Shaq and his teams usually underperformed against the best opposition...

[dankok8]

I've recently started ranking Shaq lower than before because he generally underperformed or at least didn't raise his game against the best teams. You won't see any 35/15 series averages you see against minnows in the threepeat Finals. And to make things worse, his teams underperformed too many times as well. His teams badly collapsed on defense in so many playoff series.

By my count, prime Shaq faced ten really good teams in his prime from 1995-2003.

I realize it's a bit subjective which teams to include but I think it's a solid list.


vs. 1995 Rockets

0-4 by -7.0 points/game

28.0/12.5/6.3 with 2.5 bpg, 0.3 spg on 60.6 %TS (+6.3 rTS) with 5.3 topg

Scored well but turnovers too high and couldn't stop Hakeem at all. Got "punked" by his own admission and his team got hammered.


vs. 1996 Bulls

0-4 by -16.7 points/game

27.0/10.8/4.0 with 1.5 bpg, 1.5 spg on 60.3 %TS (+6.2 rTS) with 4.3 topg

This is one of the worst demolitions of an elite team in NBA history. Shaq was helpless on defense and scored a bunch in garbage time.


vs. 1997 Jazz

1-4 by -3.6 points/game

22.0/11.6/3.2 with 2.0 bpg, 0.4 spg on 52.3 %TS (-1.3 rTS) with 3.0 topg

Defending pick and roll was a major problem for Shaq and it doesn't get any better than Stockton/Malone. Also struggled offensively.


vs. 1998 Jazz

0-4 by -13.5 points/game

31.8/9.3/1.0 with 1.0 bpg, 0.5 spg on 55.1 %TS (+2.7 rTS) with 3.5 topg

See 1997. Just a complete annihilation by 13.5 points/game. Shaq was helpless on defense.


vs. 1999 Spurs

0-4 by -8.0 points/game

23.8/13.0/0.5 with 1.8 bpg, 1.0 spg on 50.6 %TS (-0.5 rTS) with 2.3 topg

Spurs used the Twin Towers to contain Shaq.


vs. 2000 Blazers

4-3 by -1.9 points/game

25.9/12.4/4.3 with 1.9 bpg, 0.1 spg on 55.0 %TS (+2.7 rTS) with 2.7 topg

Lakers lucky to win this series as they were outscored and down 1-3 and down in the 4th quarter of Game 7. Sabonis along with some of Rasheed Wallace managed to slow Shaq down.


vs. 2001 Spurs

4-0 by 22.2 points/game

27.0/13.0/2.5 with 1.3 bpg, 0.8 spg on 54.7 %TS (+2.9 rTS) with 3.5 topg

Lakers blew the Spurs to smithereens largely thanks to Kobe who was the MVP of the series.


vs. 2002 Spurs

4-1 by 4.2 points/game

21.4/12.2/3.2 with 3.0 bpg, 0.3 spg on 48.7 %TS (-3.3 rTS) with 3.0 topg

Lakers won comfortably despite Shaq having a terrible series. Kobe was better.


vs. 2002 Kings

4-3 by -0.3 points/game

30.3/13.6/1.6 with 2.4 bpg, 0.4 spg on 56.3 %TS (+4.3 rTS) with 3.6 topg

Lakers a bit lucky to win this series. Shaq was badly abused by Bibby pick-and-pop.


vs. 2003 Spurs

2-4 by -5.8 points/game

25.3/14.3/3.7 with 4.3 bpg, 0.3 spg on 59.2 %TS (+7.3 rTS) with 3.5 topg

Probably Shaq's best series against the Spurs. Still Kobe led the Lakers and they lost the series.

[999Guy]

The Lakers defense was the MVP of the 01 WCF, and that whole playoff run. Beyond outlierish dominant defensive results. Russell’s Celtics kind of results.

Would not shock me at all if Shaq had more impact by way of D.

But Fisher played like a low-stats superstar that whole run, ridiculous defense and hot shooting.

