Playing for a longer time period - is that all Lebron has on MJ?

[3ba11]

.
Isn't it statistical fact and consensus that Jordan has a better record at everything else like:



* winning
* dominance
* individual offense
* individual defense
* team offense
* team defense
* chemistry/fits
* teammate development
* clutch
* fear factor
* toughness
* 6/6 with 1 all-star vs 2/4 with multiple all-stars
* burden (6 titles while leading NBA in usage and carrying the usage load on his team)
* winning without multiple all-star teammates or "1b" teammates that have equal production
* not teaming up with opposing franchise players (organic team growth through ups and downs)



doesn't that make it a fake debate?.. sure it's cool that a 39 year-old still plays at a prime Larry Johnson level but isn't having a goat debate over it a little overboard?.. :confusedshrug:

[Kblaze8855]

You have been writing tomes to rival Tolkien(or me in the passenger seat on a road trip) on the subject since he was like 32 at the oldest so obviously longevity isn’t the source of it.

[FKAri]

It's all Magic has on Bird too. And Malone has on Barkley.

[Wally450]

LeBron played against better teams.

[3ba11]

You have been writing tomes to rival Tolkien(or me in the passenger seat on a road trip) on the subject since he was like 32 at the oldest so obviously longevity isn’t the source of it.


I was asking the same question back then about what Lebron had on Jordan because he didn't even have longevity back then

at least now he has longevity, but again, what else?

I haven't received a legitimate answer since I started posting

[ShawkFactory]

My god. How are you not bored of this yet.

[SouBeachTalents]

You have been writing tomes to rival Tolkien(or me in the passenger seat on a road trip) on the subject since he was like 32 at the oldest so obviously longevity isn’t the source of it.
He's been at this shit for a decade now, LeBron was still in his 20's when he started this crusade :lol

[Phoenix]

My god. How are you not bored of this yet.

It's a mental sickness, and ISH gives him the platform. Basically akin to giving someone with diabetes the keys to a bakery.

[tontoz]

OP seriously needs a.checkup from the neck up.



https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/g195/tontoz/Inside%20Hoops/.highres/840937-Beatingadeadhorse.gif

[3ba11]

LeBron played against better teams.


Due to evenly-spread talent (parity), 1 or 2 stars were enough to make the Finals in the 90's.. So there were MANY finals-caliber teams, which is a harder path than being 1 of 2 Finals-caliber teams (1 of 2 super-teams) in a top-heavy league (no parity).

So Lebron had the much easier path by literally forming 1 of the league's super-teams... He literally took 2 franchise players from conference rivals and put them on his team - he diluted the conference and consolidated power on 1 team.. It's called stacking the deck and there's no easier path..

Overall, Lebron had 5 seasons with 2 all-star teammates (0 for Jordan) and also a 34 to 9 advantage in top 5 lottery pick teammates... Lebron had the preseason favorite (on-paper favorite) from 2011-2016, but fell to underdog or loser every year except the Allen miracle - so it's a documented fact that Lebron-ball underperforms favored talent every year.

[3ba11]

It's all Magic has on Bird too. And Malone has on Barkley.


Who cares because the media has shut out those guys from the GOAT debate in favor or a low brand of ball player that isn't capable of having a winning Finals record regardless of cast (20-21 in the Finals if we exclude 07', 15', 18').. Let that sink in - no matter who we put around Lebron, his brand of ball cannot have a winning Finals record in the long run (20-21 with super-teams)...

it turns out that if you turn a big man like say Duncan into a weak-shooting, turnover-prone ball-dominator, the Spurs would go from dynasty and 5/6 in the Finals to garbage, needy teams that lose in the Finals.

[sdot_thadon]

If your original post actually represented reality? Sure, but it doesn't. You just seem to live in some rot brain hell from eating spoiled Wheaties with Gatorade for 30 years. Nobody else sees the spots on the wall, only you do.

[3ba11]

If your original post actually represented reality? Sure, but it doesn't. You just seem to live in some rot brain hell from eating spoiled Wheaties with Gatorade for 30 years. Nobody else sees the spots on the wall, only you do.


Every bullet point from the OP is statistical fact (in parenthesis below):


* winning (6/6 and he once he got a single all-star, he never lost 3 straight games for 9 years - 1990-1998)

* dominance (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP)

* individual offense (see previous)

* individual defense (lebron wasn't all-defense for his entire 30's and no dpoy)

* team offense (mj had four #1 offenses with goat margins above league average vs zero #1 offenses for Lebron in 21 years)

* team defense (AD lifted the Lakers' defense from last to 1st)

* chemistry (only Lebron has a long list of bad fits and teammates playing below capacity alongside him like Hughes, Jamison, Wade, Bosh, Love, IT, Ingram, Kuzma, Westbrook)

* young player development (no player went from single-digit producer to meaningful producer on Lebron's watch - he reduces teammates to spot-up roles, aka he reduces teammate APG and increases their assisted rate)

* clutch (jordan shoots 50% on game-winners vs 30% for Lebron, while Jordan's clutch stats are far superior (last 5 within 5)

* toughness (MJ played 9 seasons of 82 games and never had reputation for being flopper like Lebron has - players say they feared Jordan, while players specifically go out of their way to say lebron ISN'T feared)

* burden (the only player in history to win a title while leading league in usage - he did it 5 times - and no player has a greater record of having massive margins over all teammates in PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP,, PPG or usage, aka carrying load, aka facing max defensive attention/carrying scoring load)

* Lebron went 1/4 with AD, Love or Wade (except Allen miracle), so he can't 3-peat regardless of who you put around him




^^^ it's all statistical fact and historical record - these are actual events in time

[Wardell Curry]

How do you not get bored of the trolling? Do you play multiple personalities on the board or something? Are you practicing to be an actor?

[3ba11]

How do you not get bored of the trolling? Do you play multiple personalities on the board or something? Are you practicing to be an actor?


How is it trolling to post the historical record?

Am I trolling when I say that Lebron hasn't had a #1 offense in 21 years and had bad fits with many guys like Hughes, Jamison, Love, Bosh, Ingram, Westbrook and more?.. This stuff is common knowledge.

Am I trolling to say that MJ went 6/6 with 1 all-star while Lebron went 2/4 with multiple all-stars in Miami, or 1/4 in Cleveland, or 1/4 in LA - so history shows that he can't 3-peat regardless of who you put around him, aka objectively inferior to MJ

How is it trolling to state facts like this?

[Wardell Curry]

How is it trolling to post the historical record?

Am I trolling when I say that Lebron hasn't had a #1 offense in 21 years and had bad fits with many guys like Hughes, Jamison, Love, Bosh, Ingram, Westbrook and more?.. This stuff is common knowledge.

Am I trolling to say that MJ went 6/6 with 1 all-star while Lebron went 2/4 with multiple all-stars in Miami, or 1/4 in Cleveland, or 1/4 in LA - so history shows that he can't 3-peat regardless of who you put around him, aka objectively inferior to MJ

How is it trolling to state facts like this?

You could make the case that it's not trolling the first time you make the argument / state the facts / whatever. Maybe even the fourth or fifth time. But when you're on the 2387th time, you are either mentally ill or acting. I choose to believe acting.

[8Ball]

.
Isn't it statistical fact and consensus that Jordan has a better record at everything else like:



* winning
* dominance
* individual offense
* individual defense
* team offense
* team defense
* chemistry/fits
* teammate development
* clutch
* fear factor
* toughness
* 6/6 with 1 all-star vs 2/4 with multiple all-stars
* burden (6 titles while leading NBA in usage and carrying the usage load on his team)
* winning without multiple all-star teammates or "1b" teammates that have equal production
* not teaming up with opposing franchise players (organic team growth through ups and downs)



doesn't that make it a fake debate?.. sure it's cool that a 39 year-old still plays at a prime Larry Johnson level but isn't having a goat debate over it a little overboard?.. :confusedshrug:


10 years ago 3ball said:

https://i.ibb.co/d7PzzJ0/Screenshot-2023-12-06-at-2-00-08-PM.png



Ouch.

[8Ball]

You have been writing tomes to rival Tolkien(or me in the passenger seat on a road trip) on the subject since he was like 32 at the oldest so obviously longevity isn’t the source of it.

3ball started writing tomes on the subject 10 years ago, when LeBron was 28 as per my prior post. :lol

[Phoenix]

I'm gonna assume the OP gets more attention from this board than any other source in his life. Have fun peeps...

https://media1.tenor.com/m/IeSvLs07zsAAAAAC/ice-age-possum.gif

[NBAGOAT]

How is it trolling to post the historical record?

Am I trolling when I say that Lebron hasn't had a #1 offense in 21 years and had bad fits with many guys like Hughes, Jamison, Love, Bosh, Ingram, Westbrook and more?.. This stuff is common knowledge.

Am I trolling to say that MJ went 6/6 with 1 all-star while Lebron went 2/4 with multiple all-stars in Miami, or 1/4 in Cleveland, or 1/4 in LA - so history shows that he can't 3-peat regardless of who you put around him, aka objectively inferior to MJ

How is it trolling to state facts like this?

it's trolling when you say 1 all star for pippen when he has multiple appearances. First he's better than just an all star, he's factually all-nba lvl, many all stars are not. second, an intellectually honest person would at least add up total all star appearances of teammates

[Xiao Yao You]

https://sports.yahoo.com/god-disguised-michael-jordan-not-110003560.html


His Airness delivered a phenomenal performance, scoring a record-setting 63 points in a double-overtime game. The Celtics, with five future Hall of Famers, including Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Bill Walton and Robert Parish, faced an inspired Jordan who played so well that Bird would say he saw “God disguised as Michael Jordan” on the court.



never forget it!

[AussieSteve]

Due to evenly-spread talent (parity), 1 or 2 stars were enough to make the Finals in the 90's.. So there were MANY finals-caliber teams, which is a harder path than being 1 of 2 Finals-caliber teams (1 of 2 super-teams) in a top-heavy league (no parity).



But there wasn't parity in the 90s. MJ was the only guy with an MVP callibre side kick. The Bulls were the only team with 2 superstars.

Outside the Bulls, how many players do you think made All NBA and All D 1st teams in the same season at any point in the 90s?

The answer is 5. Across the entire NBA. Across the whole decade.

Pippen did it 3 times. If you're not willing to accept that this makes him not just the best 2nd option in the 90s, but better in fact than most franchise players and clearly one of the best players of the decade, your not objective.

Heck, only 16 other players have done that all time. All of them known as one of the very best players of their era. Why not acknowledge Pippen the same way?

[Xiao Yao You]

But there wasn't parity in the 90s. MJ was the only guy with an MVP callibre side kick. The Bulls were the only team with 2 superstars.

Outside the Bulls, how many players do you think made All NBA and All D 1st teams in the same season at any point in the 90s?

The answer is 5. Across the entire NBA. Across the whole decade.

Pippen did it 3 times. If you're not willing to accept that this makes him not just the best 2nd option in the 90s, but better in fact than most franchise players and clearly one of the best players of the decade, your not objective.

Heck, only 16 other players have done that all time. All of them known as one of the very best players of their era. Why not acknowledge Pippen the same way?

I certainly never thought that highly of Pippen.

[Phoenix]

But there wasn't parity in the 90s. MJ was the only guy with an MVP callibre side kick. The Bulls were the only team with 2 superstars.

Outside the Bulls, how many players do you think made All NBA and All D 1st teams in the same season at any point in the 90s?

The answer is 5. Across the entire NBA. Across the whole decade.

Pippen did it 3 times. If you're not willing to accept that this makes him not just the best 2nd option in the 90s, but better in fact than most franchise players and clearly one of the best players of the decade, your not objective.

Heck, only 16 other players have done that all time. All of them known as one of the very best players of their era. Why not acknowledge Pippen the same way?

Because his premise is that winning/playing next to MJ is the only reason he's held in high regard ( he calls it the winning spotlight). Meanwhile you got guys like Tony Parker and Klay Thompson who each won 4 rings and were multiple time all-stars/all-nba guys but weren't even given top 75 spots 2 years ago, despite playing next to two top 10 level talents in Duncan and Steph.

[SouBeachTalents]

Because his premise is that winning/playing next to MJ is the only reason he's held in high regard ( he calls it the winning spotlight). Meanwhile you got guys like Tony Parker and Klay Thompson who each won 4 rings and were multiple time all-stars/all-nba guys but weren't even given top 75 spots 2 years ago, despite playing next to two top 10 level talents in Duncan and Steph.
Let's not forget Isiah missing the All-NBA Team despite winning b2b titles and nearly winning a 3rd. Lotta good that "winning spotlight" did there :lol

[Phoenix]

Let's not forget Isiah missing the All-NBA Team despite winning b2b titles and nearly winning a 3rd. Lotta good that "winning spotlight" did there :lol

For that matter, his backcourt mate Joe Dumars. Had two titles by 1990. Finals MVP. Multiple all-NBA/all-star/all-defense. Top 50? Nope. 75? Is this thing on?

