Is Tyrese one of the GOAT points or are you disregarding todays numbers?

[Kblaze8855]

I’m not sure there is a valid third option.


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2312010747030112.jpeg

[Kblaze8855]

He’s got like 35/7 in the third quarter right now by the way.

[RRR3]

Oscar is considered one of the GOATs for putting up numbers playing at a similarly crazy pace :confusedshrug:

People keep acting like we haven't seen this pace of play before


Yes he's easily one of the best we've seen and he's still improving. Scary stuff

[tontoz]

He's 23. Let the kid play for awhile before you do you old man screaming at clouds routine.

[Carbine]

Yes.

Only thing he needs is playoff success now and secure being the top PG for his era.

[Xiao Yao You]

Yes.

Only thing he needs is playoff success now and secure being the top PG for his era.

some D might help

[Carbine]

Nash didn't play much D and he is still the GOAT pg of his era. Him or Kidd.

[Kblaze8855]

Oscar is considered one of the GOATs for putting up numbers playing at a similarly crazy pace




Oscar only gets his status from numbers in the eyes of the people who didn’t see him play. The people stressing his numbers these days are generally not putting him anywhere in that conversation. The people who were calling him the best player they ever saw were doing it before chick Hearn even coined the phrase triple double. Nobody gave two shits about them until the 80s.

You’re not wrong that it’s the main thing people today know about him, but most of those people don’t actually give him goat status. The people who think highest of him did so before the numbers were really cared about.

[Kblaze8855]

He's 23. Let the kid play for awhile before you do you old man screaming at clouds routine.

did you read something negative? I genuinely don’t even know what you’re talking about. You’ve never seen me criticize this man in anyway.

[tontoz]

did you read something negative? I genuinely don’t even know what you’re talking about. You’ve never seen me criticize this man in anyway.

Your title to the thread literally says "are you disregarding today's numbers".

You've been reading too much 3ball.



https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/g195/tontoz/Inside%20Hoops/.highres/840937-Beatingadeadhorse.gif

[Kblaze8855]

You know that when presented with two options, you can choose either one, right? The point wasn’t that you should disregard today’s numbers. The point is if you don’t disregard the numbers, he’s having that caliber of year. Obviously some people do and obviously some people don’t. We are obviously selective, in who we choose to acknowledge.

We have all seemed comfortable disregarding Trae Young’s all time point guard production for years, but are pretty comfortable acknowledging some other people, even though he has had similar playoff success to a lot of of them. I’m asking which one Halliburton falls under for you personally.

i’m not certain I’ve ever said a negative word about the guy. I think the only topic I ever made about him was pointing out when Wally was criticizing him calling him a fake Allstar for no good reason last year.

[tontoz]

You know that when presented with two options, you can choose either one, right? The point wasn’t that you should disregard today’s numbers. The point is if you don’t disregard the numbers, he’s having that caliber of year. Obviously some people do and obviously some people don’t. We are obviously selective, in who we choose to acknowledge.

We have all seemed comfortable disregarding Trae Young’s all time point guard production for years, but are pretty comfortable acknowledging some other people, even though he has had similar playoff success to a lot of of them. I’m asking which one Halliburton falls under for you personally.

i’m not certain I’ve ever said a negative word about the guy. I think the only topic I ever made about him was pointing out when Wally was criticizing him calling him a fake Allstar for no good reason last year.



This isn't just about haliburton. It is about your obsession with trying to discredit numbers of today's players because they make players from other players look bad by comparison. It is old and tired. Get over it ffs.


It doesn't matter how he compares with Nash ( who averaged 9-3 at age 23). What matters is how he compares to the guys he is playing against. Why not compare him to Trae in the OP Instead of a guy who won MVP almost 20 years ago?

[Carbine]

This isn't just about haliburton. It is about your obsession with trying to discredit numbers of today's players because they make players from other players look bad by comparison. It is old and tired. Get over it ffs.


It doesn't matter how he compares with Nash ( who averaged 9-3 at age 23). What matters is how he compares to the guys he is playing against. Why not compare him to Trae in the OP Instead of a guy who won MVP almost 20 years ago?

Exactly

When Kbald starts comparing players from the same era instead of cross eras he will.be.a.much better poster.

[Kblaze8855]

Look to Who? Who do you think I’m talking to? Do you think I think everyone here thinks all these wings are better than late 90s Jordan because many have better numbers than 29/6/4 on 47/24? Anyone here saying Giannis is the GOAT big because of 30-12-5 in like 30 minutes? I don’t see it.

obviously most if not all of you don’t take it all at face value anymore so I don’t know who you think I would be trying to convince otherwise. It is obviously case by case. The question is where does he fall in that.

You have Trae, KAT, and so on who have legendary production nobody acknowledges and a few who everyone does. And it isn’t as simple as who has won a little in the playoffs.

The question, despite your attempt to start another endless argument on the numbers as a whole is which side do you place him on. Why he’s compared specifically to Nash in a meme I’ve seen two or three times lately I can’t say. I don’t often make such content. I repost it to have discussions.

This one…is about how seriously you take him.

[eliteballer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IPXSqOhykg

[Kblaze8855]

Exactly

When Kbald starts comparing players from the same era instead of cross eras he will.be.a.much better poster.


