Poll regarding sidekicks - serious votes only

[3ba11]

.
All-time rankings


PER

4. AD
24. Wade
34. Kyrie
140. Pippen


WS/48

17. AD
72. Kyrie
77. Wade
139. Pippen


BPM

10. AD
25. Wade
34. Kyrie
36. Pippen

[Xiao Yao You]

I'd vote but AD has been this guy since I was 10

https://cdn.nba.com/manage/2021/08/adrian-dantley-iso-celtics-archive-1568x882.jpg

[Akeem34TheDream]

Who tf thinks Pippen was better than Wade or A.Davis?

[lxlHoTsAuSelxl]

Best sidekick, hands down Steph. Best 2a 2b sidekick Klay and Draymond, best Finals sidekick Iggy.

[Lebron23]

1-9

[AussieSteve]

This poll is irrelevant and misleading.

Do a poll of Pippen vs Jordan's opponents' sidekicks. That's what actually matters.

Pick the top players form Jordan's era (eg. Barkley, Hakeem, DRob, Malone, Drexler during the 1st 3peat) and ask us to rate Pip vs their sidekicks.

[3ba11]

This poll is irrelevant and misleading.

Do a poll of Pippen vs Jordan's opponents' sidekicks. That's what actually matters.

Pick the top players form Jordan's era (eg. Barkley, Hakeem, DRob, Malone, Drexler during the 1st 3peat) and ask us to rate Pip vs their sidekicks.


Every notable sidekick in the 90's was a "1b" that frequently led their team in the playoffs with elite stats, while Pippen never achieved elite stats or led the Bulls alongside MJ:



* In the 92' WCF, Terry Porter averaged 26 points and 8 assists with 53% shooting from 3 (6 attempts) to carry the Blazers to the Finals.. He had these same numbers in the 2nd Round as well against Phoenix and had better numbers for the 90' and 92' Finals runs than Pippen ever had.

* In 94' and 95', KJ averaged 28 points and 9 assists in 2 different 7-game series against Hakeem, while Barkley was 2nd option and underperformed - Barkley's underperformance is the only reason the Suns lost twice in 7 games - the Suns were supposed to win the title those years because KJ was healthy.

* Kemp and Payton alternated each series in achieving elite stats and leading the team - a true 1a and 1b tandem - both destroyed Pippen in the 96' Finals and routinely got 20/10, which Pippen never did.. Payton was a superior scorer, passer, and defender with more accolades (all-nba and all-defense)

* Worthy averaged 30 on 62% in the 87' WCF to lead the Lakers to the Finals - he led the Lakers in playoff scoring every year from 87-91'

* X-Man led the 87' Sonics to the WCF as 1st option and averaged 25/9/4 against the Lakers, and then the old version of X-Man destroyed Pippen in the 92' ECSF

* Kevin Willis and Dominique both destroyed Pippen in the 93' Playoffs

* Stockton led the Jazz to the 97' Finals by averaging 22/11 and hitting the historic series walk-off in Barkley's face


^^^^ Pippen is the only notable sidekick that doesn't have these kind of elite, dominant performances as a sidekick, while every other notable sidekick has these dominant performances because they were go-to players with elite scoring ability and Pippen is the only sidekick that was just a transition dunker/athlete.

[StrongLurk]

Pippen outperformed other "sidekicks" more times than not with the Bulls in the 90's.

OP is correct, Pippen is a little overrated and the 90's Bulls teams would win only 2, maybe 3 rings in the NBA post 2006. Jordan was lucky to play when he did, though he is still the GOAT.

[3ba11]

Pippen outperformed other "sidekicks" more times than not with the Bulls in the 90's.




.

The only guys that Pippen occasionally outscored (with worst-ever efficiency and clutch) were opposing guards that were underperforming against MJ like Dumars or Starks, but otherwise Pippen was DESTROYED by opposing forwards and long wings, as shown below:



92' X-Man'............. 19 on 50% (3rd option)
92' Pippen............. 16 on 40%

92' Drexler............. 25 on 41%
92' Pippen'............. 21 on 48%

93' Dominique........ 30 on 44%
93' Willis'............... 18 on 44%
93' Pippen.............. 15 on 33%

93' Barkley............. 25 on 50%
93' Pippen.............. 20 on 43%

93' Dumas............. 16 on 57% (4th option)
93' Pippen'............. 21 on 44%

95' Johnson............ 21 on 48%
95' Pippen.............. 16 on 42%

96' Penny............... 26 on 47%
96' Pippen.............. 19 on 45%

96' Kemp............... 23 on 50%
96' Schrempf.......... 16 on 50% (3rd option)
96' Pippen.............. 16 on 34%