[ILLsmak]

You have been writing tomes to rival Tolkien(or me in the passenger seat on a road trip) on the subject since he was like 32 at the oldest so obviously longevity isn’t the source of it.

same topics, too.

-Smak

[bullettooth]

Ship sailed in 2011. You've been beating a dead horse for 12 years.

[SATAN]

I certainly never thought that highly of Pippen.

You stan Gobert. :oldlol:

[Xiao Yao You]

You stan Gobert. :oldlol:

he's finally playing getting to play with his MJ on the top team in the league :cheers:

[Full Court]

Yes, OP. That's literally the only thing Lebron has on MJ - more total playing time. You can't even really say Lebron has better longevity, because Jordan was the best player in the league for a longer time period than Lebron was, not to mention that 38-year old Jordan was better than 38-year old Lebron.

[ELITEpower23]

It's a mental sickness, and ISH gives him the platform. Basically akin to giving someone with diabetes the keys to a bakery.

:lol +1

[red1]

1-9



ringless without pippen :yaohappy:

[Full Court]

1-9



ringless without pippen :yaohappy:

Still way less help than LeShrivel had for every one of his rings.

Deal with it.

:lebroncry:

[1987_Lakers]

10 years ago, 3ball himself said longevity would be the deciding factor

https://i.ibb.co/d7PzzJ0/Screenshot-2023-12-06-at-2-00-08-PM.png

It's over.

[SouBeachTalents]

10 years ago, 3ball himself said longevity would be the deciding factor

https://i.ibb.co/d7PzzJ0/Screenshot-2023-12-06-at-2-00-08-PM.png

It's over.
https://media.tenor.com/xA8BVpRh_jIAAAAC/shocked-michael-jordan.gif

[8Ball]

10 years ago, 3ball himself said longevity would be the deciding factor

https://i.ibb.co/d7PzzJ0/Screenshot-2023-12-06-at-2-00-08-PM.png

It's over.

10 years ago 3ball: Length of peak becomes the deciding factor.

3ball today: LoNgEvItY dOeSt'T mAtTeR

It's over.

[red1]

10 years ago, 3ball himself said longevity would be the deciding factor

https://i.ibb.co/d7PzzJ0/Screenshot-2023-12-06-at-2-00-08-PM.png

It's over.
RIP 3ball

plus Steve Kerr's opinion>>>> the virgin fakkits that post here :oldlol:

[Axe]

10 years ago, 3ball himself said longevity would be the deciding factor

https://i.ibb.co/d7PzzJ0/Screenshot-2023-12-06-at-2-00-08-PM.png

It's over.
Ether. Only a braindead casual would disagree.

[Full Court]

Ether. Only a braindead casual would disagree.

Only a low IQ stinky biatch makes 32,000+ retarded posts. :lol

[Full Court]

https://media.tenor.com/xA8BVpRh_jIAAAAC/shocked-michael-jordan.gif

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi304.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fnn 200%2FnbacardDOTnet%2Fzz%2520NBA%2520Photo%2520Gal lery%2Fz%2520Funny%2520NBA%2520Photos%2FOthers%252 0Masterpiece%2F0%2520queen%2520lebron%2520james%2F jordan-lebron-airball-miss.gif&f=1&nofb=1

[Axe]

^^Lmfao guilty af. :oldlol:

Also, dumbest redneck poster gets butthurt and bloody again by a mere post count. Not surprised.

[sdot_thadon]

10 years ago 3ball said:

https://i.ibb.co/d7PzzJ0/Screenshot-2023-12-06-at-2-00-08-PM.png



Ouch.

.It all makes sense, Op is neck deep in an existential crisis. His terms for defeat arrived a few years back and he's struggling with the reality of it. Rat. Poison.

[Full Court]

^^Lmfao guilty af. :oldlol:

Also, dumbest redneck poster gets butthurt and bloody again by a mere post count. Not surprised.

When you smell a putrid odor

And your nose begins to twitch

The reason is 'cause dopey Axe

Is such a stinky bitch



:lol :confusedshrug:

[8Ball]

10 years ago, 3ball himself said longevity would be the deciding factor

https://i.ibb.co/d7PzzJ0/Screenshot-2023-12-06-at-2-00-08-PM.png

It's over.



Any other Jordan tard wants to help carry 3ball's water?

[Hey Yo]

Ship sailed in 2011. You've been beating a dead horse for 12 years.

MJ's legacy stopped in the fall of 93 when he quit the league cause he was no longer able to play. He needed the rest and decided quit the league.

21 consecutive years >>>> 7 consecutive.

[Full Court]

MJ's legacy stopped in the fall of 93 when he quit the league cause he was no longer able to play. He needed the rest and decided quit the league.

21 consecutive years >>>> 7 consecutive.

Ship sailed in 2011. Deal with it.

:lebroncry:

[sdot_thadon]

Ship sailed in 2011. Deal with it.

:lebroncry:

It's crazy how many Mj stans feel like 2011 was the end for Lebron, it actually was the beginning that propelled him to where he sits currently. Without 2011 I don't think he develops as serious a goat case as he did following it.

[tpols]

You could make the case that it's not trolling the first time you make the argument / state the facts / whatever. Maybe even the fourth or fifth time. But when you're on the 2387th time, you are either mentally ill or acting. I choose to believe acting.


I think the reason he does it is because a lot of people are still refuting the points when it's obvious MJ was signifigantly better at basketball than Lebron.

It's like comparing David Robinson to Hakeem. Robinson was still a great player but everybody knows Hakeem would smash him H2H because he was more skilled and more ruthlessly competitive.

If you guys just accepted it, he would stop.

[ShawkFactory]

I think the reason he does it is because a lot of people are still refuting the points when it's obvious MJ was signifigantly better at basketball than Lebron.

It's like comparing David Robinson to Hakeem. Robinson was still a great player but everybody knows Hakeem would smash him H2H because he was more skilled and more ruthlessly competitive.

If you guys just accepted it, he would stop.

MJ is overwhelming listed first, including by most who have engaged 3ball in the past (myself included). Making contrived, dishonest, and repetitive points isn’t the way.

Just because the conclusion is correct doesn’t mean the reasoning is.

[dankok8]

With 3ball the issue isn't that he doesn't make good arguments. It's that he makes the same arguments a million times.

[RRR3]

With 3ball the issue isn't that he doesn't make good arguments. It's that he makes the same arguments a million times.
:facepalm

This is why people don't take you seriously

[sdot_thadon]

I think the reason he does it is because a lot of people are still refuting the points when it's obvious MJ was signifigantly better at basketball than Lebron.

It's like comparing David Robinson to Hakeem. Robinson was still a great player but everybody knows Hakeem would smash him H2H because he was more skilled and more ruthlessly competitive.

If you guys just accepted it, he would stop.
It's not really like that at all honestly. There was a guy who played in Lebron's era that supposedly was both "more skilled and more ruthlessly competitive" than Lebron and Kobe absolutely did not "Smash" Lebron head to head and is nearly universally regarded as the inferior player of the 2. Cant let your argument rely on so many subjectives. This is the exact thing that caused me to waver on whether i could have Mj as undisputed goat anymore. When you deal with all these unquantifiable narratives to prove one is better than the other, then it's also unquantifiable whether or not he's actually better.....

[dankok8]

:facepalm

This is why people don't take you seriously

Learn to read. I didn't say his arguments are good. I said the quality of his arguments isn't the issue with him.

[3ba11]

But there wasn't parity in the 90s. MJ was the only guy with an MVP callibre side kick. The Bulls were the only team with 2 superstars.

Outside the Bulls, how many players do you think made All NBA and All D 1st teams in the same season at any point in the 90s?

The answer is 5. Across the entire NBA. Across the whole decade.

Pippen did it 3 times. If you're not willing to accept that this makes him not just the best 2nd option in the 90s, but better in fact than most franchise players and clearly one of the best players of the decade, your not objective.

Heck, only 16 other players have done that all time. All of them known as one of the very best players of their era. Why not acknowledge Pippen the same way?


The winning spotlight got Pippen his accolades, while the stats confirm that he was a low-producer and the most carried sidekick of all-time BY FAR.. the stats are what they are

If AD averaged 16 on 39% for a title run (including the Finals), he would be crucified, yet Pippen is praised because Jordan won with that... so Pippen gets praised and goes along for the ride despite his poor production, worst-ever efficiency and worst-ever clutch.

The stats show that Pippen is the worst passer and scorer of any notable 90's sidekick including KJ, Tim Hardaway, Payton, Stockton and more.. So it's quite obvious that most 1st options in the 90's had all-time floor generals at sidekick that could average 10 assists, while MJ was stuck with Pippen's 5 assists, weak scoring and worst-ever efficiency..

Pippen had the lowest peak capability of any notable 90's sidekick (scoring & assists or scoring & rebs) - there's never been a sidekick with multiple titles that had crappier peak production than Pippen (not on scouting report according to Shaq) and there's never been a sidekick that was carried more statistically by their 1st option.. this is statistical fact..

Ultimately, the stats show that Pippen was a Larry Nance or Iggy-level producer that was inflated by the winning spotlight to all-time status.. He's literally the most overrated player ever.. He's a 15 ppg transition player and dunker - that's his capability outside the system and growing up alongside the GOAT

[tpols]

^

Jordan was a different animal compared to Kobe.

Kobe was a basketball psychopath. MJ was a real all life one. He relished burying people in any competitive encounter which is next level. Everybody knows MJ would've not only killed Lebron on the court from a physical skill perspective, but he would have psychologically broken him.



And btw we never saw Kobe vs Lebron in the playoffs. Lebron lost twice with HCA and 66 win teams as favorites to duck Kobe and the Lakers in the Finals. And then he joined an MVP talent Dwayne Wade to try and get over the hump while Kobe was going B2B with Pau Gasol. And then he ended up having a losing Finals record with Wade including the GOAT choke in 2011 and the biggest blowout by point differential in NBA Finals history in 2014.

So yea... as a Kobe fan I wouldn't be scared at all about facing Lebron given equal help. Lebron will put up more stats, but lower his teams ceiling and star players baseline with his AAU ball dominant approach while Kobe enhanced teammates, played in a high level system (the triangle), and would bury him in crunchtime.

[3ba11]

It's not really like that at all honestly. There was a guy who played in Lebron's era that supposedly was both "more skilled and more ruthlessly competitive" than Lebron and Kobe absolutely did not "Smash" Lebron head to head and is nearly universally regarded as the inferior player of the 2. Cant let your argument rely on so many subjectives. This is the exact thing that caused me to waver on whether i could have Mj as undisputed goat anymore. When you deal with all these unquantifiable narratives to prove one is better than the other, then it's also unquantifiable whether or not he's actually better.....


Can you show me evidence that Lebron is superior in an area besides longevity?

Because I provided evidence - it's statistical fact that Jordan has a far better record of winning, domination, clutch, individual offense, individual defense, team offense, team defense, chemistry and teammate fits, teammate development, toughness/fear factor (peer testimony), and clutch - these are all statistical facts (or confirmed by peers in the case of toughness/fear factor, although 9 seasons of 82 games also confirms it).

Otoh, you've provided zero evidence of an area that Lebron is superior in, aside from playing at a lower level for longer (longevity)

so carry on...... but it's a little embarrassing that so many people fell for this crap.. it's cringeworthy to see Klutch Sports pull this off and have an actual debate about something that's long settled.

[3ba11]

Yes, OP. That's literally the only thing Lebron has on MJ - more total playing time. You can't even really say Lebron has better longevity, because Jordan was the best player in the league for a longer time period than Lebron was, not to mention that 38-year old Jordan was better than 38-year old Lebron.


Boom

Jordan had superior longevity of PEAK - this includes being the scoring champ and 1st team defense from 88-98' (MVP in 88' and 98') - that's the best and longest peak ever.

[tpols]

If AD averaged 16 on 39% for a title run (including the Finals), he would be crucified,


This is big time facts.

Lebron fans were complaining about AD averaging 27/12 while being the best defensive player on either team when they lost to Denver last year.

Can you IMAGINE what they'd be saying if he put up 16 on 30 something % shooting?

:roll:

[ShawkFactory]

This is big time facts.

Lebron fans were complaining about AD averaging 27/12 while being the best defensive player on either team when they lost to Denver last year.

Can you IMAGINE what they'd be saying if he put up 16 on 30 something % shooting?

:roll:

Idk. Wade put up 16 on 45% in the 2013 run. Yet you blanket him as an MVP talent to bring Lebron down. That’s the thing with the dishonesty.

If you made the argument that MJ was better and that you would absolutely trust him more in crunch time you would get absolutely no argument from me.

It’s when people twist shit as justification where I take issue.

[Duffy Pratt]

Can you show me evidence that Lebron is superior in an area besides longevity?

