ever seen.

:applause:

[Lebron23]

No the reason he only has 2 Finals MVPs is because he deferred to Shaq in the Finals since Shaq made it a huge deal about having to go HAM in the Finals because he felt embarrassed by the 1995 Finals and getting swept by Houston. So Kobe let him have that, by 2001/2002 it was pretty obvious that Kobe was closing in on being as good as Shaq, which is nothing to scoff at because Shaq is easily a top 8 player in my book.

The Lakers "Real Finals" were always against the Blazers, Kings, or Spurs too ... the NBA Finals against the garbage from the Eastern Conference was always a given victory. The Pacers maybe had a tiny chance of winning in 2000, but in 2001 and 2002, the Lakers had no chance of losing the Finals.

Kobe sacrificed some individual numbers for sure in the first 8 years of his career, he could've put up 30+ ppg in a lot of those seasons if he had been drafted to a more traditional kind of situation (like a normal rebuilding team). He toned down his individual stats so Shaq could get his.

He is in my book the 2nd most skilled scorer in the history of the game, 2nd most intense competitor to ever play, very, very good defender too in his prime. Can't take any of those things away from him, dude was a cold motherf*cker with a shit-ton of talent and maybe the craziest work ethic the sport has ever seen. why was his shooting percentage terrible?

[Baller234]

2015 Warriors great
2016 Warriors even greater than 2015

2017 Warriors GOAT
2018 Warriors Worst than 2017

Time to bow out of this thread kid.

oh i see, so the logic of comparing teams from two different seasons only makes sense when you do it.

good to know.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/J2DYCDA15pTau86IGr/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952qp9n2noszb20tbw8586gg5u7jtk1 qipmbacsn16u&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

[dankok8]

It's honestly weird how people are constantly making excuses like "Ohh tough competition". If you're the GOAT playing with ample talent as Lebron did, you're supposed to be able to beat all-time great teams at least some of the time. And it's not just the losing. It's how you lose. Lebron's teams got their shit pushed in 2007, 2014, 2017 and 2018. Like they weren't even competitive which is a bad look. 2011 was obviously a colossal choke but everyone knows about that. Only 2015 can be excused due to teammate injuries.

Plus there is strong winning bias at play when discussing competition. Jordan's competition is looked at as being weaker because they never won. If those teams won a few titles in the 90's they would be looked at different. For instance, sometimes people are surprised that the 1997 and 1998 Jazz are 7th and 18th all time in rORtg. They are literally among the best offenses of all time and they were also solid on defense. Winning bias is so strong that people are totally convinced that the Bulls would have had a tough time with the 1994 and 1995 Rockets and the 1999 Spurs if MJ never retired even though those teams were less dominant than those Jazz teams over the course of the entire season and playoffs before meeting the Bulls.

[ArbitraryWater]

It's honestly weird how people are constantly making excuses like "Ohh tough competition". If you're the GOAT playing with ample talent as Lebron did, you're supposed to be able to beat all-time great teams at least some of the time. And it's not just the losing. It's how you lose. Lebron's teams got their shit pushed in 2007, 2014, 2017 and 2018. Like they weren't even competitive which is a bad look. 2011 was obviously a colossal choke but everyone knows about that. Only 2015 can be completely excused due to teammate injuries.

Plus there is strong winning bias at play when discussing competition. Jordan's competition is looked at as being weaker because they never won. If those teams won a few titles in the 90's they would be looked at different. For instance, sometimes people are surprised that the 1997 and 1998 Jazz are 7th and 18th all time in rORtg. They are literally among the best offenses of all time and they were also solid on defense. Winning bias is so strong that people are totally convinced that the Bulls would have had a tough time with the 1994 and 1995 Rockets and the 1999 Spurs if MJ never retired even though those teams were less dominant than those Jazz teams over the course of the entire season and playoffs before meeting the Bulls.


In 2017 they gave the greatest team ever a beatdown in what was the best offensive performance in finals history.

In 2018 they literally had the game stolen from them.

If you choose to ignore that, be a bad person.


Yeah, the 98 Jazz would have won the chip and the refs wouldnt have taken clean makes from them saying they came after the shotclock expired while giving the Bulls shots that happened after it actually expired.


Again, you can take these things into account or be an ignorant.


But its odd how you talk about results like they werent heavily influenced by an outside hand.

[dankok8]

2017 beatdown? You must mean in Game 4 after going down 0-3 lol

[WhiteKyrie]

It's honestly weird how people are constantly making excuses like "Ohh tough competition". If you're the GOAT playing with ample talent as Lebron did, you're supposed to be able to beat all-time great teams at least some of the time. And it's not just the losing. It's how you lose. Lebron's teams got their shit pushed in 2007, 2014, 2017 and 2018. Like they weren't even competitive which is a bad look. 2011 was obviously a colossal choke but everyone knows about that. Only 2015 can be excused due to teammate injuries.

Plus there is strong winning bias at play when discussing competition. Jordan's competition is looked at as being weaker because they never won. If those teams won a few titles in the 90's they would be looked at different. For instance, sometimes people are surprised that the 1997 and 1998 Jazz are 7th and 18th all time in rORtg. They are literally among the best offenses of all time and they were also solid on defense. Winning bias is so strong that people are totally convinced that the Bulls would have had a tough time with the 1994 and 1995 Rockets and the 1999 Spurs if MJ never retired even though those teams were less dominant than those Jazz teams over the course of the entire season and playoffs before meeting the Bulls.

But that’s the entire crux of a dumb LeBron Stan argument.

They literally are discrediting winning in favor of losing, and using losing to uplift the loser and not winning to uplift the winning :oldlol: it’s literally lowering the bar of the standard of success of greatness.

It’s that good job, good effort from the 2014 Finals in real life. Softest fan based of all time. They literally hand out trophies for participation. Like who cares that he went to eighth straight finals, that’s not rewardable. He played in an absolutely dog shit conference, with the most amount of consolidated talent around him within the dog shit conference. Played on two super teams on two different franchises. With two perennial All-Stars and future Hall of Famers next to him in that weak ass conference, there’s no excuse he shouldn’t have been in the finals. Even the 2018 one. They lost Kyrie, but they still had the same core of the team that went to the finals the previous seasons, and Kevin Love was still a legitimate All-Star.

It is the biggest loser and excuse making mentality. LeBron has it himself, and his fans have it even worse.

So competition is only legit competition, if you lose? That makes no sense.

It would be like saying the 2023 USA team faced superior competition than the redeem team, even though the redeem team faced the absolute best version and peak Spain in the gold medal game? But they won so it’s inferior competition?

Those old Stockton and Malone Jazz spanked an utterly stacked Laker team with prime Shaq, Eddie Jones, Van Excel and young Kobe.

Jordan’s competition doesn’t count as competition or as super teams, because they didn’t beat Michael Jordan? That makes no sense. Like the 1993 Suns were a legit 3 star team. Much like the 2015, 2016 Warriors tbh. Peak MVP Barkley, KJ and Thunder Dan? With a loaded bench.

1992 Blazers
1993 Knicks, Suns
1996 Magic, Sonics
1997 Heat, Jazz
1998 Pacers, Jazz

Blazers - 2 Finals Appearances
Jazz - 2 Finals Appearances

And these three went to the Finals after Jordan retired or before he came back and beat them

Pacers
Magic
Knicks


All were dominant teams. Without Chicago, that Jazz team is back to back champions, and considered an all-time great.

