Top 10 most overrated list which exists just to farm engagement.

[Kblaze8855]

It’s too all over the place to feel like there was a theme other than getting Internet reactions. Like having both Stockton and Iverson. It almost feels like you have to pick one. They shouldn’t both be on an overrated list.

But I’ll use it for the same purpose here so I can’t judge….


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2311022153020333.jpeg

[Real Men Wear Green]

7 of those 10 were at least part-time point guards. 3 of 7 were pass-first. Not that there is any reason I can see for this without some kind of accompanying article but that's disproportionate.

[Kblaze8855]

7 of those 10 were at least part-time point guards. 3 of 7 were pass-first. Not that there is any reason I can see for this without some kind of accompanying article but that's disproportionate.

I’m wondering what aspect of basketball you are into to think Gary Payton is overrated. He’s scored. He was a good play maker. He was one of the best defenders at his position ever. Elite some really good teams even with the couple upsets.

He seems a weird guy to list. No one agenda or belief system would seem to justify it.

[tpols]

If anything Wilt, Magic, and Rondo are underrated. Wilt was an absolute monster and nobody talks about him anymore, Magic injected life into a soul-less Kareem led Lakers, and Rondo has always shown up in the playoffs when the stakes are highest earning the nick name playoff Rondo. How those guys are on the list is totally preposterous.

[tpols]

The only guys on that list that are overrated are derozan, rose, ja, and Iverson.

Imagine making this list and having Magic Johnson near the top and leaving out Russell Westbrook. Whoever compiled this needs to loaded into a space shuttle shot out to the deepest void in the universe.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Iverson is underrated if anything.

Big portion of fans today are stat nerds. They immediately see Iverson's FG% and write him off as a chucker....with minimal impact. :lol

Magic being THE most overrated player though is absurd. Whoever came up with this list couldn't care less about winning. Or intangibles

[Kblaze8855]

Some things just don’t make sense to me when people refer to them as overrated. A guy like DeRozan? You have never read five consecutive positive comments about DeMar DeRozan. He could have 68 points tonight. Hes still going to get criticized about playoff performances from years ago. If the consistent response to everything you do is to question the validity of whatever status the speaker thinks you have how can you be overrated?

2-3 of us he people you mentioned get way too much hate to be generally overrated.

[Xiao Yao You]

Iverson is underrated if anything.

Big portion of fans today are stat nerds. They immediately see Iverson's FG% and write him off as a chucker....with minimal impact. :lol

Magic being THE most overrated player though is absurd. Whoever came up with this list couldn't care less about winning. Or intangibles

Iverson was a low efficient gunner rather you're a stat nerd or not

[tpols]

Some things just don’t make sense to me when people refer to them as overrated. A guy like DeRozan? You have never read five consecutive positive comments about DeMar DeRozan. He could have 68 points tonight. Hes still going to get criticized about playoff performances from years ago. If the consistent response to everything you do is to question the validity of whatever status the speaker thinks you have how can you be overrated?

2-3 of us he people you mentioned get way too much hate to be generally overrated.

The sentiment comes from the fact his game falls off a cliff in the playoffs production wise.

I think a lot of it though comes down to reffing. In the regular season Derozan would get double digit FT averages in his prime. Basically superstar free throw allotment, but in the playoffs he gets nothing basically.

Ive never once seen derozan in a commercial or ad so his lack of corporate endorsement probably works against him when he faces the media darlings. Nobody is underrating his skill.

[Kblaze8855]

Iverson criticism is almost exclusively a stat nerd thing. Well, not so much a nerd, but definitely an analytical type who is fighting about it on the Internet. If you could find a way to measure the percentage of a persons haters who can’t actually play basketball? I’d have to imagine he will be really high on the list of people who see the game as a collection of numbers.

i’m not 100% certain I’ve ever heard verbal Iverson hate. I’ve known people who liked him less than others but the kind of shit you see online? I’ve never known it to come from a person I can verify isnt artificial intelligence. Strictly an Internet “nerd” kind of thing.

perhaps it’s a demographic issue, but I have never personally known anybody who talks about Allen Iverson with the term is used on the Internet. Nor do I really see it from people in the game. He might well be the all-time percentage leader far is how much of his criticism comes from people who can’t play basketball and are dying to type numbers at you that nobody who plays basketball cares about.

[Kblaze8855]

The sentiment comes from the fact his game falls off a cliff in the playoffs production wise.

I think a lot of it though comes down to reffing. In the regular season Derozan would get double digit FT averages in his prime. Basically superstar free throw allotment, but in the playoffs he gets nothing basically.

Ive never once seen derozan in a commercial or ad so his lack of corporate endorsement probably works against him when he faces the media darlings. Nobody is underrating his skill.

what I’m saying is when the extreme majority of the basketball world says that how was he been overrated?

It’s like calling pissing yourself overrated.

It’s universally disliked.

Things have to be rated highly by people to be overrated don’t they?

[SouBeachTalents]

Iverson should be number one, Reggie, Isiah & Kobe belong too.

[NBAGOAT]

No need one specific criteria. This guy just thinks all these guys are ranked too high on most all time lists or were viewed too highly in their primes

[Xiao Yao You]

Iverson criticism is almost exclusively a stat nerd thing. Well, not so much a nerd, but definitely an analytical type who is fighting about it on the Internet. If you could find a way to measure the percentage of a persons haters who can’t actually play basketball? I’d have to imagine he will be really high on the list of people who see the game as a collection of numbers.

i’m not 100% certain I’ve ever heard verbal Iverson hate. I’ve known people who liked him less than others but the kind of shit you see online? I’ve never known it to come from a person I can verify isnt artificial intelligence. Strictly an Internet “nerd” kind of thing.

perhaps it’s a demographic issue, but I have never personally known anybody who talks about Allen Iverson with the term is used on the Internet. Nor do I really see it from people in the game. He might will be the all-time percentage leader far is how much of his criticism comes from people who can’t play basketball and are dying to type numbers at you that nobody who plays basketball cares about.

analytics weren't a thing in '96 and he was still a low iq, low efficiency player anyway you want to look at it. I can play basketball. I can't imagine playing basketball like Iverson or The Bum though

[Manny98]

The overemphasis on analytics has caused guys like Kobe and Iverson to become underrated imo

[Overdrive]

Iverson criticism is almost exclusively a stat nerd thing. Well, not so much a nerd, but definitely an analytical type who is fighting about it on the Internet. If you could find a way to measure the percentage of a persons haters who can’t actually play basketball? I’d have to imagine he will be really high on the list of people who see the game as a collection of numbers.

i’m not 100% certain I’ve ever heard verbal Iverson hate. I’ve known people who liked him less than others but the kind of shit you see online? I’ve never known it to come from a person I can verify isnt artificial intelligence. Strictly an Internet “nerd” kind of thing.

perhaps it’s a demographic issue, but I have never personally known anybody who talks about Allen Iverson with the term is used on the Internet. Nor do I really see it from people in the game. He might will be the all-time percentage leader far is how much of his criticism comes from people who can’t play basketball and are dying to type numbers at you that nobody who plays basketball cares about.

Same. Neither in real time nor after the fact have I ever seen people, people who actually play, attack Iversonblike people do on the internet.

I also find it rich that giys like Xiao praise the shit out of Stockton while the criticize Iverson, Kidd et al for their efficiency.

