A Stain on Pop and David Robinson:

[ILLsmak]

So, Pop was somewhere in the front office during this, I forgot, really. He was still handling duties. I put this on him because he was trying to "discipline" and battle for control, and he failed.

David Robinson, who many people consider an amazing player (like GOAT level center) and Pop who many people consider an amazing coach (like GOAT level coach) had Dennis Rodman who was definitely a headcase and unhappy, but I was watching some highlights of him during that time, and it's not like he wasn't going IN. They had a good team around him, too, and they ended up having to fold Dennis into Will Perdue and serve the Bulls 3 more rings.

It's something that we all (who were alive then lool) remember, but I don't think it gets enough attention. The fact that neither of these two individuals could cope with having Rodman on their team and find a way to get wins is pretty sad. Pop fails as a mentor type. David fails as a teammate. When you get someone like Rodman, you can't let him know he is pushing your buttons. It's more like "pick your battles." Having a problem child is tough, but when you have a team that is good enough to get to the Finals, it's crazy that you would give him to a team that can win 72 games with him.

Of course, they were rewarded with a tank year where they got TD, and it's all history, but I just want you all to remember. POP could not get Rodman in line. David, who I know respected Dennis on court, just couldn't handle it. We're talking about a guy who gets the ball and gives it to you, maybe shoots a 3 when he's really mad. Or pushes the break. He could have been rehabilitated, and he was still an all-nba level impact player. They traded him for NOTHING and created another dynasty. Not saying the Bulls wouldn't have found a way, but it wouldn't have been that easy.

-Smak

[SouBeachTalents]

Didn’t read.

Also, you haven’t posted on GimmeThat in a while.

[Xiao Yao You]

So, Pop was somewhere in the front office during this, I forgot, really. He was still handling duties. I put this on him because he was trying to "discipline" and battle for control, and he failed.

David Robinson, who many people consider an amazing player (like GOAT level center) and Pop who many people consider an amazing coach (like GOAT level coach) had Dennis Rodman who was definitely a headcase and unhappy, but I was watching some highlights of him during that time, and it's not like he wasn't going IN. They had a good team around him, too, and they ended up having to fold Dennis into Will Perdue and serve the Bulls 3 more rings.

It's something that we all (who were alive then lool) remember, but I don't think it gets enough attention. The fact that neither of these two individuals could cope with having Rodman on their team and find a way to get wins is pretty sad. Pop fails as a mentor type. David fails as a teammate. When you get someone like Rodman, you can't let him know he is pushing your buttons. It's more like "pick your battles." Having a problem child is tough, but when you have a team that is good enough to get to the Finals, it's crazy that you would give him to a team that can win 72 games with him.

Of course, they were rewarded with a tank year where they got TD, and it's all history, but I just want you all to remember. POP could not get Rodman in line. David, who I know respected Dennis on court, just couldn't handle it. We're talking about a guy who gets the ball and gives it to you, maybe shoots a 3 when he's really mad. Or pushes the break. He could have been rehabilitated, and he was still an all-nba level impact player. They traded him for NOTHING and created another dynasty. Not saying the Bulls wouldn't have found a way, but it wouldn't have been that easy.

-Smak

No it just makes MJ and Phil look that much better. He was great his first year with the Bulls and trouble that no one else could have won with the last two

[ralph_i_el]

Sometimes it's hard to show up and work every day with a huge asshole. The Bulls were already used to that :lol

[Reggie43]

Even the Bulls had a hard time dealing with his antics so its understandable if another team cant keep him in check.

Pretty sure Jordan wouldnt have won anything either if he has to rely on Rodman as the second best player on his team.

[L.Kizzle]

Huh, they won 55 and 62 games (West Finals in 95.)
For comparison, the 89 Pistons won 63 games.
You're not going to win a championship with Rodman as your 2nd best player.

[Jasper]

rodman doesn't follow god daily ,,, while pop and Robinson prey every day.

[ILLsmak]

Huh, they won 55 and 62 games (West Finals in 95.)
For comparison, the 89 Pistons won 63 games.
You're not going to win a championship with Rodman as your 2nd best player.