Hell, the Detroit Pistons that beat the Bulls all those years in a row, before getting curb stomped in a sweep in 1991, that team was some suspect officiating and one possession away from being a three peat team themselves. They decimated the best teams from the 80s, Magics Showtime Lakers and Birds Celtics. Like the Pistons were better than both of them.

And once Michael had a somewhat reliable star caliber player next to him, literally dog walked them … who is to say if Scottie doesn’t have his migraine in game seven in 1990, scores only two points, the Bulls could’ve beat that Blazer team that they ended up beating two years later, when that Blazers team was even better.

Hell the 2000 Pacer team that gave Shaq and Kobe more trouble than either of their finals opponents the next two years, were 2 to 3 years older than the version that 35-year-old Michael Jordan beat in seven games in 1998. Like the 1998 version of them was better than the 2000 version, they were younger, healthier, etc.

LeBron James has been swept three times in the Finals. He got gentlemen swept two other times. That is pretty pathetic.

It’s not just that he lost six finals, it’s how. It’s even how he won the four that he did. It’s all suspect.

I love when morons called the 2016 Warriors the greatest team of all time, why? You mean best regular season record of all time, by a single game? The 1996 Chicago Bulls lost three games less than two or three points, I believe, that very easily could’ve gone the opposite way. That team could’ve easily been a 75 win team , the team could’ve easily won 72 games in a similar manner in 1997. The 1998 team missed Scottie Pippen for half the season and they still won 62 games. If he’s there the whole season you could potentially add another 10 wins at least. To be fair talent wise though that 1998 season was weaker than 1996 and 1997.

Meanwhile, the 2016, Warriors should’ve lost in the conference finals if Katie Durant and Westbrick don’t choke it away and game 6 Klay doesn’t go nuclear.

I have come to the conclusion Bird, Magic, Kobe and LeBron are all the first tier beneath MJ. At any given point, I could see somebody, making a legitimate argument to place one over the other and vice versa. No disrespect to any of them but it’s just fair. All were absolute greatness defining their eras but also had flaws and total skid marks in the Finals on their resume. Jordan is absolute perfection as a basketball player and resume.

The even scarier thing is, he was retired the last two years of his prime, and didn’t feel like just playing just to play in his twilight seasons after the Dynasty Bulls were broken up. Otherwise he would have way more accumulative stats as well.

[jayfan]

Lebron will win 3 championships, 3 finals mvps, and 2 regular season mvps as a Lakers. So his Lakers career alone is better than Kobe's entire career.

:kobe:

:yaohappy:

[Baller234]

But that’s the entire crux of a dumb LeBron Stan argument.

They literally are discrediting winning in favor of losing, and using losing to uplift the loser and not winning to uplift the winning :oldlol: it’s literally lowering the bar of the standard of success of greatness.

It’s that good job, good effort from the 2014 Finals in real life. Softest fan based of all time. They literally hand out trophies for participation. Like who cares that he went to eighth straight finals, that’s not rewardable. He played in an absolutely dog shit conference, with the most amount of consolidated talent around him within the dog shit conference. Played on two super teams on two different franchises. With two perennial All-Stars and future Hall of Famers next to him in that weak ass conference, there’s no excuse he shouldn’t have been in the finals. Even the 2018 one. They lost Kyrie, but they still had the same core of the team that went to the finals the previous seasons, and Kevin Love was still a legitimate All-Star.

It is the biggest loser and excuse making mentality. LeBron has it himself, and his fans have it even worse.

So competition is only legit competition, if you lose? That makes no sense.

It would be like saying the 2023 USA team faced superior competition than the redeem team, even though the redeem team faced the absolute best version and peak Spain in the gold medal game? But they won so it’s inferior competition?

Those old Stockton and Malone Jazz spanked an utterly stacked Laker team with prime Shaq, Eddie Jones, Van Excel and young Kobe.

Jordan’s competition doesn’t count as competition or as super teams, because they didn’t beat Michael Jordan? That makes no sense. Like the 1993 Suns were a legit 3 star team. Much like the 2015, 2016 Warriors tbh. Peak MVP Barkley, KJ and Thunder Dan? With a loaded bench.

1992 Blazers
1993 Knicks, Suns
1996 Magic, Sonics
1997 Heat, Jazz
1998 Pacers, Jazz

Blazers - 2 Finals Appearances
Jazz - 2 Finals Appearances

And these three went to the Finals after Jordan retired or before he came back and beat them

Pacers
Magic
Knicks


All were dominant teams. Without Chicago, that Jazz team is back to back champions, and considered an all-time great.

Hell, the Detroit Pistons that beat the Bulls all those years in a row, before getting curb stomped in a sweep in 1991, that team was some suspect officiating and one possession away from being a three peat team themselves. They decimated the best teams from the 80s, Magics Showtime Lakers and Birds Celtics. Like the Pistons were better than both of them.

And once Michael had a somewhat reliable star caliber player next to him, literally dog walked them … who is to say if Scottie doesn’t have his migraine in game seven in 1990, scores only two points, the Bulls could’ve beat that Blazer team that they ended up beating two years later, when that Blazers team was even better.

Hell the 2000 Pacer team that gave Shaq and Kobe more trouble than either of their finals opponents the next two years, were 2 to 3 years older than the version that 35-year-old Michael Jordan beat in seven games in 1998. Like the 1998 version of them was better than the 2000 version, they were younger, healthier, etc.

LeBron James has been swept three times in the Finals. He got gentlemen swept two other times. That is pretty pathetic.

It’s not just that he lost six finals, it’s how. It’s even how he won the four that he did. It’s all suspect.

I love when morons called the 2016 Warriors the greatest team of all time, why? You mean best regular season record of all time, by a single game? The 1996 Chicago Bulls lost three games less than two or three points, I believe, that very easily could’ve gone the opposite way. That team could’ve easily been a 75 win team , the team could’ve easily won 72 games in a similar manner in 1997. The 1998 team missed Scottie Pippen for half the season and they still won 62 games. If he’s there the whole season you could potentially add another 10 wins at least. To be fair talent wise though that 1998 season was weaker than 1996 and 1997.

Meanwhile, the 2016, Warriors should’ve lost in the conference finals if Katie Durant and Westbrick don’t choke it away and game 6 Klay doesn’t go nuclear.

I have come to the conclusion Bird, Magic, Kobe and LeBron are all the first tier beneath MJ. At any given point, I could see somebody, making a legitimate argument to place one over the other and vice versa. No disrespect to any of them but it’s just fair. All were absolute greatness defining their eras but also had flaws and total skid marks in the Finals on their resume. Jordan is absolute perfection as a basketball player and resume.

The even scarier thing is, he was retired the last two years of his prime, and didn’t feel like just playing just to play in his twilight seasons after the Dynasty Bulls were broken up. Otherwise he would have way more accumulative stats as well.

https://media2.giphy.com/media/duM6JZemPlOjUyqmxd/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b9522c8yn8vl626jlknhlcmthd40juar 1hdt930rhgvw&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

[Hey Yo]

4 Gold and 6 Silver >>>>> 6 Gold

[dankok8]

But that’s the entire crux of a dumb LeBron Stan argument.

They literally are discrediting winning in favor of losing, and using losing to uplift the loser and not winning to uplift the winning :oldlol: it’s literally lowering the bar of the standard of success of greatness.

It’s that good job, good effort from the 2014 Finals in real life. Softest fan based of all time. They literally hand out trophies for participation. Like who cares that he went to eighth straight finals, that’s not rewardable. He played in an absolutely dog shit conference, with the most amount of consolidated talent around him within the dog shit conference. Played on two super teams on two different franchises. With two perennial All-Stars and future Hall of Famers next to him in that weak ass conference, there’s no excuse he shouldn’t have been in the finals. Even the 2018 one. They lost Kyrie, but they still had the same core of the team that went to the finals the previous seasons, and Kevin Love was still a legitimate All-Star.