What exactly has Stockton achieved? He played with a scoring machine from a young age. Neither Kidd nor Iverson played with a player as good for an extended period.

OT: While I praised him just a second ago I think Malone gets way more overrated than Stockton from those 80s/90s Jazz.

The list itself is totally wack and imo the most overrated player I've seen live is post retirement Reggie. Media and people act like he was some rival for Jordan and some really great scorer, while he was a passive off ball scorer, who didn't look to score half a game.

[RRR3]

Same. Neither in real time nor after the fact have I ever seen people, people who actually play, attack Iversonblike people do on the internet.

I also find it rich that giys like Xiao praise the shit out of Stockton while the criticize Iverson, Kidd et al for their efficiency.

What exactly has Stockton achieved? He played with a scoring machine from a young age. Neither Kidd nor Iverson played with a player as good for an extended period.

OT: While I praised him just a second ago I think Malone gets way more overrated than Stockton from those 80s/90s Jazz.

The list itself is totally wack and imo the most overrated player I've seen live is post retirement Reggie. Media and people act like he was some rival for Jordan and some really great scorer, while he was a passive off ball scorer, who didn't look to score half a game.
Xiao has zero consistency. He tries to pretend his views on players are objective but they're not at all and just based off who he likes. He says he hates guys who don't play defense but he stanned George Niang and Adrian Dantley hard. He says he hates guys who don't play offense but he loves guys like Gobert. He says he hates low efficiency guys but he praises Anthony Edwards and says he's better than the much more efficient KAT. He says he loves guys who play elite d but he hates on Kidd, Eaton, and Rubio. He says he hates guys who don't pass but he loves Adrian Dantley like I said before. He says he loves elite two way players but he shits on AD and Embiid. Just a guy with favorites and zero objectivity.

[Kblaze8855]

analytics weren't a thing in '96 and he was still a low iq, low efficiency player anyway you want to look at it. I can play basketball. I can't imagine playing basketball like Iverson or The Bum though

as has been shown time and time again, the extreme vast majority of even stars who play the way you think they should don’t get any better results. 100 Hall of Famer’s didn’t win shit Allen Iverson didn’t even though half of them played on teams with more Prime Star power than he ever had. A certain kind of person is just going to pick on players like Allen Iverson because they feeeeeeel a certain way that they don’t feel about several other people who can, and have been mobbed up on the same team at the same time and get no results.

people have been taking two other prime All-Star caliber guys and 54% shooting their way to 43 wins and a first round exit for 75 years. Guys like Iverson just rubbed certain people wrong.

let prime Allen Iverson have Dirk +3 other All-Stars on one team and lose in the first round. It would get mentioned so often we would have to delete the repeat topics like 3ball bullshit.

but we don’t talk about it with Nash or how they let him walk and gave his money to Eric Dampier and brought in Jason Terry and the team got better with less talent.

Certain numbers and play styles get stat nerd ******* wet, so they will overlook overwhelming evidence that pretty much every style of play is going to mostly lose and their hate is incredibly selective and turns a blind eye to most results.

Very little consistency in the arguments, despite consistency being one of the big talking points from that crowd.

[Xiao Yao You]

Same. Neither in real time nor after the fact have I ever seen people, people who actually play, attack Iversonblike people do on the internet.

I also find it rich that giys like Xiao praise the shit out of Stockton while the criticize Iverson, Kidd et al for their efficiency.

What exactly has Stockton achieved? He played with a scoring machine from a young age. Neither Kidd nor Iverson played with a player as good for an extended period.

OT: While I praised him just a second ago I think Malone gets way more overrated than Stockton from those 80s/90s Jazz.

The list itself is totally wack and imo the most overrated player I've seen live is post retirement Reggie. Media and people act like he was some rival for Jordan and some really great scorer, while he was a passive off ball scorer, who didn't look to score half a game.

Stockton played the game it was supposed to be played as a team. It's not supposed to be played 1 on 5. I realize today's fans don't really get that with the emphasis on iso :cheers:

[Xiao Yao You]

can't quit me!

[Overdrive]

Stockton played the game it was supposed to be played as a team. It's not supposed to be played 1 on 5. I realize today's fans don't really get that with the emphasis on iso :cheers:

What did his teams accomplish that AI's or Kidd's didn't?

[Kblaze8855]

Stockton played the game it was supposed to be played as a team. It's not supposed to be played 1 on 5. I realize today's fans don't really get that with the emphasis on iso :cheers:


To what effect?

What does “the right way” buy you when the other team scored more points than your team when it matters?

People really struggle getting their heads around the fact that the score board doesn’t give a **** how efficiently you score less points than the other team did. If you can play with an MVP caliber player for something like 14-15 years in a row with supporting casts including 20ppg sixth men, DPOYs, great shooting former all stars(plural) and so on…. And lose your entire life? Whatever you’re doing isn’t THAT effective. Out here losing in the first round with multiple 55+ win teams. One 60 win team I believe.

What is the real world game application of playing the right way on the way to the same couch the guy who supposedly plays the wrong way is going to watch the rest of the playoffs with you from?

It’s like having a beautiful form on a jumper that never goes in. Can your jumper be textbook and flawless when the ball consistently doesn’t go in the basket? If so….what use is the “textbook” form?

[tpols]

Same. Neither in real time nor after the fact have I ever seen people, people who actually play, attack Iversonblike people do on the internet.

I also find it rich that giys like Xiao praise the shit out of Stockton while the criticize Iverson, Kidd et al for their efficiency.

What exactly has Stockton achieved? He played with a scoring machine from a young age. Neither Kidd nor Iverson played with a player as good for an extended period.

OT: While I praised him just a second ago I think Malone gets way more overrated than Stockton from those 80s/90s Jazz.

The list itself is totally wack and imo the most overrated player I've seen live is post retirement Reggie. Media and people act like he was some rival for Jordan and some really great scorer, while he was a passive off ball scorer, who didn't look to score half a game.


Kidd took one of the worst defenses in the league and made them #1 rank. He's by far the best defensive and rebounding PG of all time. Talking about a guy outrebounding prime Ben Wallace in playoff series. Great passer too.

His main weakness was his scoring ability. The thing about Iverson was the only thing he was good at was scoring but he even did that inefficiently.

Jkidd probably won triple or quadruple the amount of playoff games Iverson won. I'm not gonna look it up... but it may be way more than that.

[Kblaze8855]

Kidd took one of the worst defenses in the league and made them #1 rank. He's by far the best defensive and rebounding PG of all time. Talking about a guy outrebounding prime Ben Wallace in playoff series. Great passer too.

His main weakness was his scoring ability. The thing about Iverson was the only thing he was good at was scoring but he even did that inefficiently.

Jkidd probably won triple or quadruple the amount of playoff games Iverson won. I'm not gonna look it up... but it may be way more than that.


off the top of my head as best player it’s nine series wins versus six. Kidd then won more as a lesser player on the Mavs.

through their primes it’s 9 to 6 and Kidd didn’t win a playoff series till he was like 29.

He went and shot 31% in the playoffs once and beat up his wife which along with I believe a DUI forced him out of Phoenix and it wasn’t even his worst playoff showing.

he shot 0-8 for 0 points in 42 minutes(7assists 5 rebounds) in a game seven loss of a series he shot 28% in at his peak.

kidd has statistically some of the ugliest performances in history. Not that I care. But some of you(selectively) do.