Yeah, man, the idea is that they gave him up for nothing. I don't think you can say that they couldn't have won with him. It's contradictory. Rodman isn't the kind of player you put on the best list. They just needed more scoring prol, nah they needed Will Perdue, right. haha. Elliot was ok. They needed someone instead of Vinny prol.

They couldn't handle him in the sense that they couldn't deal with him on the team and had to give him up for nothing. They won 60 without him, too, so I mean the team was set. Who knows if all that stuff goes down the way it does in year 2 if he was properly managed.

From book:

The biggest problem in San Antonio was Gregg Popovich, the general manager. He wanted to be the coach and the general manager. He stood around and held Bob Hill's (Spurs' coach) hand every day, saying, "Okay, you've got to do this now. It's time for you to listen to me."

"Mr. Military was going to make me a good little boy, a good soldier. He lost sight of everything else, and then when he decided he couldn't do anything with me, he badmouthed me and gave me away for next to nothing. Then he pretended it was good for the team".

-Smak

[Spurs m8]

Lol who actually cares.

Pop cbf babying a selfish man-baby and it got him TD and 5 rings.

The horror

[ShawkFactory]

What Phil and the Bulls did with Rodman was unprecedented. They would literally let him miss games to go on benders.

It's not a stain that the Spurs didn't foresee that that was the answer. The Bulls were good enough to where they could afford to have him out occasionally during the regular season.

[ILLsmak]

What Phil and the Bulls did with Rodman was unprecedented. They would literally let him miss games to go on benders.



It was just different, and that's the point. The Spurs couldn't figure it out. If you have a method and it doesn't work, if you have to cash the guy out because you won't give him space, that's kinda a failure.

We're not talking about someone like Demarcus Cousins, we're talking about a guy who is almost all positive impact on the court (except for some 'events') someone who is way more of a net positive than Draymond. Like I said, all-nba impact. They served him to the best team in the NBA to threepeat. Sure, they got it back with TD, but there is no correlation between the two events haha.

-Smak

[ImKobe]

It just shows you the difference between Pop & Phil.

[meat]

the Spurs did figure it out. They realized winning was not worth putting up with this emo alcoholic asshole. They turned out alright

[Xiao Yao You]

More luck than figuring anything out. Robinson getting hurt and winning the lottery changed their fortune forever

[ShawkFactory]

It was just different, and that's the point. The Spurs couldn't figure it out. If you have a method and it doesn't work, if you have to cash the guy out because you won't give him space, that's kinda a failure.

We're not talking about someone like Demarcus Cousins, we're talking about a guy who is almost all positive impact on the court (except for some 'events') someone who is way more of a net positive than Draymond. Like I said, all-nba impact. They served him to the best team in the NBA to threepeat. Sure, they got it back with TD, but there is no correlation between the two events haha.

-Smak

My point was that the Bulls could afford to figure it out. The Spurs were not in the same position as a franchise.

[ILLsmak]

My point was that the Bulls could afford to figure it out. The Spurs were not in the same position as a franchise.

That's where I kinda disagree, though. The Spurs were better than you think. If you keep Rodman and he plays OK, I can't see how they don't beat the Jazz and play Bulls in Finals. Karl doesn't wanna play Rodman haha. Nobody on Utah or Chi can check Robinson. Not saying the Spurs would beat the Bulls in Finals, but it would be a big difference. Who would they get as their big then? Rodman / Robinson front line is actually outstanding. Yeah, he does have issues... but the Bulls didn't figure it out, either. Rodman had awful moments, remm him kicking the cameraman? Head butting the ref?

Phil said to Rodman, "Dennis, do you wanna be a Chicago Bull?" and Rodman said, "I don't give a ****" or something like that, and Phil was like... welcome to the Bulls! I dunno. I feel like you guys are missing something I'm saying. I feel like you're soft if you let someone like Rodman affect you too much. Of course, he even affected MJ. I think MJ went to pick him up in Vegas haha. Rodman has issues, but his impact is championship level, and since Robinson could get 30 and their role players were coming into it, they possibly could have done a lot better. The Bulls DEF wouldn't have been the force they were. Like I said they basically sold the league because they couldn't deal with this dude.

