There's no 13-yr period of Kobe that sniffs Lebron's career

[StrongLurk]

2008-2020 Lebron - 28.7 PER.,,.. 9.6 BPM... 0.253 WS/48... 104.5 VORP.. 60.1 TS* .. 118 ORTG.. 27/8/8

2000 -2012 Kobe - 24.2 PER.......5.5 BPM... 0.192 WS/48... 70.1 VORP.. 55.5 TS%.. 112 ORTG.. 28/6/5

Kobe has massive deficits blah blah blah.

[ImKobe]

Kobe won 5 rings in a 13-year span. Find me one from Bran where he did the same.

[Manny98]

Kobe won 5 rings in a 13-year span. Find me one from Bran where he did the same.

Boom

[StrongLurk]

Kobe won 5 rings in a 13-year span. Find me one from Bran where he did the same.

That's literally irrelevant to the on-court performance. Derek Fisher also won 5 rings in that time frame. Pippen went 6-0 in the finals, guess he is equal to MJ...

As you can see here, Kobe has massive deficits compared to Lebron.

2008-2020 Lebron - 28.7 PER.,,.. 9.6 BPM... 0.253 WS/48... 104.5 VORP.. 60.1 TS% .. 118 ORTG.. 27/8/8

2000-2012 Kobe - 24.2 PER.......5.5 BPM... 0.192 WS/48... 70.1 VORP.. 55.5 TS%.. 112 ORTG.. 28/6/5

EDIT: The gap is slightly worse for Kobe in the playoffs.

Playoffs:

2008-2020 Lebron - 29.2 PER.,,.. 10.6 BPM... 0.257 WS/48... 29.6 VORP.. 59.1 TS% .. 118 ORTG.. 29/9/7

2000-2012 Kobe - 23.0 PER.......5.8 BPM... 0.166 WS/48... 15.7 VORP.. 54.3 TS%.. 112 ORTG.. 28/5/5

[ArbitraryWater]

That's literally irrelevant to the on-court performance. Derek Fisher also won 5 rings in that time frame. Pippen went 6-0 in the finals, guess he is equal to MJ...

As you can see here, Kobe has massive deficits compared to Lebron.

2008-2020 Lebron - 28.7 PER.,,.. 9.6 BPM... 0.253 WS/48... 104.5 VORP.. 60.1 TS% .. 118 ORTG.. 27/8/8

2000-2012 Kobe - 24.2 PER.......5.5 BPM... 0.192 WS/48... 70.1 VORP.. 55.5 TS%.. 112 ORTG.. 28/6/5

EDIT: The gap is slightly worse for Kobe in the playoffs.

Playoffs:

2008-2020 Lebron - 29.2 PER.,,.. 10.6 BPM... 0.257 WS/48... 29.6 VORP.. 59.1 TS% .. 118 ORTG.. 29/9/7

2000-2012 Kobe - 23.0 PER.......5.8 BPM... 0.166 WS/48... 15.7 VORP.. 54.3 TS%.. 112 ORTG.. 28/5/5


:oldlol: see what you did there

[RRR3]

Kobe won 5 rings in a 13-year span. Find me one from Bran where he did the same.
Kobe won a ring averaging 15.6 PPG on 41.1 TS%, truly impressive stuff.

[tpols]

Kobe won a ring averaging 15.6 PPG on 41.1 TS%, truly impressive stuff.

Kobe was All NBA 2nd team (top 10 player) and All Defense 1st team in that year.

An injured 4 game sample size against a weak east fodder opponent doesn't take away the other 97% of the season. You and StrongDork are on some goofy shit. :lol

[StrongLurk]

Kobe was All NBA 2nd team (top 10 player) and All Defense 1st team in that year.

An injured 4 game sample size against a weak east fodder opponent doesn't take away the other 97% of the season. You and StrongDork are on some goofy shit. :lol

It does matter when applying the GOAT standard to Kobe and comparing him to guys like MJ/Lebron.

Neither MJ/Lebron are winning ANYTHING putting up 15.6ppg on 41.1 TS% in the finals.

The Lakers went up 2-0 in the 2000 finals with Kobe putting up 8/2/5 on 47.4 TS% :lol. Maybe because Shaq put up 44/22/4 and 3 blocks per game in those first 2 games :roll:. ABSURD levels of carrying by peak Shaq.

It's so ironic Kobe stans trying to say "hey what happened in the finals doesn't erase the rest of the year"...yet that's literally what Kobe stans do to Lebron.

[tpols]

It's already been explained to you with regards to Kobes competition that the West opponents the Lakers faced in their 3peat were 10x better than the East Competition they faced in the Finals.

And inversely Lebrons Eastern opponents were generally trash 95% of the time and he only mainly saw real competition from the West.

It's not our fault you can't comprehend context. Kobe fans have been focusing on what he did vs his teams best competition and what Lebron did vs his teams best competition.

Perfectly straight forward and congruent. We can't help it that you lack the cognitive ability to process this information.

[StrongLurk]

It's already been explained to you with regards to Kobes competition that the West opponents the Lakers faced in their 3peat were 10x better than the East Competition they faced in the Finals.

