Wasn't much of a difference between Andrew Toney & MJ in ability to score- Larry Bird

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/old-school/larry-bird-names-the-only-shooting-guard-he-feared-besides-michael-jordan

"To me, there wasn't much of a difference between the two when it came to the sheer ability to score. Michael has always come off more picks (until they moved him to point guard late in the 1988-89 season), whereas Andrew would just throw his guy off and go. Just when the 76ers really needed a basket is exactly when Andrew would get it," - Larry Bird

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnDOzRicfbw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTNGcYm4Ed8

[RRR3]

This is why it's hilarious when people say we should take players opinions as gospel

[1987_Lakers]

3ball about to drop Bird out of his top 10.

I remember him getting super butt hurt when Duncan revealed he wasn't a big MJ fan. :lol

[L.Kizzle]

So, is Toney better than God? Bird said MJ was God.

[SATAN]

This seems like a pretty significant revelation.

Considering Toney didn't make the NBA's top 75 or any lists at all for that matter, how does this impact MJs rankings?

[1_BAD_TIGER]

You people have no clue, Andrew Toney would be a nightmare for any current player trying to guard him.

And he would have been an all-time great, but injuries shortened his career.

[RRR3]

You people have no clue, Andrew Toney would be a nightmare for any current player trying to guard him.
I don't think anyone is denying he was a talented scorer, but saying he was the equal of the guy who pretty much everyone considers the best scorer of all time is a stretch to say the least.

[1_BAD_TIGER]

Toney was not going to be THE all time great scorer, that's for sure, but who knows how good he could have become, when he got injured just as he was entering his prime.

[1987_Lakers]

I always found it odd how nobody talks about Bill Cunningham as a coach. He was pretty successful, made 3 Finals, won one. Left at age 41 and never coached again. I know he worked for CBS after he left and I believe he called the '88 Finals with Dick Stockton, but don't know what happened to him after that.

[SATAN]

And he would have been an all-time great, but injuries shortened his career.

Excuses.

[1_BAD_TIGER]

Not an excuse, just what happened

[Kblaze8855]

This is why it's hilarious when people say we should take players opinions as gospel



first of all, even the people you see who would correctly tell you players know more about basketball than most fans obviously know that since there are thousands of players with different opinions, they can’t all be automatically right. Youre just stretching the concept to an irrational extent nobody thinks to have something to argue with.

That said….id say it’s hilarious how strong fans opinions are about people they never saw take a single jumper.

Ive heard players say he was the best player they ever guarded and Barkley had him over Moses, Kevin Johnson, and Doc as the best player he ever played with.

What Bird is saying is they’re both on the unstoppable level of scorers. It’s just not something people are prepared to accept largely because they have absolutely no information about the guy. But at the time guys would talk about Toney, Bernard King, and Jordan as people you just couldn’t keep from scoring.

It wasn’t some piece by piece Internet forum style breakdown. More like “Who can’t you stop?” and his name would come up.

people have trouble with it as they often do when the numbers don’t reflect the experience of the people having to deal with it. Especially a guy who was on loaded teams before he got hurt, and was never the focus of an offense of his own.

A guard on a team that has four Hall of Fame caliber players Including the three time MVP and Doctor J is not going to take 25 shots of game like Wilkins, or the other top scorers of the day. But the players were pretty unequivocal that he was that caliber of scorer to deal with.

if you could find guards in the 80s in those little CBS interviews and on local media talking about Other players, you would have a much better understanding of the status he had.

if they had player polls back then and the question was who can’t you stop he would be right around the top of the list.

doesn’t mean he will be ranked as the best player in the league. It’s a bit like asking all the 2000s defenders who their toughest matchup was. Like half of them are going to say Carmelo Anthony. Doesn’t mean they think he was a better player than Lebron who scored more(often at the same time as well as in total). They arent talking About what most fans are talking about when they are asked those questions and their answers might not be reflected in the stats, which are the only way fans can fight back versus hands on experience.

They’re talking about being too strong while also being too quick. They’re talking about creating space in the triple threat and too fast a release on the jumper not to honor it but first step off the pump leaving you behind. They’re talking about finishing around the basket on the catch. They’re talking about reposting deep and getting the ball back and not being able to stop him walking you down.

Fans are generally talking about shooting percentages and points scored.