But especially against San Antonio. That wasn’t a carry job, at all for anyone, Shaq or Kobe.


Otherwise, pretty interesting observations on the whole. I might have to re-analyze Shaq’s overall playoff habits. He was a boogeyman by 99/00 though. Not much analysis needed.

[Full Court]

But he's also the only player other than Jordan to win three straight FMVPs in the modern era. That's no small achievement. You make some good points, but he still did enough to be top 10 in my book.

[dankok8]

Oh yea he's still top 10 but I'm less convinced about the GOAT-level peak.

[WhiteKyrie]

Oh yea he's still top 10 but I'm less convinced about the GOAT-level peak.

Me too. Plus I mean Jesus, prime Penny before injuries was on trajectory of being one of the greatest ever. Then he played with the 2nd best SG and then the 4th best SG ever.

[RRR3]

Shaq, like all guys who ever get GOAT anything attached to their names, makes MJ stans insecure. If Wembanyama lives up the hype, the meltdowns will be amazing.

[dankok8]

Shaq, like all guys who ever get GOAT anything attached to their names, makes MJ stans insecure. If Wembanyama lives up the hype, the meltdowns will be amazing.

Actually it's funny but I recently moved Lebron > Shaq in terms of peak.

[tpols]

Shaq was a bully player. He didn't have a counter for teams that could match his physicality.

[SouBeachTalents]

Actually it's funny but I recently moved Lebron > Shaq in terms of peak.
What are your top 5 peaks outside of Jordan?

[StrongLurk]

Peak Shaq is for sure better than Peak Kobe and Peak Duncan.

[8Ball]

I rewatched some of those peak Lakers games.


A lot of the possessions from the Lakers came from originating the offence with Shaq, trying to get a double team from that, and getting an open shot to a teammate. Go watch game 7 Lakers vs Portland 2000, 4th quarter. Lakers were almost entirely dependent on Shaq creating a good shot for them.


That isn't reflected in stats or hindsight analysis. You have to watch these games to understand how dominating Shaq was.


But bigs can't bring the ball up the court and originate the offence, they need guards and playmakers to get them the ball.

[dankok8]

What are your top 5 peaks outside of Jordan?

Russell gives me a headache when I try to grade his peak. Relative to his era, his impact can never be rivaled by any player ever but that era is also extremely situational in terms of defensive bigs being by far the most valuable type of player. In fact a great rim protector was like a cheat code then. For example Russell was undoubtedly more impactful than say Hakeem relative to their eras but I'm pretty confident that Hakeem is the better player.

Thus excluding Russell I have:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Lebron
4. Hakeem
5. Shaq
6. Wilt

I used to have Shaq at #3.

[ILLsmak]

I rewatched some of those peak Lakers games.


But bigs can't bring the ball up the court and originate the offence, they need guards and playmakers to get them the ball.

Yup if people make shots he wins. He wins vs houston if his shooters outshoot theirs, how u luv that.

But yea he aint goat but his peak or even young like 94-95 level was out of control.

Then there were plays where his team couldnt get him ball for multiple important possessions. Thats why i hate van x.

-Smak

[3ba11]

I've recently started ranking Shaq lower than before because he generally underperformed or at least didn't raise his game against the best teams. You won't see any 35/15 series averages you see against minnows in the threepeat Finals. And to make things worse, his teams underperformed too many times as well. His teams badly collapsed on defense in so many playoff series.

By my count, prime Shaq faced ten really good teams in his prime from 1995-2003.

