Reminder: ESPN rated Giannis as a better player than Jokic about 1 month ago

[maxwellcu]

:oldlol::oldlol::oldlol::oldlol:

[FultzNationRISE]

The media is not in the business of telling people what is well known and agreed upon, they're in the business of telling people things they'll argue over.

[elementally morale]

The media is not in the business of telling people what is well known and agreed upon, they're in the business of telling people things they'll argue over.

The media is in the business of telling people what sells most. Some of the time it can be something widely agreed upon... is it sells. Like MJ. Jokic doesn't sell. Giannis... better than Jokic but he could do better. Let's argue then. ;-)

[90sgoat]

Giannis has been overrated for some time.

He's a second tier superstar who had a peak of being a first tier superstar.

[Kblaze8855]

A former employee explained how those rankings work and said it’s something of a composite of individual rankings between players that adds up to like…who is most favored in the most “This guy or that guy” rankings. They don’t like all sit down and whittle out a list and decide who is 1-2-3. You fill out a bunch of things and the numbers are crunched elsewhere to get the rankings.

It isn’t like 30 1-100 lists combined and averaged out. It sounded unnecessarily, intricate, and as has been mentioned, is done exclusively to get you to keep talking about it.

[Kblaze8855]

Giannis has been overrated for some time.

He's a second tier superstar who had a peak of being a first tier superstar.

More like a first tier superstar, who had a Peak of an all time elite. The actual all time elites just do it a few more times.

[90sgoat]

More like a first tier superstar, who had a Peak of an all time elite. The actual all time elites just do it a few more times.

Basically what I was saying.

A lot of first tier superstars though, but compare to Jokic, who is an all time elite.

[SATAN]

Giannis has been overrated for some time.

He's a second tier superstar who had a peak of being a first tier superstar.

:facepalm

[Kblaze8855]

Basically what I was saying.

A lot of first tier superstars though, but compare to Jokic, who is an all time elite.


Just depends how the next ten years goes. Always has. People win and get a good long honeymoon but it takes quite a bit to stay up there. Shaq went from respected journalist writing entire books summarizing why he was the greatest player of all time to quite a few people not even having him top 10. I’m done even going down those paths.

Ill see how it all unfolds.

[Im Still Ballin]

People look down on Giannis' game because it doesn't fit their arbitrary classification of "skilled." He puts up 35 ppg in the Finals - a slow-paced finals, I may add - and they go, "meh." But if Durant does 35 ppg? They'll act more impressed. As if aesthetics are a factor and matter.

[SouBeachTalents]

People look down on Giannis' game because it doesn't fit their arbitrary classification of "skilled." He puts up 35 ppg in the Finals - a slow-paced finals, I may add - and they go, "meh." But if Durant does 35 ppg? They'll act more impressed. As if aesthetics are a factor and matter.
:durantunimpressed: That was literally one of the fastest paced Finals of all time, and even compared to modern series, was the fastest paced Finals of the 2020's so far.

[kawhileonard2]

Its why Lebron is compared to MJ to sell. Once Lebron leaves it won't be compared anywhere. MJ is simply better and widely considered the GOAT. Hell Lebron had the worst finals ratings all time.

[FultzNationRISE]

People look down on Giannis' game because it doesn't fit their arbitrary classification of "skilled." He puts up 35 ppg in the Finals - a slow-paced finals, I may add - and they go, "meh." But if Durant does 35 ppg? They'll act more impressed. As if aesthetics are a factor and matter.

No, it’s because Durant’s done it across numerous playoff runs for his whole career.

Giannis was a terror for one year and more specifically one series, and people act like that’s his playoff baseline.

Without that ONE series, his whole legacy would be different for the same people who are now saying hes an all time great champion. Without that one series people would say he underperforms in the playoffs, second rate star, cant get over the hump. If just one series goes differently.

You cant say that about KD or Kawhi or Butler or even a guy like Luka who’s been around for 30 seconds. Let alone a Lebron or Jokic or Steph. Theyre killers every year theyre healthy. You cant take away one year and say “what else did they ever prove?” Giannis had one great playoff run (and before the finals it wasnt as good as the stats say, he racked up points in some games but in other close games he was fumbling the ball away and clanking shots and looking clumsy).