[tpols]

What Kidd did on the mavs counts. While Iverson was kicked out of the league because he could never assimilate as anything other than a shot jacker, Kidd was still playing a hugely important role assist leader and floor general on a championship team.

[Xiao Yao You]

What did his teams accomplish that AI's or Kidd's didn't?

Who cares? The worst thing I can say about Stockton is was too unselfish and too loyal to the Jazz. You can have Kidd and Iverson. I'd want nothing to do with either

[Kblaze8855]

I don’t care what you are anybody wants to count I’ve been saying on here for 20 years when you ask me about a player I’m not talking about the declines version. You don’t see me talking about 2007 Tracy McGrady and you don’t see me judging Jason Kidd, by what he was when he was old. That said he was in fact, the coach killing malcontent criminal inefficient player a lot of people accuse Iversen of being. Jason Kidd organized a mutiny to get his college coach fired. Was in a love triangle with a teammates girlfriend that broke up a promising core in Dallas when he demanded a trade. Went to Phoenix and started beating up his wife in front of his kid(pled guilty) and drinking while driving. After things went bad on the nets he got at least one coach fired and later pools of James Harden and refused to play and ****ed over Lawrence Frank and demanded another trade.

Jason Kidd skated through the whole era as a cancerous, teammate alienating, coach killing, trade demanding, wife beating, drunk driving, inefficient, surly injury faking asshole.

and I love him. Wifebeating aside of course. And drunk driving.

Id take both he and Iverson on my franchise any time. It’s just hilarious the reputation he managed to keep because he rose and fell before social media.

[red1]

I appreciate this list. Im sure they can make their arguments.

completely subjective obviously. you could argue these players to be underrated.

I would argue derozan is UNDERRATED because his stats dont do him justice. he owns the worst all-time worst playoff plus minus (had deep runs on young teams) - in reality he got a young franchise to its first conference finals as the first option


would have been a champion if he played as the second option as a contender. he never got the chance.


my personal most overrated of all time is


1. kobe
2. chris bosh
3. durant

underrated:

1. wade
2. kawhi
3. pierce

[tpols]

Most of what you said was off the court stuff. And acting like Iverson didn't beat his wife and throw her out on the front lawn.

I generally don't bring that stuff up though. I don't care what these guys did in their personal lives, a lot of them are on some power hungry scumbag shit.

On the court though? Kidd is by far the most elite defensive and rebounding player at his position and a brilliant passer. There's a reason he won way more basketball games than Iverson did.

It's kind of wierd Xiao hates him though. He wasn't a gunner and played elite defense. That seems to be his "type". But apparently not lol.

[Kblaze8855]

Who cares? The worst thing I can say about Stockton is was too unselfish and too loyal to the Jazz. You can have Kidd and Iverson. I'd want nothing to do with either


The “who cares” kind of throws out the meat of the argument about what the right way is. If the supposed right way doesn’t lead to any more success, despite greater resources? The “rightness” is a bit questionable.

John Stockton wouldn’t do a single ****ing thing worth talking about if he were in the place of Jason Kidd. There’s absolutely no evidence to suggest it.

When being too unselfish brings about the same result as being too selfish, the difference doesn’t much matter.

Unselfishly watching your team score less than the opponent as you get knocked out of the playoffs isn’t the right way to play anymore than shooting your team out of the game is. You might prefer to play with the overly unselfish guy, but it’s the guy with a balance who is closer to playing the right way. And even he’s going to lose almost all the time as well.

A lot of this right way. Wrong way shit is just people keeping up for their favorite players regardless of what evidence they are use. People just like who they like. Do you like John Stockton. You don’t like Allen Iverson. I like both of them because I can appreciate pretty much any style of greatness.

Give me Stockton or Iverson or Kidd. I’m happy. And all 3 are probably gonna lose 15 years in a row.

[red1]

1. kobe
2. chris bosh
3. durant

underrated:

1. wade
2. kawhi
3. pierce
my opinions:

kobe is top 7 some people have him top 3 or as their GOAT which IMO is overrating him. the real top 5 players are all big men or hyper athletes like lebron mj kareem wilt and shaq

bosh is a great player some people argue he was top 5 in the league which is overrating

durant is the best scorer of his era but brings zero leadership and little intangibles to his team



wade is the second best shooting guard ever IMO

kawhi is second best player of his era. yes - better than curry and kd.

pierce was a big game player. his stats and accolades dont do him justice. people used to argue that melo was better which I disagree with.

[Kblaze8855]

Most of what you said was off the court stuff. And acting like Iverson didn't beat his wife and throw her out on the front lawn.

I generally don't bring that stuff up though. I don't care what these guys did in their personal lives, a lot of them are on some power hungry scumbag shit.

On the court though? Kidd is by far the most elite defensive and rebounding player at his position and a brilliant passer. There's a reason he won way more basketball games than Iverson did.

It's kind of wierd Xiao hates him though. He wasn't a gunner and played elite defense. That seems to be his "type". But apparently not lol.


I didn’t act like anything about Iverson. Iverson’s issues were heavily publicized. Kidd went around beating women drinking and driving, telling his teammates to ignore multiple coaches and getting them fired. Refusing to play and demanding trades more than anybody short of James Harden. He was just a bad person to have on your team outside the 48 minutes of the game and he would routinely go and shoot one for 12 or something in a close playoff loss. He was as a matter of fact, hugely inefficient, and did more cancerous activities than almost anybody who has the reputation for it.

he’s somewhat like Karl Malone, with obviously different transgressions. Somehow maintained a great reputation while being an absolute piece of shit. Far as I can, tell, malone wasn’t a bad teammate though. Jason Kidd ruined three teams, and demanded to be traded from two after refusing to play hard.

I knew all that even then. I’ve repped Jason Kidd and Iverson and John Stockton for the last 30 years. I don’t care about most of the things that a persons haters won’t let go of. I respect greatness in all its forms and pretty much everyones haters take it too far.

in their primes, they’re all pretty similarly accomplished, and Stockton is definitely the one who did the least with the most. But that isnt a way to seriously evaluate a player to me. It’s just funny how selective people are about it.

none of them really lead a team to true victory and Stockton is the only one who consistently had anyone who probably should have been able to do it with him.

I don’t think you could give Jason kidd Kevin Garnett, or Dirk for a 15 year prime and not win. I’d also imagine prime Kevin Garnett on the 76ers would’ve been quite helpful. Stockton had what neither of them did. An MVP caliber running mate for his entire professional career with a hugely respected coach and a rotation of good third players and decent If not great role players depending on the year.

his career great as it was really doesn’t do much to suggest there is one ultimately effective way to play. You figure a great defensive, tough as nails, 55% shooting point guard who has maybe two peers in basketball history as a floor general would get more done given arguably his ideal running mate for a healthy near 20 year run.

But as the old saying goes….that’s why they play the games.

[plowking]

Reggie Miller and Magic Johnson quite easily.

Not sure why Payton is on there. Or some of the current crop of players...

[Xiao Yao You]

Most of what you said was off the court stuff. And acting like Iverson didn't beat his wife and throw her out on the front lawn.