It’s two entirely different conversations, and I wish that instead of fighting about it we just acknowledge that getting different answers to different questions doesn’t necessarily make us enemies.

[NBAGOAT]

first of all, even the people you see who would correctly tell you players know more about basketball than most fans obviously know that since there are thousands of players with different opinions, they can’t all be automatically right. Youre just stretching the concept to an irrational extent nobody thinks to have something to argue with.

That said….id say it’s hilarious how strong fans opinions are about people they never saw take a single jumper.

Ive heard players say he was the best player they ever guarded and Barkley had him over Moses, Kevin Johnson, and Doc as the best player he ever played with.

What Bird is saying is they’re both on the unstoppable level of scorers. It’s just not something people are prepared to accept largely because they have absolutely no information about the guy. But at the time guys would talk about Toney, Bernard King, and Jordan as people you just couldn’t keep from scoring.

It wasn’t some piece by piece Internet forum style breakdown. More like “Who can’t you stop?” and his name would come up.

people have trouble with it as they often do when the numbers don’t reflect the experience of the people having to deal with it. Especially a guy who was on loaded teams before he got hurt, and was never the focus of an offense of his own.

A guard on a team that has four Hall of Fame caliber players Including the three time MVP and Doctor J is not going to take 25 shots of game like Wilkins, or the other top scorers of the day. But the players were pretty unequivocal that he was that caliber of scorer to deal with.

if you could find guards in the 80s in those little CBS interviews and on local media talking about Other players, you would have a much better understanding of the status he had.

if they had player polls back then and the question was who can’t you stop he would be right around the top of the list.

doesn’t mean he will be ranked as the best player in the league. It’s a bit like asking all the 2000s defenders who their toughest matchup was. Like half of them are going to say Carmelo Anthony. Doesn’t mean they think he was a better player than Lebron who scored more(often at the same time as well as in total). They arent talking About what most fans are talking about when they are asked those questions and their answers might not be reflected in the stats, which are the only way fans can fight back versus hands on experience.

They’re talking about being too strong while also being too quick. They’re talking about creating space in the triple threat and too fast a release on the jumper not to honor it but first step off the pump leaving you behind. They’re talking about finishing around the basket on the catch. They’re talking about reposting deep and getting the ball back and not being able to stop him walking you down.

Fans are generally talking about shooting percentages and points scored.

It’s two entirely different conversations, and I wish that instead of fighting about it we just acknowledge that getting different answers to different questions doesn’t necessarily make us enemies.

Sometimes the question being answered is the same. Kenyon Martin straight up said Kyrie is better than Luka in that case he’s just wrong.

The players are answering a different question, I would argue that question isn’t as relevant as others. You ask any coach from that era who’s toughest to game plan for on defense there are 5-10 guys he’ll pick over melo most likely. You ask a gm from that era who he want to start a team with, he also would pick 5-10 guys over melo most likely. Those answers matter far more than the players about who’s hard to guard

[Kblaze8855]

Five seconds later, when it was pushed back on, Kenyon asked who would win one on one to 11 or whatever it was to make his point. Again, he’s not asking what you’re asking. And even if he was like I said, there are thousands of players and thousands of opinions. If it were as simple as a player said it, so it has to be true? They would all say the same thing which they obviously don’t. There isnt a single person in the world who believes that to be the case. It just gets sad all the time. It’s this arguments version of “But Horry has 7 rings”. It’s a distortion of the point to avoid the meat of the argument.

And you’re talking about who is best to start a team with and hardest the game plan against when that also isn’t the question players are answering when you ask them who is the toughest to guard.

LeBron is harder to stop being generally effective than Carmelo. LeBron is one of the best passers of his generation. He was also so fast in the open court it looks like a glitch in the matrix. But when you mentally pick apart of team by knowing their defense, and how to use your teammates so your team score more than the other team and when you leak out like a gazelle and they stop running because they know they can’t chase you? When you hit threes because they have to stand 5 feet off of you at all times to stop the drive? The players aren’t standing there thinking “I can’t guard this guy”.

They acknowledge the greatness in the total game and the intelligence. They acknowledge the overwhelming athleticism that gives you more points.

It isn’t the same as “I can’t figure out how to defend this guy”.

it’s obviously 1000 miles from a GM survey on who you build a franchise around. And by the way, in the first one, Jordan didn’t even win that. He was third behind David Robinson and Magic. He was also behind magic in the selection for most clutch.

