Nuggets get robbed late at home vs. OKC - SGA whistles again

[ArbitraryWater]

https://gyazo.com/a89ae3c6a06d82d0c43fef394d40b260


Does anybody think this is enough for a foul?

This is all it takes to get free throws?


Shit cost me a 700 euro payout.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Poll: do you feel badly when a degenerate gambler loses money?

1: yes

2: no

[ArbitraryWater]

It was pretty obvious the most simple person on ISH would take the bite of the lowest hanging fruit.

I knew it as soon as I included that, if RMWG is online, hes gonna make the most clever of remarks.


So congrats.

[tontoz]

I don't see a foul there but that's today's NBA, bogus calls that favor the offense. Happens all the time

[Xiao Yao You]

I don't see a foul there but that's today's NBA, bogus calls that favor the offense. Happens all the time

it's expected. Makes what the Wolves are doing that much more impressive

[Duffy Pratt]

Yup, clearly not a foul and also completely unsurprising that it was called.

Nuggets have been too quick to use their challenge, and often do it on much less questionable plays (like last night).

[ArbitraryWater]

Refs love to make these kind of calls.

The keeping-the-game-alive calls.

Keeps the game close and also interesting for them.


Does the 2-minute report still exist?


Cause if they have the guts they would call this a terrible call

[MrFonzworth]

It was pretty obvious the most simple person on ISH would take the bite of the lowest hanging fruit.

I knew it as soon as I included that, if RMWG is online, hes gonna make the most clever of remarks.


So congrats.

This is one of the most rent free posts ever made on ish:lol

[ArbitraryWater]

This is one of the most rent free posts ever made on ish:lol


Tbh I lied about that part just went with that delivery

[hold this L]

There two things. Current NBA is atrocious and the NBA's desire to gas up young talented players. Ja was reffed like he was from a different planet only a few seasons back because it allowed him to be much better, we've already talked enough about the linebacker from Greece. Shai gets some of the most pathetic fouls I have seen. Wiggins got a foul on him on a tight game a few weeks back when Shai his actual foot to push Wiggins off mid air for separation. This was right at the end of the game when refs usually swallow whistles.

[Axe]

So it happens to favor even visiting teams and their respective players lol

[SATAN]

Did he hit him on the arm? Need to see a better replay.

Probably looked worse than it was from where the ref who called it is standing.

[Duffy Pratt]

Refs love to make these kind of calls.

The keeping-the-game-alive calls.

Keeps the game close and also interesting for them.


Does the 2-minute report still exist?


Cause if they have the guts they would call this a terrible call

Two minute report says it was an incorrect call. But that’s ok; it’s not like it made a difference.

[ArbitraryWater]

Two minute report says it was an incorrect call. But that’s ok; it’s not like it made a difference.

Huh?

[elementally morale]

As much as I root for them, the Nuggets deserved to lose. They were the better team but absolutely lacked intensity at the end of the game. Story of the season so far. Denver lost at least 4 close games they should've won. It's like they are trying to cruise and I'm not sure it's a good idea. (As for this one, no it is not a foul but the way the game is called these days... the better question to me is why Jokic doesn't get the benefit of the very same whistles.)

[ArbitraryWater]

As much as I root for them, the Nuggets deserved to lose. They were the better team but absolutely lacked intensity at the end of the game. Story of the season so far. Denver lost at least 4 close games they should've won. It's like they are trying to cruise and I'm not sure it's a good idea. (As for this one, no it is not a foul but the way the game is called these days... the better question to me is why Jokic doesn't get the benefit of the very same whistles.)


Your personal interpretation has absolutey no meaning on someone deserving to lose or not. Even you say they were better, so thats pretty contradictionary.

You deserve to win or lose based on whats happening, and the Nuggets made a stop with a minute left and up 3 that woud have put them in a 90+% winning probabiity.

They also played a tremendous 4th quarter, scoring nearly every possession.

Then the rigjob came to town.

[elementally morale]

Your personal interpretation has absolutey no meaning on someone deserving to lose or not.

