What's a bigger weakness and more exploitable? Giannis' offense or Jokic's defense

[Im Still Ballin]

Title.

Giannis' offensive limitations are his lack of scoring range and diversity. He's more limited than a lot of players but is more unstoppable and therefore a better scorer. Like Shaq, the defense knows where he's trying to get and how he's going to score. They just can't stop him. An unstoppable force would be an apt description. However, certain defensive matchups and coverages can cause issues; and his lack of scoring diversity limits his situational value in certain circumstances.

Antetokoumpo's currently putting up 29.3 ppg on a career-high 59.3% FG by the way. Not sure about the TS% because the stats haven't updated yet. Can't be bothered doing the calculations.

Nikola's defensive limitations stem from his lack of speed which influences his ability to defend certain defensive circumstances. Can be exploited in PnR and iso situations. As a whole, his paint and rim protection and deterrence are only average at best. However, he makes up ground with rebounding, active hands, legs, and solid rotations.

[SouBeachTalents]

I think in general, a superstars offensive flaws are more exploitable than their defensive ones, but I just reject the notion that Giannis' offense is even being considered a weakness in the first place. He absolutely has limitations to his game and his FT shooting is a legitimate flaw that can be exploited, but the guy averages nearly 30 ppg every single season, and just had a title run that was as dominant scoring wise as anybody's ever had besides Jordan.

Anytime you have a superstar who can't shoot FT's reliably, their game will always be more exploitable than one who's an average-bad defender, but that doesn't change the fact that Jokic's defense is unquestionably weaker than Giannis' offense, which is what should be considered the more relevant factor in this discussion.

[Im Still Ballin]

I think in general, a superstars offensive flaws are more exploitable than their defensive ones, but I just reject the notion that Giannis' offense is even being considered a weakness in the first place. He absolutely has limitations to his game and his FT shooting is a legitimate flaw that can be exploited, but the guy averages nearly 30 ppg every single season, and just had a title run that was as dominant scoring wise as anybody's ever had besides Jordan.

Anytime you have a superstar who can't shoot FT's reliably, their game will always be more exploitable than one who's an average-bad defender, but that doesn't change the fact that Jokic's defense is unquestionably weaker than Giannis' offense, which is what should be considered the more relevant factor in this discussion.

Is it that simple though? A center's role on defense is more important than any other position. Considering defense is ultimately and largely reactionary, I think it's easier to exploit Jokic's defensive limitations. And most people will only remember the missed shots and free throws a star had, not the baskets that were scored on him. Or because of his defensive limitations.

[elementally morale]

Is it that simple though? A center's role on defense is more important than any other position. Considering defense is ultimately and largely reactionary, I think it's easier to exploit Jokic's defensive limitations. And most people will only remember the missed shots and free throws a star had, not the baskets that were scored on him. Or because of his defensive limitations.

Having watched all Nuggets games this year, I found that Jokic defends differently in the 1st half than in the 2nd. The Nuggtes as a team try to outrun the opposition early on. Jokic is trying not to get into foul trouble and when scored on, he starts the offense instantly. In the second hald and especially in the 4th he becomes a lot tougher to score on. He can play good defense for spurts. He can't keep it up all game. I guess he could but his offense would suffer. And he has to be available for offense because he is basically the whole team when on the floor. So I have a feeling he purposefully changes his intensity and if you are watching him in the 1st vs. the 4th quarter you'll see a different defensive player. (Last year's playoffs was further proof him having anther gear on defense, it was a lot better than in the reg. season.)

[Im Still Ballin]

Having watched all Nuggets games this year, I found that Jokic defends differently in the 1st half than in the 2nd. The Nuggtes as a team try to outrun the opposition early on. Jokic is trying not to get into foul trouble and when scored on, he starts the offense instantly. In the second hald and especially in the 4th he becomes a lot tougher to score on. He can play good defense for spurts. He can't keep it up all game. I guess he could but his offense would suffer. And he has to be available for offense because he is basically the whole team when on the floor. So I have a feeling he purposefully changes his intensity and if you are watching him in the 1st vs. the 4th quarter you'll see a different defensive player. (Last year's playoffs was further proof him having anther gear on defense, it was a lot better than in the reg. season.)

Interesting perspective.

[Kblaze8855]

They’re both overblown far as the bottom line. Most(almost all) people fans wouldn’t say have as exploitable a “weakness” wouldn’t and couldn’t win in their place and they already have.

[Jasper]

Giannis weakness is his free throws ... A game he played a week ago he was 15-17 at the line.
Lik to see you do that.