I actually believe my first two topics here were comparing Wilt Chamberlain to the bigs of 2002 and a topic about spud Webb being better than people assume he was.

anyway, almost every time we have had somebody lately doing ridiculous numbers it’s them being compared to people all time and not by me. I’m generally the one who comes along talking about how I don’t even know how to make the comparison the way people are trying because of the differences.

You don’t see me making topics asking where to put Giannis or Jokic all time. I just inevitably end up in them explaining why I have no idea where to start because the game is so different.

In fact, about a month ago, I made a topic explaining just that, and that I was getting out of the whole comparison game in general and you ended up in it agreeing that a tier system is all you can do across eras.

[tontoz]

I haven't seen anyone here compare haliburton to Nash. But if you really want to compare across eras then you really need to start with per 100 possession numbers which will normalize for pace.

Also we have to keep in mind that Indy plays at the fastest pace in the league by far which inflates his per game numbers a bit


I don't expect him to be able to maintain this level of play all season. He's only played 15 games. But for the sake of argument let's assume he does maintain this for the entire season. In that case it would far surpass any season from Trae.

In spite of playing at the fastest pace in the league he is averaging only 2.5 turnovers per game while leading the league in assists. Trae averages 4 turnovers per game routinely. Trae is also one of the worst defenders in the league. And Trae has never come close to Haliburton's level of shooting from 2 or 3.

So he is far better than Trae.

[Kblaze8855]

After a brief search , I feel like the Nash thing is from a discussion a coach had on a podcast asking for the historical comparison, and he suggested that Tyrese is what Nash would be in this league because he would be expected to score more.

[Xiao Yao You]

I actually believe my first two topics here were comparing Wilt Chamberlain to the bigs of 2002 and a topic about spud Webb being better than people assume he was.

anyway, almost every time we have had somebody lately doing ridiculous numbers it’s them being compared to people all time and not by me. I’m generally the one who comes along talking about how I don’t even know how to make the comparison the way people are trying because of the differences.

You don’t see me making topics asking where to put Giannis or Jokic all time. I just inevitably end up in them explaining why I have no idea where to start because the game is so different.

In fact, about a month ago, I made a topic explaining just that, and that I was getting out of the whole comparison game in general and you ended up in it agreeing that a tier system is all you can do across eras.

Spud was a good pg. Pretty much every night multiple guys are doing something historic. Can't take any of it too seriously against other eras

[Kblaze8855]

Ok so yea there is a Tyrese/Nash discussion on various social medias but I don’t know the origin. A reporter asked Rick Carslile about it though and the pacers posted it just 3 hours ago so it’s obviously an ongoing discussion


https://twitter.com/pacers/status/1730383228286992475?s=46&t=6wC01e_jvrTUpW4eOxrXKA



so I don’t know where it came from but I’m now seeing a lot of it. The general idea seems to be he’s what Steve Nash would be mixed with discussion about the season he’s having being better than any Steve Nash season. Which discussion came first I can’t say. I just saw a bunch of pic comparisons and saved them for later.

[Kblaze8855]

Oh and he had 44/10 tonight but the Heat came back to win.

[Kblaze8855]

https://youtu.be/iVZ9G_Nwpn4?si=tQT1PPOCoLLwoMmX

[tontoz]

After a brief search , I feel like the Nash thing is from a discussion a coach had on a podcast asking for the historical comparison, and he suggested that Tyrese is what Nash would be in this league because he would be expected to score more.


He probably would. He did score more after Amar'e went down and did average 24 ppg the playoffs that first year with the Suns. He was an elite shooter and could turn up his scoring when he wanted.to.

But he was 30 when he won MVP. Tyrese is 23 and has played 15 games this season. It just seems like a ridiculous comparison.

There were a lot of wizards fans I know that are really into the draft and were saying loudly that we should pick him. Yet another misstep by wizards mgt although Deni is looking a lot better this year.

[tontoz]

16 3 pt attempts tonight :lol. That just didn't happen in previous eras. If Nash had hunted 3s like guys do now I am sure he would have been very effective with it.

[RRR3]

The 60s had equally inflated stats why aren't we disregarding them then? You had nobodies like Terry Dischinger putting up 26 and 8. Walt Bellamy put up 32/19 his rookie year, why aren't we talking about him as one of the GOAT centers?

[Kblaze8855]

I heard Nash talking about it a few years ago and he mentioned all those guys realize they didn’t shoot enough threes back then, even though they felt like they shot a lot. They were pretty revolutionary, but were still taking a lot of mid range jumpers. Considering what we thought about those teams at the time it’s hard to believe that would be remembered as Mike Dantonis conservative era. At least if we pretend he wasn’t coaching the Nuggets for a while there.

[Kblaze8855]

The 60s had equally inflated stats why aren't we disregarding them then? You had nobodies like Terry Dischinger putting up 26 and 8. Walt Bellamy put up 32/19 his rookie year, why aren't we talking about him as one of the GOAT centers?

that’s a weird post. You ask why the great numbers from then aren’t disregarded and then mentioned someone who had great numbers whose name may well have never been spoken aloud in 30 years by anyone not related to him. Obviously people do disregard the 60s numbers. Elgin Baylor averaged like 38 and 20 and I haven’t seen him at or near the top of any all-time forward list recently. Maybe an honorable mention but he’s not at the top. Neither is Pettit. Or Walt Bellamy. People pretend none of that shit happened.