If we accept this to be true, it applies to your interpretation of the play in question. It was called and your interpretation is it was unjust. It shouldn't have been called, you say. But it was. Yet 'you deserve to lose based on whats happening' to quote you. The foul was called. That is what actually happened. So... You seem to care as to what your interpretation is.

That aside, the game shouldn't have come down to one (bad) call. This is my interpretation.

[ArbitraryWater]

If we accept this to be true, it applies to your interpretation of the play in question. It was called and your interpretation is it was unjust. It shouldn't have been called, you say. But it was. Yet 'you deserve to lose based on whats happening' to quote you. The foul was called. That is what actually happened. So... You seem to care as to what your interpretation is.

That aside, the game shouldn't have come down to one (bad) call. This is my interpretation.


Dozens of games come down to one call. Who says it shoudnt come down to one call / play? One call has shifted many, many games.

Thats the nature of 2 great teams playing.

Sure they didnt want that to happen, but it did, and they were well within their rights to win none the less, until the refs basically blocked that by blowing the whistle here and prevented Denver from putting the game out of reach.

You dont have to win by 2 plays in order to get bragging rights. Thats a really dumb interpretation.


Im not interpreting anything. I have 2 eyes. Its not a foul.

[Duffy Pratt]

As much as I root for them, the Nuggets deserved to lose. They were the better team but absolutely lacked intensity at the end of the game. Story of the season so far. Denver lost at least 4 close games they should've won. It's like they are trying to cruise and I'm not sure it's a good idea. (As for this one, no it is not a foul but the way the game is called these days... the better question to me is why Jokic doesn't get the benefit of the very same whistles.)

1. He’s not a wing player.

2. He doesn’t dunk - so no highlight is being interfered with.

3. He doesn’t fall down enough.

[tontoz]

Dozens of games come down to one call. Who says it shoudnt come down to one call / play? One call has shifted many, many games.

Thats the nature of 2 great teams playing.

Sure they didnt want that to happen, but it did, and they were well within their rights to win none the less, until the refs basically blocked that by blowing the whistle here and prevented Denver from putting the game out of reach.

You dont have to win by 2 plays in order to get bragging rights. Thats a really dumb interpretation.


Im not interpreting anything. I have 2 eyes. Its not a foul.


Do you really think that was the only bogus call during the game?

[ArbitraryWater]

Do you really think that was the only bogus call during the game?

Not at all, (probably not), but bogus calls throughout the first 3 quarters dont have anywhere the same effect, you cant take them at a 1:1 ratio. The more you get towards the end, the more crucial they are due to the time limit (if the game was first to 100 then it would have almost a 1:1 ratio), and in the minutes leading up to that, there wasnt another ****up call.


So when you have a pretty even game, no teams complaining about any calls, a call like that with a minute left can and indeed did decide the outcome of the game.

[tontoz]

Not at all, (probably not), but bogus calls throughout the first 3 quarters dont have anywhere the same effect, you cant take them at a 1:1 ratio. The more you get towards the end, the more crucial they are due to the time limit (if the game was first to 100 then it would have almost a 1:1 ratio), and in the minutes leading up to that, there wasnt another ****up call.


So when you have a pretty even game, no teams complaining about any calls, a call like that with a minute left can and indeed did decide the outcome of the game.


I can very easily take them the same. 2 pts in the first quarter count the same as 2 pts at the end of the game. The scoreboard doesn't care when points are scored. They all count the same.

Denver was up 8 with 3:30 left. They should have won even with a bad call.

[ArbitraryWater]

Denver was up 8 with 3:30 left. They should have won even with a bad call.

That doesnt make any sense.

OKC is well capable of erasing that or making it close.

Any NBA team is.

That type of logic is what enables bad refereeing, because people turn up and say "well they should have won regardless".


I can very easily take them the same. 2 pts in the first quarter count the same as 2 pts at the end of the game. The scoreboard doesn't care when points are scored. They all count the same.

You dont think bad calls at the end of a game are more crucial?

Many of these games level out and tend to be close in the end anyway. If you get a bs call in the 2nd quarter, the other team just runs it back up and scores cause there is so much time anyway. No pressure. Or you take the next trip off after the bs call in your favor, subconsciously taking it easier. Or theres another bs call thats a make-up call.