Because I provided evidence - it's statistical fact that Jordan has a far better record of winning, domination, clutch, individual offense, individual defense, team offense, team defense, chemistry and teammate fits, teammate development, toughness/fear factor (peer testimony), and clutch - these are all statistical facts (or confirmed by peers in the case of toughness/fear factor, although 9 seasons of 82 games also confirms it).

Otoh, you've provided zero evidence of an area that Lebron is superior in, aside from playing at a lower level for longer (longevity)

so carry on...... but it's a little embarrassing that so many people fell for this crap.. it's cringeworthy to see Klutch Sports pull this off and have an actual debate about something that's long settled.

You can’t have a “fact” statistical or otherwise which shows that an individual is better at team offense or team defense. They are not individual categories. Also, there is no chemistry stat, since chemistry is again a question of team composition, and does not belong to an individual. And the opinions of peers is just that, opinion, not fact.

[StrongLurk]

All I know is Lebron stomps Kobe on an individual level and team level (went 16-6 against Kobe without even going 100%).

[Axe]

It's crazy how many Mj stans feel like 2011 was the end for Lebron, it actually was the beginning that propelled him to where he sits currently. Without 2011 I don't think he develops as serious a goat case as he did following it.
True. Imagine actively crusading against him on a daily basis and keep on whining that he's not the goat. It doesn't make any sense at all to do that if he's never really been that great. So much for being a homosexual narcissist. :facepalm (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTgJlaYykOeriV0g-CmztDbyLIB7OzQHuDISg&usqp=CAU)

[sdot_thadon]

^

Jordan was a different animal compared to Kobe.

Kobe was a basketball psychopath. MJ was a real all life one. He relished burying people in any competitive encounter which is next level. Everybody knows MJ would've not only killed Lebron on the court from a physical skill perspective, but he would have psychologically broken him.



And btw we never saw Kobe vs Lebron in the playoffs. Lebron lost twice with HCA and 66 win teams as favorites to duck Kobe and the Lakers in the Finals. And then he joined an MVP talent Dwayne Wade to try and get over the hump while Kobe was going B2B with Pau Gasol. And then he ended up having a losing Finals record with Wade including the GOAT choke in 2011 and the biggest blowout by point differential in NBA Finals history in 2014.

So yea... as a Kobe fan I wouldn't be scared at all about facing Lebron given equal help. Lebron will put up more stats, but lower his teams ceiling and star players baseline with his AAU ball dominant approach while Kobe enhanced teammates, played in a high level system (the triangle), and would bury him in crunchtime.

Um yeah, we're all in reality knowing Lebron got the better of Kobe head to head despite all the scowling and posturing. Also it's probably better for Kobe that they never met in the finals, seeing that Lebron is on an entirely different level in the playoffs from Kobe. And I'd imagine had he made it with the Cavs we never get a confused 2011 finals, his role was clear and there was no toes to avoid stepping on in Cleveland. He'd have annihilated Kobe, just my opinion though.

[Duffy Pratt]

Can you show me evidence that Lebron is superior in an area besides longevity?

Because I provided evidence - it's statistical fact that Jordan has a far better record of winning, domination, clutch, individual offense, individual defense, team offense, team defense, chemistry and teammate fits, teammate development, toughness/fear factor (peer testimony), and clutch - these are all statistical facts (or confirmed by peers in the case of toughness/fear factor, although 9 seasons of 82 games also confirms it).

Otoh, you've provided zero evidence of an area that Lebron is superior in, aside from playing at a lower level for longer (longevity)

so carry on...... but it's a little embarrassing that so many people fell for this crap.. it's cringeworthy to see Klutch Sports pull this off and have an actual debate about something that's long settled.

You can’t have a “fact” statistical or otherwise which shows that an individual is better at team offense or team defense. They are not individual categories. Also, there is no chemistry stat, since chemistry is again a question of team composition, and does not belong to an individual. And the opinions of peers is just that, opinion, not fact.

[SATAN]

^

Jordan was a different animal compared to Kobe.

Kobe was a basketball psychopath. MJ was a real all life one. He relished burying people in any competitive encounter which is next level. Everybody knows MJ would've not only killed Lebron on the court from a physical skill perspective, but he would have psychologically broken him.



And btw we never saw Kobe vs Lebron in the playoffs. Lebron lost twice with HCA and 66 win teams as favorites to duck Kobe and the Lakers in the Finals. And then he joined an MVP talent Dwayne Wade to try and get over the hump while Kobe was going B2B with Pau Gasol. And then he ended up having a losing Finals record with Wade including the GOAT choke in 2011 and the biggest blowout by point differential in NBA Finals history in 2014.

So yea... as a Kobe fan I wouldn't be scared at all about facing Lebron given equal help. Lebron will put up more stats, but lower his teams ceiling and star players baseline with his AAU ball dominant approach while Kobe enhanced teammates, played in a high level system (the triangle), and would bury him in crunchtime.

This is one of the most delusional things I've ever read here.

[sdot_thadon]

Can you show me evidence that Lebron is superior in an area besides longevity?

Because I provided evidence - it's statistical fact that Jordan has a far better record of winning, domination, clutch, individual offense, individual defense, team offense, team defense, chemistry and teammate fits, teammate development, toughness/fear factor (peer testimony), and clutch - these are all statistical facts (or confirmed by peers in the case of toughness/fear factor, although 9 seasons of 82 games also confirms it).

Otoh, you've provided zero evidence of an area that Lebron is superior in, aside from playing at a lower level for longer (longevity)

so carry on...... but it's a little embarrassing that so many people fell for this crap.. it's cringeworthy to see Klutch Sports pull this off and have an actual debate about something that's long settled.

You made the argument against yourself 10 years ago apparently. My work here is unneeded, but I'll just give you a pointer. Majority of categories you can bring up between Lebron and Mj are debatable. It's always going to be a hot debate. The same things that made Mj goat? Lebron is right there step for step. But I'll sit back and enjoy you arguing in the mirror with your fate 10 years past its due date lol.

[sdot_thadon]

True. Imagine actively crusading against him on a daily basis and keep on whining that he's not the goat. It doesn't make any sense at all to do that if he's never really been that great. So much for being a homosexual narcissist. :facepalm (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTgJlaYykOeriV0g-CmztDbyLIB7OzQHuDISg&usqp=CAU)

And fail to realize the crusade just legitimizes the argument even more.

[AussieSteve]

This is big time facts.

Lebron fans were complaining about AD averaging 27/12 while being the best defensive player on either team when they lost to Denver last year.

Can you IMAGINE what they'd be saying if he put up 16 on 30 something % shooting?

:roll:

Nah

When ur opponent can only manage 80ppg on 44% shooting and a 96 ORating, you don't need an efficient high scoring 2nd option.

It was a different time. Pip's scoring numbers need to be put in context

[3ba11]

Um yeah, we're all in reality knowing Lebron got the better of Kobe head to head despite all the scowling and posturing. Also it's probably better for Kobe that they never met in the finals, seeing that Lebron is on an entirely different level in the playoffs from Kobe. And I'd imagine had he made it with the Cavs we never get a confused 2011 finals, his role was clear and there was no toes to avoid stepping on in Cleveland. He'd have annihilated Kobe, just my opinion though.


The problem is that it wasn't just 2011.. Lebron melted down in the 2010 ECSF where people said that he "gave up", so his team lost as a -500 favorite and a 62-win 1 seed (Year 7 organic juggernaut).. Then he averaged 16 on 39% for the first 3 games of the 2013 Finals and his 23 on 43% thru 6 would've been considered a massive choke if not for Allen's miracle legacy save.. Regardless, the Heat didn't win with Lebron on the floor in those Finals (zero plus/minus for series, and negative net rating)..

Then there's the 2014 Finals where he was 13 ppg shy of the GOAT standard that MJ set during the 93' Finals, so he lost by a record 13 ppg to the Spurs as a result and once again he allowed his team to quit.. And you guys knock Kobe a lot, but Kobe never lost a series as 1st option due to shooting below 40%, whereas Lebron's losses in 07', 08' and 15' could be blamed on horrific shooting..

Of course, teams cannot win if their primary ballhandler turns into a 12 turnover per game player in the clutch, but that's what happened to Lebron in clutch time (last 5 within 5) of the 2009 ECF - he averaged 12 TO per 48 min of clutch time - butterfingers in the clutch.. This was one of the reasons that the 66-win Cavs (Year 6 organic team) lost as a historic favorite (-700) to the 09' Magic - it was one of Lebron's many losses as the favorite..

Of course we all remember when a 37-year Duncan had all the age excuses that Lebron has had last year against Denver, yet Duncan won by record amount while Lebron was swept by the Nujggets - so that's just another example of Lebron getting swept (07, 18', 23'), locked up (07' Finals, 08' ECSF, 10' ECSF, 11' Finals, 13' Finals, 14' ECF, 21' 1st Round), or lost as the favorite (09', 10', 11', 14', 23'), or preseason favorite (11', 14', 15', 21'), or lottery (04', 05', 19', 22')... So Lebron career was mostly lottery, locked up, swept/record loss, or upset as the series or preseason favorite.. aka a fraud.

[3ba11]

You can’t have a “fact” statistical or otherwise which shows that an individual is better at team offense or team defense. They are not individual categories. Also, there is no chemistry stat, since chemistry is again a question of team composition, and does not belong to an individual. And the opinions of peers is just that, opinion, not fact.


It's confirmed that MJ is superior at team offense because he had better offenses with less offensive help, and this included four #1 offenses with goat margins above league average, while Lebron has zero #1 offenses despite 6 extra seasons and far more offensive help - this includes 5 teams with 2 all-star teammates (zero for MJ), or a 34 to 9 advantage in top 5 lottery draft pick teammates.

It's also confirmed that MJ is superior at chemistry and teammate fits because he infact had great chemistry and didn't have a long list of teammates where bad fits occurred, or a long list of teammates playing materially-below capacity (career highs) alongside him.. Meanwhile, Lebron had notable bad fits with Westbrook, Ingram, Hughes, Love, Bosh, Jamison, and even Wade was a weak fit that yielded underwhelming results ("not 6, not 7" turned into 2/4 including record loss and record choke)

Finally, it's confirmed that Jordan grew many single-digit rookies (Pippen, Grant, BJ) into meaningful producers, while Lebron has zero young player development in 20 seasons because his ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win.

Again, everything in the OP is backed by data and is statistical fact.. Even the "toughness" claim (9 seasons of 82 games and no nickname of "flopper" or "soft" like Lebron has)

[RachlNicholsazz]

Why is this even a debate? LeBron has recency bias on his side and still most people have MJ as the GOAT.

LeBron legacy simply cannot hold up to MJ's until he gets more FMVPs or MVPs. At least one of the 2. It's written in stone.

[3ba11]

Why is this even a debate? LeBron has recency bias on his side and still most people have MJ as the GOAT.

LeBron legacy simply cannot hold up to MJ's until he gets more FMVPs or MVPs. At least one of the 2. It's written in stone.


True - but Lebron hasn't been MVP in his 30's and obviously has less chips.

And for every season of Lebron's career except 2012, 2013, 2016, 2017, and 2020, he was either lottery, swept/record loss, locked up (in the season-ending series), or upset as the series favorite or preseason favorite

nothing like a good fraud

[SATAN]

Why is this even a debate? LeBron has recency bias on his side and still most people have MJ as the GOAT.



Yes everything is so simple, genius.

[Full Court]

It's crazy how many Mj stans feel like 2011 was the end for Lebron, it actually was the beginning that propelled him to where he sits currently. Without 2011 I don't think he develops as serious a goat case as he did following it.

You can try to spin it all you want for damage control, but 2011 knocked him out of the running for GOAT. Nobody else in the top 10 has a choke job approaching that. The only thing he's the GOAT of is shriveling.

[3ba11]

It's crazy how many Mj stans feel like 2011 was the end for Lebron, it actually was the beginning that propelled him to where he sits currently. Without 2011 I don't think he develops as serious a goat case as he did following it.


that's a 4-time lottery participant, 3-time loser as the series favorite, 4 times loser as the preseason favorite, 3 times swept, 3 times locked up in a series, 2 record losses, 30% Westbricking on game-winners, biggest loser in 3-point history of Finals, #1 all-time turnover kingpin

and counting

[SATAN]

LeBron is putting on a show right now. Andrew must be fuming. :facepalm

[Axe]

that's a 4-time lottery participant, 3-time loser as the series favorite, 4 times loser as the preseason favorite, 3 times swept, 3 times locked up in a series, 2 record losses, 30% Westbricking on game-winners, biggest loser in 3-point history of Finals, #1 all-time turnover kingpin

and counting
Yet, he still manages to attract your attention somehow and that of your braindead disciple.

