Was a 6th man the MVP of a dynasty? | Offensive Legends Ep. 6 [Thinking Basketball]

[Im Still Ballin]

Great video!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9XbDCXLE94

[Kblaze8855]

Considering they won the first title letting Duncan run wild on the Knicks before he came to the NBA and that while Duncan was powering them to the second, he averaged 9 and 3 on 35% shooting and 20% from three in the finals….no. He was obviously not the MVP of that dynasty. I thought this would be about Hondo who had a much better case. It would also be inaccurate but an easier case to make since he won two after Russell retired.

[Baller234]

i haven't watched the video yet but i always maintained he was one of the most underrated players of our lifetime.

that he (and parker) didn't make the all time 75 list is a joke. he should have been a shoe-in.

[SouBeachTalents]

No, he was not. Great player though that will be wildly underappreciated by fans in the future.

[SouBeachTalents]

Considering they won the first title letting Duncan run wild on the Knicks before he came to the NBA and that while Duncan was powering them to the second, he averaged 9 and 3 on 35% shooting and 20% from three in the finals….no. He was obviously not the MVP of that dynasty. I thought this would be about Hondo who had a much better case. It would also be inaccurate but an easier case to make since he won two after Russell retired.
I 1000% thought it was going to be about McHale based on OP's posting history :lol

[Xiao Yao You]

i haven't watched the video yet but i always maintained he was one of the most underrated players of our lifetime.

that he (and parker) didn't make the all time 75 list is a joke. he should have been a shoe-in.

He's certainly one of the greats. Parker not so much

[Im Still Ballin]

It's the title of the video, fellas. I just posted it.

[SouBeachTalents]

Where would you guys rank Manu among these 2 guards strictly on peak play/value, not all time

Allen
Reggie
Klay
Richmond
Roy

[tpols]

He's certainly one of the greats. Parker not so much

Tony Parker has double the All NBA team selections, triple the All Star selections, more career MVP votes and a FMVP. Manu was great but he had a shorter peak. By 2010+ Parker was signifigantly better player. Actually 2007 and on.

[tpols]

Where would you guys rank Manu among these 2 guards strictly on peak play/value, not all time

Allen
Reggie
Klay
Richmond
Roy

Ray Allen
Reggie
Manu
Roy
Klay
Richmond

[ShawkFactory]

Lol what :lol

No he was not the MVP. Perhaps they don't win in 05 or 07 without him but that doesn't make him MVP.

[Xiao Yao You]

Where would you guys rank Manu among these 2 guards strictly on peak play/value, not all time

Allen
Reggie
Klay
Richmond
Roy

At least top 3 if not 1

[Xiao Yao You]

Tony Parker has double the All NBA team selections, triple the All Star selections, more career MVP votes and a FMVP. Manu was great but he had a shorter peak. By 2010+ Parker was signifigantly better player. Actually 2007 and on.

yeah we all know that he doesn't have the accolades. He was a lot better than Parker though. He would have been great on any team. Not sure Parker would be remembered if he hadn't played with Duncan and Manu

[Carbine]

Tony Parker has double the All NBA team selections, triple the All Star selections, more career MVP votes and a FMVP. Manu was great but he had a shorter peak. By 2010+ Parker was signifigantly better player. Actually 2007 and on.

As a lifelong Spur fan this is another revisionist special from tpols. To say Parker was significantly better than Manu starting in 2007 is flat out incorrect. Nobody would have made those statements in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 or 2011. You know how I know this? Because I watched it all.

2012 and beyond is the right answer. By then Manu was not nearly as consistent or playing as much and Parker separated himself from Manu in terms of play.

Please young ISH, do not take anything tpols says about the 2000-2010 era as gospel. Dude is agent revision specialist

[tpols]

yeah we all know that he doesn't have the accolades. He was a lot better than Parker though. He would have been great on any team. Not sure Parker would be remembered if he hadn't played with Duncan and Manu

At his peak he was because of 2005, but by the time ranges given Parker was better later on. Older Manu was playoff liability and Parker was the only guy that could handle the ball by then. He was easy better by then and even in years like 2007. Up and down a lot of his playoff career but he lit it up that run on great efficiency.

And past 2007 Parker had multiple top 10 and even a top 5 in MVP voting. It isn't revisionist history, but fact he was voted and seen as better.

Duncan was obviously the MVP of the dynasty though.