He hasnt been nearly as impactful in the playoffs over an extended number of years as a lot of other guys. Why people refuse this fact I have no idea.

[FultzNationRISE]

And I hate to always be takin this side of it cuz I actually like the guy as a competitor, but people make him out to be a player he really hasnt consistently proven to be. It’s based on one dominant series that was closer to an anomaly than the norm of his playoff career.

[FultzNationRISE]

And again, you can go back and find conversations from the time where people wondered why Phoenix didnt “build the wall.” It’s not a hindsight critique.

It was considered to have been a decent weapon for at least slowing down/disrupting Giannis to that point in the playoffs, even tho the Bucks managed to squeak through. Phoenix chose not to do it, people questioned it at the time, and he ran wild as a result.

Literally a simple coaching decision by an opponent in one series could have changed the narrative of his whole career. I dont think thats something you can say for anyone else who gets ranked in the same vicinity of the spots I see people putting Greek.

[Kblaze8855]

Giannis was a terror for one year and more specifically one series, and people act like that’s his playoff baseline.



The majority of the hall of fame never played as well in the playoffs as he did the year after they won the ring. They are all timers who don’t have 3 40 point games in their entire playoff career much less three versus the top ranked defense in like a week.

Giannis like Dirk and Jokic and Bill Walton and other players who currently have one ring only won the championship once so far but was an all-time great player both before and after that. A lot of the rest is just coincidence.

And “Why doesn’t everyone guard him with Kwahi Leonard, another DPOY help defender, and an extra guy on top of that forming a wall?” doesn’t suggest what you think it does. The idea that devoting three or four out of five defenders to slow down someone to “only” 23/14/6/3 means that player isn’t special is fairly ridiculous.

I strongly suspect about 95% of the hall of fame has never even had a series like that. But what happens is once you start down the path of disregarding his insane production relative to other legends you kind of have to disregard the insane production of other people in the same league and people don’t want to do that because it takes credit from the people they have a more favorable agenda towards. Everyone has somebody they want to exclude from the fact that all good players performances look better than they historically would, because of the league they play in. But it doesn’t work like that.

The truth is…the whole league is statistically off from the baseline people roughly 30-60 are used to but we pick and choose who to praise when they mostly lose with good numbers(like everyone great today) and who we choose to call ineffective.

The only real way to tell the difference is what “effect” each one was able to achieve and Giannis has done the only thing anyone can. You can question why people who know a lot more about defense than you didn’t simply guard him with 4 people at once because a team with 2 DPOYs did it successfully while he still put up prime KG numbers but fact is teams are more afraid of open threes than a guy running wild in the lane. They will roll the dice that a guy like him won’t give you 50 and make all his free throws.

But he did. So the questions are really over. You can keep asking them like people to this day Question everybody no matter what they have achieved. People are still on here questioning Bill Russell when he only lost one healthy elimination game between 15 and retirement. You can’t convince people who set out to hate that your style is a winning one “merely” by proving it is. Even if you prove it 11 times. So you damn sure can’t do it with 1. Even though 1 is all it factually takes.

He’s just passed that tipping point where criticism goes from “Can’t make the league. To “Can’t be a key player” to “Can’t be your best player”, to “Do it in the playoffs”, to “Can’t win it all” and tops out at “Do it again” which is where the entire argument really falls apart, and people just have to have the maturity to admit being wrong. But most don’t. So even when you do it again they complain about how.

Nothing you can do silences someone who has decided not to be silenced. Russell, Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, and so on had and have thousands of haters. Millions in some cases. People only acknowledge how ridiculous the fans downplaying what can’t be downplayed and hating on the accomplishments of the great players they like are. If you’re also into the downplay, you never see it in yourself.

