We need to see Jokic without today's spaced-out, beginner format

[3ba11]

He's on pace for the GOAT PER but is that a function of mastering today's beginner format where all 10 players are outside the 3-point line (spacing), while also bullying today's soft, coddled, non-physical Americans in spaced-out iso coverage?

or could he still get whatever he wanted in previous eras where all 10 guys were inside the 3-point line (no spacing) and allowed to be physical?

[Kblaze8855]

We really don’t. And it’s not going to be “today’s” format. It’s probably going to be the format for the next 8000 years. In time everything before the three-point Revolution will probably be looked at as the dead ball era.

All the GOATs before now will be Ty Cobb and Honus Wagner being compared to Albert Pujols and Ken Griffey Junior. They’ll have the higher status from the old timers who don’t care about home runs and all.

But normal fans won’t care.

[SaltyMeatballs]

Jokic would thrive in any era with his skillset of great footwork, post moves, outside shooting, playing back to the basket, and incredible vision/passing ability. I think Jokic in the 90s and early 2000s of the NBA would be what Arvydas Sabonis was in Europe during his prime

[tontoz]

Seriously Jokic put up big numbers when MPJ and Murray were both out for the season. His 2nd option was Will Barton. OP must be off his meds again.

[3ba11]

We really don’t. And it’s not going to be “today’s” format. It’s probably going to be the format for the next 8000 years. In time everything before the three-point Revolution will probably be looked at as the dead ball era.

All the GOATs before now will be Ty Cobb and Honus Wagner being compared to Albert Pujols and Ken Griffey Junior. They’ll have the higher status from the old timers who don’t care about home runs and all.

But normal fans won’t care.


To accurately judge Jokic's ability compared to players in previous eras, we need to see them play in a similar format - the closest thing is the international game where Jokic averaged single-figures (9 ppg or 11 ppg), while MJ was at 15 and 17 ppg

[3ba11]

Jokic would thrive in any era with his skillset of great footwork, post moves, outside shooting, playing back to the basket, and incredible vision/passing ability. I think Jokic in the 90s and early 2000s of the NBA would be what Arvydas Sabonis was in Europe during his prime


I think he just bullies today's soft players and a lot of that wouldn't fly in previous eras

I don't think he would reach Bird's numbers in the 80's

[FireDavidKahn]

Some of ya'll are so delusional. GOAT level players would dominate in any era. Jokic would be just as dominant in any ERA as he is now.

[tontoz]

You know a guy is really dominant when screwball makes a thread to discredit him.

[3ba11]

You know a guy is really dominant when screwball makes a thread to discredit him.


that's fair.. His numbers are insane this year - he has goat-level IQ - I'll give him that - he can beat this mickey mouse format like a drum.. but it wouldn't be so easy in prior eras.

[tontoz]

that's fair.. His numbers are insane this year - he has goat-level IQ - I'll give him that - he can beat this mickey mouse format like a drum.. but it wouldn't be so easy in prior eras.

It's not easy now. If it was there would be several other guys doing it.

[Phoenix]

I was wondering when OP would start spamming threads about Jokic.

[3ba11]

It's not easy now. If it was there would be several other guys doing it.


Jokic is actually a league leader in defensive BPM and defensive WS - these stats are based on team performance, so this actually explains his record WS/48, BPM, and PER

When we take out the defensive component and just look at offensive BPM and WS, we see that others are up there with him like Curry and Haliburton.. And the top 10 players in the league average 27 ppg or more, so everyone is infact doing it..

[tontoz]

Jokic is actually a league leader in defensive BPM and defensive WS - these stats are based on team performance, so this actually explains his record WS/48, BPM, and PER

When we take out the defensive component and just look at offensive BPM and WS, we see that others are up there with him like Curry and Haliburton.. And the top 10 players in the league average 27 ppg or more, so everyone is infact doing it..

The season just started so any stats have to be kept in that context. They've only played 11 games.

We have several full season of Jokic playing at an elite level that other guys can't match. Jokic's game is more than just ppg which you would obviously focus on as a Kobe stan. Jokic has led the league in so many advanced stats I can't remember them all. He actually led the league in TS last year which is virtually impossible for a 1st option scorer.

[3ba11]

The season just started so any stats have to be kept in that context. They've only played 11 games.

We have several full season of Jokic playing at an elite level that other guys can't match. Jokic's game is more than just ppg which you would obviously focus on as a Kobe stan. Jokic has led the league in so many advanced stats I can't remember them all. He actually led the league in TS last year which is virtually impossible for a 1st option scorer.