It’s always case by case. You get a few people who have what they did acknowledged and a lot of people aren’t. Absolutely nobody cares that Michael Adams had a 27 and 11 season for those weird ass Denver Nuggets.

We just have to determine where each player stands. Halliburton seems to be getting a great deal of respect right now. Just remains to be seen how much it holds up. I think he signed a giant contract last season so unless he demands a trade, he stuck where he is for a while and I don’t know how much help he’s ever going to get there.

[iamgine]

Completely disregard? Or just take a bit of caution?

There's not just two option.

[Kblaze8855]

Completely disregard? Or just take a bit of caution?

There's not just two option.

it kind of feels like people choose one of the two options. Karl Anthony Towns has two or three seasons nobody else has ever had and I’m not certain I’ve ever seen him even get a rating. I don’t mean top five or top 10. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anyone say KAT is top anything. It’s like he doesn’t exist. Trae Young doesn’t seem to exist either. Some of these people just melt completely into the background and become nothing.

[ShawkFactory]

Idk about GOAT points but I’m getting pretty close to cementing him as a top 10 guy in the league. Nobody would ever have any reason to watch the pacers but he has it.

Would I take even Booker over him right now? I don’t really know that I would.

It’s not really the numbers for me though. He’s tall, long, quick, dead-eye shooter, and sees everything.

[Kblaze8855]

Idk about GOAT points but I’m getting pretty close to cementing him as a top 10 guy in the league. Nobody would ever have any reason to watch the pacers but he has it.

Would I take even Booker over him right now? I don’t really know that I would.

It’s not really the numbers for me though. He’s tall, long, quick, dead-eye shooter, and sees everything.


is there a point guard who was ever a top 10 player in the league who isn’t one of the great points of all time? It’s a tough question but I’m not sure anyone to get that high league wide wasn’t an all timer. Maybe a few people who got injured like Penny Hardaway.

If a point is a top 10 player, he is somewhere in the all time point discussion usually.

Does someone who disproves that immediately come to mind?

I’d say Gary Payton reached top 10 status in the very late 90s and early 2000s. Gary is one of the goat points isn’t he? Or when we say that do we mean like top three all time? Gary is about as low as you get among points who hit top 10 status and he’s in that best points ever talk.

Not the answer. But he’s in that class if the class isn’t cut off at like…5 guys.

[RRR3]

that’s a weird post. You ask why the great numbers from then aren’t disregarded and then mentioned someone who had great numbers whose name may well have never been spoken aloud in 30 years by anyone not related to him. Obviously people do disregard the 60s numbers. Elgin Baylor averaged like 38 and 20 and I haven’t seen him at or near the top of any all-time forward list recently. Maybe an honorable mention but he’s not at the top. Neither is Pettit. Or Walt Bellamy. People pretend none of that shit happened.

It’s always case by case. You get a few people who have what they did acknowledged and a lot of people aren’t. Absolutely nobody cares that Michael Adams had a 27 and 11 season for those weird ass Denver Nuggets.

We just have to determine where each player stands. Halliburton seems to be getting a great deal of respect right now. Just remains to be seen how much it holds up. I think he signed a giant contract last season so unless he demands a trade, he stuck where he is for a while and I don’t know how much help he’s ever going to get there.
Who doesn't think Elgin Baylor wasn't one of the greatest small forwards ever? Only people who don't know history. Basketball historians rate him and Pettit highly.

[RRR3]

For what it's worth EPM has Tyrese as the 4th most impactful player in the league so far after Jokic, SGA and Embiid which I don't completely agree with but would say is relatively accurate. Although Giannis' impact stats are down because he had a rough (for him) start.

[ShawkFactory]

is there a point guard who was ever a top 10 player in the league who isn’t one of the great points of all time? It’s a tough question but I’m not sure anyone to get that high wise wasn’t an all timer. Maybe a few people who got injured like Penny Hardaway.

If a point is a top 10 player, he is somewhere in the all time point discussion usually.

Does someone who disproves that immediately come to mind?

I’d say Gary Payton reached top 10 status in the very late 90s and early 2000s. Gary is one of the goat points isn’t he? Or when we say that do we mean like top three all time?

I suppose that’s a good point but generally speaking it takes time and some semblance of team success. Even a couple Dame-like playoff moment will do the trick.

But a point sticking with a bad team for the hell of it will be Dame. He was borderline top 10 for like 5-6 years and no one puts him up there really.

[Kblaze8855]

You haven’t heard Bobs name said out loud in person in your entire life. You damn sure have heard someone say the name of Tim Duncan, Charles Barkley KG, Dirk and so on. You’ve also heard somebody say Bill Russell. And wilt. Maybe even Oscar. Like I said, there are always people who get acknowledged even though they play right next to people we choose to ignore. Most of the people doing numbers in the 60s have become completely disregarded. Those numbers don’t matter to most fans. Perhaps they should but that’s a different discussion.