I realize it's a bit subjective which teams to include but I think it's a solid list.


vs. 1995 Rockets

0-4 by -7.0 points/game

28.0/12.5/6.3 with 2.5 bpg, 0.3 spg on 60.6 %TS (+6.3 rTS) with 5.3 topg

Scored well but turnovers too high and couldn't stop Hakeem at all. Got "punked" by his own admission and his team got hammered.


vs. 1996 Bulls

0-4 by -16.7 points/game

27.0/10.8/4.0 with 1.5 bpg, 1.5 spg on 60.3 %TS (+6.2 rTS) with 4.3 topg

This is one of the worst demolitions of an elite team in NBA history. Shaq was helpless on defense and scored a bunch in garbage time.


vs. 1997 Jazz

1-4 by -3.6 points/game

22.0/11.6/3.2 with 2.0 bpg, 0.4 spg on 52.3 %TS (-1.3 rTS) with 3.0 topg

Defending pick and roll was a major problem for Shaq and it doesn't get any better than Stockton/Malone. Also struggled offensively.


vs. 1998 Jazz

0-4 by -13.5 points/game

31.8/9.3/1.0 with 1.0 bpg, 0.5 spg on 55.1 %TS (+2.7 rTS) with 3.5 topg

See 1997. Just a complete annihilation by 13.5 points/game. Shaq was helpless on defense.


vs. 1999 Spurs

0-4 by -8.0 points/game

23.8/13.0/0.5 with 1.8 bpg, 1.0 spg on 50.6 %TS (-0.5 rTS) with 2.3 topg

Spurs used the Twin Towers to contain Shaq.


vs. 2000 Blazers

4-3 by -1.9 points/game

25.9/12.4/4.3 with 1.9 bpg, 0.1 spg on 55.0 %TS (+2.7 rTS) with 2.7 topg

Lakers lucky to win this series as they were outscored and down 1-3 and down in the 4th quarter of Game 7. Sabonis along with some of Rasheed Wallace managed to slow Shaq down.


vs. 2001 Spurs

4-0 by 22.2 points/game

27.0/13.0/2.5 with 1.3 bpg, 0.8 spg on 54.7 %TS (+2.9 rTS) with 3.5 topg

Lakers blew the Spurs to smithereens largely thanks to Kobe who was the MVP of the series.


vs. 2002 Spurs

4-1 by 4.2 points/game

21.4/12.2/3.2 with 3.0 bpg, 0.3 spg on 48.7 %TS (-3.3 rTS) with 3.0 topg

Lakers won comfortably despite Shaq having a terrible series. Kobe was better.


vs. 2002 Kings

4-3 by -0.3 points/game

30.3/13.6/1.6 with 2.4 bpg, 0.4 spg on 56.3 %TS (+4.3 rTS) with 3.6 topg

Lakers a bit lucky to win this series. Shaq was badly abused by Bibby pick-and-pop.


vs. 2003 Spurs

2-4 by -5.8 points/game

25.3/14.3/3.7 with 4.3 bpg, 0.3 spg on 59.2 %TS (+7.3 rTS) with 3.5 topg

Probably Shaq's best series against the Spurs. Still Kobe led the Lakers and they lost the series.


Now do it for Lebron - he's another shaq-like player with a similar predictable game - you'll see the same team underachievement in the 2007 Finals, 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, 2011 Finals, 2014 Finals, 2017 Finals, 2021 1st Round or 2023 WCF

[Reggie43]

Shaq in 2000 had a Goat level peak not even debatable and his prime wasnt shabby either. Nobody got as much defensive attention as him at his peak and yet he still delivered.

[John8204]

Russell gives me a headache when I try to grade his peak. Relative to his era, his impact can never be rivaled by any player ever but that era is also extremely situational in terms of defensive bigs being by far the most valuable type of player. In fact a great rim protector was like a cheat code then. For example Russell was undoubtedly more impactful than say Hakeem relative to their eras but I'm pretty confident that Hakeem is the better player.

Thus excluding Russell I have:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Lebron
4. Hakeem
5. Shaq
6. Wilt

I used to have Shaq at #3.