97' Howard............. 19 on 46%
97' Murray.............. 18 on 57% (4th option)
97' Pippen.............. 17 on 39%

97' Malone'............. 24 on 44%
97' Pippen.............. 19 on 42%

98' Rice.................. 23 on 44%
98' Pippen'.............. 18 on 44%

98' Malone'.............. 25 on 50%
98' Pippen............... 16 on 41%

99' Rice.................. 18 on 55% (3rd option)
99' Pippen'.............. 18 on 32%

91' Worthy'.............. 19 on 47% (injured)
91' Pippen............... 20 on 50%



^^^ Pippen was usually outscored by opposing forwards, so the only guys that Pippen occasionally outscored were guards that were underperforming against MJ, such as Starks, Dumars, Miller or Stockton.

Pippen's scoring deficit to opposing forwards was accompanied by worst-ever efficiency and massive lane-clogging/bricklaying, zero clutch or production in high-leverage minutes, and low peak capability (not on scouting report according to Shaq - pip was mostly a transition player)..

Pippen simply couldn't compete on the same level as the best players in the league (Barkley, Malone, etc) - there were zero promos that said "Big forward matchup Pippen vs Barkley" because no one thought Pippen was on that top level.. See the numbers above that prove Pippen couldn't compete with the top players in the league and was usually outplayed by opposing forwards or long wings.. So Pippen was usually outplayed by opposing forwards, while Lebron's sidekicks outplay league MVP's like Curry, Dirk and Jokic.. Lebron is actually the only player in history that had sidekicks outplay league MVP's or guys that won MVP and it happened 3 times.

[AussieSteve]

Every notable sidekick in the 90's was a "1b" that frequently led their team in the playoffs with elite stats, while Pippen never achieved elite stats or led the Bulls alongside MJ:



* In the 92' WCF, Terry Porter averaged 26 points and 8 assists with 53% shooting from 3 (6 attempts) to carry the Blazers to the Finals.. He had these same numbers in the 2nd Round as well against Phoenix and had better numbers for the 90' and 92' Finals runs than Pippen ever had.

* In 94' and 95', KJ averaged 28 points and 9 assists in 2 different 7-game series against Hakeem, while Barkley was 2nd option and underperformed - Barkley's underperformance is the only reason the Suns lost twice in 7 games - the Suns were supposed to win the title those years because KJ was healthy.

* Kemp and Payton alternated each series in achieving elite stats and leading the team - a true 1a and 1b tandem - both destroyed Pippen in the 96' Finals and routinely got 20/10, which Pippen never did.. Payton was a superior scorer, passer, and defender with more accolades (all-nba and all-defense)

* Worthy averaged 30 on 62% in the 87' WCF to lead the Lakers to the Finals - he led the Lakers in playoff scoring every year from 87-91'

* X-Man led the 87' Sonics to the WCF as 1st option and averaged 25/9/4 against the Lakers, and then the old version of X-Man destroyed Pippen in the 92' ECSF

* Kevin Willis and Dominique both destroyed Pippen in the 93' Playoffs

* Stockton led the Jazz to the 97' Finals by averaging 22/11 and hitting the historic series walk-off in Barkley's face


^^^^ Pippen is the only notable sidekick that doesn't have these kind of elite, dominant performances as a sidekick, while every other notable sidekick has these dominant performances because they were go-to players with elite scoring ability and Pippen is the only sidekick that wasn't.

So make the poll then.

[3ba11]

So make the poll then.


No because people just go by accolades and as we've discussed previously, Pippen's accolades are a result of unprecedented winning spotlight

his production rate stats like PER or WS say that he's about 140th all-time, but the winning spotlight inflated him to top 30.. aka the most overrated player ever.

ultimately, every notable 90's sidekick was infact a "1b" that achieved elite stats in big series frequently led the team, while Pippen is the only sidekick that was just a transition player/dunker and otherwise weak in the halfcourt compared to other sidekicks.

Heck, every 90's 1st option had all-time floor generals at sidekick that averaged 10 apg (Stockton, payton, kj, hardaway), while MJ had to toil away with Pippen's 5 assists .. pippen had the worst passing, efficiency, clutch, spacing and peak capability of any notable 90's sidekick (shaq said he wasn't on scouting report)

[Wardell Curry]

his production rate stats like PER or WS say that he's about 140th all-time, but the winning spotlight inflated him to top 30.. aka the most overrated player ever.


LeBron >>>> Jordan all time in WS.
Jordan barely > LeBron all time in PER.

Therefore, LeBron >> Jordan.

[3ba11]

LeBron >>>> Jordan all time in WS.
Jordan barely > LeBron all time in PER.

Therefore, LeBron >> Jordan.


WS is a function of games played, so WS per 48 is the stat to use, where MJ's is higher of course.