I generally don't bring that stuff up though. I don't care what these guys did in their personal lives, a lot of them are on some power hungry scumbag shit.

On the court though? Kidd is by far the most elite defensive and rebounding player at his position and a brilliant passer. There's a reason he won way more basketball games than Iverson did.

It's kind of wierd Xiao hates him though. He wasn't a gunner and played elite defense. That seems to be his "type". But apparently not lol.

Kidd took the most shots on his team despite not being able to shoot. He was hyped because of triple doubles. Getting a triple double while shooting 5-19 from the floor never did much for me. If you shot less than 40% and took a lot of shots you aren't my type

[Xiao Yao You]

The “who cares” kind of throws out the meat of the argument about what the right way is. If the supposed right way doesn’t lead to any more success, despite greater resources? The “rightness” is a bit questionable.

John Stockton wouldn’t do a single ****ing thing worth talking about if he were in the place of Jason Kidd. There’s absolutely no evidence to suggest it.

When being too unselfish brings about the same result as being too selfish, the difference doesn’t much matter.

Unselfishly watching your team score less than the opponent as you get knocked out of the playoffs isn’t the right way to play anymore than shooting your team out of the game is. You might prefer to play with the overly unselfish guy, but it’s the guy with a balance who is closer to playing the right way. And even he’s going to lose almost all the time as well.

A lot of this right way. Wrong way shit is just people keeping up for their favorite players regardless of what evidence they are use. People just like who they like. Do you like John Stockton. You don’t like Allen Iverson. I like both of them because I can appreciate pretty much any style of greatness.

Give me Stockton or Iverson or Kidd. I’m happy. And all 3 are probably gonna lose 15 years in a row.

Stockton would have been the same player regardless of where he was. I can guarantee he wouldn't have shot under 40% under any circumstance. You can have your low IQ gunners. I'll take the other guys

[Xiao Yao You]

I didn’t act like anything about Iverson. Iverson’s issues were heavily publicized. Kidd went around beating women drinking and driving, telling his teammates to ignore multiple coaches and getting them fired. Refusing to play and demanding trades more than anybody short of James Harden. He was just a bad person to have on your team outside the 48 minutes of the game and he would routinely go and shoot one for 12 or something in a close playoff loss. He was as a matter of fact, hugely inefficient, and did more cancerous activities than almost anybody who has the reputation for it.

he’s somewhat like Karl Malone, with obviously different transgressions. Somehow maintained a great reputation while being an absolute piece of shit. Far as I can, tell, malone wasn’t a bad teammate though. Jason Kidd ruined three teams, and demanded to be traded from two after refusing to play hard.

I knew all that even then. I’ve repped Jason Kidd and Iverson and John Stockton for the last 30 years. I don’t care about most of the things that a persons haters won’t let go of. I respect greatness in all its forms and pretty much everyones haters take it too far.

in their primes, they’re all pretty similarly accomplished, and Stockton is definitely the one who did the least with the most. But that isnt a way to seriously evaluate a player to me. It’s just funny how selective people are about it.

none of them really lead a team to true victory and Stockton is the only one who consistently had anyone who probably should have been able to do it with him.

I don’t think you could give Jason kidd Kevin Garnett, or Dirk for a 15 year prime and not win. I’d also imagine prime Kevin Garnett on the 76ers would’ve been quite helpful. Stockton had what neither of them did. An MVP caliber running mate for his entire professional career with a hugely respected coach and a rotation of good third players and decent If not great role players depending on the year.

his career great as it was really doesn’t do much to suggest there is one ultimately effective way to play. You figure a great defensive, tough as nails, 55% shooting point guard who has maybe two peers in basketball history as a floor general would get more done given arguably his ideal running mate for a healthy near 20 year run.

But as the old saying goes….that’s why they play the games.

A highly respected coach that went from 1st to 3rd in his division with two of the greats and again with the legendary Carlos Boozer. A team having loyalty towards you doesn't make you a great coach. They had a cheap owner. They were playing 4 on 5 at the offensive end with Eaton. There were always huge holes on their teams even when they won 60 games. Who were all these great role players they had other than Horny? I mean the ones that Sloan would actually play over the scrubs he often preferred? Jeff Malone? Bobby Hansen? Delaney Rudd? Jarron Collins? :roll:

[Overdrive]

Stockton would have been the same player regardless of where he was.

That's exactly the problem.

[Xiao Yao You]

That's exactly the problem.

Being great in any era under any coach with any teammates is a problem?

[Kblaze8855]

Stockton would have been the same player regardless of where he was. I can guarantee he wouldn't have shot under 40% under any circumstance. You can have your low IQ gunners. I'll take the other guys


That’s just a field goal percentage version of rooting for stats regardless of success. You rep guys with numbers you desire, and others are out for numbers they desire. Must’ve loved bum ass Jason Kapono, who absolutely stopped shooting, trying to maintain a record percentage toward the end of the season.

Percentages are all you seem to require as if shooting 54% with fewer points than the other team scored gives you a W. It doesn’t. It’s just a stat nerd approved L of no consequence.

Losing is losing.

Stockton shooting 55% doesn’t matter in a big loss any more than the more traditionally clowned empty stats do.

Just L after L regardless of how each of them get there.

[Xiao Yao You]

That’s just a field goal percentage version of rooting for stats regardless of success. You rep guys with numbers you desire, and others are out for numbers they desire. Must’ve loved bum ass Jason Kapono, who absolutely stopped shooting, trying to maintain a record percentage toward the end of the season.

Percentages are all you seem to require as if shooting 54% with fewer points than the other team scored gives you a W. It doesn’t. It’s just a stat nerd approved L of no consequence.

Losing is losing.

Stockton shooting 55% doesn’t matter in a big loss any more than the more traditionally clowned empty stats do.

Just L after L regardless of how each of them get there.

% aren't everything I look at. I watch them play. Was a Stockton fan from day 1 when he was shooting 46%. BB IQ, playing both ends, playing unselfishlessly... Gunners, one way players, low IQ aren't for me

[TheMan]

Imagine thinking Magic is the most overrated player in NBA history...that's a whole 'nother level of stupid

[Kblaze8855]

% aren't everything I look at. I watch them play. Was a Stockton fan from day 1 when he was shooting 46%. BB IQ, playing both ends, playing unselfishlessly... Gunners, one way players, low IQ aren't for me

among the several issues there is that I don’t think everyone you call low IQ is low IQ. It also isn’t necessarily high IQ to be unselfish at the expense of your team which John Stockton absolutely was. I love his game, but the jazz flat out lost games often important ones because he would not do what he finally did down the stretch in 1997. The basketball IQ and unselfish thing are often tied together, regardless of results, and it should be far more case by case.

plenty of people are selective with taking shots when they need to be aggressive and that isn’t playing intelligently. It’s playing timidly.

Jason Kidd for example had plenty of 20% shooting games but I would like to think even you don’t believe Jason Kidd did not have elite basketball IQ.

Would you call Jason Kidd an intelligent player?

[Xiao Yao You]

among the several issues there is that I don’t think everyone you call low IQ is low IQ. It also isn’t necessarily high IQ to be unselfish at the expense of your team which John Stockton absolutely was. I love his game, but the jazz flat out lost games often important ones because he would not do what he finally did down the stretch in 1997. The basketball IQ and unselfish thing are often tied together, regardless of results, and it should be far more case by case.

plenty of people are selective with taking shots when they need to be aggressive and that isn’t playing intelligently. It’s playing timidly.