Jerry West
Season 1 - 7 games loss to Bob Pettit's Hawks
Season 2 - 7 games loss to Bill Russell's Celtics
Season 3 - 6 game loss to Bill Russell's Celtics
Season 4 - 5 game loss to Bob Pettit's Hawks
Season 5 - 5 game loss to Bill Russell's Celtics
Season 6 - 7 games loss to Bill Russell's Celtics
Season 7 - 3-0 sweep to Rick Barry's Warriors
Season 8 - 6 game loss to Bill Russell's Celtics
Season 9 - 7 games loss to Bill Russell's Celtics
Season 10 -7 games loss to Walt Frazier's Knicks
Season 11 - 5 game loss to Kareem's Bucks
Season 12 - Title Win
Season 13 - 5 games loss to Walt Frazier's Knicks
Season 14 - 5 game loss to Kareem's Bucks

Jerry's peak was his whole damn career.

[Axe]

Jerry West
Season 1 - 7 games loss to Bob Pettit's Hawks
Season 2 - 7 games loss to Bill Russell's Celtics
Season 3 - 6 game loss to Bill Russell's Celtics
Season 4 - 5 game loss to Bob Pettit's Hawks
Season 5 - 5 game loss to Bill Russell's Celtics
Season 6 - 7 games loss to Bill Russell's Celtics
Season 7 - 3-0 sweep to Rick Barry's Warriors
Season 8 - 6 game loss to Bill Russell's Celtics
Season 9 - 7 games loss to Bill Russell's Celtics
Season 10 -7 games loss to Walt Frazier's Knicks
Season 11 - 5 game loss to Kareem's Bucks
Season 12 - Title Win
Season 13 - 5 games loss to Walt Frazier's Knicks
Season 14 - 5 game loss to Kareem's Bucks

Jerry's peak was his whole damn career.
So even if the league used to be so small before, he still had a 1/9 record in the finals bt. :eek:

[John8204]

So even if the league used to be so small before, he still had a 1/9 record in the finals bt. :eek:

It also meant that it was harder to get a roster spot...and it's a lot better than going 1-8 against John Stockton, needing 7 games to beat Chris Webber and Rasheed Wallace and losing to Chauncy Billups.

[Baller234]

Russell gives me a headache when I try to grade his peak. Relative to his era, his impact can never be rivaled by any player ever but that era is also extremely situational in terms of defensive bigs being by far the most valuable type of player. In fact a great rim protector was like a cheat code then. For example Russell was undoubtedly more impactful than say Hakeem relative to their eras but I'm pretty confident that Hakeem is the better player.

Thus excluding Russell I have:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Lebron
4. Hakeem
5. Shaq
6. Wilt

I used to have Shaq at #3.

wilt shouldn't be compared to these guys either. it was a totally different game. it should really only be pre-merger and post-merger when the 3pt line was introduced.

2pt basketball is a totally different game from 3pt basketball. it's actually pretty retarded that we even try and compare the two.

[999Guy]

I rewatched some of those peak Lakers games.


A lot of the possessions from the Lakers came from originating the offence with Shaq, trying to get a double team from that, and getting an open shot to a teammate. Go watch game 7 Lakers vs Portland 2000, 4th quarter. Lakers were almost entirely dependent on Shaq creating a good shot for them.


That isn't reflected in stats or hindsight analysis. You have to watch these games to understand how dominating Shaq was.


But bigs can't bring the ball up the court and originate the offence, they need guards and playmakers to get them the ball.

Shaq had gravity on being a put-back or drop off threat when guys are driving down the lane. Bigs would stick to Shaq and stay floor bound instead of rotating over.

Shaq would've easily, easily gotten all-star offensive production, even just on his dirty work and hustle points. And he made his teammates better there anyway. So even if the guards are retarded and can't make a basic entry pass, the offense could still be functional due to Shaq.

This is why the idea of Kobe ever even coming close to peak Shaq even in a series where there seems to be a statistical gap, is absurd. Shaq had much much more affect on how the game was being played than Kobe ever did.

[dankok8]

I rewatched some of those peak Lakers games.