It is the biggest loser and excuse making mentality. LeBron has it himself, and his fans have it even worse.

So competition is only legit competition, if you lose? That makes no sense.

It would be like saying the 2023 USA team faced superior competition than the redeem team, even though the redeem team faced the absolute best version and peak Spain in the gold medal game? But they won so it’s inferior competition?

Those old Stockton and Malone Jazz spanked an utterly stacked Laker team with prime Shaq, Eddie Jones, Van Excel and young Kobe.

Jordan’s competition doesn’t count as competition or as super teams, because they didn’t beat Michael Jordan? That makes no sense. Like the 1993 Suns were a legit 3 star team. Much like the 2015, 2016 Warriors tbh. Peak MVP Barkley, KJ and Thunder Dan? With a loaded bench.

1992 Blazers
1993 Knicks, Suns
1996 Magic, Sonics
1997 Heat, Jazz
1998 Pacers, Jazz

Blazers - 2 Finals Appearances
Jazz - 2 Finals Appearances

And these three went to the Finals after Jordan retired or before he came back and beat them

Pacers
Magic
Knicks


All were dominant teams. Without Chicago, that Jazz team is back to back champions, and considered an all-time great.

Hell, the Detroit Pistons that beat the Bulls all those years in a row, before getting curb stomped in a sweep in 1991, that team was some suspect officiating and one possession away from being a three peat team themselves. They decimated the best teams from the 80s, Magics Showtime Lakers and Birds Celtics. Like the Pistons were better than both of them.

And once Michael had a somewhat reliable star caliber player next to him, literally dog walked them … who is to say if Scottie doesn’t have his migraine in game seven in 1990, scores only two points, the Bulls could’ve beat that Blazer team that they ended up beating two years later, when that Blazers team was even better.

Hell the 2000 Pacer team that gave Shaq and Kobe more trouble than either of their finals opponents the next two years, were 2 to 3 years older than the version that 35-year-old Michael Jordan beat in seven games in 1998. Like the 1998 version of them was better than the 2000 version, they were younger, healthier, etc.

LeBron James has been swept three times in the Finals. He got gentlemen swept two other times. That is pretty pathetic.

It’s not just that he lost six finals, it’s how. It’s even how he won the four that he did. It’s all suspect.

I love when morons called the 2016 Warriors the greatest team of all time, why? You mean best regular season record of all time, by a single game? The 1996 Chicago Bulls lost three games less than two or three points, I believe, that very easily could’ve gone the opposite way. That team could’ve easily been a 75 win team , the team could’ve easily won 72 games in a similar manner in 1997. The 1998 team missed Scottie Pippen for half the season and they still won 62 games. If he’s there the whole season you could potentially add another 10 wins at least. To be fair talent wise though that 1998 season was weaker than 1996 and 1997.

Meanwhile, the 2016, Warriors should’ve lost in the conference finals if Katie Durant and Westbrick don’t choke it away and game 6 Klay doesn’t go nuclear.

I have come to the conclusion Bird, Magic, Kobe and LeBron are all the first tier beneath MJ. At any given point, I could see somebody, making a legitimate argument to place one over the other and vice versa. No disrespect to any of them but it’s just fair. All were absolute greatness defining their eras but also had flaws and total skid marks in the Finals on their resume. Jordan is absolute perfection as a basketball player and resume.

The even scarier thing is, he was retired the last two years of his prime, and didn’t feel like just playing just to play in his twilight seasons after the Dynasty Bulls were broken up. Otherwise he would have way more accumulative stats as well.

Good post.

Lebron stans don't have a choice but to shift goalposts when their GOAT played 7 more seasons but has 2 fewer rings. They have to find excuses to justify all the losses year after year. I don't blame them. That's what I would do if I was arguing Lebron as GOAT.

[WhiteKyrie]

The 2017 and 2018 Warriors are better than any team Mike faced, maybe. Thats it. And even then I’m not confident because the 1996 Magic led by Shaq and Penny is very similar from a talent perspective. Bron not having Kyrie for help in 2018 is his own fault for pushing him out the door

[red1]

But that’s the entire crux of a dumb LeBron Stan argument.

They literally are discrediting winning in favor of losing, and using losing to uplift the loser and not winning to uplift the winning :oldlol: it’s literally lowering the bar of the standard of success of greatness.

It’s that good job, good effort from the 2014 Finals in real life. Softest fan based of all time. They literally hand out trophies for participation. Like who cares that he went to eighth straight finals, that’s not rewardable. He played in an absolutely dog shit conference, with the most amount of consolidated talent around him within the dog shit conference. Played on two super teams on two different franchises. With two perennial All-Stars and future Hall of Famers next to him in that weak ass conference, there’s no excuse he shouldn’t have been in the finals. Even the 2018 one. They lost Kyrie, but they still had the same core of the team that went to the finals the previous seasons, and Kevin Love was still a legitimate All-Star.

It is the biggest loser and excuse making mentality. LeBron has it himself, and his fans have it even worse.

So competition is only legit competition, if you lose? That makes no sense.

It would be like saying the 2023 USA team faced superior competition than the redeem team, even though the redeem team faced the absolute best version and peak Spain in the gold medal game? But they won so it’s inferior competition?

Those old Stockton and Malone Jazz spanked an utterly stacked Laker team with prime Shaq, Eddie Jones, Van Excel and young Kobe.

Jordan’s competition doesn’t count as competition or as super teams, because they didn’t beat Michael Jordan? That makes no sense. Like the 1993 Suns were a legit 3 star team. Much like the 2015, 2016 Warriors tbh. Peak MVP Barkley, KJ and Thunder Dan? With a loaded bench.

1992 Blazers
1993 Knicks, Suns
1996 Magic, Sonics
1997 Heat, Jazz
1998 Pacers, Jazz

Blazers - 2 Finals Appearances
Jazz - 2 Finals Appearances

And these three went to the Finals after Jordan retired or before he came back and beat them

Pacers
Magic
Knicks


All were dominant teams. Without Chicago, that Jazz team is back to back champions, and considered an all-time great.

Hell, the Detroit Pistons that beat the Bulls all those years in a row, before getting curb stomped in a sweep in 1991, that team was some suspect officiating and one possession away from being a three peat team themselves. They decimated the best teams from the 80s, Magics Showtime Lakers and Birds Celtics. Like the Pistons were better than both of them.

And once Michael had a somewhat reliable star caliber player next to him, literally dog walked them … who is to say if Scottie doesn’t have his migraine in game seven in 1990, scores only two points, the Bulls could’ve beat that Blazer team that they ended up beating two years later, when that Blazers team was even better.

Hell the 2000 Pacer team that gave Shaq and Kobe more trouble than either of their finals opponents the next two years, were 2 to 3 years older than the version that 35-year-old Michael Jordan beat in seven games in 1998. Like the 1998 version of them was better than the 2000 version, they were younger, healthier, etc.

LeBron James has been swept three times in the Finals. He got gentlemen swept two other times. That is pretty pathetic.

It’s not just that he lost six finals, it’s how. It’s even how he won the four that he did. It’s all suspect.

I love when morons called the 2016 Warriors the greatest team of all time, why? You mean best regular season record of all time, by a single game? The 1996 Chicago Bulls lost three games less than two or three points, I believe, that very easily could’ve gone the opposite way. That team could’ve easily been a 75 win team , the team could’ve easily won 72 games in a similar manner in 1997. The 1998 team missed Scottie Pippen for half the season and they still won 62 games. If he’s there the whole season you could potentially add another 10 wins at least. To be fair talent wise though that 1998 season was weaker than 1996 and 1997.

