Has anyone won a title while leading the league in usage?

[3ba11]

Just wondering if anyone won a title while carrying the league's biggest burden

[SouBeachTalents]

LeBron. 4x.

[3ba11]

LeBron. 4x.


Nonsense - he was 7th in 2016... 11th in 2020... and obviously he didn't lead the league in usage with his Miami super-teams.. he was barely scraping 25 ppg on those runs

[ShawkFactory]

Lol I love how usage is now important. 10 years of arguing otherwise crumbling real quick.

[RRR3]

Lol I love how usage is now important. 10 years of arguing otherwise crumbling real quick.
Got him

[sdot_thadon]

Lol I love how usage is now important. 10 years of arguing otherwise crumbling real quick.

Bang.

[Mask the Embiid]

Probably no one. You would have to play in a extremely weak era to win championships while pretty much being dead tired in every 4th quarter (specially if you play both ways) yet still be better than everyone else.

[Full Court]

Probably no one. You would have to play in a extremely weak era to win championships while pretty much being dead tired in every 4th quarter (specially if you play both ways) yet still be better than everyone else.

Or just be that good.

[Xiao Yao You]

Probably no one. You would have to play in a extremely weak era to win championships while pretty much being dead tired in every 4th quarter (specially if you play both ways) yet still be better than everyone else.

you forgot who OP is. One guy did 5 times

[3ba11]

you forgot who OP is. One guy did 5 times


Boom

One guy in history won titles while carrying the biggest burden in the league - 5 times - a completely different level from everyone else in history

[RRR3]

Lol I love how usage is now important. 10 years of arguing otherwise crumbling real quick.
Snivelly?

[3ba11]

Snivelly?


the usage argument is in addition to the other arguments, not a replacement of those arguments.. so I'm not sure what Shawk is talking about.. another weak deflection

[RRR3]

the usage argument is in addition to the other arguments, not a replacement of those arguments.. so I'm not sure what Shawk is talking about.. another weak deflection
For years you’ve said high usage is bad. Now you’re backtracking. Poor snivelly

[3ba11]

For years you’ve said high usage is bad. Now you’re backtracking. Poor snivelly


i've literally never said that - you're just watching TV perhaps where they say that, but they don't even know what usage is - they think it's ball-domination - it sounds like you do too lol.. yes I've said that ball-domination is bad, but that isn't what usage is.. educate yourself on usage before responding next time.

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs

ish doesn't know what usage is and thinks it's ball-domination.. :confusedshrug:

It isn't ball-domination - it's the percentage of possessions that a player CLOSES, which entails field goal attempts, FT's and turnovers - these are the only things that close possessions.

So with this in mind, only mj won titles while carrying the highest burden (leading league in usage) - the entirety of history is a pretty big sample size to show that this is a big deal

[sdot_thadon]

.
Thread Cliffs

ish doesn't know what usage is and thinks it's ball-domination.. :confusedshrug:

It isn't ball-domination - it's the percentage of possessions that a player CLOSES, which entails field goal attempts, FT's and turnovers - these are the only things that close possessions.

So with this in mind, only mj won titles while carrying the highest burden (leading league in usage) - the entirety of history is a pretty big sample size to show that this is a big deal

So in other words it's shot jacking. Noted.

[3ba11]

So in other words it's shot jacking. Noted.


Only MJ could win titles while closing the most possessions in the league - in all of basketball history, only 1 person has been good enough to do this and he did it 5 times

[3ba11]

https://media.tenor.com/7wXSWbRpzkUAAAAd/job-done-reaction.gif

[sdot_thadon]

Only MJ could win titles while closing the most possessions in the league - in all of basketball history, only 1 person has been good enough to do this and he did it 5 times

Yeah as long as you tell the pistons they can't foul him any more, move the 3pt line to the girls distance and give him by far the best team for a decade lol. Why not. It's the same shit you accuse lebron of constantly just witb chucking rather than dribbling. Potato potahto

[3ba11]

Yeah as long as you tell the pistons they can't foul him any more, move the 3pt line to the girls distance and give him by far the best team for a decade lol. Why not. It's the same shit you accuse lebron of constantly just witb chucking rather than dribbling. Potato potahto


Among the contenders, the Bulls had the thinnest roster of the 90's - every contender had more all-stars and more reputable players.