Overall, MJ has higher PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, plus/minus, raptor, usage (possessions used) and ORTG (efficiency on those possessions)

there's no statistical case for bron except bs longevity (playing at a lower level for longer)

[Wardell Curry]

WS is a function of games played, so WS per 48 is the stat to use, where MJ's is higher of course.

Overall, MJ has higher PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, plus/minus, raptor, usage (possessions used) and ORTG (efficiency on those possessions)

there's no statistical case for bron except bs longevity (playing at a lower level for longer)


If longevity doesn't matter, we can boil this down all the way to absolute peak aka absolute peak game.

Therefore, Wilt is the GOAT.

[Wardell Curry]

Also Joel Embiid has a higher PER than Jordan. Just simply better.

[Xiao Yao You]

Also Joel Embiid has a higher PER than Jordan. Just simply better.

good thing winning isn't taken in to account! :roll:

[Wardell Curry]

Also since we're just looking at peak and longevity doesn't matter, forget about an entire game. Let's just look at one play.

Who has a more impressive play in NBA history than Curry in OKC? GOAT confirmed?

[Wardell Curry]

Jokes and trolling aside, of course longevity matters in all debates. Career rankings are overwhelmingly based on longevity. If they weren't, as an example, Shaquille O'Neal is probably the greatest of all time, as I'd take 2000 O'Neal versus anyone for basically anything.

Do any of us actually know the answer to this question?

I think Jordan was a better ceiling raiser than LeBron.
I think LeBron was a better floor raiser than Jordan.

I think Jordan was better, but it's not such a clear thing that the discussion isn't worth ever having. However, no matter which direction you fall, it's definitely not a conversation worth having 12,677 times.

[NBAGOAT]

all these rate stats get weighed down by post prime years. why you cant directly compare say jordan to jokic right now who are basically even in all 3 categories lol.

[3ba11]

.
Jordan would never have a weak 50-win team and the "the worst Finals team ever" with an all-star center teammate and this acquisition:\



05' HUGHES..... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP... 22/6/5.. 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN....... 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP... 16/6/5.. No All-D







I think Jordan was a better ceiling raiser than LeBron.
I think LeBron was a better floor raiser than Jordan.





Help needed to win 40 games

2005 Lebron....... all-star center
1987 Jordan....... nothing


Help needed to win 50 games

2006 Lebron....... all-star center.. HOF coach.. 22/5/5 all-defender acquisition (better than 90' Pip across the board)
1988 Jordan....... nothing


People forget that rookie Jordan was thrown into the playoffs with 8 seeds, while Lebron got 3 years to develop a favored, high seed before entering the 2006 Playoffs - so people mistakenly compare Lebron's Year 3 high seeds to Jordan's rookie 8 seeds.. The reality is that prime Lebron was excused for being lottery in 2019, while rookie Jordan is knocked for losing in the 1st Round.

[AussieSteve]

No because people just go by accolades and as we've discussed previously, Pippen's accolades are a result of unprecedented winning spotlight

his production rate stats like PER or WS say that he's about 140th all-time, but the winning spotlight inflated him to top 30.. aka the most overrated player ever.

ultimately, every notable 90's sidekick was infact a "1b" that achieved elite stats in big series frequently led the team, while Pippen is the only sidekick that was just a transition player/dunker and otherwise weak in the halfcourt compared to other sidekicks.

Heck, every 90's 1st option had all-time floor generals at sidekick that averaged 10 apg (Stockton, payton, kj, hardaway), while MJ had to toil away with Pippen's 5 assists .. pippen had the worst passing, efficiency, clutch, spacing and peak capability of any notable 90's sidekick (shaq said he wasn't on scouting report)

By 1992, Pip won the 6th most All NBA votes in the league. And was 1st team all defence.

Meanwhile, the 2nd best player on Barkley's team was Hersey Hawkins. Hakeem's number 2 was who? Otis Thorpe?

You know the truth. Come to the light.

[3ba11]

By 1992, Pip won the 6th most All NBA votes in the league. And was 1st team all defence.

Meanwhile, the 2nd best player on Barkley's team was Hersey Hawkins. Hakeem's number 2 was who? Otis Thorpe?

You know the truth. Come to the light.


Unprecedented winning spotlight - that's all

Is Blake Griffin top 30 all-time?... Because he was #3 for MVP too.. Tons of bums were and Pippen is one of them.

When did Pippen upset Magic Johnson to make the conference finals like KJ did in 1990?... When did Pippen average 28 and 9 assists like KJ did against the champion Hakeem in 2 different 7 game series?
'
When did MJ get help like that?

When did MJ get 20/10 from his sidekick like Payton or Kemp got from each other?