A lot of the possessions from the Lakers came from originating the offence with Shaq, trying to get a double team from that, and getting an open shot to a teammate. Go watch game 7 Lakers vs Portland 2000, 4th quarter. Lakers were almost entirely dependent on Shaq creating a good shot for them.


That isn't reflected in stats or hindsight analysis. You have to watch these games to understand how dominating Shaq was.

But bigs can't bring the ball up the court and originate the offence, they need guards and playmakers to get them the ball.

Umm I watched the games and when did I imply that Shaq is some scrub... He's my 5th highest peak ever and still has a case for 3rd for me which is where I had him before. I'm just a bit lower on him than I used to be. This is a result of watching games, analyzing his teams and yes looking at his statistical production.

[Overdrive]

Jordan and his teams usually underperformed against the best opposition.
Wilt and his teams usually underperformed against the best opposition.
Lebron and his teams usually underperformed against the best opposition.
Etcetc.

[John8204]

wilt shouldn't be compared to these guys either. it was a totally different game. it should really only be pre-merger and post-merger when the 3pt line was introduced.

2pt basketball is a totally different game from 3pt basketball. it's actually pretty retarded that we even try and compare the two.

Like I've said before the best way to judge players is position and generation and then mixing them together. I personally think it's okay to rank Wilt as 1 or 2 if you want...he has a good case. And while you could bring up the merger and premerger, expansion, the 3pt line, the influx global talent all had major impact on the game.

The issue with Shaq/Kobe/Duncan and why I can't rank them in my GOAT tier is the officiating scandal.


https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ma248kJFf9Q

[Real Men Wear Green]

Shaq was a bully player. He didn't have a counter for teams that could match his physicality.

No one could match his physicality. Even when Olajuwon led the Rockets over his Magic he wasn't actually stopping Shaq.

[ArbitraryWater]

Jordan struggled vs. Nr.1 ranked defenses during championship years:


1993 Knicks:
32.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 7 apg, 40.0 FG% (excluding game 4: 27.8 ppg on 35.2 FG%)

1996 Sonics:
27.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.2 apg, 41.1 FG%

1997 Heat:
30.2 ppg, 8 rpg, 2.6 apg, 38.6 FG%

[dankok8]

Jordan struggled vs. Nr.1 ranked defenses during championship years:


1993 Knicks:
32.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 7 apg, 40.0 FG% (excluding game 4: 27.8 ppg on 35.2 FG%)

1996 Sonics:
27.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.2 apg, 41.1 FG%

1997 Heat:
30.2 ppg, 8 rpg, 2.6 apg, 38.6 FG%

Include the relative TS% plus turnovers too and give us a little more context on those series.

[iamgine]

So did Kareem before Magic arrived.

[dankok8]

So did Kareem before Magic arrived.

His teams didn't win much yes but in his case he was overmatched in talent and couldn't really be expected to win. Also he individually dominated against the 1970 Knicks, 1972 Lakers, 1974 Celtics, 1977 Blazers, 1979 Sonics...

Shaq rarely ever had those kind of dominant series against the best teams.

[Xiao Yao You]

His teams didn't win much yes but in his case he was overmatched in talent and couldn't really be expected to win. Also he individually dominated against the 1970 Knicks, 1972 Lakers, 1974 Celtics, 1977 Blazers, 1979 Sonics...

Shaq rarely ever had those kind of dominant series against the best teams.

If he individually dominated Walton how did Walton carry his team to the title?

[dankok8]

If he individually dominated Walton how did Walton carry his team to the title?

Because Walton's teammates completely destroyed Kareem's teammates.

[iamgine]

His teams didn't win much yes but in his case he was overmatched in talent and couldn't really be expected to win. Also he individually dominated against the 1970 Knicks, 1972 Lakers, 1974 Celtics, 1977 Blazers, 1979 Sonics...

Shaq rarely ever had those kind of dominant series against the best teams.