These are real human phenomenons and why you cant equate one bad call in the 2nd quarter to one with a minute left of a 1 possession game.

You can choose to understand this or stay ignorant.


Even if you stay ignorant, you havent even established that the Nuggets received a bogus call throughout the game, or a surplus of bogus calls that would make them even in the end.

[tontoz]

That doesnt make any sense.

OKC is well capable of erasing that or making it close.

Any NBA team is.

That type of logic is what enables bad refereeing, because people turn up and say "well they should have won regardless".



You dont think bad calls at the end of a game are more crucial?

Many of these games level out and tend to be close in the end anyway. If you get a bs call in the 2nd quarter, the other team just runs it back up and scores cause there is so much time anyway. No pressure. Or you take the next trip off after the bs call in your favor, subconsciously taking it easier. Or theres another bs call thats a make-up call.

These are real human phenomenons and why you cant equate one bad call in the 2nd quarter to one with a minute left of a 1 possession game.

You can choose to understand this or stay ignorant.


Even if you stay ignorant, you havent even established that the Nuggets received a bogus call throughout the game, or a surplus of bogus calls that would make them even in the end.



This is the "logic" of a guy who lost a bet. All points count the exact same on the scoreboard. That isnt an opinion. Its a fact.

For all we know there may have been more bad calls against OKC. Why didn't Denver challenge the call? You saw the way the Denver players reacted. It's because they used their challenge earlier.

Why don't all teams save their challenge until the 4th quarter? Its because they know points are points and it doesn't matter when they are scored.

[ILLsmak]

arby you setting yourself up to be trolled.

-Smak

[Duffy Pratt]

This is the "logic" of a guy who lost a bet. All points count the exact same on the scoreboard. That isnt an opinion. Its a fact.

For all we know there may have been more bad calls against OKC. Why didn't Denver challenge the call? You saw the way the Denver players reacted. It's because they used their challenge earlier.

Why don't all teams save their challenge until the 4th quarter? Its because they know points are points and it doesn't matter when they are scored.

The fact is that most teams do save their challenges, and almost always will save a second challenge until the end of the game. Denver has been too quick this year in using its first challenge and using it on plays where the call was questionable, and it was likely they would lose the challenge. It’s a coaching weakness for the team in my opinion.

Moreover, the NBA itself acknowledges that late calls in close games are more crucial. That’s why they issue a 2 minute report.

With few exceptions, it’s impossible to say how much a call influences the outcome of a game. What’s clear, however, is that the closer to the end of the game, the easier it is to judge the call’s impact on the outcome. (The reason it’s so hard is that the way the call itself will have a bearing on the way teams play, sub, etc… after the call. Thus, you can almost never say that everything following a call would have been the same. Same goes here. If the call isn’t made here, what happens on the next play? And after that?)

[tontoz]

The fact is that most teams do save their challenges, and almost always will save a second challenge until the end of the game. Denver has been too quick this year in using its first challenge and using it on plays where the call was questionable, and it was likely they would lose the challenge. It’s a coaching weakness for the team in my opinion.

Moreover, the NBA itself acknowledges that late calls in close games are more crucial. That’s why they issue a 2 minute report.

With few exceptions, it’s impossible to say how much a call influences the outcome of a game. What’s clear, however, is that the closer to the end of the game, the easier it is to judge the call’s impact on the outcome. (The reason it’s so hard is that the way the call itself will have a bearing on the way teams play, sub, etc… after the call. Thus, you can almost never say that everything following a call would have been the same. Same goes here. If the call isn’t made here, what happens on the next play? And after that?)



" Late calls in close games" .... Exactly. A lot of time late calls don't matter at all because of the points scores earlier in the game. Many times the game has already been decided.

It wouldn't be practical to do a 48 minute report lol so they just focus on the end of the game because that's what the fans focus on. I see teams challenging calls all the time in the first half if they think they can take points off the board or prevent a guy from going to the foul line.