Meanwhile, the 2016, Warriors should’ve lost in the conference finals if Katie Durant and Westbrick don’t choke it away and game 6 Klay doesn’t go nuclear.

I have come to the conclusion Bird, Magic, Kobe and LeBron are all the first tier beneath MJ. At any given point, I could see somebody, making a legitimate argument to place one over the other and vice versa. No disrespect to any of them but it’s just fair. All were absolute greatness defining their eras but also had flaws and total skid marks in the Finals on their resume. Jordan is absolute perfection as a basketball player and resume.

The even scarier thing is, he was retired the last two years of his prime, and didn’t feel like just playing just to play in his twilight seasons after the Dynasty Bulls were broken up. Otherwise he would have way more accumulative stats as well.

we just care about who was better


2018 lebron was better than every version of kobe

[RRR3]

Dankok claims he’s not biased against LeBron but then agrees with posts from coach and 3ball. :yaohappy:

[WhiteKyrie]

we just care about who was better


2018 lebron was better than every version of kobe

I can see that argument.

But, if we are taking Finals competition into account, we can’t ignore in conference competition faced. The 2018 East he faced in the playoffs to put up those numbers was total dogshit. He wasn’t the defender he was from 2009 - 2014. So, he was the most refined offensive skill wise that year but faced vastly inferior in conference comp to anything Kobe faced in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 … and like we said Bron didn’t play defense by then. So it’s def not that cut and dry.

Bird / Magic / LeBron / Kobe all same tier.

[red1]

best player 7 years in a row in the finals counts for something (2012-2018).

if you add 2020 thats the best player 8 out of 10 finals runs. so best player in the nba finals every year outside of his first two finals runs in 07 and 11. you could argue kawhi 2014 or kd 2017 but I'd take lebron each of those years. the other years aren't debateable.

[red1]

I can see that argument.

But, if we are taking Finals competition into account, we can’t ignore in conference competition faced. The 2018 East he faced in the playoffs to put up those numbers was total dogshit. He wasn’t the defender he was from 2009 - 2014. So, he was the most refined offensive skill wise that year but faced vastly inferior in conference comp to anything Kobe faced in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 … and like we said Bron didn’t play defense by then. So it’s def not that cut and dry.

Bird / Magic / LeBron / Kobe all same tier.

thats not an insult because that's GOAT tier



2012 best player regular season playoffs and finals
2013 best player regular season playoffs and finals
2014 best player regular season playoffs and finals
2015 best player regular season playoffs and finals
2016 best player regular season playoffs and finals
2017 best player regular season playoffs and finals
2018 best player regular season playoffs and finals

2020 best player regular season playoffs and finals


was already the nba MVP and a GOAT level player in 2009 after coming back from the 2008 olympics and training with the best players in the world all summer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd4nr9TURt4&t=512s&ab_channel=HouseofHighlights

[dankok8]

Dankok claims he’s not biased against LeBron but then agrees with posts from coach and 3ball. :yaohappy:

Where did I agree with 3ball? And who's coach...

[WhiteKyrie]

thats not an insult because that's GOAT tier



2012 best player regular season playoffs and finals
2013 best player regular season playoffs and finals
2014 best player regular season playoffs and finals
2015 best player regular season playoffs and finals
2016 best player regular season playoffs and finals
2017 best player regular season playoffs and finals
2018 best player regular season playoffs and finals

2020 best player regular season playoffs and finals


was already the nba MVP and a GOAT level player in 2009 after coming back from the 2008 olympics and training with the best players in the world all summer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd4nr9TURt4&t=512s&ab_channel=HouseofHighlights

It’s not meant to be an insult whatsoever :oldlol: those guys all have legit arguments for that second best ever mantle. That’s why I have them all on that tier

[red1]

lebron was the underdog in 7/10 NBA finals, he played dynasties in the spurs and warriors a combined 7 times and his teams had a few injury-prone superstars in wade and kyrie, both being 100% could've made the difference against those dynasties in 2014 and 2015 respectively

https://www.tsn.ca/being-the-underdog-is-not-uncommon-for-lebron-in-the-nba-finals-1.1097756


when all teams were completely healthy he is 2-0 against those dynasties in game 7s


you cant knock him for 2015 when kyrie and love went down or 2014 when the heat and mostly d-GOAT were running out of steam. bron was still bionic man and was the only one who was ready to play that series.

[red1]

It’s not meant to be an insult whatsoever :oldlol: those guys all have legit arguments for that second best ever mantle. That’s why I have them all on that tier

at the end of the day it wont even be a debate


lebron has 4 finals MVPs and the most points of all-time - thats more finals MVPs than bird magic or kobe


2nd GOAT status has long been secured. now we're tearing down the legacy of baldan.

[red1]

2 NBA finals runs wasted playing the most stacked team of all-time in the 2017 warriors and 2018 warriors
2 NBA finals runs dealing with injuries or a team running out of gas in 2014 and 2015 - not trying to take anything away from the spurs or warriors but the 14 heat needed healthy superstar dwade to even have a chance against those spurs and the 15 cavs needed kyrie or love, at least one of the two

still came out with 4 rings. easily could've ran up 5 or 6 rings.


not a bad outcome. the other accolades will make the GOAT case. :applause:

[8Ball]

But that’s the entire crux of a dumb LeBron Stan argument.

They literally are discrediting winning in favor of losing, and using losing to uplift the loser and not winning to uplift the winning :oldlol: it’s literally lowering the bar of the standard of success of greatness.

It’s that good job, good effort from the 2014 Finals in real life. Softest fan based of all time. They literally hand out trophies for participation. Like who cares that he went to eighth straight finals, that’s not rewardable. He played in an absolutely dog shit conference, with the most amount of consolidated talent around him within the dog shit conference. Played on two super teams on two different franchises. With two perennial All-Stars and future Hall of Famers next to him in that weak ass conference, there’s no excuse he shouldn’t have been in the finals. Even the 2018 one. They lost Kyrie, but they still had the same core of the team that went to the finals the previous seasons, and Kevin Love was still a legitimate All-Star.

It is the biggest loser and excuse making mentality. LeBron has it himself, and his fans have it even worse.

So competition is only legit competition, if you lose? That makes no sense.

It would be like saying the 2023 USA team faced superior competition than the redeem team, even though the redeem team faced the absolute best version and peak Spain in the gold medal game? But they won so it’s inferior competition?

Those old Stockton and Malone Jazz spanked an utterly stacked Laker team with prime Shaq, Eddie Jones, Van Excel and young Kobe.

Jordan’s competition doesn’t count as competition or as super teams, because they didn’t beat Michael Jordan? That makes no sense. Like the 1993 Suns were a legit 3 star team. Much like the 2015, 2016 Warriors tbh. Peak MVP Barkley, KJ and Thunder Dan? With a loaded bench.

1992 Blazers
1993 Knicks, Suns
1996 Magic, Sonics
1997 Heat, Jazz
1998 Pacers, Jazz

Blazers - 2 Finals Appearances
Jazz - 2 Finals Appearances

And these three went to the Finals after Jordan retired or before he came back and beat them

Pacers
Magic
Knicks


All were dominant teams. Without Chicago, that Jazz team is back to back champions, and considered an all-time great.