[Axe]

LeBron is putting on a show right now. Andrew must be fuming. :facepalm
Careful or else, he might call you 'mohammed' as well. :yaohappy:

[3ba11]

You made the argument against yourself 10 years ago apparently. My work here is unneeded, but I'll just give you a pointer. Majority of categories you can bring up between Lebron and Mj are debatable. It's always going to be a hot debate. The same things that made Mj goat? Lebron is right there step for step. But I'll sit back and enjoy you arguing in the mirror with your fate 10 years past its due date lol.


that's your delusion

lebron had zero #1 offenses in 21 seasons, while jordan had four #1 offenses with less offensive help such as zero teams with 2 all-star teammates (5 for Lebron), or a 9 to 34 deficit in top 5 draft pick teammates

so Jordan is far better at team offense.. :confusedshrug:.. aka lebron isn't there "step for step" (your delusioin).. the other categories like individual offense, chemistry, or teammate development show a similar track record in Jordan's favor severely.


bball 101 teaches us that Jordan's expert jumpshooting skill yields high assist teams (ball movement), while lebron's ball-dominance kills ball movement and lowers everyone's APG thereby yielding low team APG

[SATAN]

Careful or else, he might call you 'mohammed' as well. :yaohappy:

Huh? I don't get it.

[Full Court]

Yet, he still manages to attract your attention somehow and that of your braindead disciple.

:roll:

Stinky biatch getting triggered every time I post.

:lebronamazed:

[Axe]

Huh? I don't get it.
I mean he quite did in another thread lmao. (https://i.ibb.co/SxWM8PC/IMG-20230805-073843.jpg)


That's all Muhammed.

[AussieSteve]

Because his premise is that winning/playing next to MJ is the only reason he's held in high regard ( he calls it the winning spotlight). Meanwhile you got guys like Tony Parker and Klay Thompson who each won 4 rings and were multiple time all-stars/all-nba guys but weren't even given top 75 spots 2 years ago, despite playing next to two top 10 level talents in Duncan and Steph.

Wait for it...


The winning spotlight got Pippen his accolades...

:oldlol:

@3ball, can you give an example of another player who benefited from the winning spotlight, to be unjustly awarded multiple accolades and end up being ranked 100s of places ahead of his rightful position all-time?

Or is it just Pippen?

[3ba11]

.
Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............. 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............. 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts




Wait for it...



:oldlol:

@3ball, can you give an example of another player who benefited from the winning spotlight, to be unjustly awarded multiple accolades and end up being ranked 100s of places ahead of his rightful position all-time?

Or is it just Pippen?


Did Klay or Tony Parker achieve goat winning via 6 chips and 2 three-peats?

Or did they win much less so the winning spotlight was much less?..

obviously it's the latter, but the reality is that Klay didn't even deserve the lesser accolades that he got because his production was far behind a guy like Hornacek (see above)

so Klay is this era's Pippen as an overrated player and inflated by winning spotlight - he's just like Pippen but didn't win as much so his accolades aren't quite as much as Pippen's... ditto tony parker..

the numbers show that Pippen wasn't even as good as Larry Nance but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status.. The numbers are on my side on this, not yours

[Wally450]

How has this shit reached 4 pages?

[3ba11]

How has this shit reached 4 pages?


Why are my threads and points treated like trolling when they're statistical facts?

For example, when I say that Lebron turns everyone into spot-up shooter and provide the exact proof about him lowering teammate APG (playmaking) and increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing) - this confirms that Lebron reduces teammates into spot-up roles, yet it's treated like a troll instead of an explanation for his weak teams or Finals record, underdog status, and constant need for more help regardless of cast.

People simply want to pretend that the 4-6 Finals record is just coincidence and circumstance.. But no veteran super-team should be underdog to baby Westbrick or get taught a basketball lesson by fossils and lose by record amount - that's a function of a team that is underperforming their on-paper talent (preseason favorite) due to weak brand of ball and chemistry

[Full Court]

How has this shit reached 4 pages?

Every time 3ball makes a thread, you have many pages of Bronie fluffers throwing bitch fits.

3ball lays out facts - Bronie fluffers melt down. Surely you've noticed this.

[GimmeThat]

pretty accurate comparison between beer and liquior by the same volume instead of alcohol content

[Wally450]

Why are my threads and points treated like trolling when they're statistical facts?

For example, when I say that Lebron turns everyone into spot-up shooter and provide the exact proof about him lowering teammate APG (playmaking) and increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing) - this confirms that Lebron reduces teammates into spot-up roles, yet it's treated like a troll instead of an explanation for his weak teams or Finals record, underdog status, and constant need for more help regardless of cast.

People simply want to pretend that the 4-6 Finals record is just coincidence and circumstance.. But no veteran super-team should be underdog to baby Westbrick or get taught a basketball lesson by fossils and lose by record amount - that's a function of a team that is underperforming their on-paper talent (preseason favorite) due to weak brand of ball and chemistry

stfu

[Lebron23]

Jordan played against plumbers and mechanics

[3ba11]

Jordan played against plumbers and mechanics


List of players that MJ and Lebron faced



1) SHAQ



Top Lebron moments:



2004-2006 were the only years of Lebron's career where Shaq had some prime left - during those years, Lebron finished behind Shaq in MVP voting (2004 and 2005), and lost the conference to him (2005 and 2006).. Lebron never dunked on him.




Top Jordan moments:



Jordan won MVP over prime Shaq in 1996 and 1998 and swept Shaq in 1996 ECF.. He also dunked on him, shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/LfHlds.gif).




2. KOBE:



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron watched Kobe win more championships during the time that both were in their prime, and also watched Kobe save the team in the 2008 Olympics.

- He missed the much-anticipated, Kobe/Lebron matchup in 2009 and 2010 Finals, because his top-seeded team underachieved by losing to lower seeds in earlier rounds.




Top Jordan moments:



- MJ dunked on Kobe in their first ever possession vs. each other, shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-13-2015/Q3fm0o.gif)

- MJ showed his protege how it's done by hitting the game-winner in the first game of the 1997 Finals, after Kobe had airballed 4 straight game-winner attempts against the same team earlier in the playoffs.

- MJ passed the torch to his protoge in the 1998 all-star game by scoring on him at will (5 times in head-to-head possessions, shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN3sto7KGQs&t=0m16s)).




3. DUNCAN



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron missed the infamous game-tying 3-pointer and needed Ray Allen to save him




Top Jordan moments:



- Jordan MADE his game-tying 3-pointer from the exact same spot during his first meeting with Duncan/Popovich in 1998 (the shot is shown here (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-05-2015/rP-QUs.gif))... Then he dominated the OT, including 2 dunks over Duncan, shown here (https://media.giphy.com/media/26FPq7nUqs2V8LyNO/giphy.gif)..

Later in that 1998 season, Jordan won the Finals against the team (Jazz) that destroyed Duncan's Spurs in WCF 2nd Round (Duncan/Robinson/Popovich's Spurs won 56 games in RS).




4. GARNETT:



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron got his shit pushed in during 2008 and 2010 ECSF




Top Jordan moments:



- Jordan schooled Garnett in the 1998 all-star game (shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/10-30-2015/q8-1iR.gif)) and during the regular season (shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/6agjm-.gif), here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/EfFINb.gif) and here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/Jp9ACT.gif)).

- The only time where MJ and Garnett were matched up defensively for an entire game was during a 2002 contest - both were matched up at SF, and 38-year old Jordan scored 35 on Garnett in every way imagineable, including various blow-by dunks and layups, shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmngcHYnfN0).




5. SHAWN MARION:



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron got locked down by OLD Shawn Marion during the 2011 Finals, which was one of the greatest chokes ever by a star in the Finals.




Top Jordan moments:



- 38-year old Jordan hit the game-winner in PRIME Shawn Marion's face during a contest in 2002 (shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjo06p5zchg&t=0m09s)), and then destroyed him for 41 points in another contest (shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg)).




6. 2003-2004 seasons



JORDAN 2003: 19.3 PER.. 20.0 ppg.. 44.5 fg
LEBRON 2004: 18.3 PER.. 20.9 ppg.. 41.7 fg

[1987_Lakers]

Jordan had a 48 TS% with the Wizards, which was below average even in that era. He also didn't provide playmaking like current LeBron does.

Chucker.

[3ba11]

Jordan had a 48 TS% with the Wizards, which was below average even in that era. He also didn't provide playmaking like current LeBron does.

Chucker.


In today's wide open beginner format, Wizards Jordan would be getting 40 ppg for a stretch

and how can you be a "chucker" when you're winning that way - Jordan is the only guy in history that could win by shooting, aka only Jordan won titles while leading league in usage

[Wardell Curry]

In today's wide open beginner format, Wizards Jordan would be getting 40 ppg for a stretch

:roll:

[dankok8]

LOL at dunking on someone being considered an accomplishment.

You can do better 3ball!

[ShawkFactory]

In today's wide open beginner format, Wizards Jordan would be getting 40 ppg for a stretch

and how can you be a "chucker" when you're winning that way - Jordan is the only guy in history that could win by shooting, aka only Jordan won titles while leading league in usage
Lol.

That was good.

[SouBeachTalents]

List of players that MJ and Lebron faced



1) SHAQ



Top Lebron moments:



2004-2006 were the only years of Lebron's career where Shaq had some prime left - during those years, Lebron finished behind Shaq in MVP voting (2004 and 2005), and lost the conference to him (2005 and 2006).. Lebron never dunked on him.




Top Jordan moments:



Jordan won MVP over prime Shaq in 1996 and 1998 and swept Shaq in 1996 ECF.. He also dunked on him, shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/LfHlds.gif).




2. KOBE:



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron watched Kobe win more championships during the time that both were in their prime, and also watched Kobe save the team in the 2008 Olympics.

- He missed the much-anticipated, Kobe/Lebron matchup in 2009 and 2010 Finals, because his top-seeded team underachieved by losing to lower seeds in earlier rounds.




Top Jordan moments:



- MJ dunked on Kobe in their first ever possession vs. each other, shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-13-2015/Q3fm0o.gif)

- MJ showed his protege how it's done by hitting the game-winner in the first game of the 1997 Finals, after Kobe had airballed 4 straight game-winner attempts against the same team earlier in the playoffs.

- MJ passed the torch to his protoge in the 1998 all-star game by scoring on him at will (5 times in head-to-head possessions, shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN3sto7KGQs&t=0m16s)).




3. DUNCAN



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron missed the infamous game-tying 3-pointer and needed Ray Allen to save him




Top Jordan moments:



- Jordan MADE his game-tying 3-pointer from the exact same spot during his first meeting with Duncan/Popovich in 1998 (the shot is shown here (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-05-2015/rP-QUs.gif))... Then he dominated the OT, including 2 dunks over Duncan, shown here (https://media.giphy.com/media/26FPq7nUqs2V8LyNO/giphy.gif)..

Later in that 1998 season, Jordan won the Finals against the team (Jazz) that destroyed Duncan's Spurs in WCF 2nd Round (Duncan/Robinson/Popovich's Spurs won 56 games in RS).




4. GARNETT:



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron got his shit pushed in during 2008 and 2010 ECSF




Top Jordan moments:



- Jordan schooled Garnett in the 1998 all-star game (shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/10-30-2015/q8-1iR.gif)) and during the regular season (shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/6agjm-.gif), here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/EfFINb.gif) and here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/Jp9ACT.gif)).

- The only time where MJ and Garnett were matched up defensively for an entire game was during a 2002 contest - both were matched up at SF, and 38-year old Jordan scored 35 on Garnett in every way imagineable, including various blow-by dunks and layups, shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmngcHYnfN0).




5. SHAWN MARION:



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron got locked down by OLD Shawn Marion during the 2011 Finals, which was one of the greatest chokes ever by a star in the Finals.




Top Jordan moments:



- 38-year old Jordan hit the game-winner in PRIME Shawn Marion's face during a contest in 2002 (shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjo06p5zchg&t=0m09s)), and then destroyed him for 41 points in another contest (shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg)).




6. 2003-2004 seasons



JORDAN 2003: 19.3 PER.. 20.0 ppg.. 44.5 fg
LEBRON 2004: 18.3 PER.. 20.9 ppg.. 41.7 fg
I see Shaq knocking Jordan out of the playoffs was strangely omitted from this list.

[John8204]

To answer the question...no Lebron doesn't just have logevity.

Lebron beat superteams....Jordan lost to them.
Lebron is a five position player...Jordan was just a guard. So Lebron could walk onto any team in the league and win while Jordan with basically a blank checque and the number 1 pick couldn't even make the playoffs.
Lebron played in an era where his best attributes were taken away...Jordan only became successful when they changed the rules and made the game softer.
Lebron played against a global community...Jordan just played against a US field and a weaker one at that.
Lebron has to live in the spotlight and has to fight the media...Jordan was able to be a reprobate and have media companies put out a fake image of him.

So yeah Lebron has a lot of things over Jordan

[3ba11]

Lol.

That was good.


