Better player: Jokic or Kobe?

[RRR3]

It came up in another thread so let’s see what ISH thinks.

[tontoz]

Where is the poll? I vote for Jokic.

[RRR3]

Where is the poll? I vote for Jokic.
It’s up now.

[3ba11]

Defense - Kobe
Clutch - Kobe
Scoring - Kobe
Brand of ball/team ceiling - equal

[SouBeachTalents]

It's not even a knock on Kobe, but this is clearly Jokic, he's a GOAT tier talent.

[RRR3]

Defense - Kobe
Clutch - Kobe
Scoring - Kobe
Brand of ball/team ceiling - equal
How on earth was Kobe a better scorer? Chucking up more shots doesn’t make you a better scorer.

[RRR3]

It's not even a knock on Kobe, but this is clearly Jokic, he's a GOAT tier talent.
3ball voting for Kobe is just the nail in the coffin too.

[ArbitraryWater]

What dumbass voted for Kobe

[tontoz]

What dumbass voted for Kobe


Do you really need to ask? :oldlol:

[ShawkFactory]

How on earth was Kobe a better scorer? Chucking up more shots doesn’t make you a better scorer.

I’ll allow the scoring one. But Kobe more clutch? Nah. They’re equal at worst.

[RRR3]

I’ll allow the scoring one. But Kobe more clutch? Nah. They’re equal at worst.
Jokic could easily be argued to be the best scorer in the league he just is extremely unselfish. No one can guard him.

[PeroAntic]

Kobe has such a complex legacy that puts him on a different plane making any comparison invalid. Sure statwatchers will look and say Jokic is more efficient and for them its the end all be all. But Kobe has 5 rings and he played basketball like it was supposed to be played. If I could choose to be Kobe or Jokic in terms of basketball skillset I wouldn't hesitate for a second to be Kobe.

[RRR3]

Kobe has such a complex legacy that puts him on a different plane making any comparison invalid. Sure statwatchers will look and say Jokic is more efficient and for them its the end all be all. But Kobe has 5 rings and he played basketball like it was supposed to be played. If I could choose to be Kobe or Jokic in terms of basketball skillset I wouldn't hesitate for a second to be Kobe.
You would also probably take Carmelo over LeBron, so...

[FultzNationRISE]

Kobe has such a complex legacy that puts him on a different plane making any comparison invalid. Sure statwatchers will look and say Jokic is more efficient and for them its the end all be all. But Kobe has 5 rings and he played basketball like it was supposed to be played. If I could choose to be Kobe or Jokic in terms of basketball skillset I wouldn't hesitate for a second to be Kobe.

This is an "I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul" type post.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe has such a complex legacy that puts him on a different plane making any comparison invalid. Sure statwatchers will look and say Jokic is more efficient and for them its the end all be all. But Kobe has 5 rings and he played basketball like it was supposed to be played. If I could choose to be Kobe or Jokic in terms of basketball skillset I wouldn't hesitate for a second to be Kobe.


This dude was lowkey ashamed writing this

"well, Kobe has 5 rings, and skillset, you know?"

[Jasper]

kobe was a hof'er.

joker - all world.

/

[Jasper]

Kobe has such a complex legacy that puts him on a different plane making any comparison invalid. Sure statwatchers will look and say Jokic is more efficient and for them its the end all be all. But Kobe has 5 rings and he played basketball like it was supposed to be played. If I could choose to be Kobe or Jokic in terms of basketball skillset I wouldn't hesitate for a second to be Kobe.
as a ball hog

u r delusional

[elementally morale]

Basketball is 5 on 5. Jokic.

But singling out Kobe for this makes him look bad. In fact, I'm not sure if there is anybody ever I'd put over Jokic at being 'good'. Legacy is another thing. Greatness that comes with doing it repeatedly... over and over... is quite another but that involves luck as well. As far as the 'ability of playing basketball and being individually very good at it while making the team great', nobody is unarguably better than Jokic. At his level only the GOAT tier exists and any comparisons there are worthless.