[Kblaze8855]

I suppose that’s a good point but generally speaking it takes time and some semblance of team success. Even a couple Dame-like playoff moment will do the trick.

But a point sticking with a bad team for the hell of it will be Dame. He was borderline top 10 for like 5-6 years and no one puts him up there really.


it only now occurs to me Dame doesn’t even come to mind when I think of point guards. And I’m not one of those people who think people who score aren’t point guards. He just somehow doesn’t enter my mind when I think of one. He might be the example I was thinking of. he snuck into that top 75, but he wouldn’t even enter my mind if someone asked me for a list of the best points ever.

Maybe it’s because I literally have no memory of him passing a basketball. Obviously I know he does but I don’t have a single memory of one.

[RRR3]

You haven’t heard Bobs name said out loud in person in your entire life. You damn sure have heard someone say the name of Tim Duncan, Charles Barkley KG, Dirk and so on. You’ve also heard somebody say Bill Russell. And wilt. Maybe even Oscar. Like I said, there are always people who get acknowledged even though they play right next to people we choose to ignore. Most of the people doing numbers in the 60s have become completely disregarded. Those numbers don’t matter to most fans. Perhaps they should but that’s a different discussion.
Pettit's resume has to be top 25 or so, he should be talked about regardless of whether he is or not.

[Kblaze8855]

Resume wise higher than that. But you were asking why 60s numbers aren’t disregarded and he’s a pretty good example to me of how they are. He was a 30 and 20 player. A two-time MVP. Like 10 time all NBA first team. I think he has the only 50 point finals closeout game other than Giannis and he did it in game seven. yes Bill Russell was hurt but only weirdos like me know those details. He’s just one of those people history doesn’t give a shit about. And it would be easy to say the reason is how long ago it was except at least three other people who were playing against him do get acknowledged.

But really it’s only those 3. Jerry West is pretty ignored as well. Baylor even more so.

The numbers from those days absolutely don’t get credit.

Those times happen. Maybe this is one. But there are always a few who overcome it.

Youd think winning was the key but it doesn’t appear to be. Like I said….Bob won. Nobody cares.

[ShawkFactory]

it only now occurs to me Dame doesn’t even come to mind when I think of point guards. And I’m not one of those people who think people who score aren’t point guards. He just somehow doesn’t enter my mind when I think of one. He might be the example I was thinking of. he snuck into that top 75, but he wouldn’t even enter my mind if someone asked me for a list of the best points ever.

Maybe it’s because I literally have no memory of him passing a basketball. Obviously I know he does but I don’t have a single memory of one.

He’s a strange one for sure. No one saw him pass because no one saw him. Not that passing is what he’s best at. But does he pass less than say..Steph? I feel like positionally they’re almost no different.

[Kblaze8855]

There was a time when Steph was passing his ass off. He had a good alley oop connection with one of their other young players early in his career. He was coming down, throwing lobs from half court. I made a highlight video of him and Tyreke Evans early in their career, and it was mostly playmaking. he developed into an off ball monster when Kerr got there. It was in him but he was more prone to dribble before that. I legitimately remember a lot of Steph Curry passes. Spectacular ones. My mental folder for Damian Lillard passing a basketball is empty. No exaggeration. I do not remember that man ever passing the basketball once.

[Kblaze8855]

https://youtu.be/glqszwfzFoA?si=weQZ4x4mKpUwfBGS


It was Dorrell Wright. They had a good connection for a minute. That pass specifically was in my Curry passing memories. That file is empty for Dame. I could Google it and find some I’m certain but I honestly don’t remember a single one

[hateraid]

It's all subjective with a little eye test. Stats is 30% of the equation of who the most important player is on a team. There's intangibles, dominance, IQ, impact, unique game style, influence, team record.... Tyrese have great stats today, but Nash still had competition at the PG and was clearly better at the time. AI had 33 and 7.5 and Nash was clearly more valuable

Stats are definitely a great measurable but take into account all aspects. Haliburton might not even be the best Tyrese at the end of this season...

[iamgine]

is there a point guard who was ever a top 10 player in the league who isn’t one of the great points of all time? It’s a tough question but I’m not sure anyone to get that high league wide wasn’t an all timer. Maybe a few people who got injured like Penny Hardaway.

If a point is a top 10 player, he is somewhere in the all time point discussion usually.

Does someone who disproves that immediately come to mind?


Well what's all timer though? Westbrook, Lillard, Tim Hardaway, KJ, Price - are they considered all timer? If so then sure Haliburton has a good chance.

[Manny98]

The fact that he's leading the best offense in the league despite no real offensive weapons around him is what's most impressive

If he keeps it up and does it in the playoffs with a better team then he absolutely belongs on the same tier as a CP3 & Steve Nash

[fsvr54]

Thinking Halliburton is a top 10 player is clinically insane (referring to the poster who said that).

[iamgine]

To me Haliburton is approaching top 5 now. He's that good.

[tontoz]

Steph's passing is his big weakness imo. He is too careless with the ball. Some of his turnovers are embarrassing.

[Wally450]

Yes, I'm disregarding him currently. Let's see him in the playoffs.