At the exact age that Lebron is right now (1 month before his 39th birthday), Jordan had a 1-month stretch of 30/7/5 on 45%, which would translate to 35-40 in today's game depending on the team and situation.. Teams allow 20 ppg more nowadays, so most of that goes to the star player.. You guys are just underrating how much easier the game is today - Jordan would absolutely have a 5 or 10 game stretch at 40 ppg with all the open space and spaced-out iso's - 40-year old Mike could still do that for a short stretch in a beginner format like that - all the open shots, weak contests and wide open space - layup after layup in the half court - it's a joke compared to prior eras.. similarly, kobe's game would completely explode in today's game

[3ba11]

Lebron beat superteams....Jordan lost to them..





The only super-team Lebron faced was the 2017 Warriors, and Lebron had his own super-team where his sidekick outplayed their league MVP the prior year.

Furthermore, a super-team = 3 franchise players on 1 team

since the 2016 Cavs had 3 franchise players from 3 different teams join 1 team and the Warriors only had 1 franchise player (Curry), the Cavs were favored in the preaseason.. but this favored talent fell to underdog due to inferior brand of ball.. Again, Curry's Warriors were perceived to have less on-paper talent (they weren't the preseason favorite) but their superior brand of ball achieved a superior regular season record and favorite status





Lebron is a five position player...Jordan was just a guard...





Lebron doesn't play 5 positions as proven by his bad fits with many teammates like Westbrook, Love, Ingram, Bosh, Hughes, Jamison, IT, Wade and many more

Lebron only has a point guard skillset in a forward body (abnormal ball-dominance for his position), which imposes spot-up roles upon teammates and therefore weak fits, chemistry and strategic capacity/coaching - these things yield weaker teams, Finals records and perennial underdog status regardless of cast (aka underdog to baby Westbrick or fossil Duncan despite being preseason favorite - so the favored talent of Lebron's rosters fell to underdog due to weak brand of ball).






Lebron played in an era where his best attributes were taken away...Jordan only became successful when they changed the rules and made the game softer.





Lebron plays in a format designed for primary ball-handlers like himself - this includes a hands-off format so the perimeter defender cannot touch the ball-handler, and also "no impede" rules, which ban defense entirely - defenders cannot "impede" the ballhandler from going where he wants, aka the defender isn't allowed to play defense...

In addition to the hands-off and no-impede rules that help ball-handlers, the paint is wide open in today's game because of modern spacing strategy (prolific use of the 3-point line)... Otoh, Jordan played in a league that was suboptimal for ball-handlers due to packed paints (no use of 3-point line) and higher physicality like hand-checking, forearms and impeding was allowed - so the format had higher physicality than today's game even after flagrant fouls were instituted.

[3ba11]

I see Shaq knocking Jordan out of the playoffs was strangely omitted from this list.


How many series did Lebron win with AD getting 19 on 40%?

with literally zero in the clutch like Pippen did in that series and literally every series?

Those kinds of things are routinely omitted from Lebron's resume.. Heck, Lebron's sidekick can average 27 ppg and the team get swept (2023) or beaten by near-record amount (2017), yet lebron will receive zero criticism and the events are wiped from history outside of a few integrity-based youtube channels with no views.. it's a sad state of affairs where the media misreports to push a false narrative.. They're flat out liars and fraudsters (Klutch plants) at this point, pushing bs about a loser that isn't capable of having a winning Finals record regardless of cast (20-21 in Finals excluding 07', 15', 18')

[ShawkFactory]

At the exact age that Lebron is right now (1 month before his 39th birthday), Jordan had a 1-month stretch of 30/7/5 on 45%, which would translate to 35-40 in today's game depending on the team and situation.. Teams allow 20 ppg more nowadays, so most of that goes to the star player.. You guys are just underrating how much easier the game is today - Jordan would absolutely have a 5 or 10 game stretch at 40 ppg with all the open space and spaced-out iso's - 40-year old Mike could still do that for a short stretch in a beginner format like that - all the open shots, weak contests and wide open space - layup after layup in the half court - it's a joke compared to prior eras.. similarly, kobe's game would completely explode in today's game

Not really.

Star players play less minutes and take less shots than before. Teams employ deeper lineups and conserve energy throughout the season.

[SouBeachTalents]

How many series did Lebron win with AD getting 19 on 40%?

with literally zero in the clutch like Pippen did in that series and literally every series?

Those kinds of things are routinely omitted from Lebron's resume.. Heck, Lebron's sidekick can average 27 ppg and the team get swept (2023) or beaten by near-record amount (2017), yet lebron will receive zero criticism and the events are wiped from history outside of a few integrity-based youtube channels with no views.. it's a sad state of affairs where the media misreports to push a false narrative.. They're flat out liars and fraudsters (Klutch plants) at this point, pushing bs about a loser that isn't capable of having a winning Finals record regardless of cast (20-21 in Finals excluding 07', 15', 18')
Pippen 1995 ECSF: 19/10/6 52%TS
Wade 2013 Finals: 20/4/5 51%TS

Oops.

Also, Pippen wasn't the one doing shit like this in the clutch in that series


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b58glke4ZIQ&ab_channel=NBA

[AussieSteve]

.


Did Klay or Tony Parker achieve goat winning via 6 chips and 2 three-peats?

Or did they win much less so the winning spotlight was much less?..

obviously it's the latter, but the reality is that Klay didn't even deserve the lesser accolades that he got because his production was far behind a guy like Hornacek (see above)

so Klay is this era's Pippen as an overrated player and inflated by winning spotlight - he's just like Pippen but didn't win as much so his accolades aren't quite as much as Pippen's... ditto tony parker..

the numbers show that Pippen wasn't even as good as Larry Nance but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status.. The numbers are on my side on this, not yours



Pippen was All-NBA and All-D 1st team in 94. No chip.

Pippen was All-NBA and All-D 1st team in 95. No chip.

Pippen was All-NBA and All-D 1st team in 96, before going on to win a chip.

3 straight years of All-NBA and All-D 1sts between his 3rd and 4rd ring. So your argument is nonsense.

So question. Has anyone else in history benefited for the winning spotlight to unjustly win these kinds of accolades? Or was it just Pippen?

[3ba11]

Pippen 1995 ECSF: 19/10/6 52%TS
Wade 2013 Finals: 20/4/5 51%TS

Oops.

Also, Pippen wasn't the one doing shit like this in the clutch in that series


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b58glke4ZIQ&ab_channel=NBA


Wade 2011 Finals....... 27 ppg..... LOSS
AD 2023 WCF............. 27 ppg.... LOSS
Kyrie 2017 Finals........ 29 ppg.... LOSS


Otoh, Jordan 3-peated with 17 on 41% from Pippen in the 96-98' Playoffs and only needed 18 ppg to be undefeated with Pippen, except the baseball year where he lost with 19 from Pippen..

Ultimately, Lebron's help was infinitely superior because he had franchise players at sidekick that he took from other teams and these guys could achieve elite stats that matched Lebron, while Jordan was forced to win with garbage from non-franchise player like Pippen, who wasn't capable of elite production and had a low peak capability (not on scouting report according to Shaq).

[3ba11]

Pippen was All-NBA and All-D 1st team in 94. No chip.

Pippen was All-NBA and All-D 1st team in 95. No chip.

Pippen was All-NBA and All-D 1st team in 96, before going on to win a chip.

3 straight years of All-NBA and All-D 1sts between his 3rd and 4rd ring. So your argument is nonsense.

So question. Has anyone else in history benefited for the winning spotlight to unjustly win these kinds of accolades? Or was it just Pippen?


When did Pippen start getting All-NBA?

Only after he won a couple chips or it was clear that he would be a historic winner since the Bulls were favored to repeat in 92' - only then did he get attention and All-NBA...

Otherwise, Pippen's sub-par production and lack of "go-to" ability (mostly a transition player & dunker) would never be considered for All-NBA without the spotlight of multiple chips and historic, unprecedented winning spotlight alongside the apparent GOAT... Only then did he get All-NBA..

It's similar to Horace Grant, who would be like his brother Harvey Grant (unknown) if he didn't play with Jordan... Similarly, if Pippen was on a non-champion and not alongside Jordan, he wouldn't be considered for awards and wouldn't even be a 2nd option - he was only a 2nd option alongside Jordan where there was no 3rd-scorer and Jordan could carry the load, otherwise Pippen was 3rd to 6th option on regular teams that had numerous scoring options like the Rockets or Blazers..

Those experiences after his Bulls career showed that it took nothing to supplant Pippen as 2nd option and even Kukoc led Pippen in 4th quarter and clutch scoring for the 98' Playoffs - he was the 2nd option for that playoff run and also 96' Finals where Pippen couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. The stats tell the story of Pippen's inability to handle a 2nd option load - his worst-ever efficiency and shooting splits in the 93, 96' and 98' Playoffs confirm that he couldn't really handle the 2nd option load or shot burden, but the GOAT scorer offset this deficit and Bulls still won.

[AussieSteve]

When did Pippen start getting All-NBA?

Only after he won a couple chips or it was clear that he would be a historic winner since the Bulls were favored to repeat in 92' - only then did he get attention and All-NBA...

Otherwise, Pippen's sub-par production and lack of "go-to" ability (mostly a transition player & dunker) would never be considered for All-NBA without the spotlight of multiple chips and historic, unprecedented winning spotlight alongside the apparent GOAT... Only then did he get All-NBA..

It's similar to Horace Grant, who would be like his brother Harvey Grant (unknown) if he didn't play with Jordan... Similarly, if Pippen was on a non-champion and not alongside Jordan, he wouldn't be considered for awards and wouldn't even be a 2nd option - he was only a 2nd option alongside Jordan where there was no 3rd-scorer and Jordan could carry the load, otherwise Pippen was 3rd to 6th option on regular teams that had numerous scoring options like the Rockets or Blazers..

Those experiences after his Bulls career showed that it took nothing to supplant Pippen as 2nd option and even Kukoc led Pippen in 4th quarter and clutch scoring for the 98' Playoffs - he was the 2nd option for that playoff run and also 96' Finals where Pippen couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. The stats tell the story of Pippen's inability to handle a 2nd option load - his worst-ever efficiency and shooting splits in the 93, 96' and 98' Playoffs confirm that he couldn't really handle the 2nd option load or shot burden, but the GOAT scorer offset this deficit and Bulls still won.

OK. Pip's first All NBA was after winning only 1 ring. He then won 7 straight selections. So, your really reaching here.

But back to the question; has anyone else in history attracted the same kind of undeserved accolades purely by being carried along by a winning spotlight? Can you name anyone?

[3ba11]

OK. Pip's first All NBA was after winning only 1 ring. He then won 7 straight selections. So, your really reaching here.





Pip was garbage when he entered the league and grew to a poor-shooting transition dunker that could get 20 system points after growing up alongside the GOAT - this was never All-NBA caliber but he got All-NBA once there were titles attached... ditto Klay





But back to the question; has anyone else in history attracted the same kind of undeserved accolades purely by being carried along by a winning spotlight? Can you name anyone?


I thought that I already did.. Similar to Pippen, Klay Thompson is a non-franchise player and low producer with much lower production across the board than even someone like Jeff Hornacek (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP) in the regular season and playoffs.. So Klay isn't even a Hornacek-level producer on offense, yet he was considered one of the possible snubs for top 75.. The only reason he wasn't a shoe-in for that accolade was because didn't have unprecedented, historic winning like Pippen had during his day when 3-peating or 70 wins was historic and unprecedented.. or 6 chips....

But if Klay had 2 three-peats alongside the GOAT, then he would easily be top 75.. However, this would require that Curry carry a heavier burden like lead the league in usage and still win titles, which only MJ has ever done.. So only MJ can carry a player like Klay to 6 chips.. Other guys are HOF due to winning spotlight like Tony Parker (a Terry Porter-caliber player) or Igoudala is a candidate because he was carried to chips.. Also, most great teams had 3+ scorers, so guys like Worthy or Robert Parish are underrated by sharing spotlight with numerous other all-stars, while guys like Pippen or Klay didn't have to share spotlight with 3rd scorers (at least not until KD arrived) - so having a thin roster with no 3rd scoring options inflates guys like Klay and Pippen who don't share spotlight with 3rd scorers like say, Worthy or Parish did.

[John8204]

The only super-team Lebron faced was the 2017 Warriors, and Lebron had his own super-team where his sidekick outplayed their league MVP the prior year.

Furthermore, a super-team = 3 franchise players on 1 team

If that is your standard than Lebron has beaten 8 superteams.
Detroit (Webber, Wallace, Billups)
Celtics (Garnett, Pierce, Allen)
Chicago (Boozer, Noah, Rose)
Nets (Williams, Garnett, Pierce)
OKC (Durant, Westbrook, Harden)
Spurs (Duncan, Parker, McGrady, Leonard)
Warriors (Curry. Thompson, Green)


Lebron doesn't play 5 positions as proven by his bad fits with many teammates like Westbrook, Love, Ingram, Bosh, Hughes, Jamison, IT, Wade and many more

You claim it was a bat fit...he made the finals with Wade, Irving, Love, and Bosh. IT was injured, Ingram was on his way out. You know whats a bad fit...losing with Oakley, Gervin, and Stackhouse.