Even after SGA made those fts Denver still has the lead and the ball. And they scored to put them up 3. I watched the game and Denver's execution was pretty bad late, too many turnovers and long contested jumpers. They just blew it.

[ArbitraryWater]

This is the "logic" of a guy who lost a bet. All points count the exact same on the scoreboard. That isnt an opinion. Its a fact.

For all we know there may have been more bad calls against OKC. Why didn't Denver challenge the call? You saw the way the Denver players reacted. It's because they used their challenge earlier.

Why don't all teams save their challenge until the 4th quarter? Its because they know points are points and it doesn't matter when they are scored.

All points count the same, and yet some, the ones at the end, have a more damning effect, where plays have less of a redeeming option. I figured this to be common sense tbh.


Teams literally try to save their challenge until the 4th quarter.

Nice point owning yourself.

Teams NEVER take a challenge in the first quarter.

Why not?

I thought all points count the same?

Thanks for ending this debate by making the ultimate argument lol.

If points were truly all the same, then the distribution of challenges taken would be relatively balanced between all 4 quarters.

Yes, as you and I know, the heavy majority of challenges taken come in the 4th quarter.


Nice one tontoz :hammerhead:

[tontoz]

All points count the same, and yet some, the ones at the end, have a more damning effect, where plays have less of a redeeming option. I figured this to be common sense tbh.


Teams literally try to save their challenge until the 4th quarter.

Nice point owning yourself.

Teams NEVER take a challenge in the first quarter.

Why not?

I thought all points count the same?

Thanks for ending this debate by making the ultimate argument lol.

If points were truly all the same, then the distribution of challenges taken would be relatively balanced between all 4 quarters.

Yes, as you and I know, the heavy majority of challenges taken come in the 4th quarter.


Nice one tontoz :hammerhead:



What games have you been watching :oldlol:

I see teams taking their challenge in the first half all the time. Just last night i was watching the Kings/OKC game that i had recorded a few days ago and they took their challenge in the first half.

Why didn't denver have their challenge at the end? Because they used it earlier. Players are constantly requesting the coaches to challenge plays throughout the game. They don't wait until the 4th quarter :oldlol:

Points in the end count more, except when they don't count at all. :facepalm

In fact the 1st quarter has the highest rate of successful challenges because they are more likely to be used on a blatantly bad call. At the end of the game they will be more likely to use it in a marginal call because it does them no good if they don't use it before the game ends. The longer a team waits the less likely it will be to find a good situation to use the challenge.Duh

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/g195/tontoz/IMG_20231219_083239.jpg

https://www.reddit.com/r/visualization/comments/j3u5er/nba_coachs_challenge_success_rate_by_game_period/

[Xiao Yao You]

they also get another one now if the first one is successful so I'd imagine they are more likely to use it early now than before

[tontoz]

they also get another one now if the first one is successful so I'd imagine they are more likely to use it early now than before

Exactly. The logical criteria to use when deciding whether or not to challenge a call should be the following:

1) Good chance of being successful
2) will result in a change in the scoreboard.

For example if your player is called for a bad blocking call that results in a possible and1 and you get it overturned, that takes 2 maybe 3 points off the board if you get it overturned.

The longer you wait to use the challenge the less likely it will be to get a good call to use it on. That is just basic common sense.

[Duffy Pratt]

Exactly. The logical criteria to use when deciding whether or not to challenge a call should be the following:

1) Good chance of being successful
2) will result in a change in the scoreboard.

For example if your player is called for a bad blocking call that results in a possible and1 and you get it overturned, that takes 2 maybe 3 points off the board if you get it overturned.

The longer you wait to use the challenge the less likely it will be to get a good call to use it on. That is just basic common sense.

ThatÂ’s common sense when you get a second if the first is successful. The thinking changes a little when taking the challenge can cost you the opportunity to challenge later, plus a timeout. I canÂ’t find any data on when first challenges are taken this year. Before this year, teams took their challenges in the fourth quarter about half the time.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/shlomosprung/2020/01/24/nba-challenge/

One other reason you havenÂ’t mentioned, which I see pretty often, is taking the challenge in the hope of keeping a key player out of foul trouble.