Giannis mostly lost and is gonna mostly lose. Jokic mostly lost and is going to keep losing. It’s true of everyone but Russell who still gets the same questioning.

it doesn’t really matter because the truth doesn’t matter. Facts don’t matter. Feelings matter. You can play the unemotional role all you want. You just feel like Giannis shouldn’t get the credit he does so you’re not going to give it to him. He’s done the only thing anybody has ever done. Doing it twice isn’t a new thing. History has shown the people who still criticize you after one will still do it after 2…or 4…or 6…or 11. It doesn’t really matter. They just can’t be honest about it.

All you can do is win. There is nothing valid to complain about approach wise after that. It’s all just an unavoidable lack of perfection that has proven to be in a total package that can get it done.

It’s like Messi winning the World Cup. Once he’s got it there’s nothing to legitimately criticize because he’s done everything that matters. All you can do is complain about times he didn’t win which literally goes for everybody.

You have nothing else but “So what…” which you can attach to any success you choose.

The “So what…” people being the only ones left is the end game.

That’s where all greats end up.

It’s the one place greatness can’t rise above because the world of “So what” has only one answer to all accomplishments.

At that point you can chill and let them say it secure in the knowledge that in all human history, there isn’t a single person great enough to have escaped it. You just have to get there. There’s nowhere else to go.

[hold this L]

No, it’s because Durant’s done it across numerous playoff runs for his whole career.

Giannis was a terror for one year and more specifically one series, and people act like that’s his playoff baseline.

Without that ONE series, his whole legacy would be different for the same people who are now saying hes an all time great champion. Without that one series people would say he underperforms in the playoffs, second rate star, cant get over the hump. If just one series goes differently.

You cant say that about KD or Kawhi or Butler or even a guy like Luka who’s been around for 30 seconds. Let alone a Lebron or Jokic or Steph. Theyre killers every year theyre healthy. You cant take away one year and say “what else did they ever prove?” Giannis had one great playoff run (and before the finals it wasnt as good as the stats say, he racked up points in some games but in other close games he was fumbling the ball away and clanking shots and looking clumsy).

He hasnt been nearly as impactful in the playoffs over an extended number of years as a lot of other guys. Why people refuse this fact I have no idea.

He didn't do shit the winning year either. Outside of 3 games, Middleton closed every other game in the playoffs. Literally had one of the greatest clutch scored post seasons in NBA history. But Giannis closed the last game and everyone's goldfish brain only remembers that.

[Im Still Ballin]

He didn't do shit the winning year either. Outside of 3 games, Middleton closed every other game in the playoffs. Literally had one of the greatest clutch scored post seasons in NBA history. But Giannis closed the last game and everyone's goldfish brain only remembers that.

Would you apply that logic to Shaq? Or Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain?

[Im Still Ballin]

Nikola did 30/13/9 on 63% TS in his championship playoff run. Giannis did 30/12/5 on 60% TS.

Roughly +5 rTS% for Nikola and +3 rTS% for Giannis.

It really boils down to superior playmaking, scoring efficiency, and scoring diversity versus superior rim pressure, foul pressure, and defense.

I just don't see that much between them. I can't have a conclusive answer one way or the other.. Purely a matter of stylistic preferences. What team you want to build; what team you have. But I just don't get the hyperbole by some posters acting like Jokic is untouchable here. His game is prettier and I think that's playing a factor.

[Kblaze8855]

Nikola did 30/13/9 on 63% TS in his championship playoff run. Giannis did 30/12/5 on 60% TS.

Roughly +5 rTS% for Nikola and +3 rTS% for Giannis.

It really boils down to superior playmaking, scoring efficiency, and scoring diversity versus superior rim pressure, foul pressure, and defense.

I just don't see that much between them. I can't have a conclusive answer one way or the other.. Purely a matter of stylistic preferences. What team you want to build; what team you have. But I just don't get the hyperbole by some posters acting like Jokic is untouchable here. His game is prettier and I think that's playing a factor.


It’s the “Just won” factor. He’s a perfectly valid pick as the best and nobody should have a problem with it but like everyone he gets a honeymoon bump. Giannis got it. Lebron always did. Kobe. Wade in 06. That’s natural. Not even a basketball thing. That’s just sports and I’m fine with it. Everyone is the man till the next guy is the man. In truth…a small group are “The men” and it’s just in rotation based on circumstances. The only argument is how small the group is at any given moment. It has rarely been one person. It arguably never has been. Nobody has ever been undisputed no matter what anyone claims. Shaq in 2000 wasn’t even undisputed though I don’t personally see why he wasn’t. Jordan wasn’t either though he’d have been close in about 91-92.