When did MJ get 10 APG from his sidekick like Alonzo, Barkley or Malone got?

When did MJ get 25-30 ppg from his sidekick to win critical WCF series like Drexler or Magic got?

When did MJ get great scoring help? MJ had weak scoring help AND weak passing help.. Pippen was just a transition player and dunker - he was the worst scorer and passer among notable 90's sidekicks.. worst efficiency and clutch too - completely unavailable in 4th and down the stretch of games.

[AussieSteve]

Is Blake Griffin top 30 all-time?... Because he was #3 for MVP too.. Tons of bums were and Pippen is one of them.

When did Pippen upset Magic Johnson to make the conference finals like KJ did in 1990?... When did Pippen average 28 and 9 assists like KJ did against the champion Hakeem in 2 different 7 game series?
'
When did MJ get help like that?

When did MJ get 20/10 from his sidekick like Payton or Kemp got from each other?

When did MJ get 10 APG from his sidekick like Alonzo, Barkley or Malone got?

When did MJ get 25-30 ppg from his sidekick to win critical WCF series like Drexler or Magic got?

When did MJ get great scoring help? MJ had weak scoring help AND weak passing help.. Pippen was just a transition player and dunker - he was the worst scorer and passer among notable 90's sidekicks.. worst efficiency and clutch too - completely unavailable in 4th and down the stretch of games.

How many all stars were on that Suns team that upset Magic? Was it just KJ? Or were there multiple others?

Go on. Make the poll.

Who was better during MJs first 3 peat?
- Pippen
- Hawkins
- Thorpe
- Starks
- whoever DRobs #2 was

That'll do. That probably covers the top 5 players in the era.

[SouBeachTalents]

The Bulls are MUCH worse with Kyrie in Pippen’s place. The fact OP doesn’t understand this exposes his total lack of basketball comprehension. He just drones on about ppg like a mouth breather.

[tpols]

This poll is irrelevant and misleading.

Do a poll of Pippen vs Jordan's opponents' sidekicks. That's what actually matters.

Pick the top players form Jordan's era (eg. Barkley, Hakeem, DRob, Malone, Drexler during the 1st 3peat) and ask us to rate Pip vs their sidekicks.


Clyde in the '95 playoffs had as good a run as Pippen ever did. Youre a Barkley Fan... go look up the ORTG and productions.

Stockton had multiple playoff runs as good or better than Pippens best.

Kevin Johnson used to knock off Magic without Barkley even being there.

Kemp destroyed Pippen H2H as 2nd options in the 1996 playoffs H2H.

And that's not even mentioning guys like thunder Dan, X-man, and rik Smits out playing him as 2nd and even 3rd options.

Shit, Terry Porters WCFs from the early 90s were as good as anything Scottie ever produced.



I really wish we had a crystal ball to see pippen outside the Bulls dynasty... there's simply never been somebody who benefitted more from the winning spotlight.

[Manny98]

1. AD
2. Wade
3. Kyrie
4. Pippen

[tpols]

The Bulls are MUCH worse with Kyrie in Pippen’s place. The fact OP doesn’t understand this exposes his total lack of basketball comprehension. He just drones on about ppg like a mouth breather.

Yes and nobody has kyrie as a top 25 GOAT ahead of guys like Barkley and David Robinson how Pippen is ranked in the media lists. Even though at his peak ability kyrie could take over basketball games more than pippen ever could ie outplaying a UMVP head to head. Pippen never once came close to doing that.

[3ba11]

How many all stars were on that Suns team that upset Magic? Was it just KJ? Or were there multiple others?

Go on. Make the poll.

Who was better during MJs first 3 peat?
- Pippen
- Hawkins
- Thorpe
- Starts
- whoever DRobs #2 was

That'll do. That probably covers the top 5 players in the era.


Dumars was 2nd team defense in 1991 just like Pippen, except Dumars was also All-NBA, while Pippen wasn't even an all-star.. Dumars peak was 91-93'

So that's 1 guy so far.

Similarly, Worthy was All-NBA in 1991, while Pippen wasn't even an all-star.

That's 2 guys.

Terry Porter carried the Blazers to the 92' Finals by playing better than Damian Lillard ever played - that's obviously better than Pippen ever played too.. Porter simply underperformed against MJ in the Finals (his scoring drooped from 26 to 16), and this kind of underperformance is similar to nearly every guard that faced MJ.

That's 3 guys..

Larry Nance was basically the same player as Pippen and equal to Pippen during that time - we can bring up the numbers if you want from the early 90's - Nance averaged 2.3 blocks for his career and was perennial all-defense.. He also shared spotlight with a "big 4" of scorers and/or all-stars - Daughtery, Price, Nance and Harper were all good scorers, so that reduced Nance's offense a bit but it was still equal to Pippen's during that time.

that's just off the top of my head...

of course, X-Man destroyed Pippen in the 92' ECSF and already led a team to the 87' WCF with 25/9/4 against Magic's Lakers (better than Pippen ever played).