Yes it's truly remarkable that an unathletic donut boy with small strides can completely ragdoll the current format.. Makes you wonder about the current format

[tontoz]

Yes it's truly remarkable that an unathletic donut boy with small strides can completely ragdoll the current format.. Makes you wonder about the current format

No it doesn't. I've already seen the size + skills + bbiq = domination scenario. His name was Larry Bird.

[RRR3]

OP is terrified Jokic will pass MJ in PER lmao

[ralph_i_el]

To accurately judge Jokic's ability compared to players in previous eras, we need to see them play in a similar format - the closest thing is the international game where Jokic averaged single-figures (9 ppg or 11 ppg), while MJ was at 15 and 17 ppg

Jokic averaged 22mpg putting those numbers up. He wasn't staying in to run up the score on bums.

[FireDavidKahn]

Jokic is actually a league leader in defensive BPM and defensive WS -these stats are based on team performance, so this actually explains his record WS/48, BPM, and PER

When we take out the defensive component and just look at offensive BPM and WS, we see that others are up there with him like Curry and Haliburton.. And the top 10 players in the league average 27 ppg or more, so everyone is infact doing it..

The people who created DBPM literally said it isn't reliable as a defensive stat since it only counts stats that are readily available (box score stats)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm2.html


There are limitations on all box score stats – if the box score doesn't measure a particular contribution, a box-score-based metric can only approximate that contribution. This is not a great hindrance on the offensive side, as nearly everything of importance on offense is captured by the box score (only missing things like screen-setting), but on defense the box score is quite limited. Blocks, steals, and rebounds, along with what little information offensive numbers yield about defensive performance are all that is available. Such critical components of defense as positioning, communication, and the other factors that make Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan elite on defense can't be captured, unfortunately.

What does this mean? Box Plus/Minus is good at measuring offense and solid overall, but the defensive numbers in particular should not be considered definitive. Look at the defensive values as a guide, but don't hesitate to discount them when a player is well known as a good or bad defender.

Given that Jokic is a terrific rebounder that will HEAVILY positively influence his DBPM despite him being a turnstile on defense.

[tontoz]

The people who created DBPM literally said it isn't reliable as a defensive stat since it only counts stats that are readily available (box score stats)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm2.html



Given that Jokic is a terrific rebounder that will HEAVILY positively influence his DBPM despite him being a turnstile on defense.

If he was a turnstile on D then Denver wouldn't have been 3rd in defensive efficiency in last year's playoffs.

I would say that defensive metrics overrate his D because of his rebounding but at the same time he isn't as bad as people like you claim.

[FireDavidKahn]

If he was a turnstile on D then Denver wouldn't have been 3rd in defensive efficiency in last year's playoffs.

I would say that defensive metrics overrate his D because of his rebounding but at the same time he isn't as bad as people like you claim.

However you want to rate him, he isn't close to being the best defender in the league or anywhere close to making an all-nba defensive.

"Turn stile" may be hyperbole but the dude isn't "good" on defense.

[tontoz]

However you want to rate him, he isn't close to being the best defender in the league or anywhere close to making an all-nba defensive.

"Turn stile" may be hyperbole but the dude isn't "good" on defense.


I would rate him as average to a little below average if we dont take into account rebounding. He can contest shots effectively because of his size and he is usually in good position because of his court awareness. If he isn't in good position to contest he will let guys go to avoid fouls.

[sdot_thadon]

I think we need to see him with the women's 3 point line instead too. No way he could make one of those consistently lol.

[SouBeachTalents]

So you’re just going to do this for every ATG player that comes along for the rest of your life?

You’re a fakkit :lol

[tpols]

Jokic would probably look like even more of an Alien in past eras.

7 foot 290 lb centers of the past couldn't shoot a 3 (or a jumper in general) to save their life. And Jokic is elite in the post too and a true heavyweight. Hakeem is giving up like 50 lbs to Yolk. And isn't even a quarter of a passer or shooter.

Jokic is literally a 7 foot almost 300 lb Larry Bird. If Bird had success back then, Yolk would only have more. There's nothing he does worse than Bird and he's bigger to boot.

[Kblaze8855]

Jokic would probably look like even more of an Alien in past eras.

7 foot 290 lb centers of the past couldn't shoot a 3 (or a jumper in general) to save their life. And Jokic is elite in the post too and a true heavyweight. Hakeem is giving up like 40 lbs to Yolk. And isn't even a quarter of the passer.

Jokic is literally a 7 foot almost 300 lb Larry Bird. If Bird had success back then, Yolk would only have more. There's nothing he does worse than Bird and he's bigger to boot.


Jokic isn’t nearly as quick as Bird was. He’s in his prime and he moves like 90s Bird. Birds whiteness always made his quickness underrated.

If Jokic moved like Bird you’d have to legalize tasers to stop him.