And inversely Lebrons Eastern opponents were generally trash 95% of the time and he only mainly saw real competition from the West.

It's not our fault you can't comprehend context. Kobe fans have been focusing on what he did vs his teams best competition and what Lebron did vs his teams best competition.

Perfectly straight forward and congruent. We can't help it that you lack the cognitive ability to process this information.

I've explained before how your reasoning is bullshit. You still need to PLAY WELL in the finals. Kobe stans keep trying to say that Kobe's performance in the finals doesn't matter which is absolutely insane. Apparently Kobe is the only all time great that gets free passes for playing subpar. If the finals were "so easy", then why didn't Kobe play better? He was clearly trying his hardest.

I've already shown the difference between Kobe/Bron in the regular season/playoffs. You DONT want me to post the finals stats as well in this thread...spoiler alert, Bron is better there too.

[3ba11]

Kobe won 5 rings in a 13-year span. Find me one from Bran where he did the same.


Can you imagine Lebron f*cking up a 3-peat with Shaq and choking off 1 or 2 of those titles?

I can.

Those teams were towering favorites and a dynasty but Lebron would make them whimpering 50-something win teams and underdogs on the Finals level - what a travesty - Lebron's teams are perennial underdogs on the Finals level regardless of cast, so it would be pathetic for Shaq/Lebron to be underdogs and trick off Finals.

We've seen this kind of underperformance for 20 years from bron-ball.. Bron-ball underachieves the on--paper talent - preseason favorites fell to underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16') and also 2021 (allen miracle aside)

[StrongLurk]

Can you imagine Lebron f*cking up a 3-peat with Shaq and choking off 1 or 2 of those titles?

I can.

Those teams were towering favorites and a dynasty but Lebron would make them whimpering 50-something win teams and underdogs on the Finals level - what a travesty - Lebron's teams are perennial underdogs on the Finals level regardless of cast, so it would be pathetic for Shaq/Lebron to be underdogs and trick off Finals.

We've seen this kind of underperformance for 20 years from bron-ball.. Bron-ball underachieves the on--paper talent - preseason favorites fell to underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16') and also 2021 (allen miracle aside)

Look at 3ball resorting to a bunch of "what-ifs". No surprise since the vast majority of basketball "evidence" supports Lebron > Kobe.

Kobe stans are forced to rely on really niche or low importance talking points.

[SouBeachTalents]

Look at 3ball resorting to a bunch of "what-ifs". No surprise since the vast majority of basketball "evidence" supports Lebron > Kobe.

Kobe stans are forced to rely on really niche or low importance talking points.
I most enjoyed him claiming LeBron & Shaq would've been underdogs in the Finals from 2000-02 :lol

[StrongLurk]

It's been settled for a long time that Bron is better than Kobe (although people saying Kobe isn't top 10 are clearly wrong too - Kobe is somewhere in the top 6-8 all time)

Let's compare Kobe's "GOAT" 3-peat vs Pippen's "the worse sidekick ever" 3-peat. As you can see, it's actually close :lol

Playoffs:

1991-1993 Scott Pip - 19.6 PER.,,.. 5.1 BPM... 0.148WS/48... 4.3 VORP.. 53.6 TS% .. 112 ORTG.. 103 DRTG

2000-2002 Kobe - 21.3 PER.......4.9 BPM... 0.169 WS/48... 4.2 VORP.. 52.7 TS%.. 112 ORTG.. 102 DRTG

[tpols]

Can you imagine Lebron f*cking up a 3-peat with Shaq and choking off 1 or 2 of those titles?

I can.

Those teams were towering favorites and a dynasty but Lebron would make them whimpering 50-something win teams and underdogs on the Finals level - what a travesty - Lebron's teams are perennial underdogs on the Finals level regardless of cast, so it would be pathetic for Shaq/Lebron to be underdogs and trick off Finals.

We've seen this kind of underperformance for 20 years from bron-ball.. Bron-ball underachieves the on--paper talent - preseason favorites fell to underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16') and also 2021 (allen miracle aside)

Lebron has never played with dominant post players. It kills his spacing and driving lanes ie why he always opted for stretch bigs like Big Z, Jamison, Bosh, Love, and AD.

[tpols]

I most enjoyed him claiming LeBron & Shaq would've been underdogs in the Finals from 2000-02 :lol

They probably lose to the Blazers in 2000 and the Kings in 2002. It's just a clunky fit. Young Lebron didnt have the jumper to fit in the Lakers triangle system alongside Shaq clogging up the paint.

Lebrons jumper was totally broke when he was young and Kobe had one of the best midrange jumpers in the game and he was All Defense 1st team while Lebron wasn't a great defender when he was young. He got better later on in that respect.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

It does matter when applying the GOAT standard to Kobe and comparing him to guys like MJ/Lebron.

Neither MJ/Lebron are winning ANYTHING putting up 15.6ppg on 41.1 TS% in the finals.

