The GOAT “conversation”. Who have you heard seriously involved in it?

[Kblaze8855]

By “seriously” I don’t mean how serious you take the name. I just mean all the players you have heard call the greatest or the best ever at any point in your life by someone you believed was serious and not just trying to get a rise out of you, or whoever they are talking to.


Now I’ve heard things like Kevin Durant is better than Jordan and I have a family friend who was in the NBA in the 70s who ranks Elvin Hayes as equal or better than Kareem but since they did not specifically say either of them is the greatest/best of all time and I know for a fact the guy who had Elvin above Kareem thought bird was the best he ever saw at the time I won’t count things like that.

Off the top of my head….entire life?

Kareem
Jordan
Lebron
Kobe
Elgin Baylor
Wilt
Duncan
Russell
Milkan
Oscar
Doctor J
Hakeem
Bill Walton
Bird
Magic
Duncan
Shaq
Jokic
Steph



That’s 19. Be nice to have an even 20 but that’s my list far as I can remember. Yes…I have seen a serious argument that prime Walton was the best player ever. And yes…by more than one person.

Am I correct to assume that everyone you have ever heard get that status from somebody you took serious is on that list? I feel like somewhere somebody’s grandpa has to have Jerry West as the best ever. I want the comprehensive list. I want to fill in everybody who has been in the GOAT conversation in the lifetime of all of ISH. If I missed one from your personal experience be it online, in person, or reading a book…help me out.

I don’t need your 17 year old cousin who thought Melo was the GOAT(I have one). Just people you took serious…preferably as adults…even if you entirely disagreed.

Do I need to add KD? I feel like between all of us someone might know a guy ranking KD #1. Let me know.

[RRR3]

I don’t think I’ve ever taken anyone seriously who said any of those guys were the GOAT besides MJ, Kareem, LeBron, Wilt and Russell. That doesn’t mean I’m right though it’s just what I’ve felt.

[Kblaze8855]

I don’t think I can see it that way. The taking seriously part I mean. Most people who tell you it’s Jordan or LeBron aren’t really thinking about it at all. That doesn’t mean they’re wrong. It just means in this era those are default answers. those are the same answers you’re going to get From somebody who started watching the game last week.

In all likelihood somebody who tells you it’s bird or Duncan they probably take basketball a lot more seriously than the people who give you the popular default answers. Again that doesn’t make anybody right but I would bet if you could pull people at random who give the more obscure answers they would come from people who care more about the subject matter on average. I feel like I would have a harder time justifying not taking John wooden or Larry Brown serious than the average big time LeBron or even Jordan Fan.

I think those answers have a much greater likelihood of being a thoughtless, default response than something you sat down and gave some thought from a place of understanding. If you were about to explain to me, why you think Bill Walton is the best player ever I feel like you’re about to give me a pretty serious justification for what you know people would take poorly without it.

I wouldn’t agree with the conclusion I just feel like the case is more likely to come from a serious fan or then, when you get the standard answer, society would provide.

[Kblaze8855]

Alternate TLDR response….

if one boxing fan tells me Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, Floyd Mayweather, or maybe even Sugar Ray Robinson is the goat and another guy tells me it’s Willie pep? I don’t agree with the second guy, but there’s a much greater chance of that guy being a serious fan of boxing who I should accept has a serious opinion. Perhaps a wrong one. But I can’t dismiss their seriousness just off the answer.

[warriorfan]

I don’t think I’ve ever taken anyone seriously who said any of those guys were the GOAT besides MJ, Kareem, LeBron, Wilt and Russell. That doesn’t mean I’m right though it’s just what I’ve felt.

This list plus Oscar Robertson in my opinion is the list of people’s GOATs that aren’t too outlandish. besides maybe the Oscar Robertson one, tbh I could see cases depending on criteria for the other guys but Oscar it’s hard for me to see where they are coming from, however i’ve seen enough old timers who know way more hoops i’ll ever know drop Oscar as a potential goat so i’ll defer to them in this situation.

[Kblaze8855]

This list plus Oscar Robertson in my opinion is the list of people’s GOATs that aren’t too outlandish. besides maybe the Oscar Robertson one, tbh I could see cases depending on criteria for the other guys but Oscar it’s hard for me to see where they are coming from, however i’ve seen enough old timers who know way more hoops i’ll ever know drop Oscar as a potential goat so i’ll defer to them in this situation.

I don’t know what to do with Oscar. He only stopped being a widely acceptable answer to that question somewhere during the 2000s. There are people who were on the Celtics with Russell, knocking him out of the playoffs….who will tell you with no hesitation the best basketball player they ever saw was Oscar Robertson.