[SATAN]

I was wondering when OP would start spamming threads about Jokic.

He's getting nervous

[3ba11]

Jokic would probably look like even more of an Alien in past eras.

7 foot 290 lb centers of the past couldn't shoot a 3 (or a jumper in general) to save their life. And Jokic is elite in the post too and a true heavyweight. Hakeem is giving up like 50 lbs to Yolk. And isn't even a quarter of a passer or shooter.

Jokic is literally a 7 foot almost 300 lb Larry Bird. If Bird had success back then, Yolk would only have more. There's nothing he does worse than Bird and he's bigger to boot.


Jokic is almost never in a situation where he has to defend a high-scoring big for many possessions in a row on the post.. The game isn't played that way anymore and the rare times that he DOES face this like when he faces Embiid, he isn't dominating the same way and gets outplayed..

So the reason why Embiid and Jokic have the best stats in the NBA is because they're the only high-scoring centers and otherwise beat up on shrimps and dominate a little man's game and format - they almost never have a big matchup that puts them on an island against a high-scoring big for many possessions in a row - today's game makes them move their feet on screen rolls but they don't have a big matchup every night where all the attention is on that matchup and it determines the game.. This is draining and would reduce their offensive capacity.. in addition to rarely having to defend high-scoring bigs, they don't have to bang and compete for rebounds like they would in prior eras.. Essentially, they would have less energy in prior eras from the banging and being FEATURED defensively on every possession.. we saw hakeem make robinson look like you or me out there, so what would he do to Jokic - Jokic isn't accustomed to having to defend a high-scoring big on many possessions and doesn't dominate the same way he faces this like vs Embiid.

[elementally morale]

that's fair.. His numbers are insane this year - he has goat-level IQ - I'll give him that - he can beat this mickey mouse format like a drum.. but it wouldn't be so easy in prior eras.

If anything, Jokic is a bit worse this year so far than he was last year. He had several games with subpar shooting, his threes in general are not falling and his assists are not highlight reel worthy either. He is great but saying he is doing it 'this year' means you are not watching him. Hopefully he is becoming his real self as the season marches on. Right now he is 'okay, very good', which is still the best in the league. But he has yet another gear.

[3ba11]

If anything, Jokic is a bit worse this year so far than he was last year. He had several games with subpar shooting, his threes in general are not falling and his assists are not highlight reel worthy either. He is great but saying he is doing it 'this year' means you are not watching him. Hopefully he is becoming his real self as the season marches on. Right now he is 'okay, very good', which is still the best in the league. But he has yet another gear.


Will he dominate Embiid this year?

He usually doesn't and that's what he would face in the 80's and 90's

He would face a high scoring big every night where all the attention is on that matchup and it determines the game.. This is a drain that he doesn't face today except against Embiid, who he struggles against..

So Jokic would have less energy for offense in prior eras due to being FEATURED defensively on every possession against a high-scoring big, while also being drained from having to bang and compete for rebounds much harder than today's game..

So if we look at his numbers vs Embiid - those would be his numbers in the 80's where he would face high-scoring bigs every night and face that attrition battle that he doesn't have to face today.. he gets to dominate shrimps and play in a spaced-out, no-contact game

[elementally morale]

Will he dominate Embiid this year?

He usually doesn't and that's what he would face in the 80's and 90's

He would face a high scoring big every night where all the attention is on that matchup and it determines the game.. This is a drain that he doesn't face today except against Embiid, who he struggles against..

So Jokic would have less energy for offense in prior eras due to being FEATURED defensively on every possession against a high-scoring big, while also being drained from having to bang and compete for rebounds much harder than today's game..

So if we look at his numbers vs Embiid - those would be his numbers in the 80's where he would face high-scoring bigs every night and face that attrition battle that he doesn't have to face today.. he gets to dominate shrimps and play in a spaced-out, no-contact game

I think you hoped you'd get a serious response. Go on, type another 4-5 paragraphs.

[3ba11]

I think you hoped you'd get a serious response. Go on, type another 4-5 paragraphs.


no need to get mad about it.. maybe jokic can play well against Embiid this year and show me that he can still be as dominant in the 80's or 90's.. otherwise, it seems like when he's the featured defensive matchup like he would be in the 80's, he doesn't have as much energy for offense and doesn't play as well

[elementally morale]

no need to get mad about it.. maybe jokic can play well against Embiid this year and show me that he can still be as dominant in the 80's or 90's

There is a possibility Jokic doesn't want to convince you, personally. I sure don't. You have your own issues to deal with and I won't be standing in the way. As for me, you can think whatever you want.