[Xiao Yao You]

Manu would have been an all time great in any era on any team. Parker not so much. He was fast and could score. Not a great playmaker, shooter or defender. He's a product of the team that he was lucky enough to be drafted to

[Im Still Ballin]

Manu would have been an all time great in any era on any team. Parker not so much. He was fast and could score. Not a great playmaker, shooter or defender. He's a product of the team that he was lucky enough to be drafted to

Parker was a very good playmaker I thought. Depends what you mean by "great" I guess. He did lead the league in points in the paint (PITP) or very close to it in 2005-2006. Very cool. Put him in today's league on his own team and he'd score in the paint like Ja Morant.

[Xiao Yao You]

Parker was a very good playmaker I thought. Depends what you mean by "great" I guess. He did lead the league in points in the paint (PITP) or very close to it in 2005-2006. Very cool.

yeah he was fast and could get to the rim. How would he do today being left alone to shoot from deep or put on an island defensively or in a team where the offense didn't run through others?

[tpols]

Manu would have been an all time great in any era on any team. Parker not so much. He was fast and could score. Not a great playmaker, shooter or defender. He's a product of the team that he was lucky enough to be drafted to

Could say the same thing about Manu. He didn't have the ability to carry a heavy load on a bad team because he got hurt a lot. That's why he came off the bench for the spurs while Tony was a full time starter getting league MVP votes over him every year in the later time ranges 2007 and beyond.

[Xiao Yao You]

Could say the same thing about Manu. He didn't have the ability to carry a heavy load on a bad team because he got hurt a lot. That's why he came off the bench for the spurs while Tony was a full time starter getting league MVP votes over him every year in the later time ranges 2007 and beyond.

Manu was older and came into the league much older. If I had a team in any era I'd want Manu on it. Countless guys I'd want over Parker. You can count stats and accolades and MVP votes all you want

[dankok8]

Ben Taylor overrates Manu quite a bit. He's good but suggesting he's better than Duncan is crazy.

[John8204]

Where would you guys rank Manu among these 2 guards strictly on peak play/value, not all time

Allen
Reggie
Klay
Richmond
Roy

1. Reggie Miller
2. Klay Thompson
3. Manu
4. Ray Allen
5. Richmond
6. Roy

I've said this before and I'll say it again...I'm not sure if Ray Allen is a top 75. He's one of those guys that when I look at him one to one I don't think I would take him over a Reggie or Klay or even an Alonzo Mourning or Grant Hill or Tracy McGrady. Reggie is the guy I would say is the best as he had so many runs with the Pacers throughout his career as the best player on that team but also being a selfless player that elevated the role guys. Klay is a peak and valley type player and I think he has the best D of the group. And Manu is the type of player you need to elevate your team into title contention.

[tpols]

1. Reggie Miller
2. Klay Thompson
3. Manu
4. Ray Allen
5. Richmond
6. Roy

I've said this before and I'll say it again...I'm not sure if Ray Allen is a top 75. He's one of those guys that when I look at him one to one I don't think I would take him over a Reggie or Klay or even an Alonzo Mourning or Grant Hill or Tracy McGrady. Reggie is the guy I would say is the best as he had so many runs with the Pacers throughout his career as the best player on that team but also being a selfless player that elevated the role guys. Klay is a peak and valley type player and I think he has the best D of the group. And Manu is the type of player you need to elevate your team into title contention.


You must not have seen Milwaukee Ray Allen putting up Kobe numbers on elite efficiency leading deep playoff teams. Klay and Manu have never performed at Ray's peak.

[Xiao Yao You]

You must not have seen Milwaukee Ray Allen putting up Kobe numbers on elite efficiency leading deep playoff teams. Klay and Manu have never performed at Ray's peak.

I'd have Reggie behind all 3

[John8204]

You must not have seen Milwaukee Ray Allen putting up Kobe numbers on elite efficiency leading deep playoff teams. Klay and Manu have never performed at Ray's peak.

Yup....I don't think I ever bothered to watch a Ray Allen game in the regular season for his first 11 seasons. I might have watched the playoff series when he lost to Iverson...but I wasn't watching for Ray Allen.

While I'm not saying the guy isn't a hall of famer...he is. Realistically from his generation(lets go with 1990-2002) he wasn't top ten player and the eye test maybe not top fifteen

(Kobe, Duncan, Dirk, KG, Shaq, Kidd, Iverson, Payton, Nash, Pierce, McGrady, Mutombo, Webber, Gasol, Mourning, Hill)

[tpols]

Yup....I don't think I ever bothered to watch a Ray Allen game in the regular season for his first 11 seasons. I might have watched the playoff series when he lost to Iverson...but I wasn't watching for Ray Allen.