These things change drastically through the lens of history versus what people believe at the time. When we mix both viewing through the lens of history, and the fact that players are often answering an entirely different question, because they hear the question differently, there are obvious problems on the way.

[Kblaze8855]

https://youtu.be/Ot3StW-ZZ0o?si=ZCT7sHOLyLr9N3mo


Kevin Durant there or you can listen to Kobe and Paul Pierce give similar answers….

The issue we run into is that often those discussions don’t even reference things fans find impressive. You can find players talking about how they couldn’t do anything with Melo or Kobe in games he had like 24 points on average shooting.

Iggy explained it(Why Melo was the toughest to defend in the league) really simply. “He’s fat, he’s fast, and he can shoot”. That isn’t a fans answer. Paul Pierce saying it physically hurt to guard Melo isn’t a fan answer. Kobe and Paul George’s answers aren’t fan answers.

Fans often see this as 1+2 = 3. So of course a player who answers with a seven is considered an idiot but fans don’t realize that the problem is the language itself. The fans symbol that represents one is the players symbol representing five. So, of course, the math doesn’t result in the same answer.

we are comparing modern languages to ancient without a Rosetta Stone to reference. Neither side is as stupid as the other side thinks. The words they’re saying to each other simply mean different things, but we’re so tied up in being adversaries we don’t even look for the translation.

The players think fans are idiots and a lot of fans think players are idiots. They both know what they’re talking about within Their understanding of the question. But The words being used don’t mean the same thing in the respective languages. Everyone is fighting over the answer when the argument should be how to frame the question because that is most of the problem

[warriorfan]

The carmelo anthony anecdotes aren’t surprising at all. Even casual fans could see it and that is why he was always overrated. He could score effortlessly at will and do a bit of rebounding when he wanted too but wouldn’t bring anything else to the table. Epitome of an empty stats guy.

[tpols]

Sometimes the question being answered is the same. Kenyon Martin straight up said Kyrie is better than Luka in that case he’s just wrong.

The players are answering a different question, I would argue that question isn’t as relevant as others. You ask any coach from that era who’s toughest to game plan for on defense there are 5-10 guys he’ll pick over melo most likely. You ask a gm from that era who he want to start a team with, he also would pick 5-10 guys over melo most likely. Those answers matter far more than the players about who’s hard to guard


To be fair Kenyon Martin is a racist though. He's one of those super hood dudes who doesn't like white people. I remember when he hated on Jeremy Lin for having dreads saying he was stealing black culture or whatever.

[jayfan]

first of all, even the people you see who would correctly tell you players know more about basketball than most fans obviously know that since there are thousands of players with different opinions, they can’t all be automatically right. Youre just stretching the concept to an irrational extent nobody thinks to have something to argue with.

That said….id say it’s hilarious how strong fans opinions are about people they never saw take a single jumper.

Ive heard players say he was the best player they ever guarded and Barkley had him over Moses, Kevin Johnson, and Doc as the best player he ever played with.

What Bird is saying is they’re both on the unstoppable level of scorers. It’s just not something people are prepared to accept largely because they have absolutely no information about the guy. But at the time guys would talk about Toney, Bernard King, and Jordan as people you just couldn’t keep from scoring.

It wasn’t some piece by piece Internet forum style breakdown. More like “Who can’t you stop?” and his name would come up.

people have trouble with it as they often do when the numbers don’t reflect the experience of the people having to deal with it. Especially a guy who was on loaded teams before he got hurt, and was never the focus of an offense of his own.

A guard on a team that has four Hall of Fame caliber players Including the three time MVP and Doctor J is not going to take 25 shots of game like Wilkins, or the other top scorers of the day. But the players were pretty unequivocal that he was that caliber of scorer to deal with.

if you could find guards in the 80s in those little CBS interviews and on local media talking about Other players, you would have a much better understanding of the status he had.

if they had player polls back then and the question was who can’t you stop he would be right around the top of the list.

doesn’t mean he will be ranked as the best player in the league. It’s a bit like asking all the 2000s defenders who their toughest matchup was. Like half of them are going to say Carmelo Anthony. Doesn’t mean they think he was a better player than Lebron who scored more(often at the same time as well as in total). They arent talking About what most fans are talking about when they are asked those questions and their answers might not be reflected in the stats, which are the only way fans can fight back versus hands on experience.