https://media.licdn.com/dms/image/C5622AQGooPiENVJjWQ/feedshare-shrink_800/0/1678447821637?e=1700697600&v=beta&t=vD5w3Sznk4PPy0faZdL_fM7iUvUlN7L419Nb160zKGY

[3ba11]

There is a possibility Jokic doesn't want to convince you, personally. I sure don't. You have your own issues to deal with and I won't be standing in the way. As for me, you can think whatever you want.

https://media.licdn.com/dms/image/C5622AQGooPiENVJjWQ/feedshare-shrink_800/0/1678447821637?e=1700697600&v=beta&t=vD5w3Sznk4PPy0faZdL_fM7iUvUlN7L419Nb160zKGY


Wow you started out with regular responses and then got mad.. chin up bud..

[ShawkFactory]

Well we won’t see it. So looks like we’ll have to do the same thing with him as any other player in any sport who didn’t play at the same time as another guy.

Oh well.

[3ba11]

Well we won’t see it. So looks like we’ll have to do the same thing with him as any other player in any sport who didn’t play at the same time as another guy.

Oh well.


Actually, we can estimate Jokic's stats in the 80's and 90's by looking at his numbers vs high-scoring bigs like Embiid, which he rarely faces in today's game but would face on a nightly basis in prior eras.. He simply isn't as dominant when he's facing a high-scoring big where this defensive matchup is featured and decides the game - he would be drained in prior eras just like he is against Embiid, and therefore would have less capacity for offense... Embiid and Jokic have the best stats in the league because there's no competition at their position and they essentially dominate a league of shrimps, softies and open space (no real compeition for rebounds - no banging and grinding like prior eras)

[tontoz]

Actually, we can estimate Jokic's stats in the 80's and 90's by looking at his numbers vs high-scoring bigs like Embiid, which he rarely faces in today's game but would face on a nightly basis in prior eras.. He simply isn't as dominant when he's facing a high-scoring big where this defensive matchup is featured and decides the game - he would be drained in prior eras just like he is against Embiid, and therefore would have less capacity for offense... Embiid and Jokic have the best stats in the league because there's no competition at their position and they essentially dominate a league of shrimps, softies and open space (no real compeition for rebounds - no banging and grinding like prior eras)


Why don't you list all the centers from the 80s and 90s with the size and mobility of embiid. I will start the list for you:

SHAQ

[NBAGOAT]

I can promise you jokic would rather bang in the post with average centers(most of his competition won’t be close to hakeem or shaq) than chase around guys on the perimeter. It’s brutal playing defense as a center now. Someone like gobert is considered the a goat defensive center if he plays in any other era but this is only era where he gets blame for a guard putting up 40(not saying he shouldn’t either).

By your logic about jokic/embiid mj would do worse in this era when he’s guarding a star guard/wing every other night. That’s obviously not true however

[3ba11]

Why don't you list all the centers from the 80s and 90s with the size and mobility of embiid. I will start the list for you:

SHAQ


they don't have to be as good as Embiid... The format in the 80's and 90's ran offense through a big man, so Jokic would be the featured defender every night who is responsible for containing the best players in the league (mostly bigs).

That's a stark contrast to today where there's no competition at his position, so most nights he's free to run roughshod without having the featured matchup and massive defensive responsibility that previous eras required.

That's why his performance against Embiid is very reflective of how he would perform in that era.. We all remember when Hakeem made Robinson look like you or me, so what would he do to Jokic - Jokic would be a massive liability that might have to be benched in numerous games.. Again, the main reason that Embiid and Jokic have the best stats in the league is because there's no comp at their position.

For example, a guy like Jack Sikma would be getting the rock every time down on an island and it would be the featured matchup that the game depended on - Jokic would be required to play good individual defense and also bang hard for rebounds with 9 other guys in the paint - this format would wear him down and leave him less capacity for offense.. there wouldn't be any more running roughshod against a bunch of guards with no bigs to test him

[ArbitraryWater]

Why?

Every payer today is a product of its era.

Just ike every 80s and 90s payer was a product of that era.


Can we see MJ without a 3 pt shot in todays 3pt heavy era?

No, itd be dumb to ask

[3ba11]

Why?





Because there's no competition at his position in today's game, so him and Embiid run roughshod with the best stats in the league against garbage matchups every night..

Meanwhile, rebounds require little energy or physical force due to open space inside 3-point line... So between the tough matchups that Jokic would have every night and also the more physically-taxing rebounding, Jokic would be worn down and have less capacity for offense in previous eras than he enjoys in today's easy game.. It would look similar to him facing Embiid, where he gets destroyed - he's worn down from the featured matchup and therefore has less capacity for offense.