People make too many excuse for Kareem. His scoring rate wasn't that great in the playoff. Missed playoff twice in the weak 70s. And got outplayed by Gus Williams in '79. I really don't see him being that dominant before Magic arrived.

[Xiao Yao You]

Because Walton's teammates completely destroyed Kareem's teammates.

a guy putting up 19 pts/15 rbds/6 ass/2 blks/1 stl wasn't dominated

[dankok8]

People make too many excuse for Kareem. His scoring rate wasn't that great in the playoff. Missed playoff twice in the weak 70s. And got outplayed by Gus Williams in '79. I really don't see him being that dominant before Magic arrived.

Poor scoring rate? Kareem in the 70's averaged like 30 ppg on +8 rTS in the playoffs. That's likely the best in history after Jordan.

Gus kind of matched Kareem on offense but Kareem was also probably the best defender in the league.

If you actually look at the series, the reason the Lakers lost is because their guards got torched on defense and nobody except Kareem and maybe Wilkes grabbed any rebounds.

Missing the playoffs it's been discussed before but the 1975 team was 34-31 with Kareem, 3-14 without Kareem. And in 1976, his new Lakers team was just super poor because they traded their four best players IIRC for Kareem or something crazy like that. They also had the 4th best record and 3rd best SRS in the conference and still missed the playoffs due to their division.


a guy putting up 19 pts/15 rbds/6 ass/2 blks/1 stl wasn't dominated

But he was...

1977 WCF
Kareem: 30.3 ppg, 16.0 rpg, 3.8 apg, 3.8 bpg on 66.1 %TS (+14.9)
Walton: 19.3 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 2.3 bpg on 51.7 %TS (+0.5)

The Lakers had their starting PF Kermit Washington and starting SG Lucious Allen both out with injuries. And even when healthy they had less talent.

[ArbitraryWater]

Include the relative TS% plus turnovers too and give us a little more context on those series.

I wont, its pretty clear he struggled big time against the nr.1 ranked defenses.

[iamgine]

Poor scoring rate? Kareem in the 70's averaged like 30 ppg on +8 rTS in the playoffs. That's likely the best in history after Jordan.


That's only cause Kareem played lots of minutes. His scoring rate was often only around 22ppg per 36 minutes for like 6 out of 8 seasons he made the 70s playoff. Dirk had better scoring rate.

Too many excuses.

[Xiao Yao You]

https://thejnotes.com/2023/10/18/shaquille-oneal-calls-the-utah-jazz-cheating-bastards/



Q: Least favorite arena?

A: Utah, because they got all the calls! Always flopping. Once you got into foul trouble, you were not going to have a good game.

Q: You felt like you were refereed differently in Utah?

A: Oh yeah, everyone was! Those cheating bastards in Utah.



sucks getting smoked by an over the hill team :roll:

[rawimpact]

Oh yea he's still top 10 but I'm less convinced about the GOAT-level peak.


WTF

[dankok8]

That's only cause Kareem played lots of minutes. His scoring rate was often only around 22ppg per 36 minutes for like 6 out of 8 seasons he made the 70s playoff. Dirk had better scoring rate.

Too many excuses.

Per 75 possessions...

1970-1980 Kareem: 25.6 pts on 57.0 %TS (+6.0 rTS)
2002-2012 Dirk: 25.1 pts on 58.4 %TS (+5.1 rTS)

Kareem has a slightly higher scoring rate and on higher relative efficiency. And then you apply that rate over more minutes/game and realize Kareem is significantly more valuable than Dirk even just as a scorer.

[dankok8]

I wont, its pretty clear he struggled big time against the nr.1 ranked defenses.

His team got 3-0 leads in both the 1996 Finals and 1997 ECF where he played really strong and he only "struggled" after that. Took his foot off the gas pedal with the series over... The 1993 ECF you have to factor in his elite playmaking in that series and very low turnovers. When you average just 2.3 topg and 52.2 %TS on such a huge offensive load, you're actually being hyper efficient. More efficient than with 4.3 topg but 60 %TS.. You really underrate the value of low turnover offense.