[AussieSteve]

Pip was garbage when he entered the league and grew to a poor-shooting transition dunker that could get 20 system points after growing up alongside the GOAT - this was never All-NBA caliber but he got All-NBA once there were titles attached... ditto Klay





I thought that I already did.. Similar to Pippen, Klay Thompson is a non-franchise player and low producer with much lower production across the board than even someone like Jeff Hornacek (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP) in the regular season and playoffs.. So Klay isn't even a Hornacek-level producer on offense, yet he was considered one of the possible snubs for top 75.. The only reason he wasn't a shoe-in for that accolade was because didn't have unprecedented, historic winning like Pippen had during his day when 3-peating or 70 wins was historic and unprecedented.. or 6 chips....

But if Klay had 2 three-peats alongside the GOAT, then he would easily be top 75.. However, this would require that Curry carry a heavier burden like lead the league in usage and still win titles, which only MJ has ever done.. So only MJ can carry a player like Klay to 6 chips.. Other guys are HOF due to winning spotlight like Tony Parker (a Terry Porter-caliber player) or Igoudala is a candidate because he was carried to chips.. Also, most great teams had 3+ scorers, so guys like Worthy or Robert Parish are underrated by sharing spotlight with numerous other all-stars, while guys like Pippen or Klay didn't have to share spotlight with 3rd scorers (at least not until KD arrived) - so having a thin roster with no 3rd scoring options inflates guys like Klay and Pippen who don't share spotlight with 3rd scorers like say, Worthy or Parish did.


Klay made All-NBA 3rd team in 2015. Before having won his first ring. He made All-NBA 3rd team again in 2016, having won one ring and being on a 73 win team. He then went on to play in 5 more finals and win 3 more rings, but made no more All-NBA teams.

Klay also got his only ever MVP vote before he'd won a ring. He subsequently played in 6 straight finals and won 4 rings, without a single MVP place vote.

It seems to me that he achieved these accolades himself and that the winning spotlight did nothing for him.

Besides. Pip made made All NBA 1st teams. Three of them. Klay never even got on a 2nd team. Pip received 1st place MVP votes in consecutive seasons. Klay receive one 5th place vote in his entire career.

Try again. I want to know if Pip was the only player ever to get these kind of all-time-great level kudos and awards, due solely to the winning spotlight. And if so, why?

[Full Court]

Cliffs:

The ONLY thing Lebron has on Jordan is playing more total seasons.

Jordan blows him out of the water in every category.

39-year old Jordan was better than 39-year old Lebron.

[Wardell Curry]

Cliffs:

The ONLY thing Lebron has on Jordan is playing more total seasons.

Jordan blows him out of the water in every category.

39-year old Jordan was better than 39-year old Lebron.

You weren't alive when Jordan was playing, even for the Wizards. Also, you've never watched a single Jordan game from beginning to end. Tbh, you probably haven't even watched a single LeBron game from beginning to end, or any other player or team for that matter, lol.

[3ba11]

.
Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............ 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............ 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts


TLDR: Klay has a far lower production rate than Jeff Hornacek, who has a far lower production rate than Reggie Miller.. #levelstothis






Klay made All-NBA 3rd team in 2015. Before having won his first ring. He made All-NBA 3rd team again in 2016, having won one ring and being on a 73 win team. He then went on to play in 5 more finals and win 3 more rings, but made no more All-NBA teams.

Klay also got his only ever MVP vote before he'd won a ring. He subsequently played in 6 straight finals and won 4 rings, without a single MVP place vote.

It seems to me that he achieved these accolades himself and that the winning spotlight did nothing for him.





Klay benefitted from the surprise factor of the 3-point boom and the Warriors coming out of nowhere in 2015, but he's infact a low-producer (see the stats above).

So he wouldn't be a 2nd option or All-NBA on any other contender, or outside the optimal system that he grew up in, or alongside a weaker 1st option that needs more scoring help.. The weak production of Klay and Pippen meant that it didn't take much to supplant them as 2nd option as we saw in 2022 with "bum" Andrew Wiggins, or as we saw when Kukoc frequently took over the 2nd-scorer role for the Bulls (Kukoc led Bulls in 4th quarter & clutch scoring for 98' Playoffs, aside from MJ)..

So it took nothing to supplant these guys as 2nd option and they could only be 2nd option alongside MJ-level scorers like MJ himself or MVP Curry.. These goat 1st options could win with a non-elite 2nd option scorer and no 3rd scoring option.. The lack of 3rd scoring option to compete for spotlight with further inflated Pippen or Klay versus guys like Worthy or Parish, who competed with numerous all-star teammates.






Besides. Pip made made All NBA 1st teams. Three of them. Klay never even got on a 2nd team. Pip received 1st place MVP votes in consecutive seasons. Klay receive one 5th place vote in his entire career.





Klay's accolades are less because he had less winning spotlight by only being carried to 4 chips instead of 6 and 2 three-peats like Pip, while Pip also played alongside the GOAT to increase the spotlight further.. Pip had unprecedented winning spotlight, so his inflation is unprecedented (most overrated player ever).






Try again. I want to know if Pip was the only player ever to get these kind of all-time-great level kudos and awards, due solely to the winning spotlight. And if so, why?





Pippen is the only guy to get inflated to the extent that he did - he's the most overrated player like I've said many times.. He was inflated more than anyone else because his winning spotlight was unprecedented by 2 three-peats in the modern/TV era alongside the GOAT.

[sdot_thadon]

.
Isn't it statistical fact and consensus that Jordan has a better record at everything else like:


* winning- Lebron has 4 titles against tougher finals opponents(if you think thats a gap wait till you see the guy that has 5 more than Mj), he's made it to the final round 10 times. He's won in Multiple cities, hes a walking dynstay.
* dominance- Lebron is one of the most dominant nba superstars ever, this is stupider than your 1st point.
* individual offense- scoring, but Lebron is the all time leading scorer while being one of the best playmakers ever at the same time.
* individual defense-overall, trophy wise sure, but Lebrons defensive peak was at a level Mj couldnt fathom.
* team offense- the guy who runs offesnses his entire career is the better of the 2 at team offense duh. Jordan had his teammates crying over shot attempts even after the triangle was implemented to force the ball out of his hands....
* team defense- again the better help defender and guy whos been quarterbacking defenses throughout his career is probably the better team defender.
* chemistry/fits-one guy only wins in one specific shape based scenario (triangle) while the other has made the finals over and over with different coaches, teammates and jerseys throughout his career.
* teammate development-one guy has people looking like rotational players that were basically out of the league the minute they werent his teammates any longer. Mj helped with Pippens development, but why not a single other player? Had more to do with Pippen than Mj
* clutch -most playoff gamewinners ever.
* fear factor- thats a tv show dummy
* toughness- skinny sg vs linebacker sized forward who spends 21 straight years crashing into the paint over and over
* 6/6 with 1 all-star vs 2/4 with multiple all-stars-correction 6 rings with and all nba/all defensive sidekick that no other star had, vs 4 rings and never having a teammate make all defense even once.
* burden (6 titles while leading NBA in usage and carrying the usage load on his team)-Iin an offense designed to limit his touches, imagine that. Vs running the entire offense on his teams for the majority of his career
* winning without multiple all-star teammates or "1b" teammates that have equal -winning with the best sidekick in the league for the decade
* not teaming up with opposing franchise players (organic team growth through ups and downs)-not playing in the free agency era but almost getting traded to the clippers in his prime lol
[/indent]


doesn't that make it a fake debate?.. sure it's cool that a 39 year-old still plays at a prime Larry Johnson level but isn't having a goat debate over it a little overboard?.. :confusedshrug:
Nope.

[SATAN]

You weren't alive when Jordan was playing, even for the Wizards. Also, you've never watched a single Jordan game from beginning to end. Tbh, you probably haven't even watched a single LeBron game from beginning to end, or any other player or team for that matter, lol.

:oldlol:

[3ba11]

Nope.


The 98' Jazz destroyed 22-year old Duncan, Robinson and Popovich - so there's no reason to believe the Spurs had better on-paper talent than the Bulls' opponents because Jazz had the least talent of any Bulls opponent in the Finals...

Jordan basically beat 6 Spurs-like teams (long-standing organic juggernauts but in a parity league so only 1 "spurs" made it out of the west each year).. The 17' and 18' Warriors were superior, but Jordan would've beaten them easily with the extra all-stars and franchise player teammates that Lebron had (super-teams).. And the 2015 or 2016 Cavs were preseason favorites, so they the had the talent edge but weak brand caused a fall to underdog by the time the Finals rolled around.. This is standard procedure for Bron-ball - it always underachieves favored talent, aka loses with the preseason favorite, or falls to underdog.

So that takes care of your "comp" argument.. Btw, Jordan had a much tougher path through the East based on opponent SRS and opponent win-loss - Lebron used to face all losing teams until the ECF - this happened once or twice and Jordan was forced to beat 2 or 3x times as many 50 and 60-win teams in his eastern playoff career.

And there's no evidence of Lebron's superior domination - there's only evidence of Jordan's such as twice the MVP or championship frequency and superior PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, PPG, plus/minus, raptor, percentage of possessions used (usage) and the efficiency on those possessions (ORTG).. Jordan was clearly more dominant in every measurable way.

Btw, Lebron wasn't all-defense in his 30's, so he wasn't required to be a good defender for the latter half of his chips, while passing less than MJ for the first half (lower APG for the first 9 years of their respective playoff careers, aka 06-14' vs 85-93').. So that kills your "defensive peak" argument - Lebron wasn't an elite defender for most of his career.

Furthermore, Lebron is 1/4 with AD, Love or Wade (except the Allen miracle) - so he's clearly a 1/4 guy and can't get anywhere near 3-peat or 6 chips with any lineup including those that he hand-selects - if a player cannot get anywhere near the 3-peat or 6-chip standard with the lineups they hand-select, than how could they do it with the worst lane-clogging and shooting splits in history like Pippen in 93', 96', or 98 Playoffs and a team of role players, or an offense that lacks a PG role and therefore is opposite of their game?.. Lebron could never win with that Bulls team let alone go 6/6 and he obviously can't get anywhere near this with any lineup including his hand-picked casts.. Need I go on?.. I think that's enough for now.

And btw, every contender during the 1st three-peat had 3x all-stars at 3rd option (Nance, Majerle, Laimbeer), while 3rd options during the 2nd three-peat were All-NBA (Schrempf, Mashburn, Mason).. Meanwhile, the 91' Lakers had HOF Vlade destroy Horace in the Finals and the Knicks had 5 guys that were equal or superior to Horace including Mark Jackson, X-Man, Mason, and Oakley, so they had a far superior roster.. The bulls roster was among the thinnest in the league, which is why it required the league usage leader to lead them to titles (unprecedented).

btw, Lebron is 30% on game-winners in the playoffs, while MJ is 50% (icewater in veins).. Meanwhile, Lebron is 0-10 on game-tying or go-ahead buckets of the last possession in Finals, while MJ is 4-8 (icewater).. Meanwhile, the 97' and 98' Playoffs showed old Jordan shooting 48% on 3.6 clutch attempts (last 5 within 5), compared to 40% on 3.0 attempts for Lebron (20% higher clutch burden/attempts for Jordan on far greater effiicency)..

And it wasn't just Pippen that developed alongside Jordan - BJ and Grant grew from single-digit rookies into meaningful producers, while Oakley grew and played to capacity, as did Woolridge or Sam Vincent.. So Jordan's off-ball style allowed the ball to move and everyone to grow.. Jordan's off-ball game put the ball in teammates' hands, so he was a massive assist target that bailed out ball-handlers, thereby making their job easier and allowing them to grow and have higher APG.. Otoh, Lebron's ball-domination lowers teammate APG and increases their assisted rate - aka he imposes spot-up roles which stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically).. His spot-up role style yields inferior teammate development, fits and strategic capacity/coaching, thereby yielding weaker teams, Finals records and perennial underdog status on the championship level..

[Full Court]

You weren't alive when Jordan was playing, even for the Wizards. Also, you've never watched a single Jordan game from beginning to end. Tbh, you probably haven't even watched a single LeBron game from beginning to end, or any other player or team for that matter, lol.

How typical.

I post facts. You respond with a melt down.

:roll:

It's what we call throwing a bitch fit.

[1987_Lakers]

How typical.

I post facts. You respond with a melt down.

:roll:

It's what we call throwing a bitch fit.

Serious question though, did you see MJ play? Or at least seen some of his games?

[AussieSteve]

.