Can we see MJ without a 3 pt shot in todays 3pt heavy era?





the stats show that MJ always shot at today's standard when he took 3+ attempts.. :confusedshrug:

Since he always shot at today's standard when he had 3+ attempts WITHOUT practice, he would obviously shoot even better in today's game with the hyper-focus and practice of the shot.

Specifically, MJ shot 36.4% in regular season games where he had 3+ attempts from 85-93'.. This increased to 39% in the playoffs during the same time period.. He also had seasons where he had 3 attempts in 1990 (38%).. He had an entire title run where he had 4 attempts on 39% (1993) or the 92' Finals (43% on 5 attempts).

So again, since he always shot at today's standard when he had 3+ attempts WITHOUT practice, he would obviously shoot even better in today's game with the hyper-focus and practice of the shot.

Btw, guys like SGA, Luka and Lebron aren't good at threes, yet they're considered among the league's best players and all-time players.. So Jordan wouldn't even need to shoot well, yet he always did at 3+ attempts.. Great form shoots better at higher volumes.

[Phoenix]

We aren't going to see Joker playing outside of this format. This is the league he plays in. Judge him by 2023 standards against his contemporaries instead of trying to shoehorn a MJ comparison into every ****ing thing. Would be a nice change of pace. We're 3/4 of the way towards a century of NBA basketball. The passage of time elapsed between Michael Jordan entering the league and Jokic in 2023 is the same amount of time as Jordan entering the league and World War two. These comparisons of players 40 years apart are only becoming more and more meaningless.

[tontoz]

they don't have to be as good as Embiid... The format in the 80's and 90's ran offense through a big man, so Jokic would be the featured defender every night who is responsible for containing the best players in the league (mostly bigs).

That's a stark contrast to today where there's no competition at his position, so most nights he's free to run roughshod without having the featured matchup and massive defensive responsibility that previous eras required.

That's why his performance against Embiid is very reflective of how he would perform in that era.. We all remember when Hakeem made Robinson look like you or me, so what would he do to Jokic - Jokic would be a massive liability that might have to be benched in numerous games.. Again, the main reason that Embiid and Jokic have the best stats in the league is because there's no comp at their position.

For example, a guy like Jack Sikma would be getting the rock every time down on an island and it would be the featured matchup that the game depended on - Jokic would be required to play good individual defense and also bang hard for rebounds with 9 other guys in the paint - this format would wear him down and leave him less capacity for offense.. there wouldn't be any more running roughshod against a bunch of guards with no bigs to test him



Exactly. There were no high scoring bigs like Embiid in the 80s. Shaq was the only one in the 90s and Shaq certainly wasn't that interested in contesting jump shots.

The typical centers back then were lightweights compared to Embiid. They would have no chance trying to guard jokic.

[ShawkFactory]

Actually, we can estimate Jokic's stats in the 80's and 90's by looking at his numbers vs high-scoring bigs like Embiid, which he rarely faces in today's game but would face on a nightly basis in prior eras.. He simply isn't as dominant when he's facing a high-scoring big where this defensive matchup is featured and decides the game - he would be drained in prior eras just like he is against Embiid, and therefore would have less capacity for offense... Embiid and Jokic have the best stats in the league because there's no competition at their position and they essentially dominate a league of shrimps, softies and open space (no real compeition for rebounds - no banging and grinding like prior eras)

Sure sure.

[dankok8]

Maybe OP is right or maybe he's wrong... We'll never know. Let's rate players relative to their own eras. If you want to say that Bird was more dominant in his era than Jokic is in his, I would listen to that argument but claiming that Jokic wouldn't dominate back then (or conversely that Bird wouldn't dominate today) are hypotheticals that don't interest me. Even if the hypothetical is very likely true (i.e. Curry would be worse in the 60's because no 3pt line) it's still meaningless. Players should only be compared relative to their own eras. Likelihood is, if any player grew up in a different era, they would have a different skill set and style too and benefit or get hindered by the medicine, training etc. of that era. Too many factors to account for...

[Duffy Pratt]

they don't have to be as good as Embiid... The format in the 80's and 90's ran offense through a big man, so Jokic would be the featured defender every night who is responsible for containing the best players in the league (mostly bigs).

That's a stark contrast to today where there's no competition at his position, so most nights he's free to run roughshod without having the featured matchup and massive defensive responsibility that previous eras required.

That's why his performance against Embiid is very reflective of how he would perform in that era.. We all remember when Hakeem made Robinson look like you or me, so what would he do to Jokic - Jokic would be a massive liability that might have to be benched in numerous games.. Again, the main reason that Embiid and Jokic have the best stats in the league is because there's no comp at their position.