As for the rules, Lebron benefitted from the hand-check ban, defensive 3 seconds and the more recent changes that banned defense/impeding (the "no impede" rule).. So your post is wrong at every turn because you never watched in the 90's





Yeah as long as you tell the pistons they can't foul him any more, move the 3pt line to the girls distance and give him by far the best team for a decade lol. Why not. It's the same shit you accuse lebron of constantly just witb chucking rather than dribbling. Potato potahto


outside of Ewing and Starks, the Knicks had at least 3 players that were superior to Horace Grant, such as Mason, Mark Jackson, and X-Man, while Oakley and Charles Smith were comparable to Horace.. So the Knicks had a far superior roster that included 5 "horace-caliber players" or better.

And 3rd options in the 90's were either 3x all-stars (Nance, Majerle, Laimbeer, Aguirre) or All-NBA (Schrempf, Mason, Mashburn).. Every contender had far more good players than the Bulls and this is obvious with just a cursory glance at the rosters.. The 92' Blazers had the biggest talent edge, followed by the 93' Suns and 96' Sonics.. The Jazz were the only Finals opponent that didn't have more talent.

[red1]

OP your entire argument is based on a false premise


the bulls supporting cast was the best supporting cast in the league

[red1]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1994.html

[red1]

won 55 games and went to game 7 of the Eastern Conference Semifinals without jordan



that is stacked TO THE MAX

[3ba11]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1994.html


Yes everyone knows that Pippen inherited a 3-peat dynasty but any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent as we saw in 95' before MJ returned..

The Bulls were borderline .500 in 1995 before MJ restored 3-peat caliber in his first full season back.. Pippen literally destroyed a 3-peat dynasty in less than 18 months and was publicly begging MJ to return.

Pippen isn't capable of building a 50-win team from scratch or having a REAL 50-win team that wins 50 every year.. Otoh, real 1st options like Dominique do these things as a standard... Pippen just had a one-off in 94' from inheriting the goat dynasty but quickly fell out of contention in 95' when reality set in.

[SouBeachTalents]

Among the contenders, the Bulls had the thinnest roster of the 90's - every contender had more all-stars and more reputable players.

As for the rules, Lebron benefitted from the hand-check ban, defensive 3 seconds and the more recent changes that banned defense/impeding (the "no impede" rule).. So your post is wrong at every turn because you never watched in the 90's







outside of Ewing and Starks, the Knicks had at least 3 players that were superior to Horace Grant, such as Mason, Mark Jackson, and X-Man, while Oakley and Charles Smith were comparable to Horace.. So the Knicks had a far superior roster that included 5 "horace-caliber players" or better.

And 3rd options in the 90's were either 3x all-stars (Nance, Majerle, Laimbeer, Aguirre) or All-NBA (Schrempf, Mason, Mashburn).. Every contender had far more good players than the Bulls and this is obvious with just a cursory glance at the rosters.. The 92' Blazers had the biggest talent edge, followed by the 93' Suns and 96' Sonics.. The Jazz were the only Finals opponent that didn't have more talent.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXsLLN-WoAASujh.jpg





















https://media.tenor.com/7wXSWbRpzkUAAAAd/job-done-reaction.gif

[red1]

Yes everyone knows that Pippen inherited a 3-peat dynasty but any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent as we saw in 95' before MJ returned..

The Bulls were borderline .500 in 1995 before MJ restored 3-peat caliber in his first full season back.. Pippen literally destroyed a 3-peat dynasty in less than 18 months and was publicly begging MJ to return.