So Pippen is just overrated and you have to go by his actual performance, not his accolades which were given due to unprecedented winning spotlight.

[3ba11]

.
1991-1993

Larry Nance........... 20.6 PER... 0.183 WS/48.. 4.2 BPM.. 17.6 ppg... 8.5 rpg... 2.9 apg... 1.4 tov.. 2.7 blk
Scottie Pippen........ 20.4 PER... 0.168 WS/48.. 5.3 BPM.. 19.1 ppg... 7.5 rpg... 6.5 apg... 3.0 tov.. 1.1 blk


^^^ pretty equal but Nance beats him in career averages and production rate stats like PER, WS, etc

Btw, I could've used Mark Price or Brad Daughtery as the Cavs had SEVERAL guys that compared to or exceeded Pippen...

The Cavs simply had a better roster than the Bulls, as did the Pistons (3x all-stars at every starting spot), while the Knicks had 4 guys that were equal or better than Horace Grant (Mark Jackson, X-Man, Mason, Oakley), in addition to Ewing and Starks, aka a far superior roster.. people forget that Starks was 20/5/5 and all-defense

[AussieSteve]

.
1991-1993

Larry Nance........... 20.6 PER... 0.183 WS/48.. 4.2 BPM.. 17.6 ppg... 8.5 rpg... 2.9 apg... 1.4 tov.. 2.7 blk
Scottie Pippen........ 20.4 PER... 0.168 WS/48.. 5.3 BPM.. 19.1 ppg... 7.5 rpg... 6.5 apg... 3.0 tov.. 1.1 blk


^^^ pretty equal but Nance beats him in career averages and production rate stats like PER, WS, etc

Btw, I could've used Mark Price or Brad Daughtery as the Cavs had SEVERAL guys that compared to or exceeded Pippen...

The Cavs simply had a better roster than the Bulls, as did the Pistons (3x all-stars at every starting spot), while the Knicks had 4 guys that were equal or better than Horace Grant (Mark Jackson, X-Man, Mason, Oakley), in addition to Ewing and Starks, aka a far superior roster.. people forget that Starks was 20/5/5 and all-defense

Do you want me to make the poll for you if you're afraid?

Let's pick the top 5 players in the league in, say, 1992 and vote on who had the best sidekick.

Side kicks of players outside the top 5 don't matter, because we want to compare the competition of the elite players in the league.

Shall I post it or will you? It'll get more attention if you do, so I think you should.

[PeroAntic]

They're equally good. Only Kyrie is lower tier

[John8204]

Value
1. Wade
2. Pippen
3. Davis
4. Kyrie

Talent
1. Kyrie
2. Pippen
3. Wade
4. AD

[Bacchus]

Pippen lost in the first round of the playoffs playing with Hakeem in Barkley. The previous year with Jordan he won the title

[SATAN]

This is why I don't take MJ stans seriously. They all too often disregard context or are disingenuous with their points. And many of them don't even watch basketball.

[John8204]

Pippen lost in the first round of the playoffs playing with Hakeem in Barkley. The previous year with Jordan he won the title

Pippen also was in the mix to win a chip in Portland but shady officiating cost him a legacy turning victory.

Jordan also flopped with an early 30's MVP caliber all timer in George Gervin....and then at the end of his career couldn't even make the playoffs with a bluechip 30 PPG guy in Jerry Stackhouse.

The truth that Jordan fans hate to admit is...it was very hard to win with MJ. You had to be a special type of player and person to play with MJ.

[sdot_thadon]

.
Jordan would never have a weak 50-win team and the "the worst Finals team ever" with an all-star center teammate and this acquisition:\



05' HUGHES..... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP... 22/6/5.. 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN....... 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP... 16/6/5.. No All-D






Help needed to win 40 games

2005 Lebron....... all-star center
1987 Jordan....... nothing


Help needed to win 50 games

2006 Lebron....... all-star center.. HOF coach.. 22/5/5 all-defender acquisition (better than 90' Pip across the board)
1988 Jordan....... nothing


People forget that rookie Jordan was thrown into the playoffs with 8 seeds, while Lebron got 3 years to develop a favored, high seed before entering the 2006 Playoffs - so people mistakenly compare Lebron's Year 3 high seeds to Jordan's rookie 8 seeds.. The reality is that prime Lebron was excused for being lottery in 2019, while rookie Jordan is knocked for losing in the 1st Round.

