I think I would rather have prime Noah or Bucks Brook Lopez than Ben Wallace.

[Kblaze8855]

To play in 2023? I think…think….id take both with no more information on who would be on the team.

But I don’t think it with very much conviction. I am willing to reconsider my position.

[FKAri]

Whoever taught Noah to shoot cost him millions in career earnings.

[FultzNationRISE]

In 2023? It's not even close.

I personally find Wallace a little overrated even in his own era. Some guys get lucky to be in the perfect situation, and the team's success lifts their reputation a little higher than what it otherwise would be. When he went to the Bulls he was absolute ass who made no impact. Same with Perkins when he left Boston.

When you play on a stacked defensive team, you can get away with just protecting the rim and not having to contribute anything else. If you dont play on a team that collectively keeps opponents from scoring a lot, youve gotta bring some offense. Guys like Perkins and Wallace were in the perfect situation to do the one thing they do, and I dont think it's coincidence they couldnt replicate it on other teams. Ben seems to have this reputation of singlehandedly making the Pistons defense what it was. To me that's a bit overblown, even though he obviously was a great defensive big.

[Im Still Ballin]

Y'all remember when Chicago started running the offense through Noah in 2013-14? Got him some MVP votes. A very unusual player.

[Im Still Ballin]

Some extra context regarding the 2014 season:

- Started the season 12-18
- The offense was guard-centric
- Noah became more of a focal point on offense/ran through him
- Finished the season 36-15 (58 win-pace)
- Team offensive rating jumped +5 points
- Averaged 13.6 ppg, 11.9 rpg, 6.5 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.7 bpg on 2.7 topg (54.05% TS)


I will agree though that peak Noah deserves his respect for what he accomplished that season on 2013-14. That season's Bulls team was traaaaaaash. Look at this roster: https://www.basketball-reference.com.../CHI/2014.html

I would nearly equate it to Draymond having to play with no Curry and no Klay, since Deng and Rose were out. It started terribly, with the Bulls sitting at 12-18 30 games into the season. Thibs was basically still trying to run his Rose-centric offense with replacement parts, and it sucked.

At that point, Thibs basically said "This is Noah's team", and changed the whole scheme to run through him.

Noah's Bulls from there forward went 36-16, their offensive rating improved by almost 5 points, their defense stayed league-leading, and Noah averaged 13.5/12/7 the rest of the way, with 8 games of 10+ assists. Top of the league in most advanced stats, rightfully won the DPOY, first team all-NBA, all-star, and earned himself those MVP votes (4th place).

So if you wanted to say "I think Noah 2013-14 season was better individually than any of Dray's seasons", I wouldn't argue with that. Noah proved he was a floor-raiser and competitor even with his stars out, something Dray did not do when given the chance in 2019-20 in a similar situation.

However, this does also ignore the coaching and front office, with Thibs/Bulls pushing to win and Kerr/Warriors embracing the tank.

And no matter what, I'm pretty sure winning ANOTHER championship with everyone healthy this past year kind of absolves the shitty 19-20 season. Dray has nothing to prove to anyone at this point.

[Im Still Ballin]

Continued:


After starting 15 different lineups in the first 33 games of the season, they've only started four in the 45 games since. The starting five of Kirk Hinrich, Jimmy Butler, Mike Dunleavy, Carlos Boozer and Noah have now started 21 consecutive games. That's the longest run of the same starting five in the Thibodeau era.

Health is a big part, but it also has a lot to do with Noah's expanding skills. Thibodeau redesigned the offense to go through Noah from the elbow, and his remarkable passing ability for a big man was put on full display.

Noah has six 11-assist games since Feb 6, a 30-game stretch. All other NBA centers combined have only 27 such games in the last 30 years.

And, in the more important aspect of winning, the Bulls have turned around in the re-imagined offense. Since the Luol Deng trade, they are 32-14, the best record in the Eastern Conference. The only team in the NBA with more wins in that span is the San Antonio Spurs.

Noah also took over the transition game, which is better explained by this fantastic compilation, courtesy of Sports Illustrated’s Rob Mahoney, than by words alone.

The Bulls have had the best defense in the NBA over that span. And while their offense is still only the 25th most efficient, it’s notching 5.5 more points per 100 possessions since being run through Noah. And, both the offense and the defense are close to two points per 100 possessions better when Noah’s on the court.

Noah has established himself as something no one thought he could be—a player who can carry a contender. The winning speaks for itself. As a result, he’s not only emerged as a top-five candidate for MVP, he’s made “point center” a term in the process.

Here’s perhaps the most remarkable summation of Noah’s achievement this year: He has 956 points, 398 assists and 849 rebounds. In the history of the NBA, the only other centers to do that are Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Russell. That’s what we in basketball circles refer to as "elite company."

[Carbine]

How quickly you forget, Kblaze888555

[Im Still Ballin]

Here's an interesting question: would Sacramento be a better team with Peak 2014 point-center Joakim Noah over Domantas Sabonis?

[Xiao Yao You]

good coaching. Most coaches try to do things one way regardless of the roster

[jayfan]

Prime Noah is a very underrated, if not forgotten, player.


.

[FilmyCogTurner]

Noah played the Draymond role in 2014 from the center position, it was actually a lot of fun to watch him set up the offense from a high post position.

[L.Kizzle]

In 2023? It's not even close.

I personally find Wallace a little overrated even in his own era. Some guys get lucky to be in the perfect situation, and the team's success lifts their reputation a little higher than what it otherwise would be. When he went to the Bulls he was absolute ass who made no impact. Same with Perkins when he left Boston.

When you play on a stacked defensive team, you can get away with just protecting the rim and not having to contribute anything else. If you dont play on a team that collectively keeps opponents from scoring a lot, youve gotta bring some offense. Guys like Perkins and Wallace were in the perfect situation to do the one thing they do, and I dont think it's coincidence they couldnt replicate it on other teams. Ben seems to have this reputation of singlehandedly making the Pistons defense what it was. To me that's a bit overblown, even though he obviously was a great defensive big.

You're severely underrating Ben Wallace. 2 seasons before that core group got to Detroit, he led the league in blocks and boards.
They didn't make Ben. No Rip, Billups, Sheedy in 2001. They had Stackhouse tho.

[Im Still Ballin]

Noah played the Draymond role in 2014 from the center position, it was actually a lot of fun to watch him set up the offense from a high post position.

He would look real nice in a Sacramento Kings type of offense where he's being used as a high-volume dribble hand-off hub. All that modern space from shooters? He'd do 15/12/7 on like 53-55% FG and 57-60% TS with DPOY-level defense.