I’ve seen videos of old men, admitting he was so perfect in his approach and execution they were downright ashamed to fail him and would go to him after the game, apologizing like it’s to their dad, saying they really are trying their best just hurt they lost because they couldn’t live up to him.

then you have people like Kareem, who kind of don’t seem to like anybody talking about He was Miles Davis or Mozart on the court and how he didn’t understand what the big deal was until he played with him.

So it’s not even just an era thing. Kareem watched him as a kid and didn’t think he was that good. But he played with old man Oscar and he talks about him like the greatest of legends in all fields.

I get the feeling he was something like a Kobe or Jordan perfectionist but with a Tim Duncan like lack of concern for appearances. Just efficient, in thought and motion. He was built like a tank and could jump out of the gym, but there are like two images ever of him appearing to dunk. Hed lay it up on a break. Why waste more energy for two points?

he’s really interesting and the respect people have for him is otherworldly, but he’s just such a almost angry bitter ass person sometimes because of all the shit he went through because of the era he played. I don’t think anyone is ever really going to appreciate what he was except the people who were around him. listening to them it’s obvious that I don’t get it myself.

[SouBeachTalents]

I don’t know what to do with Oscar. He only stopped being a widely acceptable answer to that question somewhere during the 2000s. There are people who were on the Celtics with Russell, knocking him out of the playoffs….who will tell you with no hesitation the best basketball player they ever saw was Oscar Robertson.

I’ve seen videos of old men, admitting he was so perfect in his approach and execution they were downright ashamed to fail him and would go to him after the game, apologizing like it’s to their dad, saying they really are trying their best just hurt they lost because they couldn’t live up to him.

then you have people like Kareem, who kind of don’t seem to like anybody talking about. He was Miles Davis or Mozart on the court and how he didn’t understand what the big deal was until he played with him.

So it’s not even just an era thing. Kareem watched him as a kid and didn’t think he was that good. But he played with old man Oscar and he talks about him like the greatest of legends in all fields.

I get the feeling he was something like a Kobe or Jordan professional list, but with a Tim Duncan, like lack of concern for appearances. Just efficient, in thought and motion. He was built like a tank and could jump out of the gym, but there are like two images ever of him appearing to dunk. Hed lay it up on a break. Why waste more energy for two points?

he’s really interesting and the respect people have for him is otherworldly, but he’s just such a almost angry bitter ass person sometimes because of all the shit he went through because of the era he played. I don’t think anyone is ever really going to appreciate what he was except the people who were around him. listening to them it’s obvious that I don’t get it myself.
The worst part for Oscar is he now gets lumped in with Westbrook due to the triple double thing.

[Kblaze8855]

The worst part for Oscar is he now gets lumped in with Westbrook due to the triple double thing.

I heard Jerry West talk about it once, and he said Oscar Robinson was so much better than everybody around him. It was like watching a true professional play a team of kids and he was including himself as one of the kids.

There doesn’t seem to be a single person who has ever seen him up close who finds his inclusion on these kinds of things to be ridiculous and I have to give that some consideration. When the entirety of the opposition to your ranking is people who never saw you play? it at least justifies paying a little attention. Not like people don’t accept other 60s players into the conversation. They just don’t accept him. But the people they DO accept…accept him.

Just a tough one all around.

[sdot_thadon]

I've only heard people seriously say:

Wilt
Russell

Early part of my basketball Fandom it was always about Wilt with a few saying he wasn't even better than Russell. Kareem honestly didn't get his "own time" as goat from what I could remember.

Kareem
Magic

Magic always seemed like a provocative pick just to spite Mj lol.

Jordan
Lebron

I've heard Kobe, but in the flow of conversation following it they could never give a convincing reason he was better than Mj. I've also had some older heads tell me Dr.J was the greatest they'd ever seen but I dunno if that was a 70s specific thing because his talk faded as time went on.

[sdot_thadon]

I heard Jerry West talk about it once, and he said Oscar Robinson was so much better than everybody around him. It was like watching a true professional play a team of kids and he was including himself as one of the kids.

There doesn’t seem to be a single person who has ever seen him up close who finds his inclusion on these kinds of things to be ridiculous and I have to give that some consideration. When the entirety of the opposition to your ranking is people who never saw you play? it at least justifies paying a little attention. Not like people don’t accept other 60s players into the conversation. They just don’t accept him. But the people they DO accept…accept him.

Just a tough one all around.

I think Oscar was kinda washed put with Mjs rise to prominence, and he was very angry in the 90s whenever people started saying Jordan was better than he was. I kind of wonder of his attitude towards it pushed him out of the convo? Wilt also was not cool with the idea that Mj nor Kareem for that matter was considered better than he was.

[John8204]

Do I need to add KD? I feel like between all of us someone might know a guy ranking KD #1. Let me know.