Imagine comparing that to Shaq who was getting swept in so many series and destroyed on P&R. Step up homie. This is weak shit!

Both Jordan and Kareem were way better in the playoffs against good teams that Shaq was.

[rawimpact]

https://thejnotes.com/2023/10/18/shaquille-oneal-calls-the-utah-jazz-cheating-bastards/



sucks getting smoked by an over the hill team :roll:

Lakers should never be calling anyone out for getting calls in the early 2000s

-A laker fan

[John8204]

Because Walton's teammates completely destroyed Kareem's teammates.

Kareem always had better teammates...he wasn't like Shaq gutlessly running to MVP's every couple years

[Overdrive]

Include the relative TS% plus turnovers too and give us a little more context on those series.

You didn't adress my post you can't really adress his. You're grasping at straws, because your agenda easily falls apart looking at players you like, because everyone plays worse against the best oppossition, because - surprise - it's the best oppossition for a reason.

[RRR3]

His team got 3-0 leads in both the 1996 Finals and 1997 ECF where he played really strong and he only "struggled" after that. Took his foot off the gas pedal with the series over... The 1993 ECF you have to factor in his elite playmaking in that series and very low turnovers. When you average just 2.3 topg and 52.2 %TS on such a huge offensive load, you're actually being hyper efficient. More efficient than with 4.3 topg but 60 %TS.. You really underrate the value of low turnover offense.

Imagine comparing that to Shaq who was getting swept in so many series and destroyed on P&R. Step up homie. This is weak shit!

Both Jordan and Kareem were way better in the playoffs against good teams that Shaq was.
When MJ underperforms you whine “b-b-but context” yet you refuse to do the same for Shaq who’s supposedly so much worse. Hmm

[dankok8]

When MJ underperforms you whine “b-b-but context” yet you refuse to do the same for Shaq who’s supposedly so much worse. Hmm

What is the context for those Shaq series that I'm excluding?


You didn't adress my post you can't really adress his. You're grasping at straws, because your agenda easily falls apart looking at players you like, because everyone plays worse against the best oppossition, because - surprise - it's the best oppossition for a reason.


I'm not grasping at any straws. Kareem and Jordan were dominating against the best teams the way Shaq didn't. The record is out there.

My agenda? What is my agenda exactly... I swear it's impossible to have a normal debate on this forum. I simply said I'm a bit lower on Shaq than I used to be. He went from my #3 to my #5 peak because his performances (individual and team..) against the best teams are disappointing to me. What is so weird about that viewpoint? It's heavily rooted in facts and at the end just depends on how much you weigh that in your criteria.

[Loco 50]

What is the context for those Shaq series that I'm excluding?



I'm not grasping at any straws. Kareem and Jordan were dominating against the best teams the way Shaq didn't. The record is out there.

My agenda? What is my agenda exactly... I swear it's impossible to have a normal debate on this forum. I simply said I'm a bit lower on Shaq than I used to be. He went from my #3 to my #5 peak because his performances (individual and team..) against the best teams are disappointing to me. What is so weird about that viewpoint? It's heavily rooted in facts and at the end just depends on how much you weigh that in your criteria.

I'm no Shaq fan.

Shaq faced a DRob and Duncan tandem which diminished his numbers.

Kobe faced an ancient Terry Porter, Steve Smith and a neverwas Antonio Daniels for most of his numbers.

These are not the same feats.

Your agenda appears to be similar to that of the Kobetards that used to haunt this place from the early aughts that have long since been extincted since LeBronze definitively passed him up on the GOAT list.

[warriorfan]

I'm no Shaq fan.

Shaq faced a DRob and Duncan tandem which diminished his numbers.

Kobe faced an ancient Terry Porter, Steve Smith and a neverwas Antonio Daniels for most of his numbers.

These are not the same feats.