[ShawkFactory]

Yes, I'm disregarding him currently. Let's see him in the playoffs.

It's fine if you want to wait until the playoffs to rank him amongst guys who have done it. But disregarding him completely, i.e. not watching him at all,is a disservice to yourself.

[Wally450]

It's fine if you want to wait until the playoffs to rank him amongst guys who have done it. But disregarding him completely, i.e. not watching him at all,is a disservice to yourself.

Tbf I don't catch many Pacers games. They aren't normally nationally televised, and I don't have league pass or anything. I only usually watch Celtics games, or TNT/ESPN games.

I'm probably being a little harsh on him. I've fallen victim to guys putting up numbers and looking good in the regular season, only to come up short in the playoffs and look terrible doing it, too many times.

[dankok8]

Still a very small sample of games. Let's wait for at least 30-40 games to be played.

But yea he seems dominant!

[ILLsmak]

is there a point guard who was ever a top 10 player in the league who isn’t one of the great points of all time? It’s a tough question but I’m not sure anyone to get that high league wide wasn’t an all timer. Maybe a few people who got injured like Penny Hardaway.

If a point is a top 10 player, he is somewhere in the all time point discussion usually.

Does someone who disproves that immediately come to mind?

I’d say Gary Payton reached top 10 status in the very late 90s and early 2000s. Gary is one of the goat points isn’t he? Or when we say that do we mean like top three all time? Gary is about as low as you get among points who hit top 10 status and he’s in that best points ever talk.

Not the answer. But he’s in that class if the class isn’t cut off at like…5 guys.

re: GP, the thing with PGs is that it, more than anything else, is dependent on your team style, imo at least. Like if you throw GP on those 04 Piston teams or throw him on the Spurs teams after, even instead of Billups or TP, I think they would get way better, in a way that if you put Magic Johnson on them, they might not. Even tho Magic is by far a higher rank player.

-Smak

[Smook A.]

Let's appreciate how much he's elevated his game. As good as he was in his rookie season, no one expected him to be this good, let alone be arguably the best playmaker in the NBA.

[Airupthere]

Tbf I don't catch many Pacers games. They aren't normally nationally televised, and I don't have league pass or anything. I only usually watch Celtics games, or TNT/ESPN games.

I'm probably being a little harsh on him. I've fallen victim to guys putting up numbers and looking good in the regular season, only to come up short in the playoffs and look terrible doing it, too many times.

Are you talking about Tatum and Brown?

[warriorfan]

You can disregard numbers from certain players from every era. Every era has had “empty stats” guys who put up huge numbers but have questionable impact and they have had players who get generally underrated because their impact wasn’t really shown through their less than gaudy statistics.

Most of the time it’s common sense. Are Halliburton’s stats somewhat inflated? Yes. Is Haliburton playing at a very high level at 23 years old and there are a large handful of nba execs who are kicking themselves for passing on the guy? Yes.


What happens is people fade these new guys because their stats are a bit inflated, but in the process they fade them too hard.

[Kblaze8855]

You can disregard numbers from certain players



Thats exactly what I’m asking about. If he’s one of them or not.

[warriorfan]

Thats exactly what I’m asking about. If he’s one of them or not.

It’s too early to tell. He’s a kid who got dropped onto not one of the best teams and he’s trying to make the most of it. We will have to wait and see. So far it looks like the kid can play though. Hell, I wish we drafted him lol.

[Kblaze8855]

I’m wondering what the kings are thinking. Sabonis is so key to the way they play and the turnaround but a lot of their fans still regret that trade. Maybe wish they traded Fox instead?

They might both end up in the same hall of fame if they stay healthy.

[warriorfan]

Kings want to kill themselves right now. Or should at least. They just signed Sabonis to a gigantic 4 year close to 200 mil contract for a Center who doesn’t play defense and doesn’t have a right hand. He had a pretty epic collapse in the playoffs vs the Warriors last year.

He’s not the worst player but when you ended up with him on a 200 mil contract when you could of had haliburton….

That hurts

[Xiao Yao You]

Thats exactly what I’m asking about. If he’s one of them or not.

they're talking about Fox playing both ends of the court now which the Pacers certainly aren't

[Kblaze8855]

I don’t know for sure. I mean, is he better than Tyrese? No, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s a worse fit. Sometimes I turn on a Kings game and it looks like one of those beautiful game Spurs compilations where they pass it eight times and somebody gets a layup or an open three.

And half the time he initiated the play got it back on like pass four and got it back again For the pass that leads to the assist. It really is pretty basketball and he does seem pretty key to it. He might be getting a little more hate than I feel is justified. He didn’t do what he should in the playoffs, but he was a big reason that team played the way they played to get there in the first place after all those years.

They might have buyers remorse if they overpaid, but that trade might be win bigger win, not win, lose. In this far a fan of the guy. Maybe I need to watch more to see the big problem people have with him.

Seems really skilled to me.

[warriorfan]

I don’t know for sure. I mean, is he better than Tyrese? No, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s a worse fit. Sometimes I turn on a Kings game and it looks like one of those beautiful game Spurs compilations where they pass it eight times and somebody gets a layup or an open three.