Pippen is the only guy to get inflated to the extent that he did - he's the most overrated player like I've said many times.. He was inflated more than anyone else because his winning spotlight was unprecedented by 2 three-peats in the modern/TV era alongside the GOAT.

You seem to be suggesting that either everyone was clairvoyant in the early-mid 90s and somehow knew the Bulls were going to have unprecedented success before it happened, or that someone went back and meddled with the historical records after they achieved this success.

These are the only options if you are correct, because all of Pippen's accolades came before they had unprecedented success.

His first All NBA came after just one ring. All three of his 1st team selections came before his 4th ring.

So we're people clairvoyant? Or did someone doctor the historical record after the fact?

Face it. There was no parity in the 90s. The Bulls were the only team with two MVP calibre players.

[Axe]

You weren't alive when Jordan was playing, even for the Wizards. Also, you've never watched a single Jordan game from beginning to end. Tbh, you probably haven't even watched a single LeBron game from beginning to end, or any other player or team for that matter, lol.
:oldlol:

[AussieSteve]

You seem to be suggesting that either everyone was clairvoyant in the early-mid 90s and somehow knew the Bulls were going to have unprecedented success before it happened, or that someone went back and meddled with the historical records after they achieved this success.

These are the only options if you are correct, because all of Pippen's accolades came before they had unprecedented success.

His first All NBA came after just one ring. All three of his 1st team selections came before his 4th ring.

So we're people clairvoyant? Or did someone doctor the historical record after the fact?

Face it. There was no parity in the 90s. The Bulls were the only team with two MVP calibre players.

Pippen was by so far and away the best #2 in the league. He was better than most #1's

Some proof.

Season | All-NBA voting rank | All-D voting rank
'92 | 6 | 5
'93 | 11 | 5
'94 | 1 | 1
'95 | 3 | 1
'96 | 2 | 1
'97 | 7 | 1
'98 | 10 | 4

Undisputed top 5 player in the league at both ends of the floor in his prime.

Yes Jordan was the best player in the world, but how was any team supposed to have a chance when more often than not, Pippen was the 2nd best player on the floor.

[8Ball]

The 98' Jazz destroyed 22-year old Duncan, Robinson and Popovich - so there's no reason to believe the Spurs had better on-paper talent than the Bulls' opponents because Jazz had the least talent of any Bulls opponent in the Finals...

Jordan basically beat 6 Spurs-like teams (long-standing organic juggernauts but in a parity league so only 1 "spurs" made it out of the west each year).. The 17' and 18' Warriors were superior, but Jordan would've beaten them easily with the extra all-stars and franchise player teammates that Lebron had (super-teams).. And the 2015 or 2016 Cavs were preseason favorites, so they the had the talent edge but weak brand caused a fall to underdog by the time the Finals rolled around.. This is standard procedure for Bron-ball - it always underachieves favored talent, aka loses with the preseason favorite, or falls to underdog.

So that takes care of your "comp" argument.. Btw, Jordan had a much tougher path through the East based on opponent SRS and opponent win-loss - Lebron used to face all losing teams until the ECF - this happened once or twice and Jordan was forced to beat 2 or 3x times as many 50 and 60-win teams in his eastern playoff career.

And there's no evidence of Lebron's superior domination - there's only evidence of Jordan's such as twice the MVP or championship frequency and superior PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, PPG, plus/minus, raptor, percentage of possessions used (usage) and the efficiency on those possessions (ORTG).. Jordan was clearly more dominant in every measurable way.

Btw, Lebron wasn't all-defense in his 30's, so he wasn't required to be a good defender for the latter half of his chips, while passing less than MJ for the first half (lower APG for the first 9 years of their respective playoff careers, aka 06-14' vs 85-93').. So that kills your "defensive peak" argument - Lebron wasn't an elite defender for most of his career.

Furthermore, Lebron is 1/4 with AD, Love or Wade (except the Allen miracle) - so he's clearly a 1/4 guy and can't get anywhere near 3-peat or 6 chips with any lineup including those that he hand-selects - if a player cannot get anywhere near the 3-peat or 6-chip standard with the lineups they hand-select, than how could they do it with the worst lane-clogging and shooting splits in history like Pippen in 93', 96', or 98 Playoffs and a team of role players, or an offense that lacks a PG role and therefore is opposite of their game?.. Lebron could never win with that Bulls team let alone go 6/6 and he obviously can't get anywhere near this with any lineup including his hand-picked casts.. Need I go on?.. I think that's enough for now.

And btw, every contender during the 1st three-peat had 3x all-stars at 3rd option (Nance, Majerle, Laimbeer), while 3rd options during the 2nd three-peat were All-NBA (Schrempf, Mashburn, Mason).. Meanwhile, the 91' Lakers had HOF Vlade destroy Horace in the Finals and the Knicks had 5 guys that were equal or superior to Horace including Mark Jackson, X-Man, Mason, and Oakley, so they had a far superior roster.. The bulls roster was among the thinnest in the league, which is why it required the league usage leader to lead them to titles (unprecedented).

btw, Lebron is 30% on game-winners in the playoffs, while MJ is 50% (icewater in veins).. Meanwhile, Lebron is 0-10 on game-tying or go-ahead buckets of the last possession in Finals, while MJ is 4-8 (icewater).. Meanwhile, the 97' and 98' Playoffs showed old Jordan shooting 48% on 3.6 clutch attempts (last 5 within 5), compared to 40% on 3.0 attempts for Lebron (20% higher clutch burden/attempts for Jordan on far greater effiicency)..

And it wasn't just Pippen that developed alongside Jordan - BJ and Grant grew from single-digit rookies into meaningful producers, while Oakley grew and played to capacity, as did Woolridge or Sam Vincent.. So Jordan's off-ball style allowed the ball to move and everyone to grow.. Jordan's off-ball game put the ball in teammates' hands, so he was a massive assist target that bailed out ball-handlers, thereby making their job easier and allowing them to grow and have higher APG.. Otoh, Lebron's ball-domination lowers teammate APG and increases their assisted rate - aka he imposes spot-up roles which stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically).. His spot-up role style yields inferior teammate development, fits and strategic capacity/coaching, thereby yielding weaker teams, Finals records and perennial underdog status on the championship level..

Cliff notes:


39 year old Wizards Jordan was a dog shit player meanwhile 39 year old LeBron is top 5-10.


Jordan tards melting right now.

[8Ball]

We won. The war is over. Jordan will never be unanimous GOAT ever again for the rest of humanity.


Wizards Jordan is the most important piece of the GOAT debate. The Rosetta stone.



We have footage and evidence of how garbage he was compared to the competition in his 14 and 15th season, ages 38 and 39. Barely a top 30 player that nobody cared about and was his "farewell" tour season of an aging star hanging on and getting his pity clap around the league.


You can't lie about it. He was bad. 8 point games, 9 point games. 40% fg, 20 ppg.



Meanwhile the GOAT LeBron is stampeding all over Jordan's legacy. 25/7/7 on 54% while being a top 5-10 player in the league still, 21 seasons in and age near 39.

Jordan just can't compete with it.

[tpols]

Pippen was by so far and away the best #2 in the league. He was better than most #1's

Some proof.

Season | All-NBA voting rank | All-D voting rank
'92 | 6 | 5
'93 | 11 | 5
'94 | 1 | 1
'95 | 3 | 1
'96 | 2 | 1
'97 | 7 | 1
'98 | 10 | 4

Undisputed top 5 player in the league at both ends of the floor in his prime.

Yes Jordan was the best player in the world, but how was any team supposed to have a chance when more often than not, Pippen was the 2nd best player on the floor.


Pippen has absolutely no case at being considered a better basketball player than

MJ
Barkley
Robinson
Shaq
Hakeem

Like 0 case... so your statement is false right off the bat.

Then we have...

Malone
Ewing
Clyde
Reggie
Payton
Kemp
Stockton
KJ

who were all better as well especially in the playoffs. Especially Karl Malone and Ewing who were clearly better as well.

Ewing and Pippen met in the playoffs at their peaks as 1st options with equal help and Pippen had a meltdown while Pat banged him out.

[tpols]

Aussie Steve really lost the plot. This man just called pippen a top 5 offensive player in the 90s. Thats an amazingly ridiculous assertion that no metric big or small or eye test could come even remotely close to supporting. This is precisely why 3ball does what he does.

[1987_Lakers]

Aussie Steve really lost the plot. This man just called pippen a top 5 offensive player in the 90s. Thats an amazingly ridiculous assertion that no metric big or small or eye test could come even remotely close to supporting. This is precisely why 3ball does what he does.

I wouldn't call him a top 5 offensive player throughout the 90's, but you could say there was a couple of seasons where he was for sure top 10. And add to the fact that at one point he was the league's best perimeter defender

[ShawkFactory]

Pippen has absolutely no case at being considered a better basketball player than

MJ
Barkley
Robinson
Shaq
Hakeem

Like 0 case... so your statement is false right off the bat.

Then we have...

Malone
Ewing
Clyde
Reggie
Payton
Kemp
Stockton
KJ

who were all better as well especially in the playoffs. Especially Karl Malone and Ewing who were clearly better as well.

Ewing and Pippen met in the playoffs at their peaks as 1st options with equal help and Pippen had a meltdown while Pat banged him out.

Those top 5 and Malone, Ewing, Clyde. After that Pippen is on the same tier. Depending on the team and situation you could choose him over any of the others.

[Full Court]

Cliff notes:


39 year old Wizards Jordan was a dog shit player meanwhile 39 year old LeBron is top 5-10.


Jordan tards melting right now.

Insecure canuck sounds depserate. As usual. :roll:

I guess that's to be expected when your hero has the most choke jobs of all time though.

:lebronamazed:

[NBAGOAT]

Pippen has absolutely no case at being considered a better basketball player than

MJ
Barkley
Robinson
Shaq
Hakeem

Like 0 case... so your statement is false right off the bat.

Then we have...

Malone
Ewing
Clyde
Reggie
Payton
Kemp
Stockton
KJ

who were all better as well especially in the playoffs. Especially Karl Malone and Ewing who were clearly better as well.

Ewing and Pippen met in the playoffs at their peaks as 1st options with equal help and Pippen had a meltdown while Pat banged him out.

barkley and shaq's primes dont coincide much however. barkley was better during 1st 3peat shaq 2nd but the other guy wasnt a factor during those periods. Just 94 and 95 were both in their primes but you can argue pippen>barkley pretty easily by those years.

[3ba11]

You seem to be suggesting that either everyone was clairvoyant in the early-mid 90s and somehow knew the Bulls were going to have unprecedented success





yes this is true - once MJ finally got through the Bad Boys and then won the Magic vs Michael dream matchup, everyone knew that he would not be stopped from that point forward - if you were there, you would understand how long MJ labored to get past the Bad Boys - the goat cutting-of-teeth path and convincing breakthrough signaled a changing of the guard because even though Bird & Magic had been great, their day was over and it was clear that MJ was taking the competition to a whole new level.. Everyone knew we were in for a long ride.. The winning spotlight that followed was unprecedented and Pippen was the biggest beneficiary, but not because anyone paid attention to him - it was the fact that his performance WASN'T paid attention to - he was blindly given awards just because he was sidekick on a goat-winning team despite frequently wetting the bed and generally being a low-producer compared to the accolades he received..

It's important to note that a big part of the reason for Pippen's massive inflation is that the Bulls are the first and only 2-star dynasty, while every other dynasty had MANY all-stars - so unlike Parish, Worthy or Parker, Pippen doesn't have to share shine with 3rd and 4th stars and is viewed as bigger than them by being a 2-star dynasty - but the reality is that Pippen's production was ordinary, while MJ's goat production carried the load and allowed a 2-star dynasty.

[ImKobe]

Aussie Steve really lost the plot. This man just called pippen a top 5 offensive player in the 90s. Thats an amazingly ridiculous assertion that no metric big or small or eye test could come even remotely close to supporting. This is precisely why 3ball does what he does.

Mind you that Pippen as the #2 had 3 games of 30+ pts in the POs in their 6 title runs combined, and those 3 came in their first 2 runs.

[3ba11]

.

Pippen vs opposing forwards and long wings


92' X-Man'............. 19 on 50% (3rd option)
92' Pippen............. 16 on 40%

92' Drexler............. 25 on 41%
92' Pippen'............. 21 on 48%

93' Dominique........ 30 on 44%
93' Willis'............... 18 on 44%
93' Pippen.............. 15 on 33%

93' Barkley............. 25 on 50%
93' Pippen.............. 20 on 43%

93' Dumas............. 16 on 57% (4th option)
93' Pippen'............. 21 on 44%

95' Johnson............ 21 on 48%
95' Pippen.............. 16 on 42%

96' Penny............... 26 on 47%
96' Pippen.............. 19 on 45%

96' Kemp............... 23 on 50%
96' Schrempf.......... 16 on 50% (3rd option)
96' Pippen.............. 16 on 34%

97' Howard............. 19 on 46%
97' Murray.............. 18 on 57% (4th option)
97' Pippen.............. 17 on 39%

97' Malone'............. 24 on 44%
97' Pippen.............. 19 on 42%

98' Rice.................. 23 on 44%
98' Pippen'.............. 18 on 44%

98' Malone'.............. 25 on 50%
98' Pippen............... 16 on 41%

99' Rice.................. 18 on 55% (3rd option)
99' Pippen'.............. 18 on 32%

91' Worthy'.............. 19 on 47% (injured)
91' Pippen............... 20 on 50%



^^^ Pippen was usually outscored by opposing forwards, so the only guys that Pippen occasionally outscored were guards that were underperforming against MJ, such as Starks, Dumars, Miller or Stockton.