It isn’t gonna happen if it didn’t happen then.

[hold this L]

Would you apply that logic to Shaq? Or Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain?
Shaq was a much more physically dominant player with much better foot work to be usable then. Giannis is the most protected player by the refs in the entire league. He's a clumsy ass player that consistently travels or causes offensive fouls that they don't bother calling.

Stop comparing Jokic to Giannis, it's idiotic. Jokic is one of the best playmakers in the league and and elite scorer. He is the point of focus at the end of games, while Giannis is either grabbing a rebound or trying a garbage tier offensive run that usually turns into a TO or a brick. It's hilarious that the Bucks offense tries to turn this guy into a playmaker when he barely has any on court vision or playmaking. At least it justifies him holding the ball as much as he does. Even Giannis monster game this RS is a perfect example of what a fraud he is at the end of the games. Drops 50 in the game, then the last possessions consist of all TOs and massive bricks with 0 ability to create good looks in the last 3 minutes of the game.

[Kblaze8855]

Stop comparing Jokic to Giannis, it's idiotic. Jokic is one of the best playmakers in the league and and elite scorer.



He was also that when he got swept doing 25/13/6 on 48/28/68 shooting numbers vs the same team Giannis gave 50 to win the title against a few weeks later. These evaluations really are as simple as people want to make them.

among the groups of people proven to be able to get you where you need to go being given good, but not overwhelming assistance there is never the difference the fans of each want to pretend there is.

The people who meet that cliché “Can win as best player” standard all require luck and circumstance to actually do it. And all you can really ask is that your superstar be one of those players on a level where when everything comes together they can do the rest.

after that, the difference in what you actually get, is just going to come down to to which ankles got sprained and which group of role players are shooting well for a month.

The shit you’re talking about routinely results in 15 years of failure. There isn’t some epic difference in what the two approaches get done.

[tpols]

Giannis was a terror for one year and more specifically one series, and people act like that’s his playoff baseline.


Exactly. And his team won the weak ECF title without him. And it took an unreal cascade of injuries to even get to that point.

Not to mention the reffing. They gave Giannis more free throws by himself to close the series out than the entire Pheonix Suns team. To a guy whose whole M.O. is running you over aka offensive fouling.

And ever since he's been getting beat by 8 seeds and shit. No other true star would get away with that. Jimmy Butler has humiliated him more than the other way around while playing with less help and no HCA.

[tpols]

Shaq was a much more physically dominant player with much better foot work to be usable then. Giannis is the most protected player by the refs in the entire league. He's a clumsy ass player that consistently travels or causes offensive fouls that they don't bother calling.

Stop comparing Jokic to Giannis, it's idiotic. Jokic is one of the best playmakers in the league and and elite scorer. He is the point of focus at the end of games, while Giannis is either grabbing a rebound or trying a garbage tier offensive run that usually turns into a TO or a brick. It's hilarious that the Bucks offense tries to turn this guy into a playmaker when he barely has any on court vision or playmaking. At least it justifies him holding the ball as much as he does. Even Giannis monster game this RS is a perfect example of what a fraud he is at the end of the games. Drops 50 in the game, then the last possessions consist of all TOs and massive bricks with 0 ability to create good looks in the last 3 minutes of the game.

Shaq got away with some brutal offensive fouling too like 12-6 elbowing mutumbo in the face amongst others in his Finals performances with no calls, but it's commonly assumed when you're in the post you can bang. That's the whole point of the post.

Giannis starts with a live dribble and runs dudes over with a head of steam. That's the definition of a charge. But they will not only let him get away with it 95% of the time, but they'll also penalize the defenders for getting trucked. Which is an absurdity that can't be defended with any assortment of words in the English language.

[Kblaze8855]

Exactly. And his team won the weak ECF title without him. And it took an unreal cascade of injuries to even get to that point.