[PeroAntic]

You would also probably take Carmelo over LeBron, so...

I wouldnt because he has zero rings compared to Lebron's four.

Love that the super smart, efficiency obsessed "duh winning basketball duh" brigade got their panties in a twist here. Newsflash losers, basketball isnt just about numbers. A lot of it is about numbers but not all of it. Its also about myths and Kobe was a mythical player.

Its like you people would enjoy robots playing basketball more than humans smh. Kobe was more inspirational than Jokic purely as a player. Just because it cant be quantified the way your narrow minds want it to be doesn't make it false.

[RRR3]

I wouldnt because he has zero rings compared to Lebron's four.

Love that the super smart "winning basketball" efficiency obsessed brigade got their panties in a twist here. Newsflash losers, basketball isnt just about numbers. A lot of it is about numbers but not all of it. Its also about myths and Kobe was a mythical player.

Its like you people would enjoy robots playing basketball more than humans smh. Kobe was more inspirational than Jokic purely as a player. Just because it cant be quantified the way your narrow minds want it to be doesn't make it false.
Jim Abbot made the major leagues as a pitcher despite having one arm. He was obviously much more inspirational than Randy Johnson, by your insane logic he was a better pitcher.

[red1]

I would draft kobe because he'd play 20 years and would be extremely entertaining

as far as who's better at basketball


you're not going to beat a guy who's 7 feet tall and can shoot and pass like that and has the touch around the rim that jokic has


he's literally a flawless offensive player

[red1]

jokic is better than another great 7ft shooter in dirk because of his playmaking


he could easily average a triple double if he wanted, and wouldnt even have to force it like westbrook

[PeroAntic]

Jim Abbot made the major leagues as a pitcher despite having one arm. He was obviously much more inspirational than Randy Johnson, by your insane logic he was a better pitcher.

Kobe is not inspirational because he overcame a handicap, hes inspirational because of his achievements, mentality and how it looked playing basketball while he used that mentality to get those achievements. Jokic just doesnt have Kobe's aura.

[elementally morale]

I would draft kobe because he'd play 20 years and would be extremely entertaining

My main argument for having been a Kobe fan was always entertainment value. But for me Jokic is not any less entertaining. Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Kobe and Nash were my favorites. May not have been the best but really great and extremely entertaining. Jokic is in that group for me. He is definitely better than Kobe and Nash. Peak Hakeem I'm not sure Jokic is better than... but who is? Peak Hakeem is GOAT territory. Kobe and Nash are not GOAT territory. Really entertaining though. So I'd select them over some arguably better players, too.

[Xiao Yao You]

My main argument for having been a Kobe fan was always entertainment value. But for me Jokic is not any less entertaining. Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Kobe and Nash were my favorites. May not have been the best but really great and extremely entertaining. Jokic is in that group for me. He is definitely better than Kobe and Nash. Peak Hakeem I'm not sure Jokic is better than... but who is? Peak Hakeem is GOAT territory. Kobe and Nash are not GOAT territory. Really entertaining though. So I'd select them over some arguably better players, too.

gunners aren't entertaining. Jokic certainly is

[elementally morale]

gunners aren't entertaining. Jokic certainly is

Most gunners aren't entertaining but Kobe did entertain me. Why? I don't know. I guess it comes down to whether you can laugh at someone's obvious faults. If you can you'll have a good time. When he was hitting everything he was entertaining, sure, but that's obvious. He entertained me as an individual trying to do it his way. I fully understand if somebody else found that awkward. Boring though? Kobe was never boring.

With Jokic it's different. I don't care if he actually takes a shot or not. As long as he is on the court it's pure entertainment.

[Xiao Yao You]

Most gunners aren't entertaining but Kobe did entertain me. Why? I don't know. I guess it comes down to whether you can laugh at someone's obvious faults. If you can you'll have a good time. When he was hitting everything he was entertaining, sure, but that's obvious. He entertained me as an individual trying to do it his way. I fully understand if somebody else found that awkward. Boring though? Kobe was never boring.