The big omission is Jerry West, especially when you look at his entire career not just playing

[jlip]

Russell
Wilt
Big O
Kareem
Magic
Bird
MJ
Hakeem
Kobe
LeBron

Those are the names I have heard before. Honestly, I had Magic as my GOAT until around 2007ish when I started researching the topic more seriously.

[ILLsmak]

I almost thought this would be goat of anything. Or even goat at something like defense, reb, etc. All inclusive goat is pretty short.

People can say bron but ehhh. People can say wilt but ehhh. People can say russell but ehh. And tbh the only one id contest is bron.

You can say larry and i see it but i dont think u can make it in good faith. The only two who really have it are MJ and Kareem and i dont think MJ can be beat due to his resume and Kareem being w another top guy.

Mj resume 2 sexy. If u wanna say other people were better at bball tho i think u could throw other people up there, but mj is a tough beat. Resume its just no contest. He revolutionized bball even if ppl were like him before. It wasnt winning all day like it was w him.

-Smak

[WhiteKyrie]

I heard Jerry West talk about it once, and he said Oscar Robinson was so much better than everybody around him. It was like watching a true professional play a team of kids and he was including himself as one of the kids.

There doesn’t seem to be a single person who has ever seen him up close who finds his inclusion on these kinds of things to be ridiculous and I have to give that some consideration. When the entirety of the opposition to your ranking is people who never saw you play? it at least justifies paying a little attention. Not like people don’t accept other 60s players into the conversation. They just don’t accept him. But the people they DO accept…accept him.

Just a tough one all around.

Jerry was better than Oscar :oldlol: he’s being gracious

[eliteballer]

No serious hoops fan puts LeRoid in the GOAT convo.

Career is null and void.

[SaltyMeatballs]

No serious hoops fan puts LeRoid in the GOAT convo.

Career is null and void.

Explain

[SATAN]

Explain

elitepencilneck claims LeBron is on steroids therefor he's disqualified from the GOAT conversation, even though LeBron is regularly tested. :facepalm

[ShawkFactory]

Kobe as the GOAT couldn’t have been taken seriously. Not that he wasn’t as good as some who would have a more convincing case based on the circumstances. It’s just an unfortunate thing that he came right after Jordan and played almost the same way. I feel like it was pretty understood that he was like 95% Jordan. But because of that you aren’t getting GOAT talks due to the direct comparison.

The time overlap was so small too. If Jordan retired in 93 for good and Kobe came along it might look slightly different.

[LAL]

I don’t think I’ve ever taken anyone seriously who said any of those guys were the GOAT besides MJ, Kareem, LeBron, Wilt and Russell. That doesn’t mean I’m right though it’s just what I’ve felt.

That's right, because you are wrong. You have no basketball experience or abilities, so you need to not post anymore or share your bball opinion.

[LAL]

Kobe as the GOAT couldn’t have been taken seriously. Not that he wasn’t as good as some who would have a more convincing case based on the circumstances. It’s just an unfortunate thing that he came right after Jordan and played almost the same way. I feel like it was pretty understood that he was like 95% Jordan. But because of that you aren’t getting GOAT talks due to the direct comparison.

The time overlap was so small too. If Jordan retired in 93 for good and Kobe came along it might look slightly different.

But still a better basketball player, winner, more feared and respected than lebum james despite msm pushing cheating lebum down our throats since 02.

[j3lademaster]

The big omission is Jerry West, especially when you look at his entire career not just playingThat has nothing to do with a goat player conversation. Otherwise, we need to find a spot in the top 30-50 list for Phil Jackson.

[Wardell Curry]

Off the top of my head….entire life?

Kareem
Jordan
Lebron
Kobe
Elgin Baylor
Wilt
Duncan
Russell
Milkan
Oscar
Doctor J
Hakeem
Bill Walton
Bird
Magic
Duncan
Shaq
Jokic
Steph

Duncan was so good you put him on the list twice. He honestly might be the GOAT.

[Wally450]

In my lifetime, it's been

Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Wilt
Russell

I've heard people bring up Bird and Magic, but have conceded that they're all time greats, but not the best ever.

People mention Kobe, but can't take them seriously.

[WhiteKyrie]

Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kobe, LeBron

[John8204]

That has nothing to do with a goat player conversation. Otherwise, we need to find a spot in the top 30-50 list for Phil Jackson.

Well now hold on...Phil Jackson was a bench player (as was Pat Riley), Jerry West was a great player...offensively, defensively, then he became a great coach....then he became a great GM and oh yeah he was a great college and olympic player as well. This is a guy who helped build three dynasties and that's after a 19 year run in College/Pros where he won every year.

I can't think of any person in any sport who achieved more over all of those decades in any sport and every level.