Not to mention the reffing. They gave Giannis more free throws by himself to close the series out than the entire Pheonix Suns team. To a guy whose whole M.O. is running you over aka offensive fouling.

And ever since he's been getting beat by 8 seeds and shit. No other true star would get away with that. Jimmy Butler has humiliated him more than the other way around while playing with less help and no HCA.


The selective acknowledgment of injuries is wild to me. People say they made the finals without him as if Trae young didn’t get hurt in game three miss a couple games and only make four shots in the entire rest of the series. And the gloss over his injuries, as if his leg wasn’t turned into a cursive C that he shouldn’t have been able to come back from before he came out and dominated anyway. And then talk about him losing after, as if he didn’t have a legendary series without Middleton, and then lose a series where he only played like 90 minutes. Not gonna talk about that.

Nor will we talk about what happened the two years Jokić didn’t have his number two as they got swept by the team Giannis beat for the title , and then lost in five in the first round next season. Which has nothing to do with how good either of them are. It’s just the nature of the sport. no matter how good you think anybody is when they win it’s because of luck and circumstances . You just have to hope you have somebody good enough to get it done when everything else falls into place. Which both of them have factually proven to be.

[tpols]

I'm less focused on injury riddled paths even though it's clear some are worse than others, and more concerned with the way they ref him.

I saw you post a clip the other week of Wilt Chamberlain getting an offensive foul called on him for slightly dipping his shoulder into a defender in the post. If they called it like that today, Giannis would be fouled in the 1st quarter of every game. Thats the part that is unbelievably egregiously offensive to me.

But I've never seen you give an answer for that.

[dankok8]

The majority of the hall of fame never played as well in the playoffs as he did the year after they won the ring. They are all timers who don’t have 3 40 point games in their entire playoff career much less three versus the top ranked defense in like a week.

Giannis like Dirk and Jokic and Bill Walton and other players who currently have one ring only won the championship once so far but was an all-time great player both before and after that. A lot of the rest is just coincidence.

And “Why doesn’t everyone guard him with Kwahi Leonard, another DPOY help defender, and an extra guy on top of that forming a wall?” doesn’t suggest what you think it does. The idea that devoting three or four out of five defenders to slow down someone to “only” 23/14/6/3 means that player isn’t special is fairly ridiculous.

I strongly suspect about 95% of the hall of fame has never even had a series like that. But what happens is once you start down the path of disregarding his insane production relative to other legends you kind of have to disregard the insane production of other people in the same league and people don’t want to do that because it takes credit from the people they have a more favorable agenda towards. Everyone has somebody they want to exclude from the fact that all good players performances look better than they historically would, because of the league they play in. But it doesn’t work like that.

The truth is…the whole league is statistically off from the baseline people roughly 30-60 are used to but we pick and choose who to praise when they mostly lose with good numbers(like everyone great today) and who we choose to call ineffective.

The only real way to tell the difference is what “effect” each one was able to achieve and Giannis has done the only thing anyone can. You can question why people who know a lot more about defense than you didn’t simply guard him with 4 people at once because a team with 2 DPOYs did it successfully while he still put up prime KG numbers but fact is teams are more afraid of open threes than a guy running wild in the lane. They will roll the dice that a guy like him won’t give you 50 and make all his free throws.

But he did. So the questions are really over. You can keep asking them like people to this day Question everybody no matter what they have achieved. People are still on here questioning Bill Russell when he only lost one healthy elimination game between 15 and retirement. You can’t convince people who set out to hate that your style is a winning one “merely” by proving it is. Even if you prove it 11 times. So you damn sure can’t do it with 1. Even though 1 is all it factually takes.

He’s just passed that tipping point where criticism goes from “Can’t make the league. To “Can’t be a key player” to “Can’t be your best player”, to “Do it in the playoffs”, to “Can’t win it all” and tops out at “Do it again” which is where the entire argument really falls apart, and people just have to have the maturity to admit being wrong. But most don’t. So even when you do it again they complain about how.