-Smak

[Xiao Yao You]

That's where I kinda disagree, though. The Spurs were better than you think. If you keep Rodman and he plays OK, I can't see how they don't beat the Jazz and play Bulls in Finals. Karl doesn't wanna play Rodman haha. Nobody on Utah or Chi can check Robinson. Not saying the Spurs would beat the Bulls in Finals, but it would be a big difference. Who would they get as their big then? Rodman / Robinson front line is actually outstanding. Yeah, he does have issues... but the Bulls didn't figure it out, either. Rodman had awful moments, remm him kicking the cameraman? Head butting the ref?

Phil said to Rodman, "Dennis, do you wanna be a Chicago Bull?" and Rodman said, "I don't give a ****" or something like that, and Phil was like... welcome to the Bulls! I dunno. I feel like you guys are missing something I'm saying. I feel like you're soft if you let someone like Rodman affect you too much. Of course, he even affected MJ. I think MJ went to pick him up in Vegas haha. Rodman has issues, but his impact is championship level, and since Robinson could get 30 and their role players were coming into it, they possibly could have done a lot better. The Bulls DEF wouldn't have been the force they were. Like I said they basically sold the league because they couldn't deal with this dude.

-Smak

Rodman was a shit show his last two years on the Bulls. A testament to Phil and GOAT

[ShawkFactory]

That's where I kinda disagree, though. The Spurs were better than you think. If you keep Rodman and he plays OK, I can't see how they don't beat the Jazz and play Bulls in Finals. Karl doesn't wanna play Rodman haha. Nobody on Utah or Chi can check Robinson. Not saying the Spurs would beat the Bulls in Finals, but it would be a big difference. Who would they get as their big then? Rodman / Robinson front line is actually outstanding. Yeah, he does have issues... but the Bulls didn't figure it out, either. Rodman had awful moments, remm him kicking the cameraman? Head butting the ref?

Phil said to Rodman, "Dennis, do you wanna be a Chicago Bull?" and Rodman said, "I don't give a ****" or something like that, and Phil was like... welcome to the Bulls! I dunno. I feel like you guys are missing something I'm saying. I feel like you're soft if you let someone like Rodman affect you too much. Of course, he even affected MJ. I think MJ went to pick him up in Vegas haha. Rodman has issues, but his impact is championship level, and since Robinson could get 30 and their role players were coming into it, they possibly could have done a lot better. The Bulls DEF wouldn't have been the force they were. Like I said they basically sold the league because they couldn't deal with this dude.

-Smak

Fair points.

I know the Spurs were good though. But there’s a huge difference between a normal good team like say the current Celtics and a team that just got the GOAT back and very recently 3 peated. Even if they are comparably good in that moment, the state of the franchises were very different.

Also, things like this are why Phil was so great. He and Pop were both incredible but in very different ways. Pop couldn’t do what Phil did there but there are things Pop did that I don’t think Phil could do.

It’s a product of circumstance and one guys strength working out in this particular case.

[ILLsmak]

Fair points.

I know the Spurs were good though. But there’s a huge difference between a normal good team like say the current Celtics and a team that just got the GOAT back and very recently 3 peated. Even if they are comparably good in that moment, the state of the franchises were very different.

Also, things like this are why Phil was so great. He and Pop were both incredible but in very different ways. Pop couldn’t do what Phil did there but there are things Pop did that I don’t think Phil could do.

It’s a product of circumstance and one guys strength working out in this particular case.

Yeah, I mean, it's controversial in that I'm not saying it means Pop and Drob were bad, but it is something you have to take into account. I think Pop is a little too rigid, though. Phil had TEX and you can always have a staff guy who does your plays. Pop is def a good people guy, but he really isn't ready to handle guys who are like NO. Phil studied people, I think. It's not too hard to make people feel like they are in charge, though, and even let them act out. Pop and Drob were just not ready to deal with something like that.

Rodman was weird in his last 2 years as a bull @ prev post, but like I often say, I watched those games. A lot of the time it was like Oh, Dennis... but he was still out there balling. He did get a lot of Rebs, still, but he's not a stat guy. He def did start losing it near then end, though. I still doubt they beat the Jazz without Dennis on Malone tho. He took 16 3s in 96-97 playoffs. Haha. Dude was def clowning. I think winning 72 games was boring to him.

-Smak