Jason Kidd for example had plenty of 20% shooting games but I would like to think even you don’t believe Jason Kidd did not have elite basketball IQ.

Would you call Jason Kidd an intelligent player?

Kidd taking the most shots on his team when he couldn't shoot is not smart basketball. Garnett was similar to Stockton. Too unselfish. Put enough talent around him and he got a ring

[Kblaze8855]

Kidd taking the most shots on his team when he couldn't shoot is not smart basketball. Garnett was similar to Stockton. Too unselfish. Put enough talent around him and he got a ring

Jason Kidd played for 19 seasons and led 4 teams in shots. Two of them because he was playing lead leading type minutes and the guy who was actually the first option was playing about 30. He was playing more than 41 minutes a game. Per minute four players were taking more shots than he was. He was only really shooting the most on the team for two seasons, and one of them was the best season that team had in the last 45 years and the other one they lost in game seven of the conference finals… when he only took eight shots in 42 minutes.

He wasn’t playing like the first option for about 17 seasons, at least. And when he did, his teams hit franchise peak success. Why do you care about the statistical specifics of a successful approach? Especially one that was almost never employed throughout his career.

feels like a really weird thing to hold against the basketball intellect of someone universally praised for basketball IQ.

Also, if you’re saying John Stockton was too unselfish(which I agree with) isn’t that in fact, a criticism of his decision making and basketball IQ? Or does making the wrong decisions not count when that wrong decision is to pass and let your team be worse than it would be otherwise?

is being unselfish to the detriment of your teams potential a high IQ decision? And if so, what the **** is the point of being high IQ?

Passing up a shot you can make doesn’t make you smart just because it results in better numbers. Making the right play makes you smart. Sometimes the right play is shooting the ball and Stockton too often would not make it.

[Xiao Yao You]

Jason Kidd played for 19 seasons and led 4 teams in shots. Two of them because he was playing lead leading type minutes and the guy who was actually the first option was playing about 30. He was playing more than 41 minutes a game. Per minute four players were taking more shots than he was. He was only really shooting the most on the team for two seasons, and one of them was the best season that team had in the last 45 years and the other one they lost in game seven of the conference finals… when he only took eight shots in 42 minutes.

He wasn’t playing like the first option for about 17 seasons, at least. And when he did, his teams hit franchise peak success. Why do you care about the statistical specifics of a successful approach? Especially one that was almost never employed throughout his career.

feels like a really weird thing to hold against the basketball intellect of someone universally praised for basketball IQ.

Also, if you’re saying John Stockton was too unselfish(which I agree with) isn’t that in fact, a criticism of his decision making and basketball IQ? Or does making the wrong decisions not count when that wrong decision is to pass and let your team be worse than it would be otherwise?

is being unselfish to the detriment of your teams potential a high IQ decision? And if so, what the **** is the point of being high IQ?

Passing up a shot you can make doesn’t make you smart just because it results in better numbers. Making the right play makes you smart. Sometimes the right play is shooting the ball and Stockton too often would not make it.

Easy to say now. At the time Stockton was growing up point guards looked to pass to the open man. That's how I played the game. They weren't expected to score points. If he was coming into the league now he'd likely be a different player or he'd be playing in Spain.

Not a fan of Kidd or Iverson. I know it's difficult for you but that's just the way it's always been and it's not going to change

[3ba11]

What if Larry Nance was top 30 all-time? Wouldn't he be on the list?

Because that's what Pippen was - a Larry Nance-level player that was inflated to top 30 all-time by the winning spotlight

And Pippen developed into a Larry Nance-level player - he didn't enter the league anywhere near that and needed to be in the perfect situation to grow into that player - this makes him even more overrated

[Kblaze8855]

Easy to say now. At the time Stockton was growing up point guards looked to pass to the open man. That's how I played the game. They weren't expected to score points. If he was coming into the league now he'd likely be a different player or he'd be playing in Spain.

Not a fan of Kidd or Iverson. I know it's difficult for you but that's just the way it's always been and it's not going to change

I’m not a fan of Karl Malone, but you won’t catch me saying he couldn’t run the floor which is pretty equivalent to you talking about Jason Kidds basketball IQ as a problem. It’s like not liking Stockton because he wasn’t a good enough playmaker.

if you don’t like a guy just don’t like him. You don’t need to act like his celebrated primary attribute is a weakness.

The extreme extreme vast majority of his career he was not leading his team in shots, and when he did briefly it was the most successful that franchise ever was.

Acting like he wasn’t a smart player because of it is just being contrarian.

everybody is allowed to hate whoever they want. But youre acting like a guy hating on Vince Carter because of a lack of athleticism. What you’re saying just doesn’t compute.

[Kblaze8855]

Oh, and the greatest point guards before the time of Stockton were Bob Cousy who led the NBA in shot attempts on worse shooting than Jason Kidd, Oscar who scored over 30 points a game, Tiny Archibald who scored 34 points a game, Walt Frazier who was a 22/6 combo guard type, and then Magic and Isiah. And Magic was a wing before Stockton came along. The only elite points pre Stockton who were not prone to shoot a lot were…Lenny Wilkens aaaaand…who? Dave Bing was a 27ppg guy. I know you know all about Pistol Pete. Earl Monroe sure as shit wasn’t passing.

The idea that old-school point guards weren’t prone to shoot a lot is nothing but a myth born of a lack of information. Cousy was the prototype and he was first or second in the league in field goal attempts for 4 years in a row.

The great non-shooting Stockton like traditional point guard, people romanticize never actually existed. Every great point guard before Stockton, who wad as talented as he was….scored a great deal. He broke the trend of great point guards the scorers. He wasn’t following some trend.

The points who didn’t score…were the bad ones and role players.

Stockton isn’t a traditional great point. He’s a great point who pioneered playing like he wasn’t.

He isn’t anything close to the old school great points. He’s the better version of old school middling points who couldn’t score. Those who could always did. Because it was the right thing to do.

There is no group of all time elite points before Stockton who didn’t shoot a lot. There is a group of guys like Kevin Porter.

The greats were all bigtime scorers. The other guys were the tier or two below.

Stockton was a tier 1 all time talent who played like a tier 3 Mark Jackson, Rondo, or Kevin Porter and his team would’ve been better if he didn’t.

[Xiao Yao You]

I’m not a fan of Karl Malone, but you won’t catch me saying he couldn’t run the floor which is pretty equivalent to you talking about Jason Kidds basketball IQ as a problem. It’s like not liking Stockton because he wasn’t a good enough playmaker.

if you don’t like a guy just don’t like him. You don’t need to act like his celebrated primary attribute is a weakness.

The extreme extreme vast majority of his career he was not leading his team in shots, and when he did briefly it was the most successful that franchise ever was.

Acting like he wasn’t a smart player because of it is just being contrarian.

everybody is allowed to hate whoever they want. But youre acting like a guy hating on Vince Carter because of a lack of athleticism. What you’re saying just doesn’t compute.