Every player has a weakness, but no matter how physical the game can get during the playoffs.. running is more important that drives defense and offense. Ele.. morale pointed out how great players pace them selves , and Jokers defense is a perfect example.
Coach Griff wants Giannis to pass more as well as Dame , because like last night Bucks are deep. (Their bench scored 45 points)

[ILLsmak]

I turned on the game for a sec to see Giannis have some problems, that one super late travel call haha. I think his O is fine, but he needs to be able to read the floor. Like he should know looking at the floor what is gonna happen. He should know when not to drive to a certain area. It's not like he can just get there every time. He needs to give the ball up to Dame more. He should be trying to get on the boards a lot. Dame threw some real nice lasers to cutters, so Giannis needs to get in on that.

Jokic's D isn't bad, either, I don't think, unless they get him in foul trouble. That could be an issue, but I dunno who other than like Embiid could do that.

I think Bucks are the best team in E, still. They just need to get it worked out. It's still too much me... you with Dame and Giannis; they need to get it balanced.

Oh and I also remembered how much basketball sucks now. Repetitive GARBAGE.

-Smak

[tpols]

Jokic defense isn't that bad. People think because he's kinda a fat looking dumpy white guy who can't jump he doesn't play defense but the Nuggets had one of the better playoff defenses in the league last year.

There's never been a series where jokic defense was exploited to an extreme degree the way 8 seed Miami locked Giannis down twice.

Jokic would never lose to an 8 seed as a 1 seed like that nevermind doing it multiple times.

[Kblaze8855]

Jokic defense isn't that bad. People think because he's kinda a fat looking dumpy white guy who can't jump he doesn't play defense but the Nuggets had one of the better playoff defenses in the league last year.

There's never been a series where jokic defense was exploited to an extreme degree the way 8 seed Miami locked Giannis down twice.

Jokic would never lose to an 8 seed as a 1 seed like that nevermind doing it multiple times.

Im trying to figure out what 8th seed they lost to you keep saying happened twice.

Do you think both Heat finals teams were 8th seeds?


Giannis played 10 minutes game one…was out till game 4…and had 26/10/13 assists on 55 percent shooting then 38/20/3 on 52 percent. Previous year was 42/12/8, 34/18/5, 40/11/3, 44/20/6, and , 25/20/9 to end the playoffs. And of course the year before was the 50/14 closeout which was not his second…but third 40+ point game that finals. Not seeing much locking down in recent years. Even the two years he was returning from injuries suffered in the playoffs.

Both have shown they can power you to a ring and that minus their second option they lose early(Jokic having been swept by a team Giannis beat for the ring then losing in 5 the next season in the first round). And both are generally super productive win or lose.

This giants difference in results you wanna suggest simply does not exist. You can claim there is a giant difference in playing ability despite one being all time elite on D while still scoring 30 a game on 55% but…whatever.

There is no real difference in results. They’ve basically had the same level of career. Just a lot more acknowledgement that one of them have only won once despite incredible numbers as if the other has not lost with great numbers his whole career outside one year as well.

In truth nobody who isn’t a dick really should be complaining about either. Winning once with the non superteams they have had considering years ruined by injuries is as much as a rational person should expect.

Theyre both gonna be doing wild numbers and losing most of their lives some will just choose to complain about one or the other.

They are both like 7 years of losing in. Jokic is just in a “You can’t beat a guy like this!” point where people ignore the league has been beating a guy like that for years.

Both of them are gonna win about what health and teammates stepping up allow. I’m gonna say they win a combined 4 I just can’t say how it’s gonna break down between them.

Hurt Jamal healthy Dame playing like Jamal did last year? Might go Giannis way. They’re both gonna do their part when healthy and have haters like you acting like 38/20 is being locked down when it’s in a loss.

Nobody worth listening to hates on either of these people at this point.

[Axe]

Joker may be a slack on defense but at least he's still more versatile offensively. And in a no-defense league that casuals whine about so badly, it makes him a more valuable asset nowadays.

[Xiao Yao You]

Joker may be a slack on defense but at least he's still more versatile offensively. And in a no-defense league that casuals whine about so badly, it makes him a more valuable asset nowadays.

those damn cumbersome bigs

[3ba11]

I think in general, a superstars offensive flaws are more exploitable than their defensive ones, but I just reject the notion that Giannis' offense is even being considered a weakness in the first place. He absolutely has limitations to his game and his FT shooting is a legitimate flaw that can be exploited, but the guy averages nearly 30 ppg every single season, and just had a title run that was as dominant scoring wise as anybody's ever had besides Jordan.