Mj had Hughes before Lebron did in the worst ever version of the conference and missed the playoffs.....

[iamgine]

Better as player or sidekick? Like AD could be better as a player but he's inconsistent and often injured. A sidekick need to complement the star. Dwight Howard was a tremendous player but he didn't complement Kobe as well as, say, Draymond complement Curry.

[AussieSteve]

@3ball. This here is a much more relevant poll if you want to gauge people's sentiment regarding how good Pippen was. Comparing him to the sidekicks of Jordan's top rivals during his first 3peat.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?515376-Poll-regarding-sidekicks-serious-votes-only

[8Ball]

Another thread backfire. :lol

[ArbitraryWater]

Who tf thinks Pippen was better than Wade or A.Davis?

Anyone with a brain thinks Pippen the sidekick was better than Wade the sidekick

[SouBeachTalents]

Anyone with a brain thinks Pippen the sidekick was better than Wade the sidekick
Who do you think was better between Pippen & 2012 Wade specifically.

[3ba11]

Who do you think was better between Pippen & 2012 Wade specifically.


Do you realize that Wade had to step aside in 2012 to allow Lebron to take over the team after leading the team in the 2011 Playoffs?

On what planet would any version of Pippen need to "step aside" for any top 1st option, let alone Lebron, or lead Lebron for any playoff run like Wade in 2011?

Wade was a Kobe-level player and far superior to Kobe in 2010 or 2011 as the stats show.. He needed to step aside in 2012, so his numbers were down slightly but still top 5 in everything with a level of stats that Pippen never had, aka 26 PER and top 5 in everything (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP).

And when we look at the 2012 Finals, we see that Wade was within 5 ppg of Lebron with 23 ppg - that's more than Pippen ever averaged in the Finals, while Pippen was also carried in the scoring column and never faced Wade's level of defensive attention..

2013 was the first year that Wade dipped into Pippen territory with 20/5/5 on bad efficiency in the Finals (standard pippen-caliber).. Wade maintained this caliber in the 2014 ECF (near-equal-scoring partner to Lebron) and then 2015 and 2016 all-star seasons (21/5/5).

[3ba11]

.

1st options in Playoffs


92' LEWIS....... 28/4/4.. 57.0 ts.. 23.8 PER.. 0.177 ws.. 4.1 dbpm.. 2.6 obpm.. 6.8 bpm.. 0.9 vorp
94' PIPPEN...... 23/8/5.. 52.1 ts.. 22.8 PER.. 0.149 ws.. 4.0 dbpm.. 1.6 obpm.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.7 vorp


1992 ECSF

X-Man............ 19 on 50%
Pippen'........... 16 on 40%


^^^ Pippen's poor performance caused the series to go 7 games just like the 1990 ECF or 1998 ECF

anytime a series was close or lost, it was Pippen's poor play that caused it and this includes some close 6-game series like the 96-98' Finals or 93' Finals (46% ts)




@3ball. This here is a much more relevant poll if you want to gauge people's sentiment regarding how good Pippen was. Comparing him to the sidekicks of Jordan's top rivals during his first 3peat.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?515376-Poll-regarding-sidekicks-serious-votes-only


your thread is flawed by assuming that only 6 first options were better than Pippen.. Many other 1st options were better than Pippen such as Mullin, KJ, Coleman, or Lewis (see stats above), while many 2nd options or opposing forwards had equal or better performance but didn't get accolades because they lacked Pippen's winning spotlight..

Pippen was usually outscored his opposing forward matchup (Schrempf, Rice, X-Man, Dominique, etc, etc, etc) and the only guys that he outscored were opposing guards that were underperforming against MJ (Starks, Porter, KJ, etc).

So again, your thread is based on winning spotlight, aka the media voting - no one benefitted from the winning spotlight more than Pippen, who got accolades once he started winning titles alongside the apparent GOAT - this winning spotlight gave him the benefit of the doubt, aka the media automatically voted for him without really looking at his performance (see stats above "Lewis vs Pippen".. or "X-Man vs Pippen").

So your thread is based on winning spotlight (media), while this thread is based on the actual numbers and performance (see the OP or the numbers above or earlier post that summarized pippen getting demolished by opposing forwards (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?515363-Poll-regarding-sidekicks-serious-votes-only&p=14861586&viewfull=1#post14861586)).

[AussieSteve]

your thread is flawed by assuming that only 6 first options were better than Pippen.. Many other 1st options were better than Pippen such as Mullin, KJ, Coleman, or Lewis (see stats above), while many 2nd options or opposing forwards had equal or better performance but didn't get accolades because they lacked Pippen's winning spotlight..



You're thread is flawed. Mine is perfect.

Your poll compares Pippen and LeBron's sidekicks against each other, rather than the more relevant comparison, which is against their respective competition.