With Jokic it's different. I don't care if he actually takes a shot or not. As long as he is on the court it's pure entertainment.

go watch his last game and tell me that's entertaining :lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Peak Kobe was a demon. Fearless, absurdly skilled and clutch. Quality defender as well. Would say Jokic but not by a large margin or anything.


go watch his last game and tell me that's entertaining :lol

How was that NOT entertaining? :biggums:

Oh wait, you're a Jazz fan lol

[elementally morale]

go watch his last game and tell me that's entertaining :lol

To Kobe fans the 4th quarter definitely was.

[Xiao Yao You]

Peak Kobe was a demon. Fearless, absurdly skilled and clutch. Quality defender as well. Would say Jokic but not by a large margin or anything.



How was that NOT entertaining? :biggums:

Oh wait, you're a Jazz fan lol

How? 22-50 6-21 from 3 :lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How? 22-50 6-21 from 3 :lol

So your source of entertainment is jerking off to a box-score.

Hey to each their own :confusedshrug:

[Xiao Yao You]

So your source of 'entertainment' is jerking off to a box-score.

Hey to each their own :confusedshrug:

watching a gunner throw up 30 bricks isn't my idea of basketball. To each their own I guess

[red1]

My main argument for having been a Kobe fan was always entertainment value. But for me Jokic is not any less entertaining. Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Kobe and Nash were my favorites. May not have been the best but really great and extremely entertaining. Jokic is in that group for me. He is definitely better than Kobe and Nash. Peak Hakeem I'm not sure Jokic is better than... but who is? Peak Hakeem is GOAT territory. Kobe and Nash are not GOAT territory. Really entertaining though. So I'd select them over some arguably better players, too.

yea. kobe is just one of the all-time ticket-sellers.


was a flashy dunker when he was young and a scoring machine his entire career. thats what fans want to see.

[red1]

watching a gunner throw up 30 bricks isn't my idea of basketball. To each their own I guess

you're crazy :oldlol:

[eliteballer]

Why do you even bother with polls on this site when that LeRoid slurping kid has 50 alts :oldlol:

[red1]

Why do you even bother with polls on this site when that LeRoid slurping kid has 50 alts :oldlol:

kobe was ringless without the best frontcourt in the league



he'd do well playing with jokic :oldlol:

[eliteballer]

kobe was ringless without the best frontcourt in the league



he'd do well playing with jokic :oldlol:

The minute Kobe got some talent to play with he started making finals and winning titles. None of those guys ever did anything without him.

[red1]

The minute Kobe got some talent to play with he started making finals and winning titles.

great :applause:

[FultzNationRISE]

Jokic is comfortably the more effective basketball player. Of course people can value whatever they want, but if you have Kobe over Jokic because of style points then you surely have TMac over Kareem, Iverson over Malone and so on.

Which is obviously an unconventional approach to the question of 'better' but... people can see it however they choose.

[ELITEpower23]

3ball voting for Kobe is just the nail in the coffin too.

He's been falling apart at the seams.

[ELITEpower23]

Took Kobe six, Yes, six NBA Finals to win one FMVP.

NOT JOKING

2000 No
2001 No
2002 No
2004 No
2008 No
2009 Finally

[ELITEpower23]

Why do you even bother with polls on this site when that LeRoid slurping kid has 50 alts :oldlol:
This is what being SHOOK looks like.

[LAL]

Most gunners aren't entertaining but Kobe did entertain me. Why? I don't know. I guess it comes down to whether you can laugh at someone's obvious faults. If you can you'll have a good time. When he was hitting everything he was entertaining, sure, but that's obvious. He entertained me as an individual trying to do it his way. I fully understand if somebody else found that awkward. Boring though? Kobe was never boring.

You're making a fool out of yourself lol, what is this shit?