Anytime you have a superstar who can't shoot FT's reliably, their game will always be more exploitable than one who's an average-bad defender, but that doesn't change the fact that Jokic's defense is unquestionably weaker than Giannis' offense, which is what should be considered the more relevant factor in this discussion.


Yeah but Giannis affords opposing coaches the rare strategic luxury of packing the paint and sagging off - it's a big exploitable thing that the 19' Raptors used against him if I remember correctly

And by locking up the Heat in the 23' Finals, I think that Jokic has already proved that individual defense isn't that important and that great team defense is driven more by a culture of effort and long-standing chemistry.. we saw the 90's Bulls improve defensively when they lost MJ in 94', or Horace in 95', or Pippen for the 1st half of 98' (bulls had #1 defense during that time) - so here we see that long-standing chemistry and a culture of effort is more important drivers of great team defense than great individual defenders.

[Axe]

those damn cumbersome bigs
https://media0.giphy.com/media/HoPZYGIcfwFsSSbzLF/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b9520nnixs1ogvmrae38f7b72vxljjsz q9heifhdvzqg&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

[ILLsmak]

Im trying to figure out what 8th seed they lost to you keep saying happened twice.

Do you think both Heat finals teams were 8th seeds?


Giannis played 10 minutes game one…was out till game 4…and had 26/10/13 assists on 55 percent shooting then 38/20/3 on 52 percent. Previous year was 42/12/8, 34/18/5, 40/11/3, 44/20/6, and , 25/20/9 to end the playoffs. And of course the year before was the 50/14 closeout which was not his second…but third 40+ point game that finals. Not seeing much locking down in recent years. Even the two years he was returning from injuries suffered in the playoffs.

Both have shown they can power you to a ring and that minus their second option they lose early(Jokic having been swept by a team Giannis beat for the ring then losing in 5 the next season in the first round). And both are generally super productive win or lose.

This giants difference in results you wanna suggest simply does not exist. You can claim there is a giant difference in playing ability despite one being all time elite on D while still scoring 30 a game on 55% but…whatever.

There is no real difference in results. They’ve basically had the same level of career. Just a lot more acknowledgement that one of them have only won once despite incredible numbers as if the other has not lost with great numbers his whole career outside one year as well.

In truth nobody who isn’t a dick really should be complaining about either. Winning once with the non superteams they have had considering years ruined by injuries is as much as a rational person should expect.

Theyre both gonna be doing wild numbers and losing most of their lives some will just choose to complain about one or the other.

They are both like 7 years of losing in. Jokic is just in a “You can’t beat a guy like this!” point where people ignore the league has been beating a guy like that for years.

Both of them are gonna win about what health and teammates stepping up allow. I’m gonna say they win a combined 4 I just can’t say how it’s gonna break down between them.

Hurt Jamal healthy Dame playing like Jamal did last year? Might go Giannis way. They’re both gonna do their part when healthy and have haters like you acting like 38/20 is being locked down when it’s in a loss.

Nobody worth listening to hates on either of these people at this point.

That's why I say unless Dame is just straight garbing, bricking, or gunning for the FMVP, Bucks are gonna be right there because all he needs to do is take some pressure off and Giannis can get 40-50 every game. If he can't their offense is set up like shit.

Giannis really does learn to not drive into traps though haha. There are certain angles / D set ups where he should just pass off if he doesn't get a great burst, or just kick out early.

-Smak

[Xiao Yao You]

https://media0.giphy.com/media/HoPZYGIcfwFsSSbzLF/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b9520nnixs1ogvmrae38f7b72vxljjsz q9heifhdvzqg&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g


It's like you haven't ever even seen him play :facepalm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80laJat8plg

[Carbine]

Jokic was at worst the #2 most impactful defender on a title winning team, I would argue #1.

His defense is an absolute non issue.

[Nanners]

I'd say that Jokic's defense is more "exploitable" than Giannis' offense...but the Bucks rely on Giannis' offensive production to win games, while the Nugs can still regularly win games when Joker plays bad defense.

[John8204]

Jokic...and it's less his defense and more his conditioning

[Xiao Yao You]

Jokic...and it's less his defense and more his conditioning

he couldn't be in better shape!

[Im Still Ballin]

Jokic's defense was exploited heavily tonight. Just saying.

[John8204]

he couldn't be in better shape!

He's in a shape...I don't know if it's a good shape. I've never watched a game with Giannis and thought...he looks tired.

[dankok8]

Is OP FrodoBaggins on RealGM? In the playoffs, Giannis' offense is a bigger weakness.

[tontoz]

Jokic's defense was exploited heavily tonight. Just saying.

It wasn't a big issue during the playoffs when they went 16-4 against good teams.