He shot too much for a guy that couldn't shoot. No amount of triple doubles changes that

[Kblaze8855]

He shot too much for a guy that couldn't shoot. No amount of triple doubles changes that


so if he shoots less a team whos first option is Keith Vanhorn is going to defeat a team that has both Shaq and Kobe in their primes? No. Of course not. So what is the tangible real world result of him playing the way you suggest he should have?

I don’t think you actually have anything. I think you just don’t like him. And that I can get behind. He was kind of an asshole. But let’s just leave it at that because you’re complaining about bullshit that I don’t believe even you thinks would’ve changed any significant result.

[Xiao Yao You]

so if he shoots less a team whos first option is Keith Vanhorn is going to defeat a team that has both Shaq and Kobe in their primes? No. Of course not. So what is the tangible real world result of him playing the way you suggest he should have?

I don’t think you actually have anything. I think you just don’t like him. And that I can get behind. He was kind of an asshole. But let’s just leave it at that because you’re complaining about bullshit that I don’t believe even you thinks would’ve changed any significant result.

they didn't beat Shaq and Kobe with him shooting under 40%. I don't like him or the way he played. If you can't shoot pass. Pretty simple. Would work for The Bum but he can't pass either

[SATAN]

Even melting down about Clarkson in non related threads. :biggums:

[Kblaze8855]

Nobody was gonna do it passing to Van Horn. Luckily for Stockton he had an all timer to drop it off to for like 1200 games in a row. Kidd didn’t play with anyone better than him till he was approaching washed. Hell he didn’t play with as good a scorer as Thurl Bailey from like 96 to 05. Bit tougher to pull a champion caliber offense out of Kerry Kittles and KVH instead of Hornacek and Karl Malone.

Kidd absolutely maximized the one team he did the thing you’re most critical of on. It’s clearly just personal. Which as I said is fine. But let’s leave out any basketball based explanations about the intelligence of one of the best basketball minds the game has ever seen.

[Xiao Yao You]

38 % on 16 shots says otherwise

[Reggie43]

Kidd is definitely an overrated scorer. Him taking his team to the Finals and dominating bad teams when the East was at its alltime worst doesnt change that.

Funny thing is if his Nets team were in the West they probably lose in the first round both times because they wouldnt have home court advantage.

[Xiao Yao You]

Kidd is definitely an overrated scorer. Him taking his team to the Finals and dominating bad teams when the East was at its alltime worst doesnt change that.

Funny thing is if his Nets team were in the West they probably lose in the first round both times because they wouldnt have home court advantage.

probably don't make the playoffs in the west

[Overdrive]

Being great in any era under any coach with any teammates is a problem?

No, playing the same way and putting up a 13/11 on 55 statline on let's say the Nets doesn't yield the same team results. At some point the best player has to take over.

Stockton being efficient, but having no take over mentality would've been an issue on teams without a top dog scorer.

[John8204]

I love the disrespect to a guy that gave great numbers to Jeff Malone, Thurl Bailey, and Jeff Hornacek. The fact that people still can't deal with John Stockton's greatest 25 years later is a testament to how underrated he was.

Anywho...top ten overrated players in my eyes

1. Shaq
2. Kevin Durant
3. Dwayne Wade
4. Robert Parish
5. Steve Nash
6. Ray Allen
7. Paul Pierce
8. Paul George
9. Yao Ming
10. Scottie Pippen

[Axe]

Paul george.

[Xiao Yao You]

I love the disrespect to a guy that gave great numbers to Jeff Malone, Thurl Bailey, and Jeff Hornacek. The fact that people still can't deal with John Stockton's greatest 25 years later is a testament to how underrated he was.

Anywho...top ten overrated players in my eyes

1. Shaq
2. Kevin Durant
3. Dwayne Wade
4. Robert Parish
5. Steve Nash
6. Ray Allen
7. Paul Pierce
8. Paul George
9. Yao Ming
10. Scottie Pippen

no better than the Bum. Efficiency means nothing!

[Kblaze8855]

38 % on 16 shots says otherwise

16 shots on 38% shooting(ignoring for now he only shot 16 times per game in one of 19 seasons, but you seem determined to pretend it was the standard) says he did not maximize those net teams? Meaning they were supposed to do what instead of make back to back finals and a game seven of an eastern conference finals? They were supposed to beat the Lakers or Spurs with those teams? You already said no. So…what are you even talking about?

[Kblaze8855]

Kidd is definitely an overrated scorer.




How when you have never heard him called a scorer? He was called Ason Kidd even in his prime. This is another DeRozan situation. You can’t be overrated when everybody says the same thing. At no point of his career was he a highly rated scorer. He played 19 years as a starter and averaged 11 shots a game. He took the same shots per minute as Rajon Rondo. In two different All-Star seasons, he took less shots per minute then Ben Wallace did on the 2004 pistons. At one point Dale Davis shot more per minute than Jason Kidd did in five of his all Star seasons. Dennis Rodman’s peak per minute shot attempts is higher than seven seasons of prime Jason Kidd. Ben Simmons for his career takes more shots per minute than Jason Kidd did…

The man simply did not shoot a lot he just played heavy minutes and was never considered a scorer, despite this downright baffling conversation.

when he was shooting the most he ever did his team had its most success in the last 49 years. Seriously. What the **** are we even talking about right now? We are arguing about someone who shoots as much as Rajon rondo shooting too much when the only time he was leading his team in shot attempts, was that teams peak success of half a century immediately following them winning 26 games led by a much better scorer.

this has to be one of the most ridiculous conversations I’ve ever been in and also a weird one, considering I was here while this was going on and not a single person was complaining about it. Even the many haters he had who felt he was overrated relative to Duncan and shouldn’t have been in the MVP conversation warrant, claiming he was shooting too much or doing anything, but getting the most out of that team. Which by the way nobody even disagrees with unless they feel he should have won the title. And nobody does.

this is an exceptionally meritless argument, even by our standards.

[Reggie43]

How when you have never heard him called a scorer? He was called Ason Kidd even in his prime. This is another DeRozan situation. You can’t be overrated when everybody says the same thing. At no point of his career was he a highly rated scorer. He played 19 years as a starter and averaged 11 shots a game. He took the same shots per minute as Rajon Rondo. In two different All-Star seasons, he took less shots per minute then Ben Wallace did on the 2004 pistons. At one point Dale Davis shot more per minute than Jason Kidd did in five of his all Star seasons. Dennis Rodman’s peak per minute shot attempts is higher than seven seasons of prime Jason Kidd….

The man simply did not shoot a lot he just played heavy minutes and was never considered a scorer, despite this downright baffling conversation.

when he was shooting the most he ever did his team had its most success in the last 49 years. Seriously. What the **** are we even talking about right now? We are arguing about someone who shoots as much as Rajon rondo, and a little more than Ben Wallace, shooting too much when the only time he was leading his team in shot attempts, was that teams peak success of half a century immediately following them winning 26 games live by a much better scorer.

this has to be one of the most ridiculous conversations I’ve ever been in and also a weird one, considering I was here while this was going on and not a single person was complaining about it. Even the many haters he had who felt he was overrated relative to Duncan and shouldn’t have been in the MVP conversation warrant, claiming he was shooting too much or doing anything, but getting the most out of that team. Which by the way nobody even disagrees with unless they feel he should have won the title. And nobody does.

this is an exceptionally meritless argument, even by our standards.