Your agenda appears to be similar to that of the Kobetards that used to haunt this place from the early aughts that have long since been extincted since LeBronze definitively passed him up on the GOAT list.

Apparently you aren’t a basketball fan either because you don’t know who Bruce Bowen was.

[ArbitraryWater]

I'm not grasping at any straws. Kareem and Jordan were dominating against the best teams the way Shaq didn't. The record is out there.

My agenda? What is my agenda exactly... I swear it's impossible to have a normal debate on this forum. I simply said I'm a bit lower on Shaq than I used to be. He went from my #3 to my #5 peak because his performances (individual and team..) against the best teams are disappointing to me. What is so weird about that viewpoint? It's heavily rooted in facts and at the end just depends on how much you weigh that in your criteria.


It isnt.

Its just a simpe fact that many struggle against the best, even Jordan as I pointed out.


Pointing out the Bulls went up 3-0 doesnt change anything about that. That just means he had better help.

[Loco 50]

Apparently you aren’t a basketball fan either because you don’t know who Bruce Bowen was.
OP mentioned 99, 01, 02 and 03:

99 - No Bruce, Kobe held in check by Elliott on his last legs. Shaq covered by DRob and Duncan. Shaq draws the far tougher matchup.

01- No Bruce, Kobe goes off against ancient Porter and Daniels because our starting guard's shoulder is dislocated by Juwan Howard in the previous round. Shaq matchup remains the same.

02- Bruce's first year and doesn't factor heavily into the rotation until the playoffs because Kobe is murdering Porter and Smitty on their last legs. Bruce is the only capable wing defender the Spurs have, so he also has to cover Fox on the perimeter and in the post because Fox is eating Smitty's lunch when Bruce is on Kobe. Shaq matchup remains the same.

03- Bruce's second year, coincidentally enough the Spurs curbstomp the Lakers again after he's had a full year assimilating into the rotation with heavy minutes.
Shaq matchup changes slightly in that DRob's back is forcing him into retirement and Duncan is fully in his prime so can shoulder more weight.

Your argument relies on folks buying that one year of Bruce fully integrated into the team being a tougher matchup than 4 years of the DRob exiting his prime/and Duncan entering his prime combo.
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Morgan-Freeman-Saying-Good-Luck-The-Dark-Knight.gif

[dankok8]

It isnt.

Its just a simpe fact that many struggle against the best, even Jordan as I pointed out.


Pointing out the Bulls went up 3-0 doesnt change anything about that. That just means he had better help.

No... It means he played well while the series was still competitive.

[warriorfan]

OP mentioned 99, 01, 02 and 03:

99 - No Bruce, Kobe held in check by Elliott on his last legs. Shaq covered by DRob and Duncan. Shaq draws the far tougher matchup.

01- No Bruce, Kobe goes off against ancient Porter and Daniels because our starting guard's shoulder is dislocated by Juwan Howard in the previous round. Shaq matchup remains the same.

02- Bruce's first year and doesn't factor heavily into the rotation until the playoffs because Kobe is murdering Porter and Smitty on their last legs. Bruce is the only capable wing defender the Spurs have, so he also has to cover Fox on the perimeter and in the post because Fox is eating Smitty's lunch when Bruce is on Kobe. Shaq matchup remains the same.

03- Bruce's second year, coincidentally enough the Spurs curbstomp the Lakers again after he's had a full year assimilating into the rotation with heavy minutes.
Shaq matchup changes slightly in that DRob's back is forcing him into retirement and Duncan is fully in his prime so can shoulder more weight.

Your argument relies on folks buying that one year of Bruce fully integrated into the team being a tougher matchup than 4 years of the DRob exiting his prime/and Duncan entering his prime combo.
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Morgan-Freeman-Saying-Good-Luck-The-Dark-Knight.gif

bowen also played in the 04’ WCF where Bryant torched them

it was just funny you completely failed to mention the existence of a perennial all defensive team player during this comparison.

That’s all.