Hell, the Detroit Pistons that beat the Bulls all those years in a row, before getting curb stomped in a sweep in 1991, that team was some suspect officiating and one possession away from being a three peat team themselves. They decimated the best teams from the 80s, Magics Showtime Lakers and Birds Celtics. Like the Pistons were better than both of them.

And once Michael had a somewhat reliable star caliber player next to him, literally dog walked them … who is to say if Scottie doesn’t have his migraine in game seven in 1990, scores only two points, the Bulls could’ve beat that Blazer team that they ended up beating two years later, when that Blazers team was even better.

Hell the 2000 Pacer team that gave Shaq and Kobe more trouble than either of their finals opponents the next two years, were 2 to 3 years older than the version that 35-year-old Michael Jordan beat in seven games in 1998. Like the 1998 version of them was better than the 2000 version, they were younger, healthier, etc.

LeBron James has been swept three times in the Finals. He got gentlemen swept two other times. That is pretty pathetic.

It’s not just that he lost six finals, it’s how. It’s even how he won the four that he did. It’s all suspect.

I love when morons called the 2016 Warriors the greatest team of all time, why? You mean best regular season record of all time, by a single game? The 1996 Chicago Bulls lost three games less than two or three points, I believe, that very easily could’ve gone the opposite way. That team could’ve easily been a 75 win team , the team could’ve easily won 72 games in a similar manner in 1997. The 1998 team missed Scottie Pippen for half the season and they still won 62 games. If he’s there the whole season you could potentially add another 10 wins at least. To be fair talent wise though that 1998 season was weaker than 1996 and 1997.

Meanwhile, the 2016, Warriors should’ve lost in the conference finals if Katie Durant and Westbrick don’t choke it away and game 6 Klay doesn’t go nuclear.

I have come to the conclusion Bird, Magic, Kobe and LeBron are all the first tier beneath MJ. At any given point, I could see somebody, making a legitimate argument to place one over the other and vice versa. No disrespect to any of them but it’s just fair. All were absolute greatness defining their eras but also had flaws and total skid marks in the Finals on their resume. Jordan is absolute perfection as a basketball player and resume.

The even scarier thing is, he was retired the last two years of his prime, and didn’t feel like just playing just to play in his twilight seasons after the Dynasty Bulls were broken up. Otherwise he would have way more accumulative stats as well.

Jordan stan argument:

6 rings > 4 rings however at the same time 6 Jordan rings > 11 Russell rings.


When you actually compare players, LeBron has surpassed Jordan.

[8Ball]

Good post.

Lebron stans don't have a choice but to shift goalposts when their GOAT played 7 more seasons but has 2 fewer rings. They have to find excuses to justify all the losses year after year. I don't blame them. That's what I would do if I was arguing Lebron as GOAT.

Garbage post but of course you agree with it.

All Jordan has left are team accomplishments. Rings.

Jordan's 6 rings are worth more than LeBron's 4 and somehow and someway Jordan's 6 rings are worth more than Russell 11.


You guys keep arguing rings and wonder why the arguments don't work.

[RRR3]

Bird, Magic and Kobe have zero argument for 2nd all time. Low IQ coach at it again.

[WhiteKyrie]

Jordan stan argument:

6 rings > 4 rings however at the same time 6 Jordan rings > 11 Russell rings.

It’s not just a ring argument? That plays a big majority of it. Michael was the best player on both sides of the floor, for both teams. There is also MVPs, Finals MVPs, peak season, career averages, all defensive teams etc. LeBron doesn’t match up with rings or those accomplishments or numbers. Love Bill Russell, but he wasn’t the best player on offense for the vast majority of his seasons in Boston.

[RRR3]

Garbage post but of course you agree with it.

All Jordan has left are team accomplishments. Rings.

Jordan's 6 rings are worth more than LeBron's 4 and somehow and someway Jordan's 6 rings are worth more than Russell 11.

This is why Jordan fans are getting increasingly upset.
Kareem also has 6 rings which they'll never acknowledge. I think MJ is the GOAT but I rarely hear good arguments as to why he is.

[red1]

Jordan stan argument:

6 rings > 4 rings however at the same time 6 Jordan rings > 11 Russell rings.

we dont listen to baldan stans anymore

steve kerr settled the debate - jordan and lebron are on the same tier

1a 1b - that was said after kerr swept lebron in 2018, and was before lebron won his 4th ring and broke the all-time scoring record


35 year old lebron in 2020 led the league in assists :oldlol:



steve kerr saying lebron and jordan are 1a -1b - this is a former jordan teammate:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MG8wjJNdf4&ab_channel=ESPN

[red1]

Jordan stan argument:

6 rings > 4 rings however at the same time 6 Jordan rings > 11 Russell rings.


When you actually compare players, LeBron has surpassed Jordan.

https://i.postimg.cc/k5pXdN5h/Rivalry-Decade.jpg

[8Ball]

It’s not just a ring argument? That plays a big majority of it. Michael was the best player on both sides of the floor, for both teams. There is also MVPs, Finals MVPs, peak season, career averages, all defensive teams etc. LeBron doesn’t match up with rings or those accomplishments or numbers. Love Bill Russell, but he wasn’t the best player on offense for the vast majority of his seasons in Boston.

Best player on both sides of the floor for both teams.... Hmmm. Bran was the best player on both sides for these finals 2012 - 2013 - 2014 - 2015 - 2016 - 2017 - 2018 - 2020. Draymond Green even admits in his podcast for 2017 and 2018.

All-nba teams - Bran has 19 of them.

Longevity - Bron is going into year 21 and still "expected" to make an all-nba team.

Peak Seasons - Bron has a mountain of them too.

What about scoring? - Bron holds the all time scoring title averaging 27ppg for his career with 19 seasons of minimum 25ppg.

Oh yeah he's also top 4 in assists.

[red1]

But that’s the entire crux of a dumb LeBron Stan argument.

They literally are discrediting winning in favor of losing, and using losing to uplift the loser and not winning to uplift the winning :oldlol: it’s literally lowering the bar of the standard of success of greatness.

It’s that good job, good effort from the 2014 Finals in real life. Softest fan based of all time. They literally hand out trophies for participation. Like who cares that he went to eighth straight finals, that’s not rewardable. He played in an absolutely dog shit conference, with the most amount of consolidated talent around him within the dog shit conference. Played on two super teams on two different franchises. With two perennial All-Stars and future Hall of Famers next to him in that weak ass conference, there’s no excuse he shouldn’t have been in the finals. Even the 2018 one. They lost Kyrie, but they still had the same core of the team that went to the finals the previous seasons, and Kevin Love was still a legitimate All-Star.

It is the biggest loser and excuse making mentality. LeBron has it himself, and his fans have it even worse.

So competition is only legit competition, if you lose? That makes no sense.

It would be like saying the 2023 USA team faced superior competition than the redeem team, even though the redeem team faced the absolute best version and peak Spain in the gold medal game? But they won so it’s inferior competition?

Those old Stockton and Malone Jazz spanked an utterly stacked Laker team with prime Shaq, Eddie Jones, Van Excel and young Kobe.

Jordan’s competition doesn’t count as competition or as super teams, because they didn’t beat Michael Jordan? That makes no sense. Like the 1993 Suns were a legit 3 star team. Much like the 2015, 2016 Warriors tbh. Peak MVP Barkley, KJ and Thunder Dan? With a loaded bench.

1992 Blazers
1993 Knicks, Suns
1996 Magic, Sonics
1997 Heat, Jazz
1998 Pacers, Jazz

Blazers - 2 Finals Appearances
Jazz - 2 Finals Appearances

And these three went to the Finals after Jordan retired or before he came back and beat them

Pacers
Magic
Knicks


All were dominant teams. Without Chicago, that Jazz team is back to back champions, and considered an all-time great.