For example, a guy like Jack Sikma would be getting the rock every time down on an island and it would be the featured matchup that the game depended on - Jokic would be required to play good individual defense and also bang hard for rebounds with 9 other guys in the paint - this format would wear him down and leave him less capacity for offense.. there wouldn't be any more running roughshod against a bunch of guards with no bigs to test him

Ewing, Bol, Laimbeer, Divac, Ronny Seikaly, Daugherty, Duckworth, Jon Konak, Oliver Miller, Mourning, Shaq (rookie), Ervin Johnson, Muresan, Mutombo, Ostertag, Michael Cage, Rick Smits.

That’s a list of all the centers the Bulls faced during their championship runs. Which of these guys were even competent in the post? Ewing, Daugherty, Mourning, Shaq, and Divac. Of those, the only ones who might have a chance of dominating Joker are Ewing and Shaq. But Shaq was a rookie and not yet the monster he would become. The story you are telling about the 90s is largely false. Almost none of these teams ran their offenses through their centers.

Joker’s biggest weakness is his lateral motion, which makes it hard for him to guard the high pick and roll against mobile wings. But do you really think that he would have been less successful in that era than, say, Laimbeer??? He’s too smart. Any good coach would figure out a way to fit him into a good scheme. You’ll need to come up with better arguments why Jordan’s PER is the only one that really counts.

[Micku]

Maybe OP is right or maybe he's wrong... We'll never know. Let's rate players relative to their own eras. If you want to say that Bird was more dominant in his era than Jokic is in his, I would listen to that argument but claiming that Jokic wouldn't dominate back then (or conversely that Bird wouldn't dominate today) are hypotheticals that don't interest me. Even if the hypothetical is very likely true (i.e. Curry would be worse in the 60's because no 3pt line) it's still meaningless. Players should only be compared relative to their own eras. Likelihood is, if any player grew up in a different era, they would have a different skill set and style too and benefit or get hindered by the medicine, training etc. of that era. Too many factors to account for...

This is so true.

We only know what they could do in their respective era. Just transferring them into a different, you would factor in that the training is different, nutritional is viewed differently, different medicine, different philosophy of playing ball and what is considered to be effective basketball, and etc. While I do think Jokic has the skills to be great in any era, like almost all great players, we can only view how dominant they are in their own era.

[90sgoat]

It's impossible to say what would happen because of different playstyles, but my gut feeling is that he won't suffer much.

You don't even need to have him guard the opposing big man. You can run with two centers like how Pacers ran with Smits and Dale Davis or Sac-Town a little later with C-Webb and Divac or D-Rob and Duncan, Hakeem and Sampson.

He might lose a few rebounds, a few assists, but in a slower game, where each possession matters more, he becomes even more dangerous.

[Phoenix]

Maybe OP is right or maybe he's wrong... We'll never know. Let's rate players relative to their own eras. If you want to say that Bird was more dominant in his era than Jokic is in his, I would listen to that argument but claiming that Jokic wouldn't dominate back then (or conversely that Bird wouldn't dominate today) are hypotheticals that don't interest me. Even if the hypothetical is very likely true (i.e. Curry would be worse in the 60's because no 3pt line) it's still meaningless. Players should only be compared relative to their own eras. Likelihood is, if any player grew up in a different era, they would have a different skill set and style too and benefit or get hindered by the medicine, training etc. of that era. Too many factors to account for...

I've said this 100 times on here and these bullshit what ifs still surface. Nobody transported 40 years into another era plays as they did in their own time, for all the reasons you list, so these hypotheticals are inherently stupid, not even fun to discuss for kicks. It's dumb....

[StrongLurk]

OP has been really slow to mention Jokic...should've started making his braindead threads about Jokic years ago.

[tontoz]

OP has been really slow to mention Jokic...should've started making his braindead threads about Jokic years ago.

I think it is Jokic's PER that triggered him.

[StrongLurk]

I think it is Jokic's PER that triggered him.

I've been making threads about Jokic for years. It's not just his PER that is GOAT level, he has a lot of other GOAT level "stats" since 2021.

But I also mentioned that we really shouldn't compare anything happening 2021 and after to previous eras. We are definitely in a "new" era and need to look at who will be the "new" GOATS coming up. Lebron, KD, and Steph, even though they are still elite and competing, are not really defined by this new era.

The guys who are fighting for top legacy are Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Luka in my opinion.