Pippen isn't capable of building a 50-win team from scratch or having a REAL 50-win team that wins 50 every year.. Otoh, real 1st options like Dominique do these things as a standard... Pippen just had a one-off in 94' from inheriting the goat dynasty but quickly fell out of contention in 95' when reality set in.

talent


better supporting roster BY FAR than every other team in the league




best talent and STACKED to the absolute maximum

[red1]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXsLLN-WoAASujh.jpg





















https://media.tenor.com/7wXSWbRpzkUAAAAd/job-done-reaction.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYW00d21oZHh2NWRleXA2aGtjZXYxNTd 2cG5xeDN1bDluYTM1cWFnOSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/l0ErLeqamV3UOARsA/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYW00d21oZHh2NWRleXA2aGtjZXYxNTd 2cG5xeDN1bDluYTM1cWFnOSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/l0ErLeqamV3UOARsA/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYW00d21oZHh2NWRleXA2aGtjZXYxNTd 2cG5xeDN1bDluYTM1cWFnOSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/l0ErLeqamV3UOARsA/giphy.gif

[3ba11]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXsLLN-WoAASujh.jpg





^^^ there's only one 3-peat dynasty up there and your post is a remarkable demonstration of shallow-thinking that yields lack of insight - you're likely surprised at everything that happens and aren't good at predicting things.

For example, you probably thought that the 95' Bulls would win 50 again lol... But the reality was that Pippen inherited a 3-peat dynasty and wasn't capable of building a 50-win team from scratch or having a "real" 50-win team that wins 50 every year..

Real 1st options like Dominique do these things, while Pippen simply inherited the goat dynasty and was borderline .500 in 95' before MJ returned.. This confirmed that any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent as we saw in 95'

[red1]

^^^ there's only one 3-peat dynasty up there and your post is a remarkable demonstration of shallow-thinking that yields lack of insight - you're likely surprised at everything that happens and aren't good at predicting things.

For example, you probably thought that the 95' Bulls would win 50 again lol... But the reality was that Pippen inherited a 3-peat dynasty and wasn't capable of building a 50-win team from scratch or having a "real" 50-win team that wins 50 every year..

Real 1st options like Dominique do these things, while Pippen simply inherited the goat dynasty and was borderline .500 in 95' before MJ returned.. This confirmed that any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent as we saw in 95'

everything you post is irrelevant


because you refuse to acknowledge basic facts


its like arguing with someone that wont agree that 1 + 1 = 2



you wont even agree that pippen was a good player. not even great, just good




the facts disagree with you son. deal with it.

[red1]

great supporting cast. best supporting cast of the time.



how many teams can win 55-games and go game 7 2nd round without their best player?



"buh buh inherited dynasty"


sure. and maybe they also just had good players: :oldlol:


https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1994.html

[SouBeachTalents]

^^^ there's only one 3-peat dynasty up there and your post is a remarkable demonstration of shallow-thinking that yields lack of insight - you're likely surprised at everything that happens and aren't good at predicting things.

For example, you probably thought that the 95' Bulls would win 50 again lol... But the reality was that Pippen inherited a 3-peat dynasty and wasn't capable of building a 50-win team from scratch or having a "real" 50-win team that wins 50 every year..

Real 1st options like Dominique do these things, while Pippen simply inherited the goat dynasty and was borderline .500 in 95' before MJ returned.. This confirmed that any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent as we saw in 95'
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXsLLN-WoAASujh.jpg

[3ba11]

everything you post is irrelevant


because you refuse to acknowledge basic facts


its like arguing with someone that wont agree that 1 + 1 = 2



you wont even agree that pippen was a good player. not even great, just good





Was Pippen capable of building a 50-win team from scratch or having a REAL 50-win team that wins 50 every year?

Yes or no

The bulls were nothing in 95', so it was just a fluke from being the defending 3-peat champs and having zero expectation or pressure and also the unique situation of having chip on shoulder.. But once the no-expectation period and honeymoon was over, the REAL bulls were nothing in 95' and heading to the bottom very fast without MJ..

But sure, casual fans that are wrong about everything will only look at the surface of 55 wins come to erroneous conclusions about this one-off (while ignoring the playoff embarrassment and collapse)

[hateraid]

Lol I love how usage is now important. 10 years of arguing otherwise crumbling real quick.

Lol, facts

[3ba11]

Lol, facts


you guys are confusing usage with ball-domination.. I've always said that ball-domination is bad, but that isn't usage.

so you guys are just wrong and can't respond to the facts (or simply concede), so you're regurgitating this already-debunked nonsense

[red1]

Was Pippen capable of building a 50-win team from scratch or having a REAL 50-win team that wins 50 every year?