[LAL]

yea. kobe is just one of the all-time ticket-sellers.


was a flashy dunker when he was young and a scoring machine his entire career. thats what fans want to see.
We know you're a young paki bron dick sucker, never played basketball and your agenda driven bball opinion has always been lame and pathetic. Tf man.

[LAL]

Jokic has already more triple doubles than lebum what's going on there nerds?

[red1]

We know you're a young paki bron dick sucker, never played basketball and your agenda driven bball opinion has always been lame and pathetic. Tf man.

what? :oldlol:





you alright son?

[elementally morale]

On a sidenote, Jokic just had a triple double halfway through the 3rd. 15 assists and counting.

[red1]

On a sidenote, Jokic just had a triple double halfway through the 3rd. 15 assists and counting.

efficient AND unselfish :applause:

[tontoz]

On a sidenote, Jokic just had a triple double halfway through the 3rd. 15 assists and counting.


Pels are shooting twice as good from 3 but Denver still has a chance to win.

[SATAN]

Love that the super smart, efficiency obsessed "duh winning basketball duh" brigade got their panties in a twist here. Newsflash losers, basketball isnt just about numbers. A lot of it is about numbers but not all of it. Its also about myths and Kobe was a mythical player.



Now I've heard it all. :roll::roll::oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

Jokic has a legit case for GOAT offensive center, I don't like comparing big men to guards, but Jokic just has more impact on the offensive end, one of the greatest passers ever & could score with the best while also being extremely efficient at it. Kobe was an amazing scorer at his peak and wouldn't argue if you feel he was the better scorer, but even as a Lakers fan growing up I always saw him as a somewhat one-dimensional guy, inconsistent defender who mainly just focused on scoring most of the time, Jokic just brings more to the table.

[Phoenix]

Kobe has such a complex legacy that puts him on a different plane making any comparison invalid. Sure statwatchers will look and say Jokic is more efficient and for them its the end all be all. But Kobe has 5 rings and he played basketball like it was supposed to be played. If I could choose to be Kobe or Jokic in terms of basketball skillset I wouldn't hesitate for a second to be Kobe.

That's a compliment I've rarely heard for Kobe, especially in comparison to Jokic. One of Kobe's biggest criticisms was being prone to bad shot selection, so not sure how that equates to playing the game how it's meant to be. That sentiment may apply to Jokic moreso than any player in recent memory. The rings argument is also a weird one when Kobe won 3 of them with Shaq. Jokic's career is still playing out so we don't know where he lands on that, but the topic is about who is the better basketball player.

[ImKobe]

Jokic's skillset is very impressive. Nowhere near Kobe all-time career-wise atm but you could make an argument for him as far as being a better player. If Jokic continues this pace he could possibly end up as the GOAT. OP thought he had one with this thread and would bait people to start shitting on Jokic but I don't think anyone on ISH hates the guy so it ain't gonna work.

[j3lademaster]

Joker, easily. Eye test, stats, advanced stats, whatever. The only way to pick Kobe is to go into subjective things like style points.

JokerÂ’s even a far better leader. When you play with Joker you cut harder, and run off screens harder because you know youÂ’ll get the ball. And anyone whoÂ’s played at any meaningful level understands players who get touches are more willing to work on defense and hustle plays.

[red1]

Jokic has a legit case for GOAT offensive center, I don't like comparing big men to guards, but Jokic just has more impact on the offensive end, one of the greatest passers ever & could score with the best while also being extremely efficient at it. Kobe was an amazing scorer at his peak and wouldn't argue if you feel he was the better scorer, but even as a Lakers fan growing up I always saw him as a somewhat one-dimensional guy, inconsistent defender who mainly just focused on scoring most of the time, Jokic just brings more to the table.
agreed


I said I would draft kobe because of his entertainment value and longevity but think jokic is better - and that was enough to trigger fans


I think thats a very reasonable take :confusedshrug:

[tpols]

Jokic has a legit case for GOAT offensive center, I don't like comparing big men to guards, but Jokic just has more impact on the offensive end, one of the greatest passers ever & could score with the best while also being extremely efficient at it. Kobe was an amazing scorer at his peak and wouldn't argue if you feel he was the better scorer, but even as a Lakers fan growing up I always saw him as a somewhat one-dimensional guy, inconsistent defender who mainly just focused on scoring most of the time, Jokic just brings more to the table.