I've compared Pippen with the sidekicks of Jordan's best individual competition. No one cares in this context if (for example) Jeff Hornacek was better than Pippen, because KJ was not top tier competition for MJ.

You know this. Stop being disingenuous.

[kawhileonard2]

.
All-time rankings


PER

4. AD
24. Wade
34. Kyrie
140. Pippen


WS/48

17. AD
72. Kyrie
77. Wade
139. Pippen


BPM

10. AD
25. Wade
34. Kyrie
36. Pippen

They all are greater than Pippen. Pippen would never outplay Steph in a Finals.

[3ba11]

You're thread is flawed. Mine is perfect.

Your poll compares Pippen and LeBron's sidekicks against each other, rather than the more relevant comparison, which is against their respective competition.

I've compared Pippen with the sidekicks of Jordan's best individual competition. No one cares in this context if (for example) Jeff Hornacek was better than Pippen, because KJ was not top tier competition for MJ.

You know this. Stop being disingenuous.


Among notable 90's sidekicks, Pippen had the worst passing, efficiency, clutch and peak capability (not on scouting report according to Shaq)

He was usually outplayed by opposing forwards and outplayed by opposing sidekicks about half the time when you consider efficiency and clutch, and the fact that most sidekicks were guards that were underperforming against MJ.. He was otherwise destroyed by his matchup and only outscored guards that were underperforming vs MJ.

[AussieSteve]

Among notable 90's sidekicks, Pippen had the worst passing, efficiency, clutch and peak capability (not on scouting report according to Shaq)

He was usually outplayed by opposing forwards and outplayed by opposing sidekicks about half the time when you consider efficiency and clutch, and the fact that most sidekicks were guards that were underperforming against MJ.. He was otherwise destroyed by his matchup and only outscored guards that were underperforming vs MJ.


Strange how one championship was enough to fool everyone at the time into believing he was one of the best players in the world. Also strange how this never happened to anyone else ever.

I suppose you fully expect Jamal Murray to start getting on All NBA teams and finishing top 10 in MVP voting from this season, now that he has to unprecedented winning spotlight of a championship and being the sidekick of the best player in the world.

[Full Court]

Wade and AD are clearly better than Pippen.

With Kyrie, there are more nuances. He's better offensively than Pippen, but Pippen is head and shoulders above defensively. Pippen fit in way better with the Jordan Bulls than Kyrie would have. Bulls didn't need another scorer. Jordan and Pippen meshed perfectly.

[3ba11]

Strange how one championship was enough to fool everyone at the time into believing he was one of the best players in the world. Also strange how this never happened to anyone else ever.

I suppose you fully expect Jamal Murray to start getting on All NBA teams and finishing top 10 in MVP voting from this season, now that he has to unprecedented winning spotlight of a championship and being the sidekick of the best player in the world.


If Pippen was ringless in 1992, he would never make All-NBA... His performance and caliber on it's own was never enough to warrant perennial All-NBA - he could never make numerous All-NBA on a loser or non-champion or non-dynasty.

For example, by saying "one of the best players in the world", you seem to have this misapprehension that Pippen was viewed similar to how we view guys today like Luka, SGA, Giannis, Haliburton, aka "one of the best players in the world"

Pippen was never, at any point in his career, including 1994, viewed on this level..

He was always viewed as a secondary-tier player and option, just like another super-athlete in Blake Griffin (#3 for MVP)..

That's the right way to think about Pippen, aka mostly a dunker, while his weak iso game was coddled in a system alongside the GOAT, otherwise he was 14 ppg player outside the system.. The historical record shows exactly this because "one of the best players in the world" would still be getting elite stats at 33 years old just like Lillard is now, but Pippen got 14 on 43% in Houston with a massive dip in assist-turnover ratio and playoff stats as well (18 on 32% in playoffs).

How could this be "one of the best players in the world"??.. He was simply nothing outside the system and winning spotlight... And even within the system, he still never reached peak-Horry level (0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals - MJ won 6 Finals with less than peak-Horry performance from sidekick and sometimes abysmal performance)..

Btw, the Dream Team wasn't "the top 12 players in the NBA".. Chemistry was a factor and this is the main reason Pippen was on that team - the team was selected around the time of the Bulls' first title... Of course Pippen excels when he's getting carried and unguarded as 89th option, so he fit in well on the Dream Team.

[AussieSteve]

If Pippen was ringless in 1992, he would never make All-NBA... His performance and caliber on it's own was never enough to warrant perennial All-NBA - he could never make numerous All-NBA on a loser or non-champion or non-dynasty.


Ok. Can you name another player in history who won All-NBA 2nd team and top 10 MVP kudos, despite not being one of the best players in the world, but purely because of the wining spotlight?