Hell, the Detroit Pistons that beat the Bulls all those years in a row, before getting curb stomped in a sweep in 1991, that team was some suspect officiating and one possession away from being a three peat team themselves. They decimated the best teams from the 80s, Magics Showtime Lakers and Birds Celtics. Like the Pistons were better than both of them.

And once Michael had a somewhat reliable star caliber player next to him, literally dog walked them … who is to say if Scottie doesn’t have his migraine in game seven in 1990, scores only two points, the Bulls could’ve beat that Blazer team that they ended up beating two years later, when that Blazers team was even better.

Hell the 2000 Pacer team that gave Shaq and Kobe more trouble than either of their finals opponents the next two years, were 2 to 3 years older than the version that 35-year-old Michael Jordan beat in seven games in 1998. Like the 1998 version of them was better than the 2000 version, they were younger, healthier, etc.

LeBron James has been swept three times in the Finals. He got gentlemen swept two other times. That is pretty pathetic.

It’s not just that he lost six finals, it’s how. It’s even how he won the four that he did. It’s all suspect.

I love when morons called the 2016 Warriors the greatest team of all time, why? You mean best regular season record of all time, by a single game? The 1996 Chicago Bulls lost three games less than two or three points, I believe, that very easily could’ve gone the opposite way. That team could’ve easily been a 75 win team , the team could’ve easily won 72 games in a similar manner in 1997. The 1998 team missed Scottie Pippen for half the season and they still won 62 games. If he’s there the whole season you could potentially add another 10 wins at least. To be fair talent wise though that 1998 season was weaker than 1996 and 1997.

Meanwhile, the 2016, Warriors should’ve lost in the conference finals if Katie Durant and Westbrick don’t choke it away and game 6 Klay doesn’t go nuclear.

I have come to the conclusion Bird, Magic, Kobe and LeBron are all the first tier beneath MJ. At any given point, I could see somebody, making a legitimate argument to place one over the other and vice versa. No disrespect to any of them but it’s just fair. All were absolute greatness defining their eras but also had flaws and total skid marks in the Finals on their resume. Jordan is absolute perfection as a basketball player and resume.

The even scarier thing is, he was retired the last two years of his prime, and didn’t feel like just playing just to play in his twilight seasons after the Dynasty Bulls were broken up. Otherwise he would have way more accumulative stats as well.

I dont want to read about jordan fans talking about competition


meanwhile pippen aka the best perimeter defender in the world is on jordan's own team:

https://i.pinimg.com/474x/ab/6b/c4/ab6bc4db8bba391cedc05921807e4537.jpg

[8Ball]

Kareem also has 6 rings which they'll never acknowledge. I think MJ is the GOAT but I rarely hear good arguments as to why he is.

Why would you think this besides nostalgia?

[dankok8]

Garbage post but of course you agree with it.

All Jordan has left are team accomplishments. Rings.

Jordan's 6 rings are worth more than LeBron's 4 and somehow and someway Jordan's 6 rings are worth more than Russell 11.


You guys keep arguing rings and wonder why the arguments don't work.

Jordan peaked higher than Lebron by pretty much every reputable box score or impact metric.

Jordan > Lebron in all of the following peak/prime metrics:

Basic Stats
BPM
AuPM
Playoff Plus Minus
WOWYR
RAPTOR WAR
CORP (especially factoring scalability)

And from a team perspective Jordan led better offenses than Lebron despite less offensive talent. And of course led way better (not even close) defenses albeit with more defensive talent I admit.

The only argument for Lebron is longevity. Would I take 20 years of Lebron over 13 years of Jordan in some sort of career value argument? Maybe but that still ignores winning. Lebron had more years and still couldn't win as much as Jordan let alone more as he should if he's Jordan's equal.

[red1]

Jordan peaked higher than Lebron by pretty much every reputable box score or impact metric.

Jordan > Lebron in all of the following peak metrics:

Basic Stats
BPM
AuPM
Playoff Plus Minus
WOWYR
RAPTOR WAR
CORP (especially factoring scalability)

And from a team perspective Jordan led better offenses than Lebron despite less offensive talent. And of course led way better (not even close) defenses albeit with more defensive talent I admit.

The only argument for Lebron is longevity. Would I take 20 years of Lebron over 13 years of Jordan in some sort of career value argument? Maybe but that still ignores winning. Lebron had more years and still couldn't win as much as Jordan let alone more as he should if he's Jordan's equal.

we dont go by stats we go by the eye-test.


baldan was the best player of his era. no debate there.


leGOAT is the best player all eras.


thats all Im saying.

[StrongLurk]

Seems the consensus by a wide margin in MJ>Lebron>Kobe.

MJ is really in a tier by himself. Tier 2 you have Lebron, Kareem. Tier 3 is Magic, Shaq, Kobe. Tier 4 is Bird, Duncan, Wilt/Bill.

Kobe stans really have the worse arguments though. Yeah some of the Lebron stans have bad arguments too, but they can still rely on facts that show Lebron > Kobe.

That's what is so annoying about MJ stans. They aren't "smarter" or "better" stans and they have a lot of bad arguments too, but ultimately they have the easiest "GOAT argument" to make with MJ.

[SouBeachTalents]

Seems the consensus by a wide margin in MJ>Lebron>Kobe.

MJ is really in a tier by himself. Tier 2 you have Lebron, Kareem. Tier 3 is Magic, Shaq, Kobe. Tier 4 is Bird, Duncan, Wilt/Bill.

Kobe stans really have the worse arguments though. Yeah some of the Lebron stans have bad arguments too, but they can still rely on facts that show Lebron > Kobe.

That's what is so annoying about MJ stans. They aren't "smarter" or "better" stans and they have a lot of bad arguments too, but ultimately they have the easiest "GOAT argument" to make with MJ.
Kobe a tier above those dudes? Lol :lol He also has absolutely ZERO argument for 2nd best of all time like coach tried to claim.

[WhiteKyrie]

Kobe a tier above those dudes? Lol :lol He also has absolutely ZERO argument for 2nd best of all time like coach tried to claim.

Why?

[Baller234]

I dont want to read about jordan fans talking about competition

https://i.pinimg.com/474x/ab/6b/c4/ab6bc4db8bba391cedc05921807e4537.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYsPdLzXkAYsdIp.jpg:large

[red1]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYsPdLzXkAYsdIp.jpg:large

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/20120721_John_W._Rogers%2C_Jr.JPG/640px-20120721_John_W._Rogers%2C_Jr.JPG

[Axe]

But that’s the entire crux of a dumb LeBron Stan argument.

They literally are discrediting winning in favor of losing, and using losing to uplift the loser and not winning to uplift the winning :oldlol: it’s literally lowering the bar of the standard of success of greatness.

It’s that good job, good effort from the 2014 Finals in real life. Softest fan based of all time. They literally hand out trophies for participation. Like who cares that he went to eighth straight finals, that’s not rewardable. He played in an absolutely dog shit conference, with the most amount of consolidated talent around him within the dog shit conference. Played on two super teams on two different franchises. With two perennial All-Stars and future Hall of Famers next to him in that weak ass conference, there’s no excuse he shouldn’t have been in the finals. Even the 2018 one. They lost Kyrie, but they still had the same core of the team that went to the finals the previous seasons, and Kevin Love was still a legitimate All-Star.

It is the biggest loser and excuse making mentality. LeBron has it himself, and his fans have it even worse.

So competition is only legit competition, if you lose? That makes no sense.