I agree Jokic is better but Kobe was not one dimensional. He led top ranked offenses, top ranked assist teams, was the assist leader on 5 championship teams, and was an elite All D defender for most of his prime.

Even if you're a hater and have Kobe only top 20 all time there's no such thing as a one dimensional top 20 GOAT talent.

[red1]

I agree Jokic is better but Kobe was not one dimensional. He led top ranked offenses, top ranked assist teams, was the assist leader on 5 championship teams, and was an elite All D defender for most of his prime.

Even if you're a hater and have Kobe only top 20 all time there's no such thing as a one dimensional top 20 GOAT talent.

one-dimensional is clearly wrong


agreed there too

[tpols]

That's a compliment I've rarely heard for Kobe, especially in comparison to Jokic. One of Kobe's biggest criticisms was being prone to bad shot selection, so not sure how that equates to playing the game how it's meant to be. That sentiment may apply to Jokic moreso than any player in recent memory. The rings argument is also a weird one when Kobe won 3 of them with Shaq. Jokic's career is still playing out so we don't know where he lands on that, but the topic is about who is the better basketball player.

He did do hero ball thing a lot, but still led top ranked offenses and assist teams. Even in 2006 when he was in max gunner mode he led pitiful help to a top 10 offense and ball movement team. And was a single hail Mary shot from Tim Thomas away from upsetting the 2 seed Suns.

[Carbine]

Former players would vote for Kobe almost unanimously.

Basketball nerds will vote for Jokic.

The truth is somewhere in the middle. I would choose Jokic but wouldn't be surprised if in some alternate universe that Kobe would outperform Jokic more times than not in a playoff series.

[3ba11]

it's funny how defense only matters when we're talking about Pippen - there isn't a single other superstar where defense is cited

This comparison of Kobe and Jokic is a great example of that.. Who gives a shit about defense

But in addition a massive defensive deficit, Jokic also needs a historic producer and assassin closer to win - he needs a "kobe" to win.. this is true of all great centers, so the best wings will always be superior to the best centers, unless they're rampant ball-dominators

[RRR3]

it's funny how defense only matters when we're talking about Pippen - there isn't a single other superstar where defense is cited

This comparison of Kobe and Jokic is a great example of that.. Who gives a shit about defense

But in addition a massive defensive deficit, Jokic also needs a historic producer and assassin closer to win - he needs a "kobe" to win.. the best wings will always be superior to the best centers, unless they're rampant ball-dominators
Jamal Murray has never even made an all-star team. Yikes, what low standards you have for someone to be "Kobe".

[tpols]

it's funny how defense only matters when we're talking about Pippen - there isn't a single other superstar where defense is cited

This comparison of Kobe and Jokic is a great example of that.. Who gives a shit about defense

But in addition a massive defensive deficit, Jokic also needs a historic producer and assassin closer to win - he needs a "kobe" to win.. this is true of all great centers, so the best wings will always be superior to the best centers, unless they're rampant ball-dominators

Dirk wasn't half the defender Duncan was yet prime for prime and peak for peak he beat him with less help. (in 2006)

Offense individually matters more than defense.

[Carbine]

Jamal Murray has never even made an all-star team. Yikes, what low standards you have for someone to be "Kobe".

Jamal was as good a #2 option as any non KD Warriors title team had since... 01 Kobe

His numbers in the playoffs were #1B option type stuff.

[PeroAntic]

That's a compliment I've rarely heard for Kobe, especially in comparison to Jokic. One of Kobe's biggest criticisms was being prone to bad shot selection, so not sure how that equates to playing the game how it's meant to be.

Playing the game how its meant to be played and playing the game as efficiently as possible are two different things.