And half the time he initiated the play got it back on like pass four and got it back again For the pass that leads to the assist. It really is pretty basketball and he does seem pretty key to it. He might be getting a little more hate than I feel is justified. He didn’t do what he should in the playoffs, but he was a big reason that team played the way they played to get there in the first place after all those years.

They might have buyers remorse if they overpaid, but that trade might be win bigger win, not win, lose. In this far a fan of the guy. Maybe I need to watch more to see the big problem people have with him.

Seems really skilled to me.

He is skilled but he needs to play better defense. Part of it is his role, he’s more of a power forward than a center in my opinion. Him having skills is the bizarre part of him never developing a right hand. Lefties are usually better at picking up right handed stuff than the other way around as well. I think that’s gonna limit him in the playoffs again when the defenses get tougher and they face him over and over again.

[Kblaze8855]

I think I’ll go ahead and watch this game versus the Celtics tonight and let that decide how I feel about him for the next three or four years. He might come out of it a Mt Rushmore contender or as Michael Adams. It’s up to him.

[Xiao Yao You]

I think I’ll go ahead and watch this game versus the Celtics tonight and let that decide how I feel about him for the next three or four years. He might come out of it a Mt Rushmore contender or as Michael Adams. It’s up to him.

He's not Michael Adams I can tell you that right now :facepalm

[Xiao Yao You]

The 'big' Adams year he shot an Iverson like 39% and 30% from 3 on 9 attempts. We can compare him to Iverson, Baron Davis and some of your other favorites. Haliburon is a great pg

[tontoz]

The 'big' Adams year he shot an Iverson like 39% and 30% from 3 on 9 attempts. We can compare him to Iverson, Baron Davis and some of your other favorites. Haliburon is a great pg


I realize that was an attempt at humor but he needs to do better.

[Kblaze8855]

Do better for who? Nobody here under 40 even knows who I’m talking about and anyone who does should understand why he would be the example used opposite being a Mt Rushmore point. I shouldn’t have to explain it.

[tontoz]

Do better for who? Nobody here under 40 even knows who I’m talking about and anyone who does should understand why he would be the example used opposite being a Mt Rushmore point. I shouldn’t have to explain it.

No. The mount Rushmore thing could actually happen. Adams will never be a comp for Tyrese under any circumstances.

[Kblaze8855]

Based on his averages I imagine this is the worst game he’s played this season. I’m not seeing anything reminiscent of great point guard play but it’s just one half obviously. Plus he’s been sick lately. But the last two touches he just dribbled like 5 times and jacked up a long three. Made the first and air balled the second. I’m obviously not serious about judging his new level on this game alone but so far it’s meh. Usually saying such things triggers insane runs by the target so it’s see if the ish reverse jinx applies.

He did just drive into an airballed ill advised contested foul line floater as I typed though and Tatum abused him for a dunk on the other end. Hopefully he’s just sick. This obviously isn’t his usual level.

Ill check back another game or two before I offer a serious opinion.

[tontoz]

Based on his averages I imagine this is the worst game he’s played this season. I’m not seeing anything reminiscent of great point guard play but it’s just one half obviously. Plus he’s been sick lately. But the last two touches he just dribbled like 5 times and jacked up a long three. Made the first and air balled the second. I’m obviously not serious about judging his new level on this game alone but so far it’s meh. Usually saying such things triggers insane runs by the target so it’s see if the ish reverse jinx applies.

He did just drive into an airballed ill advised contested foul line floater as I typed though and Tatum abused him for a dunk on the other end. Hopefully he’s just sick. This obviously isn’t his usual level.

Ill check back another game or two before I offer a serious opinion.


He was questionable to play tonight with a knee injury.

We don't even need to look at what he's doing this season. He averaged 20/10 last year with Nash level shooting at age 22. How many hof pgs have been that good so soon. Off the top of my head I would say magic and CP3. I guess Luka. Nobody else comes to mind.

[Kblaze8855]

Well to have Played a whole career and been retired for five+ years to be in the Hall of Fame? You’d have to be at least what? 40? Most would obviously be older. So we are talking people who came in mid 90s and earlier when people played more college. Limits the comparison age wise. Not that you need age for that question.

There aren’t many 20/10 points in history period. Theyre probably all hall of famers if they stayed healthy. Marbury won’t make it but he might be the only example who didn’t fall off mid career.

Barring injury Tyrese is too young to not have a legendary career numbers and accolades wise. He should be an all star the next 7-8 years if healthy.

[Kblaze8855]

I checked. Michael Adams and Kevin Johnson seem to be the only 20/10 players eligible for the hall and not in. Wall will join that list in a few years. He and KJ both had their careers derailed around 26-27.

If you’re a healthy 20/10 for a while you’re going to the hall of fame. Trae Young is probably going isn’t he? I feel like he’s gonna get more love when the accolades pile up in the end. Weird he’s only a 2 time all star though. He put up 30/9 his second season.

[tontoz]

Well to have Played a whole career and been retired for five+ years to be in the Hall of Fame? You’d have to be at least what? 40? Most would obviously be older. So we are talking people who came in mid 90s and earlier when people played more college. Limits the comparison age wise. Not that you need age for that question.