[tpols]

Actually, we can estimate Jokic's stats in the 80's and 90's by looking at his numbers vs high-scoring bigs like Embiid, which he rarely faces in today's game but would face on a nightly basis in prior eras.. He simply isn't as dominant when he's facing a high-scoring big where this defensive matchup is featured and decides the game - he would be drained in prior eras just like he is against Embiid, and therefore would have less capacity for offense... Embiid and Jokic have the best stats in the league because there's no competition at their position and they essentially dominate a league of shrimps, softies and open space (no real compeition for rebounds - no banging and grinding like prior eras)


We just saw Jokic play a 27/14 AD and 28/10/10 Lebron and not only beat them, but he ****ing swept them. :lol

There's no "attrition" battle Jokic is losing. You could hang 40 or 50 on him and still lose. His offense is that GOAT. No center from the past is averaging 10 dimes a game and a sniper from every inch on the court. A lot of them could barely even hit a free throw.

You've actually got it backwards. The inefficient 2pt scoring, lack of shooting both on court and from the stripe, and lack of passing ability of centers of the past is so dwarfed by Yolks ability there's nothing they would be able to do to keep up. Even if they shot 65% from the field their poor foul shooting, 3pt shooting, and mediocre 2-3 dimes a game passing ability would allow Jokic to easily outpace them. It's like comparing Derozan to Curry. Derozan is nice and has 2pt skills, but curry will always outpace him because his game is evolved behind simple iso 2pt scoring.

The fact that you bring up embiid who is a total joke in the playoffs as some type of Trump card over jokic who is an absolute monster in the playoffs only makes this debate more hilarious.

[3ba11]

We just saw Jokic play a 27/14 AD and 28/10/10 Lebron and not only beat them, but he ****ing swept them. :lol

There's no "attrition" battle Jokic is losing. You could hang 40 or 50 on him and still lose. His offense is that GOAT. No center from the past is averaging 10 dimes a game and a sniper from every inch on the court. A lot of them could barely even hit a free throw.

You've actually got it backwards. The inefficient 2pt scoring, lack of shooting both on court and from the stripe, and lack of passing ability of centers of the past is so dwarfed by Yolks ability there's nothing they would be able to do to keep up. Even if they shot 65% from the field their poor foul shooting, 3pt shooting, and mediocre 2-3 dimes a game passing ability would allow Jokic to easily outpace them. It's like comparing Derozan to Curry. Derozan is nice and has 2pt skills, but curry will always outpace him because his game is evolved behind simple iso 2pt scoring.

The fact that you bring up embiid who is a total joke in the playoffs as some type of Trump card over jokic who is an absolute monster in the playoffs only makes this debate more hilarious.


Peak AD dominated Joker in the bubble and Embiid dominates Joker

And this idea that Joker would average the same assists as today without spacing is absurd - he would average 5 apg like other good-passing bigs did back then - the reality is that Jokic is showing how the bigs of previous eras would dominate more today... Embiid is probably producing less than peak Ewing or Moses in prior eras while Ewing or Moses would get the 30 PER just like Embiid in this era

And no one is talking about "losing" the attrition battle - but the attrition battle would be harder because Jokic would be more worn down defensively by being the featured matchup every night and having to actually compete hard for boards.. this would take away from his offensive capacity

[RRR3]

OP is terrified Jokic will surpass Kobe.

[elementally morale]

OP is terrified Jokic will surpass Kobe.

Jokic is a lot better than Kobe. I was a huge fan of Kobe but it's not really debatable. Greatness is another question as are individual ability and skills. More of a debate. But as basketball is 5 on 5, Jokic being better than Kobe ever was is pretty clear.

[dankok8]

Peak AD dominated Joker in the bubble and Embiid dominates Joker

And this idea that Joker would average the same assists as today without spacing is absurd - he would average 5 apg like other good-passing bigs did back then - the reality is that Jokic is showing how the bigs of previous eras would dominate more today... Embiid is probably producing less than peak Ewing or Moses in prior eras while Ewing or Moses would get the 30 PER just like Embiid in this era

And no one is talking about "losing" the attrition battle - but the attrition battle would be harder because Jokic would be more worn down defensively by being the featured matchup every night and having to actually compete hard for boards.. this would take away from his offensive capacity

2020 when AD won the matchup was pre-prime Jokic. Embiid and Jokic never met in the postseason. Jokic is a vastly better playoff performer.

Jokic is qualitatively a better passer than those other bigs though. Assists don't always reflect playmaking. He'd average less assists without the 3pt shooting and spacing but he'd still be a better playmaker than any big man ever.

If your argument is Jokic would put up lesser stats back then, there's no pushback from me but lesser doesn't mean less than what great players were putting up then.

[RRR3]

Jokic is a lot better than Kobe. I was a huge fan of Kobe but it's not really debatable. Greatness is another question as are individual ability and skills. More of a debate. But as basketball is 5 on 5, Jokic being better than Kobe ever was is pretty clear.
High IQ post.