Yes or no

The bulls were nothing in 95', so it was just a fluke from being the defending 3-peat champs and having zero expectation or pressure and also the unique situation of having chip on shoulder.. But once the no-expectation period and honeymoon was over, the REAL bulls were nothing in 95' and heading to the bottom very fast without MJ..

But sure, casual fans that are wrong about everything will only look at the surface of 55 wins come to erroneous conclusions about this one-off (while ignoring the playoff embarrassment and collapse)

the argument isnt whether or not pippen can build a team from scratch, you ****ing imbecile


the argument is that the bulls had the best talent on their roster


and you refuse to acknowledge basic facts


pippen was all-nba first team in 1995 you moron - thanks for bringing that year up :oldlol:


and you flipflop and deflect after every argument and spam the same shit over and over

[3ba11]

the argument isnt whether or not pippen can build a team from scratch, you ****ing imbecile


the argument is that the bulls had the best talent on their roster





The bolded is where your thinking falls short of gaining the proper insight - teams win games due to talent AND/OR chemistry-strategy (brand of ball)

The 94' Bulls clearly won via the latter, which is why it was a one-off that they couldn't sustain without more talent as we saw in 1995 (when the honeymoon and no-pressure surprise factor was gone).

Ultimately, the bulls had to 3-peat with MJ before they could win 55 without him (in a no-pressure one-off)

[3ba11]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXsLLN-WoAASujh.jpg


What did the Bulls do in 95'?.. Pippen simply inherited a 3-peat dynasty in 94' for a one-off regular season and then playoff collapse - he wasn't capable of building a 50-win team from scratch or having a "real" 50-win team that wins 50 every year..

Real 1st options like Dominique do these things, while Pippen simply inherited the goat dynasty that he reduced to borderline .500 in 95' before MJ returned.. This confirmed that any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent as we saw in 95'

[Axe]

What did the Bulls do in 95'?.. Pippen simply inherited a 3-peat dynasty in 94' for a one-off regular season and then playoff collapse - he wasn't capable of building a 50-win team from scratch or having a "real" 50-win team that wins 50 every year..

Real 1st options like Dominique do these things, while Pippen simply inherited the goat dynasty that he reduced to borderline .500 in 95' before MJ returned.. This confirmed that any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent as we saw in 95'
What did jordan do without scottie pippen eh, andrew?

[3ba11]

What did jordan do without scottie pippen eh, andrew?

well eh, Muhammed, Jordan needed nothing to win 40 games in 1987 or 50 games in 1988, while Lebron won 40 in 2005 with an all-star center, or 50 in 2006 with an all-star center, HOF coach and 22/5/5 all-defender acquisition..

To summarize, Jordan needed literally nothing to win 40 or 50 games, while Lebron needed far more help to win 40 games (East all-star center) or 50 games (all-star center, HOF coach, 22/5/5 all-defender)

[Duffy Pratt]

Since inheriting a dynasty is so important, just imagine how great the Celtics must have been after Russell retired (34-48).

[3ba11]

Since inheriting a dynasty is so important, just imagine how great the Celtics must have been after Russell retired (34-48).


Those Celtics lost top 75 player Sam Jones in addition to Russell and they were already on their last legs in 1969 with Russell.. Russell also stepped down as the team's coach after winning titles in 68' and 69' - Heinsohn took over as rookie coach with a new system that developed into a title team by 74'... Also HOF Tom Sanders missed 30 games in 70'

So the team completely changed for the worse in 1970 and started over with new coach and system, while the 94' Bulls kept the same system/coach and upgraded literally every roster spot outside of their top 3 guys - everyone else from the 4 through 12 spots was new and upgraded replacement

Ultimately, 55 games in the regular season and then massive collapse in the playoffs and the following season isn't anything to write home about - the dynasty had completely crumbled by the time MJ returned - the Bulls were headed downwards in 95' and would've been lottery in 96' without MJ instead of champion.. Any team with Pippen as the 1st option will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent like we saw in 95', even a 3-peat dynasty

And if Pippen was good, then why didn't he turn around Houston in 99'?.. It's because he was nothing outside the system - 14 ppg outside the system in 89' and 99'