[ArbitraryWater]

love that the super smart, efficiency obsessed "duh winning basketball duh" brigade got their panties in a twist here. Newsflash losers, basketball isnt just about numbers. A lot of it is about numbers but not all of it. Its also about myths and kobe was a mythical player.

Its like you people would enjoy robots playing basketball more than humans smh. Kobe was more inspirational than jokic purely as a player. Just because it cant be quantified the way your narrow minds want it to be doesn't make it false.


hahahaha

[Phoenix]

Playing the game how its meant to be played and playing the game as efficiently as possible are two different things.

According to who? How would playing the game as efficiently as possible NOT be the right way to play? And playing the game how it's meant to be played means.....what? And why wouldn't Jokic qualify under both distinctions however you choose to define them ( which as of yet, you haven't).

[ILLsmak]

Jokic has a legit case for GOAT offensive center,

You gotta take era into account. He doesn't really have a case v Wilt, Russell, or Kareem and dudes like Shaq and Hakeem would eat him alive. He's a great player and passer, though, and he's something we haven't really seen, but you underestimate the effect of having to play vs an atg as a C.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BEhA2ENZ3A

That's the NBA now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCOOVLTCtII

and that shit was legal if you were in the pivot space.

-Smak

[Mask the Embiid]

https://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gif

[ShawkFactory]

https://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gif

You got Jokic then?

[Soundwave]

Jamal was as good a #2 option as any non KD Warriors title team had since... 01 Kobe

His numbers in the playoffs were #1B option type stuff.

It's just a weird happenstance that he hasn't made an All-Star team, his numbers are good enough to be on the All-Star team, he's had three straight seasons of 20 ppg or better and an average of above 24 ppg in the playoffs for his career, that's almost always an all-star in other situations, just a weird thing with the way the Western Conference voting is now. 26 ppg in the playoffs on a team that won a championship.

His numbers are more than good enough to qualify with other All-Star no.2 options on championship winning teams.

He has higher playoff scoring than guys like Klay Thompson and Scottie Pippen, he is an All-Star caliber player, dude is out there dunking on LeBron in playoff games and hitting game winners over AD, like c'mon.

[NBAGOAT]

It's just a weird happenstance that he hasn't made an All-Star team, his numbers are good enough to be on the All-Star team, he's had three straight seasons of 20 ppg or better and an average of above 24 ppg in the playoffs for his career, that's almost always an all-star in other situations, just a weird thing with the way the Western Conference voting is now. 26 ppg in the playoffs on a team that won a championship.

His numbers are more than good enough to qualify with other All-Star no.2 options on championship winning teams.

He has higher playoff scoring than guys like Klay Thompson and Scottie Pippen, he is an All-Star caliber player, dude is out there dunking on LeBron in playoff games and hitting game winners over AD, like c'mon.

You know scoring has inflated but most of that discussion is around superstars in different eras. It affects other guys too. 24ppg is enough for an all star but Jamal only does that during the playoffs doesn’t matter for the all star game. Jamal was 17th in scoring in just the west this year, 21ppg is no longer good enough to make the all star game. He had a good rs maybe his best ever and still wasn’t in the all star convo. People like Kyrie and zion or fox scoring 26 and sabonis putting up 20/10/7 every other night didn’t even make it.

Even when Jamal put up 26ppg that was only 11th among playoff scorers. Klays 24.3ppg was 9th in 2016. Pippens 20ppg was 10th in 93. There’s a discussion to had which is best scoring run actually

Edit; add on Jamal’s not a great playmaker or good defender. Guys like klay and pippen are offering more than scoring

[BlackMamba8]

This thread just shows how many ****ing idiots we have on these message boards...all yall are ****ing burger flipping ******s that I would smack the shit out of if I ever saw yall. LOL ****ing stupid ****ing idiots have no life instead go on here trolling....go make yourself useful and go read a ****ing book. *** ****ing idiots

[Norcaliblunt]

Jokic and Kobe are one and the same. Overrated as hell. All their stans propping them up like they matter more than they actually do.