The Lakers went up 2-0 in the 2000 finals with Kobe putting up 8/2/5 on 47.4 TS% :lol. Maybe because Shaq put up 44/22/4 and 3 blocks per game in those first 2 games :roll:. ABSURD levels of carrying by peak Shaq.



This is true.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Lebrons jumper was totally broke when he was young while Lebron wasn't a great defender

Jumper never really got any better, especially his mid-range, and hasn't played 3 min of defense in a game since 2014.

[3ba11]

It does matter when applying the GOAT standard to Kobe and comparing him to guys like MJ/Lebron.

Neither MJ/Lebron are winning ANYTHING putting up 15.6ppg on 41.1 TS% in the finals.

The Lakers went up 2-0 in the 2000 finals with Kobe putting up 8/2/5 on 47.4 TS% :lol. Maybe because Shaq put up 44/22/4 and 3 blocks per game in those first 2 games :roll:. ABSURD levels of carrying by peak Shaq.

It's so ironic Kobe stans trying to say "hey what happened in the finals doesn't erase the rest of the year"...yet that's literally what Kobe stans do to Lebron.


Yeah but Kobe was clear-cut 2nd option at that time, so his stats don't matter - the Bulls frequently won many games with Pippen wetting the bed in similar fashion - Kobe never wet the bed as 1st option such as losing a series due to under 40% shooting

[StrongLurk]

Yeah but Kobe was clear-cut 2nd option at that time, so his stats don't matter - the Bulls frequently won many games with Pippen wetting the bed in similar fashion - Kobe never wet the bed as 1st option such as losing a series due to under 40% shooting

Thank you for proving my point in this thread and the other thread I made. My point is saying Kobe > Lebron because 5 rings > 4 rings is incorrect because Kobe's 5 rings were not won as the "best player" on the team, or even the best player in the finals (Kobe was outplayed by non-Lakers players too). Kobe's 2000 ring is especially egregious in this regard. I am NOT saying Kobe was a bad player during that time - he was in fact a good player that year. BUT, he was severely carried in the finals (if you want to use the "injury excuse", then go ahead, but the injury excuse doesn't change that he was carried).

So Kobe really only has 4 rings where he performed at a very high level throughout the playoffs and the finals (same as Lebron). His 2000 ring doesn't matter in "all-time" discussions because he it was a "pippen-level" ring at best.

[LeGoat4Life]

Kobe won 5 rings in a 13-year span. Find me one from Bran where he did the same.

Boom

First post slay are always the best

[3ba11]

Thank you for proving my point in this thread and the other thread I made. My point is saying Kobe > Lebron because 5 rings > 4 rings is incorrect because Kobe's 5 rings were not won as the "best player" on the team, or even the best player in the finals (Kobe was outplayed by non-Lakers players too). Kobe's 2000 ring is especially egregious in this regard. I am NOT saying Kobe was a bad player during that time - he was in fact a good player that year. BUT, he was severely carried in the finals (if you want to use the "injury excuse", then go ahead, but the injury excuse doesn't change that he was carried).

So Kobe really only has 4 rings where he performed at a very high level throughout the playoffs and the finals (same as Lebron). His 2000 ring doesn't matter in "all-time" discussions because he it was a "pippen-level" ring at best.


yeah but based on 2 decades of wathcing Lebron, it's highly likely that he would trick off Finals with Shaq and coudln't 3-peat with Shaq, or repeat with just 1 other star like Pau - Lebron needed 2 stars or a sidekick to be scoring leader (AD), and these teams were still underdogs in the Finals and not a towering juggernaut like what Kobe had with Shaq or Pau

so that's the issue - Kobe's skillset yields better teams (higher team ceiling/Finals records) while Lebron-ball would trick off various Finals with Shaq and would never even make the Finals win the West with Pau, let alone repeat.. 20 years has shown that Lebron needs far more help and even when he has Shaq-like help, his teams are nowhere near a 3-peat historic team.

Kobe is just far superior due to his expert jumpshooting skill and the resulting superior teammate fits, chemistry, development and strategy/coaching - these things yield superior teams with less help. Lebron is just a Luka-style ball-dominator and simpleton compared to Kobe

[StrongLurk]

Welp, looks like the case is closed. Lebron > Kobe as clearly supported by most factual measures.

[3ba11]

Welp, looks like the case is closed. Lebron > Kobe as clearly supported by most factual measures.


OTHER factual measures that contribute to winning include teammate development, chemistry/fits, and strategic capacity/coaching (ball movement/high team assists), - these things contribute to winning/team ceiling/Finals records/favorite status more than stats

[StrongLurk]

OTHER factual measures that contribute to winning include teammate development, chemistry/fits, and strategic capacity/coaching (ball movement/high team assists), - these things contribute to winning/team ceiling/Finals records/favorite status more than stats

You aren't saying anything new. Again, this case is closed since there isn't anything more to add for Kobe. He has a few advantages over Lebron, but just a few.

If we had to measure out of 10 total points, Lebron gets 6 and Kobe gets 4. Lebron is a tier above Kobe all time and is widening the gap to this day. Kobe is definitely top 6-8 all time though.