It would be like saying the 2023 USA team faced superior competition than the redeem team, even though the redeem team faced the absolute best version and peak Spain in the gold medal game? But they won so it’s inferior competition?

Those old Stockton and Malone Jazz spanked an utterly stacked Laker team with prime Shaq, Eddie Jones, Van Excel and young Kobe.

Jordan’s competition doesn’t count as competition or as super teams, because they didn’t beat Michael Jordan? That makes no sense. Like the 1993 Suns were a legit 3 star team. Much like the 2015, 2016 Warriors tbh. Peak MVP Barkley, KJ and Thunder Dan? With a loaded bench.

1992 Blazers
1993 Knicks, Suns
1996 Magic, Sonics
1997 Heat, Jazz
1998 Pacers, Jazz

Blazers - 2 Finals Appearances
Jazz - 2 Finals Appearances

And these three went to the Finals after Jordan retired or before he came back and beat them

Pacers
Magic
Knicks


All were dominant teams. Without Chicago, that Jazz team is back to back champions, and considered an all-time great.

Hell, the Detroit Pistons that beat the Bulls all those years in a row, before getting curb stomped in a sweep in 1991, that team was some suspect officiating and one possession away from being a three peat team themselves. They decimated the best teams from the 80s, Magics Showtime Lakers and Birds Celtics. Like the Pistons were better than both of them.

And once Michael had a somewhat reliable star caliber player next to him, literally dog walked them … who is to say if Scottie doesn’t have his migraine in game seven in 1990, scores only two points, the Bulls could’ve beat that Blazer team that they ended up beating two years later, when that Blazers team was even better.

Hell the 2000 Pacer team that gave Shaq and Kobe more trouble than either of their finals opponents the next two years, were 2 to 3 years older than the version that 35-year-old Michael Jordan beat in seven games in 1998. Like the 1998 version of them was better than the 2000 version, they were younger, healthier, etc.

LeBron James has been swept three times in the Finals. He got gentlemen swept two other times. That is pretty pathetic.

It’s not just that he lost six finals, it’s how. It’s even how he won the four that he did. It’s all suspect.

I love when morons called the 2016 Warriors the greatest team of all time, why? You mean best regular season record of all time, by a single game? The 1996 Chicago Bulls lost three games less than two or three points, I believe, that very easily could’ve gone the opposite way. That team could’ve easily been a 75 win team , the team could’ve easily won 72 games in a similar manner in 1997. The 1998 team missed Scottie Pippen for half the season and they still won 62 games. If he’s there the whole season you could potentially add another 10 wins at least. To be fair talent wise though that 1998 season was weaker than 1996 and 1997.

Meanwhile, the 2016, Warriors should’ve lost in the conference finals if Katie Durant and Westbrick don’t choke it away and game 6 Klay doesn’t go nuclear.

I have come to the conclusion Bird, Magic, Kobe and LeBron are all the first tier beneath MJ. At any given point, I could see somebody, making a legitimate argument to place one over the other and vice versa. No disrespect to any of them but it’s just fair. All were absolute greatness defining their eras but also had flaws and total skid marks in the Finals on their resume. Jordan is absolute perfection as a basketball player and resume.

The even scarier thing is, he was retired the last two years of his prime, and didn’t feel like just playing just to play in his twilight seasons after the Dynasty Bulls were broken up. Otherwise he would have way more accumulative stats as well.
Dumb.

[SaltyMeatballs]

Seems the consensus by a wide margin in MJ>Lebron>Kobe.

MJ is really in a tier by himself. Tier 2 you have Lebron, Kareem. Tier 3 is Magic, Shaq, Kobe. Tier 4 is Bird, Duncan, Wilt/Bill.

Kobe stans really have the worse arguments though. Yeah some of the Lebron stans have bad arguments too, but they can still rely on facts that show Lebron > Kobe.

That's what is so annoying about MJ stans. They aren't "smarter" or "better" stans and they have a lot of bad arguments too, but ultimately they have the easiest "GOAT argument" to make with MJ.

As far as ATG tiers go, here's how I'd rank mine

Tier 1: MJ, LeBron
Tier 2: Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bird
Tier 3: Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, Bill, Hakeem, Curry, KD
Tier 4: Oscar, KG, Dirk, Barkley, West, Wade, M. Malone, K. Malone, Erving, D-Rob, Jokic, Giannis etc

[WhiteKyrie]

Why does Kareem belong with Magic, Bird, and yes Kobe / LeBron? He wasn’t the best player on the vast majority of his championships and needed a Mount Rushmore (Magic) and top 15 ever (Oscar) from rookie forward Magic was the winner and culture setter for that team. Kareem was an odd duck. A social outcast dick head weirdo who put up numbers but didn’t care about cultivating winning basketball

[StrongLurk]

Why does Kareem belong with Magic, Bird, and yes Kobe / LeBron? He wasn’t the best player on the vast majority of his championships and needed a Mount Rushmore (Magic) and top 15 ever (Oscar) from rookie forward Magic was the winner and culture setter for that team. Kareem was an odd duck. A social outcast dick head weirdo who put up numbers but didn’t care about cultivating winning basketball

It's true that Kareem had two all time great ball handlers. Why do you think he wasn't the best player for the "vast" majority of his rings? I disagree there. Also you can make the same damn argument that Kobe was not the best player for 3 of his 5 rings. Bird also had plenty of sub-par playoff runs that are swept under the rug. Magic is in a similar boat to Kobe here too.

Kareem has 6 MVPS, 6 rings, 2 FMVP (should clearly be 3), was the all time scoring leader (now second behind Lebron), 3rd all time in rebounds, 3rd all time in blocks, most assists for a center, was an elite defensive player for a decade. What other players have this combination of career achievements, individual stats, plus insane peak/longevity? Maybe Lebron?

Kareem's biggest problem is that he played in an "inferior" NBA. That's the biggest knock against him, but that wasn't in his control. It's so damn obvious eye test wise that Kareem's talent/size was insane and he'd be extremely dominant in any era.

[Baller234]

Why does Kareem belong with Magic, Bird, and yes Kobe / LeBron? He wasn’t the best player on the vast majority of his championships and needed a Mount Rushmore (Magic) and top 15 ever (Oscar) from rookie forward Magic was the winner and culture setter for that team. Kareem was an odd duck. A social outcast dick head weirdo who put up numbers but didn’t care about cultivating winning basketball

i'm with you.

kareem's legacy is mainly boosted by his high school and college career where he dominated like no other player in history. he was really the first lebron type prospect. the chosen one so to speak.

but in the grand scheme of things i think he gets overrated. he's still an all time pantheon guy and he was the best player for the entire decade of the 70's, but without magic kareem probably retires without ever winning again. magic without kareem on the other hand is still probably winning at least a few.

so for that reason i can't put kareem over magic, which by default means i can't put him over bird. if i can't put him over magic and bird, i probably can't put him over kobe and lebron either.

he's on the tier right below them.

[8Ball]

Jordan peaked higher than Lebron by pretty much every reputable box score or impact metric.

Jordan > Lebron in all of the following peak/prime metrics:

Basic Stats
BPM
AuPM
Playoff Plus Minus
WOWYR
RAPTOR WAR
CORP (especially factoring scalability)

Not 1 NBA team uses these bolded stats in evaluating players yet you think it matters. RAPTOR even had Derozan as a top player at one point.

In terms of basic stats, LeBron matches or even surpasses Jordan on that.



And from a team perspective Jordan led better offenses than Lebron despite less offensive talent. And of course led way better (not even close) defenses albeit with more defensive talent I admit.