Nothing you can do silences someone who has decided not to be silenced. Russell, Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, and so on had and have thousands of haters. Millions in some cases. People only acknowledge how ridiculous the fans downplaying what can’t be downplayed and hating on the accomplishments of the great players they like are. If you’re also into the downplay, you never see it in yourself.

Giannis mostly lost and is gonna mostly lose. Jokic mostly lost and is going to keep losing. It’s true of everyone but Russell who still gets the same questioning.

it doesn’t really matter because the truth doesn’t matter. Facts don’t matter. Feelings matter. You can play the unemotional role all you want. You just feel like Giannis shouldn’t get the credit he does so you’re not going to give it to him. He’s done the only thing anybody has ever done. Doing it twice isn’t a new thing. History has shown the people who still criticize you after one will still do it after 2…or 4…or 6…or 11. It doesn’t really matter. They just can’t be honest about it.

All you can do is win. There is nothing valid to complain about approach wise after that. It’s all just an unavoidable lack of perfection that has proven to be in a total package that can get it done.

It’s like Messi winning the World Cup. Once he’s got it there’s nothing to legitimately criticize because he’s done everything that matters. All you can do is complain about times he didn’t win which literally goes for everybody.

You have nothing else but “So what…” which you can attach to any success you choose.

The “So what…” people being the only ones left is the end game.

That’s where all greats end up.

It’s the one place greatness can’t rise above because the world of “So what” has only one answer to all accomplishments.

At that point you can chill and let them say it secure in the knowledge that in all human history, there isn’t a single person great enough to have escaped it. You just have to get there. There’s nowhere else to go.

Amazing post!

I'm a huge Jokic fan (happen to be a Serbian Canadian) and I consider him slightly better than Giannis but it's not clear cut. Giannis' edge on defense is arguably bigger than Jokic' edge on offense. Just calling a spade a spade. Both are legends who have proven themselves by winning.

[Kblaze8855]

I'm less focused on injury riddled paths even though it's clear some are worse than others, and more concerned with the way they ref him.

I saw you post a clip the other week of Wilt Chamberlain getting an offensive foul called on him for slightly dipping his shoulder into a defender in the post. If they called it like that today, Giannis would be fouled in the 1st quarter of every game. Thats the part that is unbelievably egregiously offensive to me.

But I've never seen you give an answer for that.

what do you mean you’ve never seen me give an answer? In the very topic you just brought up where I posted it I said if they call Giannis like that, he simply couldn’t play in the league. There’s a difference between acknowledging facts and acting like such things matter in the real world. if you call ball handling rules like it’s 1960 Kyrie has 19 turnovers a game. But they don’t. It’s an irrelevant part of evaluating a player in a league that doesn’t play by those rules. You can only be evaluated by the game your league plays.

what you might be if a wizard could transport you through time can be an interesting discussion, but it is not relevant to reality.

Threepeat Shaq could not exist 40 years earlier. Doesn’t mean three peat Shaq wasn’t exactly as effective as he was in the league he did play in. It just makes across era comparisons hard. A lot of things do. We just all get defensive when they seem to suggest a player we like isn’t as good as he appears to be but want to talk about it all day when it’s somebody we don’t like. I just try to be real about all of it.

I have always said he and Durant couldn’t be what they are if they didn’t just decide tall people can carry because it’s hard for them to be ballhandlers without it and obviously he can’t score as much if you didn’t let him be so physical. It’s also obvious the leagues great ball handler’s couldn’t play the way they do, and a lot of the moves drilled into young players would be illegal before the league manufactured the bullshit zero step. All true and all equally irrelevant unless you’re trying to compare today’s players to the greats of the past which at the moment I am not doing, but you have always seen me explain is difficult for these very reasons. never once have you seen me leave Giannis out of that.

The problem is people only want to selectively acknowledge it, and act like a certain degree of illegality should be ignored when the selective enforcement of rules is exactly how we got here in the first place. You might not be comfortable acknowledging it, but both Giannis and Jokic foul out of a game in the 60s. And both of them have blatantly illegal foot work by those standards. And both of them carry the ball by those standards. But you want to have a whole thing on what you would you consider very illegal and downplay the mildly illegal but as I said, that kind of favoritism is how we got here. An honest assessment of how they called the game when it wasn’t about entertainment? All these people would be unplayable 50 years ago without severe changes. I just don’t mind saying it about the people I like while a lot of you don’t want to.