While I'm not saying the guy isn't a hall of famer...he is. Realistically from his generation(lets go with 1990-2002) he wasn't top ten player and the eye test maybe not top fifteen

(Kobe, Duncan, Dirk, KG, Shaq, Kidd, Iverson, Payton, Nash, Pierce, McGrady, Mutombo, Webber, Gasol, Mourning, Hill)


In that 2001 ECF Iverson put up 30/6/5 on an atrocious 34% from the field while Ray hung 27/5/3 on absolute sniper 47/51/97 splits.

And the Bucks didn't even have a good defense. 20th rank which is horrible for a good playoff team. While the Sixers had a top 5 Larry Brown and Mutumbo led defense. Ray still destroyed Iverson H2H despite that.

The Sixers won a pivotal game 5 with Iverson shooting 5/27 from the field. And then in Game 7 Mutumbo took as many FTs as the entire Bucks team @ 19 FTAs.

It's well known that series was rigged for Philly since they brought way more ratings than the Bucks did.

[John8204]

It's well known that series was rigged for Philly since they brought way more ratings than the Bucks did.

Everything was rigged during this era....it's why I don't value players from that era

[ShawkFactory]

Everything was rigged during this era....it's why I don't value players from that era

Why would the players be devalued in this situation?

[John8204]

Why would the players be devalued in this situation?

Because the refs were cheating, one got busted the league then sabotaged the investigation and put in instant replay. We always argue over bad officiating but that era all the accomplishments of the stars are tainted to a degree. The guy had 1 title run with the Bucks...perhaps it was because the refs wanted to fade Mcgrady.

If you watch the documentary on the crooked ref his issue wasn't just the games he was calling but also he knew going into every game what team was going to get favored. The corruption was wide spread, and we are going to have to wait for death bed confessions to find out how rigged the NBA during this era.

[rmt]

Manu had better all round skill but could only play for a short time (ideally under 30 minutes) or in spurts. When he got injured (which was often), he took forever to recover. However, he was a SPARK like no other - he could get the Spurs and the fans going. He was also a great/spectacular playmaker - getting all the players involved and a very unselfish teammate. Manu was a BIG match player but if he was tired, his brain seem to turn to mush. He cost the Spurs 2 rings trying to play the hero - the Dirk foul and rushing into 4 Heat players (and getting an offensive foul) instead of running down the clock.

Parker was more of a workhorse - steady, consistent night after night, week after week, etc. He obeyed Pop - I can't think of any instance when he didn't do what Pop said and followed the game plan but he was selfish - trying for FMVP and kept shooting even when it wasn't his night and he should have given it up. His quickness and body control (in the paint) was incredible.

Both were essential to 4 of the 5 rings - if I had to choose one, I'd choose Manu (it could be that I just like the personality better - TP always struck me as arrogant/selfish).

But no, Manu was not the MVP of the Spurs. Obviously, it was Duncan who had most of the pros and none of the cons that either Manu or Parker had.

[rmt]

Manu had better all round skill but could only play for a short time (ideally under 30 minutes) or in spurts. When he got injured (which was often), he took forever to recover. However, he was a SPARK like no other - he could get the Spurs and the fans going. He was also a great/spectacular playmaker - getting all the players involved and a very unselfish teammate. Manu was a BIG match player but if he was tired, his brain seem to turn to mush. He cost the Spurs 2 rings trying to play the hero - the Dirk foul and rushing into 4 Heat players (and getting an offensive foul) instead of running down the clock.

Parker was more of a workhorse - steady, consistent night after night, week after week, etc. He obeyed Pop - I can't think of any instance when he didn't do what Pop said and followed the game plan but he was selfish - trying for FMVP and kept shooting even when it wasn't his night and he should have given it up. His quickness and body control (in the paint) was incredible.

Both were essential to 4 of the 5 rings - if I had to choose one, I'd choose Manu (it could be that I just like the personality better - TP always struck me as arrogant/selfish).

But no, Manu was not the MVP of the Spurs. Obviously, it was Duncan who had most of the pros and none of the cons that either Manu or Parker had.

[kawhileonard2]

Kawhi was the MVP.