There aren’t many 20/10 points in history period. Theyre probably all hall of famers if they stayed healthy. Marbury won’t make it but he might be the only example who didn’t fall off mid career.

Barring injury Tyrese is too young to not have a legendary career numbers and accolades wise. He should be an all star the next 7-8 years if healthy.


CP3 is still playing but everyone knows he will be HOF on the first ballot. Russ probably will too. Nice try at misdirection to try to avoid the question.

It isn't just about averaging 20/10 at 22. It is also about shooting well and keeping turnovers down.

I'll just assume you are conceding that you can't think of another pg that was this good so young.

[Kblaze8855]

Misdirection? Conceding? What are you even talking about right now? Do you think we’re arguing about something?

Do you know how to just have a conversation? I’m not even sure what we are supposed to be disagreeing about right now.

You asked the kind of question that gets my wheels turning. I was sitting here trying to remember every 2010 point in history, wondering who I forgot. I was thinking Marbury would ruin my theory, but he never got to the 10 assists. Neither did Kenny Anderson. I wasn’t even thinking this was a debate. I’m just talking.

Im not sure what it is you think I think that I need to be ducking questions out of fear of whatever you’re trying to say.

That he’s great and 22?

Is that what you think I have a problem with you saying?

[tontoz]

Misdirection? Conceding? What are you even talking about right now? Do you think we’re arguing about something?

Do you know how to just have a conversation? I’m not even sure what we are supposed to be disagreeing about right now.

You asked the kind of question that gets my wheels turning. I was sitting here trying to remember every 2010 point in history, wondering who I forgot. I was thinking Marbury would ruin my theory, but he never got to the 10 assists. Neither did Kenny Anderson. I wasn’t even thinking this was a debate. I’m just talking.

Im not sure what it is you think I think that I need to be ducking questions out of fear of whatever you’re trying to say.

That he’s great and 22?

Is that what you think I have a problem with you saying?

:facepalm

Let me simplify it for you. Forget the 20/10. Forget the HOF. How many pgs have you seen that were this good at 22?

I will go ahead and start this list with Magic and CP3.

[Kblaze8855]

Kevin Johnson was about three months older than he is now when the suns knocked the Lakers out of the playoffs and he had already been a star the year before that. I suppose it comes down to if “This good” means something like these numbers or just…this good. I assume you just mean good. I’d have to check the ages on a bunch of people who were great out the gate. People like Isiah who was probably at his statistical peak early 20s. Guys like Tiny. Oscar. Trae is young now and he had that ecf run 3 years ago or so. But I’m not sure you consider him good with the usual shooting percentage way you look at things which we don’t need to rehash.

You consider Jason Kidd great or do you disqualify him for the percentages? If so…he was never this good. If not…I guess he’s a candidate.

Obviously your point is there aren’t many but I don’t think anyone disputes that.

[NBAGOAT]

you can just go in between. you dont call him goat pg but you dont completely disregard the numbers. Outside the box score numbers he's leading the best offense in league with no costars(buddy hield is their 2nd best offensive player, myles 2nd overall) and by epm he's the 2nd best offensive player in the league easily after jokic. There's a big chasm between jokic, him and everyone else like luka, steph, embiid, booker, shai etc. All those guys are putting up gaudy numbers too but haliburton has been better on offense.

yes pacers play a certain way that favors offense but we just havent seen this combination of passing and shooting since nash and haliburton's taken the shooting to another lvl. Nash wasnt easily the 2nd best 3pt shooter in the league in his prime as good as he was. Only curry has been better than haliburton this year. I'm a cp3 stan, haliburton so far is as good as prime cp3 if not better on offense, it's only because of defense that I take cp3. the list of pgs i would consider taking on offense over him all time is likely less than 5. Like list ends after magic, steph, oscar, nash

[tontoz]

Kevin Johnson was about three months older than he is now when the suns knocked the Lakers out of the playoffs and he had already been a star the year before that. I suppose it comes down to if “This good” means something like these numbers or just…this good. I assume you just mean good. I’d have to check the ages on a bunch of people who were great out the gate. People like Isiah who was probably at his statistical peak early 20s. Guys like Tiny. Oscar. Trae is young now and he had that ecf run 3 years ago or so. But I’m not sure you consider him good with the usual shooting percentage way you look at things which we don’t need to rehash.

Obviously your point is there aren’t many but I don’t think anyone disputes that.


I think you are missing what Haliburton has been doing. His assist/ turnover ratio is CP3 level and his shooting is Nash level at age 22 . Guys like KJ and Trae have never done either at that level.

Look at tonights game. Against a strong defense he has 11 assists and no turnovers.

[tontoz]

you can just go in between. you dont call him goat pg but you dont completely disregard the numbers. Outside the box score numbers he's leading the best offense in league with no costars(buddy hield is their 2nd best offensive player, myles 2nd overall) and by epm he's the 2nd best offensive player in the league easily after jokic. There's a big chasm between jokic, him and everyone else like luka, steph, embiid, booker, shai etc. All those guys are putting up gaudy numbers too but haliburton has been better on offense.

yes pacers play a certain way that favors offense but we just havent seen this combination of passing and shooting since nash and haliburton's taken the shooting to another lvl. Nash wasnt easily the 2nd best 3pt shooter in the league in his prime as good as he was. Only curry has been better than haliburton this year. I'm a cp3 stan, haliburton so far is as good as prime cp3 if not better on offense, it's only because of defense that I take cp3. the list of pgs i would consider taking on offense over him all time is likely less than 5. Like list ends after magic, steph, oscar, nash


Exactly. This isn't a case of empty stats.