Can’t call half a foul or half a travel.

Almost everyone out today are playing the game the league allows not the game as it was called before they cared who liked it.

[hold this L]

Shaq got away with some brutal offensive fouling too like 12-6 elbowing mutumbo in the face amongst others in his Finals performances with no calls, but it's commonly assumed when you're in the post you can bang. That's the whole point of the post.

Giannis starts with a live dribble and runs dudes over with a head of steam. That's the definition of a charge. But they will not only let him get away with it 95% of the time, but they'll also penalize the defenders for getting trucked. Which is an absurdity that can't be defended with any assortment of words in the English language.

That's what I mean. Not only do they not call the charge, they also penalize the other players. As for Shaq and any big man, as you said that's very common.

[maxwellcu]

there are a lot of words in this thread.

most of them come from one particular poster.

that verbose poster is equivocating jokic and giannis because jokic lost a playoff series in which both mpj and murray were out.

dumbest thing i've ever read.

if you think giannis and joker are comparable you're either blind or an idiot.

[Im Still Ballin]

Did you know that Giannis was double teamed more than anyone last season? And that Milwaukee scored at a blistering 1.27 PPP during these possessions, reflective of his competent playmaking. Antetokoumpo is an excellent scorer who, despite lacking the diversity of other top scorers, commanded more defensive attention than any.

Jokic's defensive limitations are more of a concern and are easier to exploit than Giannis' lack of offensive range and diversity. I feel confident in saying that.

[dankok8]

Jokic's defensive limitations are more of a concern and are easier to exploit than Giannis' lack of offensive range and diversity. I feel confident in saying that.

I don't know. Denver was quite good on defense in the playoffs and Jokic himself was at least solid, likely even great in the Finals on defense. That sounds overblown to me as well.

But I agree that exploiting Giannis isn't straightforward either. You can back off and let him shoot but he'll counter that by just getting a post up in the paint then turn around and face up much closer to the basket. Your best bet is he will just shoot and mostly miss when you give him space... LOL. Shot selection hurts him a bit.

Also I find that durability is a bigger problem for Giannis than people talk about. Injured in the business end of 2020 and 2023 postseasons and missing two games in 2021 too. That's three from five since he entered his prime.

[Jasper]

Giannis has been overrated for some time.

He's a second tier superstar who had a peak of being a first tier superstar.:facepalm

u all know ppg boards per game same as joker ... his dimes r down because of coach griff

[Jasper]

name the last second tier superstar scored 50 in a finals game 6 to win the trophy??


wait - name a first tier player

lmfao

[red1]

giannis is a top-2 player in the league


he cant shoot but doesnt need to when he's literally like shaq inside the paint. he's pretty much a center pretending to be a wing player.


plus he's a dominant help defender



thats not such a bad call by ESPN

[red1]

Did you know that Giannis was double teamed more than anyone last season? And that Milwaukee scored at a blistering 1.27 PPP during these possessions, reflective of his competent playmaking. Antetokoumpo is an excellent scorer who, despite lacking the diversity of other top scorers, commanded more defensive attention than any.

Jokic's defensive limitations are more of a concern and are easier to exploit than Giannis' lack of offensive range and diversity. I feel confident in saying that.

in the playoffs they'll have giannis inside and dame on the perimeter


I think its a wrap for the east. only the celtics can challenge them in the playoffs.

[Jasper]

people watch giannis's layups , which are often.

but I watch his pretty turn around fade that akeem has taught him.

[ILLsmak]

Shaq went from respected journalist writing entire books summarizing why he was the greatest player of all time to

1. Not having Shaq top10 is hating.

2. This sentence was funny cuz it got me thinking Shaq was a respected journalist writing about how he was the greatest player of all time. It's like musta missed that.

You're starting to write like me! Well, I don't dangle stuff like that, but I have mad confusing sentences, too.

-Smak