The only argument for Lebron is longevity. Would I take 20 years of Lebron over 13 years of Jordan in some sort of career value argument? Maybe but that still ignores winning. Lebron had more years and still couldn't win as much as Jordan let alone more as he should if he's Jordan's equal.

Team perspective takes into account 14 other players on the roster while only comparing 1.

[8Ball]

we dont go by stats we go by the eye-test.


baldan was the best player of his era. no debate there.


leGOAT is the best player all eras.


thats all Im saying.

Problem with being a stat nerd is that you tend to ignore actual game footage.

For example dankok went back and analyzed Shaq statistically in big playoff series without watching the games. If he had watched Game 7 portland, a game he criticized Shaq for, he would have realized the best shots the Lakers were able to produce in the 4th quarter all came from initiating the offence through Shaq. The moment Shaq was thrown the ball, the defence would collapse on Shaq. Which one of his stats measures that? None.

[dankok8]

Not 1 NBA team uses these bolded stats in evaluating players yet you think it matters. RAPTOR even had Derozan as a top player at one point.

In terms of basic stats, LeBron matches or even surpasses Jordan on that.



How do you know what NBA teams use? Actually you're wrong. A lot of these metrics were produced for NBA teams.

Show me how Lebron matches him in basic stats... Lebron never consistently matches Jordan's scoring volume (~5 ppg less) and puts up similar assist numbers with more turnovers. In terms of Ben Taylor's four offensive dimensions, Jordan has large leads in scoring rate and turnover rate and they are pretty even in scoring efficiency and box creation.


Team perspective takes into account 14 other players on the roster while only comparing 1.

Yep but the Bulls being better offensively than any of Lebron's teams despite having less offensive talent speaks volumes.

[Axe]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/20120721_John_W._Rogers%2C_Jr.JPG/640px-20120721_John_W._Rogers%2C_Jr.JPG
:lol

[Full Court]

8ball:

"hey come on cut lebron a break, he lost to a warriors team that went onto win 73 games the following year..."

also 8ball:

"you can't compare the same team from two different years, they weren't the same team..."

:roll:

[kawhileonard2]

Lebron has better stats in reg, playoffs, and finals, more MVPS, more FMVPs, more everything.

Even Kobe's ring argument is invalid since his 2000 is trash compared to all time great "rings" - dude got annihilated by Jalen Rose and Reggie Miller, and was even outscored by Austin Croshere :oldlol:

Kobe stans need to stop being so convoluted/desperate and accept that Kobe will always be in the back half of the top ten while Lebron is cemented as the second best all time after MJ.

Kobe won more and didn't stack the deck or switch teams.

[aj1987]

But that’s the entire crux of a dumb LeBron Stan argument.

They literally are discrediting winning in favor of losing, and using losing to uplift the loser and not winning to uplift the winning :oldlol: it’s literally lowering the bar of the standard of success of greatness.
Don't really need to go past this for this post. You retards are the ones who cry about LeBron losing in the Finals and not earlier. Do you even comprehend that, "coach"?

[Full Court]

Don't really need to go past this for this post. You retards are the ones who cry about LeBron losing in the Finals and not earlier. Do you even comprehend that, "coach"?

Wow. What a fuming biatch.


:roll:

[BlackMamba8]

Don't really need to go past this for this post. You retards are the ones who cry about LeBron losing in the Finals and not earlier. Do you even comprehend that, "coach"?

I feel bad for anything that associates themselves with someone as brainless as you. SMH

[SATAN]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/20120721_John_W._Rogers%2C_Jr.JPG/640px-20120721_John_W._Rogers%2C_Jr.JPG

https://media1.tenor.com/m/mW38fLs0y14AAAAC/spit-laugh.gif

[aj1987]

I feel bad for anything that associates themselves with someone as brainless as you. SMH

I feel bad for anything that associated themselves with someone who's a midget and has bitch tits.


Wow. Im a fuming biatch.


:roll:


Agreed. :cheers:

[Full Court]

Me go to ISH in a month when mommy lets me go back on the internets. Me throw HUGE bitch fit then. Me show Full Court. :cry:


:roll:

[aj1987]

im a retard
Agreed. :cheers:

[Full Court]

Agreed. :cheers:

^Still a fuming biatch.


:lebronamazed:

[BlackMamba8]

Agreed. :cheers:

we all agree that we would all whip your ass. If you want to talk DM me, lets see how tough you are....if not bruh shut your mouth

[aj1987]

we all agree that you would whip my ass. If you want to talk DM me, lets see how tough you are....if not bruh shut your mouth

No one wants to DM you, you midget man boobed ******. :cheers:


imStill a fuming biatch.


:lebronamazed:

Yes, you are. :cheers:

[Full Court]

we all agree that we would all whip your ass. If you want to talk DM me, lets see how tough you are....if not bruh shut your mouth

:roll:

aj1987 is such a fuming bitch.

[Walk on Water]

Lebron has better stats in reg, playoffs, and finals, more MVPS, more FMVPs, more everything.

Even Kobe's ring argument is invalid since his 2000 is trash compared to all time great "rings" - dude got annihilated by Jalen Rose and Reggie Miller, and was even outscored by Austin Croshere :oldlol:

Kobe stans need to stop being so convoluted/desperate and accept that Kobe will always be in the back half of the top ten while Lebron is cemented as the second best all time after MJ.




Jokic has better stats than LeBron ever had. And he swept LeBron.

At least Kobe averaged more points than LeBron in his prime in a tougher era. And got double the defensive selections. More rings. Those are the most important things. LeBron can have his stats, but at least have stats like Luca or Jokic if that’s what you’re gonna use. 27-7-7 is semi lame by modern standards.

[BlackMamba8]

No one wants to DM you, you midget man boobed ******. :cheers:



Yes, you are. :cheers:

you a little boy.....BOY!

[kawhileonard2]

Kobe has more titles and never won bronze medal for America something Lebron did twice. Kobe was better than Lebron. Lebron had to switch teams multiple times to win, Kobe won for the only team he ever played for.

[aj1987]

:roll:

im such a fuming bitch.

:cheers:

[Full Court]

:cheers:

^Fuming biatch. :lol

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FMctANWF ymbUJCmYtb0%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=f985de3e6c1298ec61071ba9f32a59a28be1fc3776b997 e8a10153d238e20642&ipo=images

[aj1987]

im a Fuming biatch. :lol

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FMctANWF ymbUJCmYtb0%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=f985de3e6c1298ec61071ba9f32a59a28be1fc3776b997 e8a10153d238e20642&ipo=images

Yep. :cheers:

[SATAN]

Yep. :cheers:

:roll:

[3ba11]

Lebron's inability to win many titles with 1 team is rewarded via team-hopping, while Curry, Kobe and MJ are punished for winning many titles with 1 team via slander like "can't win without Klay or Pippen"

And it's a skillset issue - lebron's ball-domination imposes spot-up roles that doesn't develop great chemistry to win titles over the long-term, while MJ, Curry and Kobe are expert jumpshooters that allow the ball to move and long-standing brand of ball to develop.. Accordingly, they are superior at basketball than Lebron.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kinda off topic, but Jordan couldn't win without Pippen.

[3ba11]

Kinda off topic, but Jordan couldn't win without Pippen.


can't 3-peat

can't win 6 chips

can't win 70 games

can't have dynasty

can't have #1 offense

can't win DPOY

can't win 5 MVP's

can't hit game-winner on championship level

can't beat top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick

can't win as 1st option without franchise players at 2nd and 3rd option

can't have winning Finals record