They’re talking about being too strong while also being too quick. They’re talking about creating space in the triple threat and too fast a release on the jumper not to honor it but first step off the pump leaving you behind. They’re talking about finishing around the basket on the catch. They’re talking about reposting deep and getting the ball back and not being able to stop him walking you down.

Fans are generally talking about shooting percentages and points scored.

It’s two entirely different conversations, and I wish that instead of fighting about it we just acknowledge that getting different answers to different questions doesn’t necessarily make us enemies.

:applause:

.

[Kblaze8855]

To be fair Kenyon Martin is a racist though. He's one of those super hood dudes who doesn't like white people. I remember when he hated on Jeremy Lin for having dreads saying he was stealing black culture or whatever.


Did he ever respond when Lin pointed out that Kenyon had Chinese writing tattoos and we all celebrate each other? If he did I don’t remember.

[FireDavidKahn]

Jordan fans in shambles

[dankok8]

Did he ever respond when Lin pointed out that Kenyon had Chinese writing tattoos and we all celebrate each other? If he did I don’t remember.

Isn't the Martin guy who plays in the league right now (Heat?) Kenyon's son?

[jayfan]

Isn't the Martin guy who plays in the league right now (Heat?) Kenyon's son?


No, Caleb Martin (Heat) and his twin brother Cody (Hornets) aren't related to Kenyon Martin.

Kenyon does have a son in the league, though. KJ Martin. With the 6ers this year after first few with Houston.


.

[Wardell Curry]

This is why it's hilarious when people say we should take players opinions as gospel

Yeah but Larry Bird said that! Elite all timers can never be wrong, even when they disagree with one another.

In fact, I'm so mindblowingly stubborn and prideful that I will never admit to being wrong, never move off of this position and just continue to gaslight the posters here into thinking I still actually believe this. I will double down every single time I discuss this topic, even though I have increasingly avoided it as more and more players have said more and more horrendously dumb shit over and over.


Oh wait, I'm not that one particular mod here.

[3ba11]

3ball about to drop Bird out of his top 10.

I remember him getting super butt hurt when Duncan revealed he wasn't a big MJ fan. :lol


Bird probably doesn't mean that Toney is a better scorer overall but that he gave the Sixers a bucket as well as anyone could in that role.

If he didn't have HOF teammates like Dr. J, Bobby Jones, Mo Cheeks or Moses Malone, he wouldn't fly under the radar and he would face maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load), which is the way MJ was forced to win 6 titles (otherwise a rare way to win).

vinnie johnson was just as lethal as mj.. within his role on those pistons.. these guys "mj'd" their roles.. that's what bird is saying.

[Wally450]

You people have no clue, Andrew Toney would be a nightmare for any current player trying to guard him.

And he would have been an all-time great, but injuries shortened his career.

I could say the same for Greg Oden.

[jayfan]

I could say the same for Greg Oden.


Wait...what?



What did Greg Oden ever do in the league?

Andrew Toney was a championship level all-star scorer for several years prior to injury.

[jlip]

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/old-school/larry-bird-names-the-only-shooting-guard-he-feared-besides-michael-jordan

"To me, there wasn't much of a difference between the two when it came to the sheer ability to score. Michael has always come off more picks (until they moved him to point guard late in the 1988-89 season), whereas Andrew would just throw his guy off and go. Just when the 76ers really needed a basket is exactly when Andrew would get it," - Larry Bird

Why are people missing this part? Even if you think that there may be a hint of hyperbole in Bird's statement, it's important to understand that ability does not equal willingness nor opportunity. Unlike fans who are only watching, player's often see scoring ability in terms of how difficult it is to guard the player and how easily that scorer can get his shots off, not necessarily the final tally of points. While it's not completely apples to oranges, for years opposing players were claiming that Melo was the toughest player to guard and arguably the best "scorer" in the league despite his contemporaries such as Wade and Bron winning scoring titles during Melo's prime.


Edit: I hadn't read Kblaze's post above, but yeah. What he said.

[Kblaze8855]

Yeah but Larry Bird said that! Elite all timers can never be wrong, even when they disagree with one another.

In fact, I'm so mindblowingly stubborn and prideful that I will never admit to being wrong, never move off of this position and just continue to gaslight the posters here into thinking I still actually believe this. I will double down every single time I discuss this topic, even though I have increasingly avoided it as more and more players have said more and more horrendously dumb shit over and over.