He was called a scorer those 2 years they made the finals dominating flawed teams some with weak guards allowing him to look better than he actually was.

Reggie Miller was called a scorer yet Kidd isnt yet he shot more than Miller for any extended playoff run. Imagine having your team guard him with an oft injured Tinsley and Kevin fkn Ollie. The praise that he got was sickening.

[Kblaze8855]

He was called a scorer those 2 years they made the finals dominating flawed teams some with weak guards allowing him to look better than he actually was.

Reggie Miller was called a scorer yet Kidd isnt yet he shot more than Miller for any extended playoff run. Imagine having your team guard him with an oft injured Tinsley and Kevin fkn Ollie. The praise that he got was sickening.


At no point in his life was Jason Kidd ever considered a scorer. He was considered a player who did whatever his team needed him to do. If Reggie Miller had been a better basketball player, you wouldn’t need to complain about weak defenders on kidd because Reggie would step up and provide excellent defense. But he wasn’t capable of it because he wasn’t a good all-around basketball player. He was an incredible shooter and a good scorer. The difference between those players who are largely useless when they can’t score and Jason Kidd was pointed out all the time during that run before it and after it. Funny enough, Reggie Miller is one of the players most prone to point out how hard it is to make such people ineffective.

Even if Reggie and Kidd both score 31 as they did in that double OT game that probably has you so salty Kidd is likely to do a lot more for his team than Reggie because Reggie can barely dribble, was a marginal passer, and defender.

Reggie could just shoot. And was obviously clutch. Like when Reggie hit the miracle three that replay showed shouldn’t have counted and along with a similar one by Baron Davis forced the adoption of replay checks. That’s what he did.

Jason Kidd did everything but that…except for a while he made the big shots too. Didn’t make him a scorer in the eyes of anyone paying attention or virtually anyone talking about it though.

But he didn’t have to be.

Most scorers were worse at basketball. Like Reggie was.

[Kblaze8855]

That said the long bank shot game was the same game Reggie inexplicably dunked on the whole population of New Jersey two handed right? I think that was my favorite play of his career. That was in my old man Reggie fan era. I think I annoyed some Net fans discussing it here at the time.

I don’t think I was pro nets at the time. I feel like I was heavy on the “Duncan or KG for mvp” thing when Kidd was getting that talk.

[Reggie43]

I remember Miller actually being the best defender on Kidd in that playoff series but at 36 years old he didnt have the stamina to guard him fulltime while scoring 24 a game. Imagine what he would have done to them in his prime...

In what world is a guy scoring 20ppg at his playoff peak not a scorer?

[Kblaze8855]

The same one where Bill Russell scored 20 a game in the playoffs. Nobody is calling him a scorer. Scoring a lot in massive minutes because your team doesn’t have a go to scorer doesn’t mean that’s your play style.

Unrelated but annoying…

Why doesn’t Starbucks have Apple Pay on its app? I assume they want you to buy gift cards which make you return when you have change but…shit. This has to be the company with the most mobile food orders in the world and they have me typing in card numbers like it’s 2008…

[Full Court]

The only one on that list I see as actually overrated is Rondo.

[tpols]

Kidd took the most shots on his team despite not being able to shoot. He was hyped because of triple doubles. Getting a triple double while shooting 5-19 from the floor never did much for me. If you shot less than 40% and took a lot of shots you aren't my type


If your next best offensive option is Kerry kittles you're gonna have to take some extra shots.

Once Kidd got Vince Carter he wasn't taking as many and on Dallas as well. He knew when to defer to better offensive players. Nets didn't have any in the early 2000s. Iverson never deferred even on the stacked Nuggets or Olympic teams. That's the difference.

Would you seriously say Rudy gobert is better than prime Jason Kidd?

:biggums:

That's a ban able offense.

[Axe]

Didn't notice earlier that the cocky prick morant is also on the list. Deserved. :roll:

Anyway i think kyrie should be up there as well, being hyped up as uncle drew in the pepsi commercials before lebron came back to the cavaliers in 2014.

[tpols]

Kidd is definitely an overrated scorer. Him taking his team to the Finals and dominating bad teams when the East was at its alltime worst doesnt change that.

Funny thing is if his Nets team were in the West they probably lose in the first round both times because they wouldnt have home court advantage.

I don't know about that. The Nets used to sweep the Pistons in the early 2000s and were even a hair away from beating the 2004 version that destroyed the Lakers. They were a tough team. And Kidd was totally dominant out there.

[Reggie43]

I respect the old time greats and I think they could play in any era but that is such a weird time numbers wise. Russells playoff high scoring (22ppg)he was playing 48 mins a game while also grabbing 30 rebs, same season Wilt goes for 50ppg. How would those translate in the modern era (80s to present)?

[tpols]

no better than the Bum. Efficiency means nothing!


How when you have never heard him called a scorer? He was called Ason Kidd even in his prime. This is another DeRozan situation. You can’t be overrated when everybody says the same thing. At no point of his career was he a highly rated scorer. He played 19 years as a starter and averaged 11 shots a game. He took the same shots per minute as Rajon Rondo. In two different All-Star seasons, he took less shots per minute then Ben Wallace did on the 2004 pistons. At one point Dale Davis shot more per minute than Jason Kidd did in five of his all Star seasons. Dennis Rodman’s peak per minute shot attempts is higher than seven seasons of prime Jason Kidd. Ben Simmons for his career takes more shots per minute than Jason Kidd did…

The man simply did not shoot a lot he just played heavy minutes and was never considered a scorer, despite this downright baffling conversation.

when he was shooting the most he ever did his team had its most success in the last 49 years. Seriously. What the **** are we even talking about right now? We are arguing about someone who shoots as much as Rajon rondo shooting too much when the only time he was leading his team in shot attempts, was that teams peak success of half a century immediately following them winning 26 games led by a much better scorer.

this has to be one of the most ridiculous conversations I’ve ever been in and also a weird one, considering I was here while this was going on and not a single person was complaining about it. Even the many haters he had who felt he was overrated relative to Duncan and shouldn’t have been in the MVP conversation warrant, claiming he was shooting too much or doing anything, but getting the most out of that team. Which by the way nobody even disagrees with unless they feel he should have won the title. And nobody does.

this is an exceptionally meritless argument, even by our standards.

I had someone tell me they didn't like chris paul on the Warriors the other day because of his poor decisions making and I got put on an ignore list for disagreeing vehemently. That might top this.

[Reggie43]

I don't know about that. The Nets used to sweep the Pistons in the early 2000s and were even a hair away from beating the 2004 version that destroyed the Lakers. They were a tough team. And Kidd was totally dominant out there.

Was Kidd dominant scoring just 10 ppg on 28%fg in 2004 against the Pistons?

He looked good in 2002 and 2003 but when the competition and his teammates got better they didnt win as much and he was scoring less

[tpols]

Was Kidd dominant scoring just 10 ppg on 28%fg in 2004 against the Pistons?

He looked good in 2002 and 2003 but when the competition and his teammates got better they didnt win as much and he was scoring less

That series had games ending in the 50s and 60s point totals. It was a true slugfest. If Kidd wasn't the best defensive and rebounding point guard of all time and a brilliant passer and floor general I would agree with you.

If he was just known as a pure scorer like Iverson or Reggie and produced like that I would agree with you. But he was literally everything outside of that. He could shoot 30% and take over a game.