Pippen's scoring deficit to opposing forwards was accompanied by worst-ever efficiency and massive lane-clogging/bricklaying, zero clutch or production in high-leverage minutes, and low peak capability (not on scouting report according to Shaq - pip was mostly a transition player).. Pippen simply couldn't compete on the same level as the best players in the league (Barkley, Malone, etc) - there were zero promos that said "Big forward matchup Pippen vs Barkley" because no one thought Pippen was on that top level.. See the numbers above that prove Pippen couldn't compete with the top players in the league and was usually outplayed by opposing forwards or long wings.. So Pippen was usually outplayed by opposing forwards, while Lebron's sidekicks outplay league MVP's like Curry, Dirk and Jokic.. Lebron is actually the only player in history that had sidekicks outplay league MVP's or guys that won MVP and it happened 3 times.

[AussieSteve]

Aussie Steve really lost the plot. This man just called pippen a top 5 offensive player in the 90s. Thats an amazingly ridiculous assertion that no metric big or small or eye test could come even remotely close to supporting. This is precisely why 3ball does what he does.

You're right. I don't actually think that. He was never a top 5 offensive player. Possibly not top 10.

But he was certainly top 5 overall. It's pretty much irrefutable.

I'm really just trying to get a reaction. I'd just like a straight answer to the question of, if Pip was actually trash, why he got so overrated and why no one else in history was overrated anywhere near as much.

And it has nothing to do with an 'unprecedented winning spotlight', because he was 6th in All-NBA voting and 9th in MVP voting in 92. After only 1 ring.

[AussieSteve]

yes this is true - once MJ finally got through the Bad Boys and then won the Magic vs Michael dream matchup, everyone knew that he would not be stopped from that point forward - if you were there, you would understand how long MJ labored to get past the Bad Boys - the goat cutting-of-teeth path and convincing breakthrough signaled a changing of the guard because even though Bird & Magic had been great, their day was over and it was clear that MJ was taking the competition to a whole new level.. Everyone knew we were in for a long ride.. The winning spotlight that followed was unprecedented and Pippen was the biggest beneficiary, but not because anyone paid attention to him - it was the fact that his performance WASN'T paid attention to - he was blindly given awards just because he was sidekick on a goat-winning team despite frequently wetting the bed and generally being a low-producer compared to the accolades he received..

It's important to note that a big part of the reason for Pippen's massive inflation is that the Bulls are the first and only 2-star dynasty, while every other dynasty had MANY all-stars - so unlike Parish, Worthy or Parker, Pippen doesn't have to share shine with 3rd and 4th stars and is viewed as bigger than them by being a 2-star dynasty - but the reality is that Pippen's production was ordinary, while MJ's goat production carried the load and allowed a 2-star dynasty.

You're pretty much saying "once Bird, Magic and the Pistons were past their primes, the rest of the league was trash and everyone knew it would be a cake walk for the Bulls"

[sdot_thadon]

You're pretty much saying "once Bird, Magic and the Pistons were past their primes, the rest of the league was trash and everyone knew it would be a cake walk for the Bulls"

You are killing this thread lol. And every zombie post version of it he comes back with.

[SATAN]

Reggie
Payton
Kemp
Stockton
KJ

who were all better as well

:oldlol:

[SATAN]

You're pretty much saying "once Bird, Magic and the Pistons were past their primes, the rest of the league was trash and everyone knew it would be a cake walk for the Bulls"

Bingo.

[3ba11]

You're pretty much saying "once Bird, Magic and the Pistons were past their primes, the rest of the league was trash and everyone knew it would be a cake walk for the Bulls"


What players in history have been considered "past their primes" after finishing runner-up for MVP at 31 years old like Magic in 1991, or a Big 3 that was 27-29 years old like Isiah, Dumars and Rodman were in 1991?

Again, what players or teams in NBA history were considered "past their prime" under these circumstances

See how dumb your responses are to my facts?.. you're obviously on the wrong side here because your comebacks are ignorant and thoughtless

And yes, the Bulls were the biggest deal that the NBA had ever seen after they won the title in 1991 and appeared to be an unstoppable juggernaut led by the apparent GOAT - it was next level shit that no one had ever seen before, so everyone knew that Jordan would be on top for a long time - no one had ever seen Magic so obviously inferior to another basketball player.. it was next-level shit, jence the unprecedented hype and winning spotlight that Pippen benefitted from.. He should never have been all-nba or maybe get 1 like larry Nance or Detlef Schrempf or Mason or Mashburn - that was his caliber but the unprecedented hype alongside the GOAT allowed the media to blindly give him accolades that his performance didn't justify.

[SATAN]

He must be so mad right now lolol

[AussieSteve]

What players in history have been considered "past their primes" after finishing runner-up for MVP at 31 years old like Magic in 1991, or a Big 3 that was 27-29 years old like Isiah, Dumars and Rodman were in 1991?

Again, what players or teams in NBA history were considered "past their prime" under these circumstances

See how dumb your responses are to my facts?.. you're obviously on the wrong side here because your comebacks are ignorant and thoughtless



Magic literally retired with HIV after the '91 season. I'd say he was past his prime at that point. :lol

The Pistons lost in the first round, then missed the playoffs all together the next two seasons. I'd say they were past their prime too.

Who's being dumb and thoughtless?... You think Pippen's '92 All NBA selection, which came before they'd won even 2 rings, was awarded because of the Bulls' unprecedented 2x three-peat success. :facepalm

[NBAGOAT]

Magic literally retired with HIV after the '91 season. I'd say he was past his prime at that point. :lol

The Pistons lost in the first round, then missed the playoffs all together the next two seasons. I'd say they were past their prime too.

Who's being dumb and thoughtless?... You think Pippen's '92 All NBA selection, which came before they'd won even 2 rings, was awarded because of the Bulls' unprecedented 2x three-peat success. :facepalm

no forum in the world you're going see more logical inconsistencies being used than here.

[NBAGOAT]

.
Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............ 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............ 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts


TLDR: Klay has a far lower production rate than Jeff Hornacek, who has a far lower production rate than Reggie Miller.. #levelstothis






Klay benefitted from the surprise factor of the 3-point boom and the Warriors coming out of nowhere in 2015, but he's infact a low-producer (see the stats above).

So he wouldn't be a 2nd option or All-NBA on any other contender, or outside the optimal system that he grew up in, or alongside a weaker 1st option that needs more scoring help.. The weak production of Klay and Pippen meant that it didn't take much to supplant them as 2nd option as we saw in 2022 with "bum" Andrew Wiggins, or as we saw when Kukoc frequently took over the 2nd-scorer role for the Bulls (Kukoc led Bulls in 4th quarter & clutch scoring for 98' Playoffs, aside from MJ)..

So it took nothing to supplant these guys as 2nd option and they could only be 2nd option alongside MJ-level scorers like MJ himself or MVP Curry.. These goat 1st options could win with a non-elite 2nd option scorer and no 3rd scoring option.. The lack of 3rd scoring option to compete for spotlight with further inflated Pippen or Klay versus guys like Worthy or Parish, who competed with numerous all-star teammates.






Klay's accolades are less because he had less winning spotlight by only being carried to 4 chips instead of 6 and 2 three-peats like Pip, while Pip also played alongside the GOAT to increase the spotlight further.. Pip had unprecedented winning spotlight, so his inflation is unprecedented (most overrated player ever).






Pippen is the only guy to get inflated to the extent that he did - he's the most overrated player like I've said many times.. He was inflated more than anyone else because his winning spotlight was unprecedented by 2 three-peats in the modern/TV era alongside the GOAT.

I'll only address the klay stuff since it's comical too. You have no evidence klay wouldnt be all-nba on any other contender. it was a common argument back then he could replicate what reggie miller did back then(i slightly disagreed) and could score 25ppg+. Hornacek is pretty underrated and maybe shouldve had a few more all star appearances but prime klay always had a significant edge on defense vs him.

Wiggins supplanted him when he was post acl and achilles surgery but first the 22 warriors are not on the lvl of the 15-16 warriors, it's not an indictment on klay when he was a 2nd option on a clearly better team. Wiggins not a bum either obviously transformed his game in gs became a great 2 way wing. Also, the warriors had 3 of those 3rd options in wiggins, klay, and poole and dray was still all star lvl. the 15/16 teams was not nearly as deep with scoring, klay was crucial there. It absolutely took something to supplant klay as 2nd option.

Klay's lack of all-nba selections have nothing to do with winning spotlight. They won 3 rings where klay didnt make any all-nba teams. His injuries were number one reason as he declined earlier than he shouldve. Also impact went down but yea a scorers impact is going go down on offense when your team adds kevin durant and you go from 2nd option to 3rd. Like Aussie says it's comical you think klay's all-nba selections in 15 and 16 have to do with gs being a perennial winner when no one knew they were going be one. Finally comical to say klay had no one to compete with for accolades when he played with draymond green in 15/16 who has as many all-nba teams as he does and is by consensus considered the actual 2nd best player on those teams.

Jamal murray should be getting accolades last year and this year by your argument. he's the 2nd option to a curry lvl offensive great and denver obviously is the most likely team to become a dynasty rn with the age of their core and he doesnt have a great 3rd option to steal his credit. jamal doesnt even have an all star appearance however and wont be making it this year either, why? He just doesnt play well enough during the regular season and the winning spotlight isnt nearly enough of a reason to make up for it. You do realize all-nba is given only based on the regular season and voters are not dumb enough to weigh previous years heavily when giving out the award(or lebron would be 1st team all-nba every year).

[AussieSteve]

I'll only address the klay stuff since it's comical too. You have no evidence klay wouldnt be all-nba on any other contender. it was a common argument back then he could replicate what reggie miller did back then(i slightly disagreed) and could score 25ppg+. Hornacek is pretty underrated and maybe shouldve had a few more all star appearances but prime klay always had a significant edge on defense vs him.

Wiggins supplanted him when he was post acl and achilles surgery but first the 22 warriors are not on the lvl of the 15-16 warriors, it's not an indictment on klay when he was a 2nd option on a clearly better team. Wiggins not a bum either obviously transformed his game in gs became a great 2 way wing. Also, the warriors had 3 of those 3rd options in wiggins, klay, and poole and dray was still all star lvl. the 15/16 teams was not nearly as deep with scoring, klay was crucial there. It absolutely took something to supplant klay as 2nd option.

Klay's lack of all-nba selections have nothing to do with winning spotlight. They won 3 rings where klay didnt make any all-nba teams. His injuries were number one reason as he declined earlier than he shouldve. Also impact went down but yea a scorers impact is going go down on offense when your team adds kevin durant and you go from 2nd option to 3rd. Like Aussie says it's comical you think klay's all-nba selections in 15 and 16 have to do with gs being a perennial winner when no one knew they were going be one. Finally comical to say klay had no one to compete with for accolades when he played with draymond green in 15/16 who has as many all-nba teams as he does and is by consensus considered the actual 2nd best player on those teams.

Jamal murray should be getting accolades last year and this year by your argument. he's the 2nd option to a curry lvl offensive great and denver obviously is the most likely team to become a dynasty rn with the age of their core and he doesnt have a great 3rd option to steal his credit. jamal doesnt even have an all star appearance however and wont be making it this year either, why? He just doesnt play well enough during the regular season and the winning spotlight isnt nearly enough of a reason to make up for it. You do realize all-nba is given only based on the regular season and voters are not dumb enough to weigh previous years heavily when giving out the award(or lebron would be 1st team all-nba every year).

He only brought up Klay because I asked if anyone else in history benefited from the 'winning spotlight' in the same way that Pippen did, to receive multiple undeserved accolades... he nominated Klay.

Then when I pointed out that
A) Klay never even made an NBA 2nd team, while Pip made 3 firsts, and
B) Klay got his accolades before the Warriors were a dynasty and won no All NBAs after their 2nd ring

He backpeddled, arguing that Klay wasn't that good and the Warriors dynasty wasn't as good as the Bulls, so the spotlight wasn't as bright. Hence the no accolades.

Which brings us back to the initial question... was there anyone else in history that won accolades like Pip did because of the winning spotlight? I think the answer from 3ball is no. It was only Pippen.

Some people are just blind to their own idiocy I suppose.