Oh wait, I'm not that one particular mod here.

I’ll talk to everybody about everything with the rare exception of people I find to be the belligerent variety of troll. On this particular issue you are one of those so I largely ignore you which has apparently gotten under your skin as you attempted to draw me into fighting with you eight or nine times about it. When I say some version of “Obviously a players words can’t automatically make something true because there are thousands of players who have conflicting opinions” as I’ve been saying for 20 years on here and you come with:




Elite all timers can never be wrong, even when they disagree with one another.




we are no longer talking to each other. I’m talking to you trying to explain a misunderstanding, and you are talking at me having armed yourself with a bullshit argument nobody is making.

Basically I’m trying to talk to other fans and get us all on the same page, and you are trying to have a never ending fight, fueled by a purposeful misunderstanding, or simply being blind.

there was a time I would’ve indulged you for 300 posts but these days I recognize such things at a glance and choose instead to disregard you. It’s entirely possible I won’t speak to you again until 2025, but you can continue making snide remarks, trying to draw me out while I scroll past your name and disregard whatever is next to it. I try to bring sides of an argument together, or at least explain where I’m coming from and try to understand where somebody else is coming from. You seem to be actively trying to evade understanding.

I just don’t feel anyone here benefits from me talking to you at that point. You’re an unnecessary speed bump in otherwise civil discussion and there is plenty of room to go around you without slowing down. So I’m gonna go ahead and do that. Have a great afternoon though.

[tontoz]

Side note i remember Barkley telling a story about Toney. Barkley was getting frustrated with Toney, thought he was dogging it. He walked up to Toney on the bench and realized Toney was crying. He was breaking down over his feet. He was basically done at 27, similar to Brandon Roy.

[FultzNationRISE]

Shut it down ladies and gentlemen, LETS GO HOME!!!!

Aint no GOAT of mine getting compared on equal terms as a player to Andrew Toney.

Lebron would NEVERRRR.


It’s a wrap yall. Lebron WINS.

[Xiao Yao You]

I could say the same for Greg Oden.

you could but did he ever do anything? Toney did

[sdot_thadon]

1st thing that came to mind is when players mention a guy we don't think very highly of being the toughest to guard or on one of their lists as the best. In all honesty, who here actually knows who tf Toney is? Probably just a handful who are either old enough or historians that watch old games. I always keep.in mind that especially in the old league, role matters and were pretty rigid. If it wasn't your role to shoot a bunch, you didn't get the touches. So there could be more talent in limited roles than what appears on the surface.

[ralph_i_el]

So, is Toney better than God? Bird said MJ was God.

Depends, is ISO scoring the only ability in basketball?

[999Guy]

This is why it's hilarious when people say we should take players opinions as gospel

Now wait until people realize even the coaches and GM's are as dumb as rocks.

[ralph_i_el]

Sometimes I think guys like Bron and MJ get less respect than they might from other players, because they got so many buckets that had the defense feeling like there was nothing they could have done to stop it. Some guys get more buckets through craftiness, so they might make the defender feel worse. Like, they could have stopped it had they not been baited into the wrong choice. Just watched a bunch of YouTube of Toney, great footwork and a quick+high release J. Definitely had to have some guys feeling down.

[Axe]

I could say the same for Greg Oden.
Seriously? Lmao.

[SATAN]

If MJ's career was cut short by injury he probably would have been remembered as a slightly better version of Andrew Toney (due to MJ's defense obviously). There would be no goat debates. This site would have died long ago unless there were still delusional Kareem stans here. Skip Bayless might have a real job. Weird to think about.

[ELITEpower23]

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/old-school/larry-bird-names-the-only-shooting-guard-he-feared-besides-michael-jordan

"To me, there wasn't much of a difference between the two when it came to the sheer ability to score. Michael has always come off more picks (until they moved him to point guard late in the 1988-89 season), whereas Andrew would just throw his guy off and go. Just when the 76ers really needed a basket is exactly when Andrew would get it," - Larry Bird

:pimp:

[AussieSteve]

I think Charles Barkley is on record saying that Toney is the best player he ever played with. Which is big call for a guy who played with Moses and Dr J.

Toney only had like 4 good seasons though, before injury ended his career.