Keep in mond that Pip had only won one ring at this point, so surely there have been plenty of other average 2nd options who have had much bigger winning spotlights at various times in their career?

[AussieSteve]

If Pippen was ringless in 1992, he would never make All-NBA... His performance and caliber on it's own was never enough to warrant perennial All-NBA - he could never make numerous All-NBA on a loser or non-champion or non-dynasty.


Follow up question... who had the bigger winning spotlight on them: Pippen in 1992, or Kobe in 2001?

Both were playing next to the consensus best player and biggest star in world basketball at the time and both had just won their first ring?

Some things for reference:

Pip '92 - 6th All NBA voting, 5th All-D voting, 9th MVP, 3rd DPOY
Kobe '01 - 7th All NBA voting, 6th All-D voting, 9th MVP, 11th DPOY

Additional question for extra credit... Explain to me why '92 Pip is not the same level as '01 Kobe

[3ba11]

Ok. Can you name another player in history who won All-NBA 2nd team and top 10 MVP kudos, despite not being one of the best players in the world, but purely because of the wining spotlight?

Keep in mond that Pip had only won one ring at this point, so surely there have been plenty of other average 2nd options who have had much bigger winning spotlights at various times in their career?


:facepalm:

You're aware that many 3rd options in the 90's were 1-time All-NBA like Schrempf, Mason, and Mashburn, so Pippen getting All-NBA in a one-off like 92' is specifically why I used the term "perennial" All-NBA in my post..

But the point is that Pippen wasn't good right away and grew from an 8 ppg baby in Jordan's image and drive - he doesn't develop like this on other teams such as getting drafted to a contender (buried on the bench) or alongside a ball-dominator like Magic, who demands all-time iso-closers otherwise you're Michael Cooper - so Pippen could've been Cooper without a coddling, halfcourt system that Jordan's expert jumpshooting allowed..

^^^ that's just an example - you have to open your mind as to how a scrawny, 8 ppg rookie could develop in a completely different scenario with a completely different leader to follow than the current MVP/DPOY and future GOAT...

imagine a scrawny, raw, 8 ppg rookie like Pippen growing up with say, KJ and the late-80's Suns - Pippen would be BURIED on the bench and expected to be spot-up shooter because KJ and Hornacek were established guards that both averaged elite assists for their position.. Meanwhile, Chambers owned the forward spot.. So this is far less opportunity than landing on a zero-roster like the Bulls.. And landing alongside Drexler would've been even worse than landing alongside KJ.. These are just a couple examples without even considering being without MJ's influence on Pippen's game...

Ultimately, we saw Pippen in a more iso-format in Houston where he was required to iso or shoot off Hakeem's kickout and he couldn't do either.. Tomjonavich said he couldn't iso and Pippen himself stated to Rachel Nichols that he couldn't shoot sufficiently for Hakeem

[And1AllDay]

This poll is irrelevant and misleading.

Do a poll of Pippen vs Jordan's opponents' sidekicks. That's what actually matters.

Pick the top players form Jordan's era (eg. Barkley, Hakeem, DRob, Malone, Drexler during the 1st 3peat) and ask us to rate Pip vs their sidekicks.

this

3baLLLLL basically said mikeys era was weak trash since pip was the best #2 in the league at the time but now hes nothing compared to the #2 options of bran/kobes modern era

#2s in modern era
ad
wade
steph/kd
klay
middleton
bam
booker
pg13
jamal murray


#2 of mikey era
divacs
hornacek
porter
moncrief
payton/kemp
larry nance
jay humphrkes
starks :oldlol:

oof

[AussieSteve]

:facepalm:

You're aware that many 3rd options in the 90's were 1-time All-NBA like Schrempf, Mason, and Mashburn, so Pippen getting All-NBA in a one-off like 92' is specifically why I used the term "perennial" All-NBA in my post..



But Schrempf, Mason and Mashburn never made an All-NBA 1st or 2nd team, nor finished top 10 in MVP voting. It's like your trying to prove my points instead of your own.

How did one ring get Pippen this kind of undeserved recognition, when no other 1-time champion second option has ever got anything even remotely close to it?

[And1AllDay]

pls dont be scared of me op. you basically said mikeys 90s era was weak trash since pip was the best #2 option in the 90s league but now hes nothing compared to the #2 options of bran/kobes modern era??

#2s in modern era
ad
wade
steph/kd
klay
middleton
bam
booker
pg13
siakam
jamal murray
parker
brown
tatum


#2 of mikey era
divacs
hornacek
porter
moncrief
payton/kemp
larry nance
mason
jay humphries
starks :oldlol:


oof[/QUOTE]