[Kblaze8855]

I think you are missing what Haliburton has been doing. His assist/ turnover ratio is CP3 level and his shooting is Nash level at age 22 . Guys like KJ and Trae have never done either at that level.

Look at tonights game. Against a strong defense he has 11 assists and no turnovers.

As I said that’s an issue of “This good” or “These numbers”. Magic never had this assist to turnover ratio I assume and certainly didn’t shoot threes like this though he had some good percentage seasons. But you listed him as one of the guys who was this good. So I’m not sure what criteria you’re using.

Generally understood greatness? That works for me. We don’t have to set minimums for it. But it makes it hard to figure out who counts. We can just agree there aren’t many.

[RRR3]

you can just go in between. you dont call him goat pg but you dont completely disregard the numbers. Outside the box score numbers he's leading the best offense in league with no costars(buddy hield is their 2nd best offensive player, myles 2nd overall) and by epm he's the 2nd best offensive player in the league easily after jokic. There's a big chasm between jokic, him and everyone else like luka, steph, embiid, booker, shai etc. All those guys are putting up gaudy numbers too but haliburton has been better on offense.

yes pacers play a certain way that favors offense but we just havent seen this combination of passing and shooting since nash and haliburton's taken the shooting to another lvl. Nash wasnt easily the 2nd best 3pt shooter in the league in his prime as good as he was. Only curry has been better than haliburton this year. I'm a cp3 stan, haliburton so far is as good as prime cp3 if not better on offense, it's only because of defense that I take cp3. the list of pgs i would consider taking on offense over him all time is likely less than 5. Like list ends after magic, steph, oscar, nash
And he's still improving!

[NBAGOAT]

As I said that’s an issue of “This good” or “These numbers”. Magic never had this assist to turnover ratio I assume and certainly didn’t shoot threes like this though he had some good percentage seasons. But you listed him as one of the guys who was this good. So I’m not sure what criteria you’re using.

Generally understood greatness? That works for me. We don’t have to set minimums for it. But it makes it hard to figure out who counts. We can just agree there aren’t many.

impact on winning is a simple one. doesnt matter what the era is, net rtg and wins/losses are the same every year. haliburton is playing at a top 10 lvl right now even with poor defense

[RRR3]

impact on winning is a simple one. doesnt matter what the era is, net rtg and wins/losses are the same every year. haliburton is playing at a top 10 lvl right now even with poor defense
Where are you seeing this gap between him and Jokic and everyone else? I see a bunch of guys close to them in EPM.

[NBAGOAT]

Where are you seeing this gap between him and Jokic and everyone else? I see a bunch of guys close to them in EPM.

oh i meant just on offense. Overall yea jokic and a few other guys are ahead

[Xiao Yao You]

Well to have Played a whole career and been retired for five+ years to be in the Hall of Fame? You’d have to be at least what? 40? Most would obviously be older. So we are talking people who came in mid 90s and earlier when people played more college. Limits the comparison age wise. Not that you need age for that question.

There aren’t many 20/10 points in history period. Theyre probably all hall of famers if they stayed healthy. Marbury won’t make it but he might be the only example who didn’t fall off mid career.

Barring injury Tyrese is too young to not have a legendary career numbers and accolades wise. He should be an all star the next 7-8 years if healthy.

Marbury has CBA titles. Might get him in!

[tontoz]

As I said that’s an issue of “This good” or “These numbers”. Magic never had this assist to turnover ratio I assume and certainly didn’t shoot threes like this though he had some good percentage seasons. But you listed him as one of the guys who was this good. So I’m not sure what criteria you’re using.

Generally understood greatness? That works for me. We don’t have to set minimums for it. But it makes it hard to figure out who counts. We can just agree there aren’t many.


Magic scored with high efficiency even without 3s, frequently led the league in assists and was also a good rebounder.

One thing that hasn't been brought up is that Tyrese is 6'5". That height is a big advantage on both ends. Size was a big part of Magics greatness,.no pun intended. Tyrese can see and pass over the defense more easily than most pgs and can't be taken advantage of on the other end like Trae. Trae is a mismatch on D against almost anyone.

[Xiao Yao You]

Justin Kubatko: Tyrese Haliburton last night: ✅ 26 PTS ✅ 10 REB ✅ 13 AST ✅ 0 TOV It’s his third 25p/10a game with zero turnovers this season. No player has recorded more such games in a season since the NBA began tracking individual turnovers in 1977-78 (https://*********.com/social/).

– via Twitter jkubatko (https://twitter.com/jkubatko)




not even Michael Adams?

[tontoz]

Great breakdown of the pacers vs Celtics. He really highlights how good Haliburton is and also points out Tatums shortcomings in crunch time.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/0ChYjZaVxE3G6Aj1ToDqMt?si=UbZwEH1rT8a5bBMklPBNAw