[Xiao Yao You]

If your next best offensive option is Kerry kittles you're gonna have to take some extra shots.

Once Kidd got Vince Carter he wasn't taking as many and on Dallas as well. He knew when to defer to better offensive players. Nets didn't have any in the early 2000s. Iverson never deferred even on the stacked Nuggets or Olympic teams. That's the difference.

Would you seriously say Rudy gobert is better than prime Jason Kidd?

:biggums:

That's a ban able offense.

Gobert knows his strengths and weaknesses. He's not taking a bunch of shots he's going to make only 40% of the time

[Xiao Yao You]

Gobert certainly might have went to a couple conference finals if he'd been playing in the east and he might win a ring as a role player still. Gobert has a higher offensive and defensive rating all time. Higher defensive Box +/-. More win shares per 48 minutes(Believe that was one where he's ahead of a statue as well). Player efficiency rating goes to Gobert(surprise, surprise!). More DPOTY. Obviously rebounding, blocks, %'s...

[tpols]

Gobert knows his strengths and weaknesses. He's not taking a bunch of shots he's going to make only 40% of the time

If Kidd played with Donovan Mitchell and KAT and Anthony Edward's he wouldn't have had to take shots like that. And if Gobert played on those 20 win net teams he wouldn't even win 30 games. Whether he shot 5 times a game or 20. They'd be lotto. With Kidd they won the whole conference back to back.

The thing that really blows my mind though is how you hate him despite the fact he took a bottom rank defense and turned them #1 overall literally... immediately when he got there. You're a defense guy. No doubt about it. Yet you're here shitting on one of the best defensive players ever. It's incredible, astounding, and perplexing and probably some other words in the English language all at the same time. You're creating a dent in the time space continuum with your hypocrisy here.

[RRR3]

If Kidd played with Donovan Mitchell and KAT and Anthony Edward's he wouldn't have had to take shots like that. And if Gobert played on those 20 win net teams he wouldn't even win 30 games. Whether he shot 5 times a game or 20. They'd be lotto. With Kidd they won the whole conference back to back.

The thing that really blows my mind though is how you hate him despite the fact he took a bottom rank defense and turned them #1 overall literally... immediately when he got there. You're a defense guy. No doubt about it. Yet you're here shitting on one of the best defensive players ever. It's incredible, astounding, and perplexing and probably some other words in the English language all at the same time. You're creating a dent in the time space continuum with your hypocrisy here.
He also loves Chris Webber and says he didn't shoot enough despite Chris Webber being relatively average efficiency wise in his prime (and well below average efficiency wise past his prime). You'd think he'd say Webber should have been passing to the hyper efficient Peja more but nope he was too unselfish according to Xiao. Absolutely zero consistency. He also loves Adrian Dantley and considers him better than Anthony Davis despite supposedly being a defense guy. He just has his favorites and tries to justify it with on court stuff but it's all bullshit.

[RRR3]

If Xiao says "can't quit me here", he admits he eats boogers.

[Xiao Yao You]

If Kidd played with Donovan Mitchell and KAT and Anthony Edward's he wouldn't have had to take shots like that. And if Gobert played on those 20 win net teams he wouldn't even win 30 games. Whether he shot 5 times a game or 20. They'd be lotto. With Kidd they won the whole conference back to back.

The thing that really blows my mind though is how you hate him despite the fact he took a bottom rank defense and turned them #1 overall literally... immediately when he got there. You're a defense guy. No doubt about it. Yet you're here shitting on one of the best defensive players ever. It's incredible, astounding, and perplexing and probably some other words in the English language all at the same time. You're creating a dent in the time space continuum with your hypocrisy here.

I'm a both ends/high iq/unselfish team guy. Kidd taking and missing a bunch of shots to get his triple doubles is something different

[Xiao Yao You]

can't quit me!

[Kblaze8855]

I'm a both ends/high iq/unselfish team guy. Kidd taking and missing a bunch of shots to get his triple doubles is something different

Jason Kidd for his career shot less per game than Ben Simmons in Philly. Did Ben Simmons take “A bunch of shots?” He was an all star talking 8 shots a game. Stocktons lowest attempts in an all star year is higher than Kidds.

Has anyone ever taken the number of shots Kidd took for his career and had it considered a lot? Did you just not see Jason Kidd play basketball most of his career?

[Xiao Yao You]

Jason Kidd for his career shot less per game than Ben Simmons in Philly. Did Ben Simmons take “A bunch of shots?” He was an all star talking 8 shots a game. Stocktons lowest attempts in an all star year is higher than Kidds.

Has anyone ever taken the number of shots Kidd took for his career and had it considered a lot? Did you just not see Jason Kidd play basketball most of his career?

Simmons and Stockton both shot high %'s

[Kblaze8855]

Simmons and Stockton both shot high %'s


Did they shoot a lot?

Its a pretty simple question.

Did Ben Simmons shoot a lot of shots?

Did Rondo?

Kidd has 2 all star seasons shooting less than 04 or 05 Ben Wallace.

Did Ben Wallace shoot a lot?

[Xiao Yao You]

Did they shoot a lot?

Its a pretty simple question.

Did Ben Simmons shoot a lot of shots?

scored 42 on Gobert on 3-7 from the floor!

[Kblaze8855]

Yep gunning ass Ben who shot more than Kidd did in 11 seasons despite playing fewer minutes. Cannot keep those guys from chucking.

[Xiao Yao You]

Yep gunning ass Ben who shot more than Kidd did in 11 seasons despite playing fewer minutes. Cannot keep those guys from chucking.

why wouldn't you want someone that's never shot under 55% shooting? :facepalm

[Reggie43]

Would you guys put Horry on these type of lists? He was a below average starter for most of his rings yet some people think he had hof worthy career. He was extremely smart and clutch but also extremely lucky to have played with Goat level Bigmen

[Overdrive]

Simmons and Stockton both shot high %'s

You're basically the Jazz version of 3ball.

[Overdrive]

Would you guys put Horry on these type of lists? He was a below average starter for most of his rings yet some people think he had hof worthy career. He was extremely smart and clutch but also extremely lucky to have played with Goat level Bigmen

No. At some point it isn't luck anymore. Horry had qualities at a role player price that were crucial for 3 different title winning teams. He sure isn't a HOFer, though.

[Reggie43]

No. At some point it isn't luck anymore. Horry had qualities at a role player price that were crucial for 3 different title winning teams. He sure isn't a HOFer, though.

He was good but which tier of players would you put him into? Not sure if he was that much better than Rick Fox and Derek Fisher if at all.

[Xiao Yao You]

He was good but which tier of players would you put him into? Not sure if he was that much better than Rick Fox and Derek Fisher if at all.

Fox and Fisher at least showed up all year. Horry didn't show up until after the all star break

[Overdrive]

He was good but which tier of players would you put him into? Not sure if he was that much better than Rick Fox and Derek Fisher if at all.

Really tough question. I think he had something in him that at his best made him better than both while on average he was not.

[Reggie43]

Really tough question. I think he had something in him that at his best made him better than both while on average he was not.

Would you say he was at the level of Warriors Iguodala or Bulls Ron Harper along with Fox and Fisher? High IQ roleplayers with tons of intangibles that barely make mistakes.