[tpols]

Jokic is a lot better than Kobe. I was a huge fan of Kobe but it's not really debatable. Greatness is another question as are individual ability and skills. More of a debate. But as basketball is 5 on 5, Jokic being better than Kobe ever was is pretty clear.

I'm one of the bigger Kobe fans here and I agree. Not a lot. But he is better.

Tbh, Jokic might be better than Jordan. He's a better team player and even more prolific production wise individually.

And as gangster as MJ or Kobe were at closing games out, Yolk is even more stoic and locked in. He shows almost no emotion while kicking ass.

[elementally morale]

I'm one of the bigger Kobe fans here and I agree. Not a lot. But he is better.

Tbh, Jokic might be better than Jordan. He's a better team player and even more prolific production wise individually.

And as gangster as MJ or Kobe were at closing games out, Yolk is even more stoic and locked in. He shows almost no emotion while kicking ass.


It is hard defining 'a lot'. Let's say: visibly better. You don't need stats or advanced anything.

I'm a few years older than Kobe and as I was a Laker fan I saw all his career. He was there my whole 'young adult' life. I literally felt becoming middle-aged all of a sudden when he died. So I was a huge fan. He was entertaining and that's something I look for when watching basketball. Many flaws... somehow entertaining flaws to me. At any rate, by the end of his career I lost interest in the Lakers. It started 2 years before his retirement. As I was in the process of finding interesting players to root for I started watching young players more and more. It got me to Embiid and Jokic.

So back on topic: Jokic is entertaining in a different way but not any less entertaining. I wouldn't care as much if he was simply very good. Giannis is. LeBron is/was. I never cared. Saw enough of them to see their game is something I don't really want to watch if I don't have to due to another team or deep playoffs. Jokic is worth watching in the regular season. He is better in the playoffs but his reg season games are entertaining as well. And it seems he is winning with everybody. (Maybe not the championship but winning a lot more than not winning.) He is winning with everybody w/o making it about himself.

I'm not sure if I've ever seen a clear cut better player. He is as good as anyone ever was.

[3ba11]

2020 when AD won the matchup was pre-prime Jokic. Embiid and Jokic never met in the postseason. Jokic is a vastly better playoff performer.

Jokic is qualitatively a better passer than those other bigs though. Assists don't always reflect playmaking. He'd average less assists without the 3pt shooting and spacing but he'd still be a better playmaker than any big man ever.

If your argument is Jokic would put up lesser stats back then, there's no pushback from me but lesser doesn't mean less than what great players were putting up then.


Jokic was pre-prime and now AD is post-prime, so it evens out.

And the reason that Jokic and Embiid easily have the best stats in the league is because they have no competition at their position.. Their energy would be a lot less if they were battling every night in a BIG MAN LEAGUE instead of running roughshod as the only good bigs in a spaced-out game of shrimps.. Again, guys like Jokic and Embiid are merely showing how much better the stats would be in today's game for the great bigs of prior eras.

[Duffy Pratt]

Jokic was pre-prime and now AD is post-prime, so it evens out.

And the reason that Jokic and Embiid easily have the best stats in the league is because they have no competition at their position.. Their energy would be a lot less if they were battling every night in a BIG MAN LEAGUE instead of running roughshod as the only good bigs in a spaced-out game of shrimps.. Again, guys like Jokic and Embiid are merely showing how much better the stats would be in today's game for the great bigs of prior eras.


You keep calling it a big man league, when I posted the bigs Jordan played in the playoffs (on the presumably best teams in the league). Stop promoting myths. Jokić would definitely have had an impossible time dealing with the finesse of Greg Ostertag…

[3ba11]

You keep calling it a big man league, when I posted the bigs Jordan played in the playoffs (on the presumably best teams in the league). Stop promoting myths. Jokić would definitely have had an impossible time dealing with the finesse of Greg Ostertag…


Jokic benefits from playing against teams where the best player is a wing, so he has no matchup to worry about..

But in previous eras, the best player in the team was usually a big man like Jack Sikma, Rony Seikaly, Daughtery, Mutombo or Smits, let alone guys like Shaq, Ewing, Alonzo, Malone, Kemp or Barkley...

So it would be night and day if we put Jokic in a league where he has a featured matchup every night that decides the game, as opposed to today's game where there's no competition at his position - most nights he's free to run roughshod over shrimps without having the featured matchup and massive defensive responsibility that previous eras required..

Having the featured matchup every night that requires great individual defense, along with banging harder for rebounds - these 2 things would wear down Jokic and leave him less capacity for offense (a harder attrition battle)

[ArbitraryWater]

Every payer today is a product of its era.

Just ike every 80s and 90s payer was a product of that era.