One of the big problems with the Nuggets this year is that they seem to have a tendency to think they have things under control when they actually do not. I completely agree that they still should have won that game. The bad call might have made a difference, but it should not have. They have let too many leads slip away, making stretch runs harder than they needed to be, and itÂ’s cost them a few games.

That said, it’s annoying as hell to watch the refs consistently try to bring things down to the wire. I can’t back this up with data, but it’s shocking when things go otherwise. In last night’s Lakers|Knicks game, I was totally shocked when they spontaneously reviewed Davis’ last foul and determined it was a clear path violation. That call iced the game, and it went against the Lakers. Thus, it violated two of my ideas about how the NBA is rigged. But the Lakers almost certainly would have lost even without that call, so I just put it down to reputation preservation — we will show that we don’t rig things, but only in instances where the rigging will almost certainly not matter.

[tontoz]

A challenge does no good if you don't use it. If there are no good opportunities to use it in the 1st 3 quarters then a team will definitely use it in the 4th quarter whether they have a good opportunity or not.

The refs suck and there are a lot of bad calls. No denying that. But the people whining about a call costing a game are typically fans of the team that lost or gamblers who lost money.

[Duffy Pratt]

A challenge does no good if you don't use it. If there are no good opportunities to use it in the 1st 3 quarters then a team will definitely use it in the 4th quarter whether they have a good opportunity or not.

The refs suck and there are a lot of bad calls. No denying that. But the people whining about a call costing a game are typically fans of the team that lost or gamblers who lost money.

Yes, people typically watch only their own teams and they tend to think that their team gets a horrible whistle, even Laker fans. I think we are all prone to that. I watch a number of games I have no particular interest in, and it’s truly astonishing how bad the officiating is and how many games get decided by it (not just in the last two minutes or by one crucial call.)

[ArbitraryWater]

What games have you been watching :oldlol:

I see teams taking their challenge in the first half all the time. Just last night i was watching the Kings/OKC game that i had recorded a few days ago and they took their challenge in the first half.

Why didn't denver have their challenge at the end? Because they used it earlier. Players are constantly requesting the coaches to challenge plays throughout the game. They don't wait until the 4th quarter :oldlol:

Points in the end count more, except when they don't count at all. :facepalm

In fact the 1st quarter has the highest rate of successful challenges because they are more likely to be used on a blatantly bad call. At the end of the game they will be more likely to use it in a marginal call because it does them no good if they don't use it before the game ends. The longer a team waits the less likely it will be to find a good situation to use the challenge.Duh

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/g195/tontoz/IMG_20231219_083239.jpg

https://www.reddit.com/r/visualization/comments/j3u5er/nba_coachs_challenge_success_rate_by_game_period/


Here, dumb dumb:



—Challenges by quarter: 7% of challenges came in first quarter at a 65% overturn rate. Among the 378, 16% of challenges came in second quarter, at a 53% overturn rate. Third quarter challenges represented 26% of the total, at a 45% overturn rate. About half, 51%, of challenges happened in the fourth quarter, at a 39% overturn rate.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/shlomosprung/2020/01/24/nba-challenge/


Weird, 1 quarter contains over half the challenges, I thought all points are the same doe?

Mind you thats from 2020 btw, the first season. Using it more strategically / later on has increased since then, since coaches noticed they were without a challenge at the end, when it mattered more. That was a big talking point then.


Cmon dude. What honestly compelled you to bring up the challenges? :lol

There was nothing in your brain going "wait a minute, Im proving his point" ?

[imdaman99]

Not to mention they took away 1 point from the Nuggets at the start of the clip... right in front of our degenerative EYES!!!!!!!! How DARE they?

[tontoz]

Here, dumb dumb:



https://www.forbes.com/sites/shlomosprung/2020/01/24/nba-challenge/


Weird, 1 quarter contains over half the challenges, I thought all points are the same doe?

Mind you thats from 2020 btw, the first season. Using it more strategically / later on has increased since then, since coaches noticed they were without a challenge at the end, when it mattered more. That was a big talking point then.


Cmon dude. What honestly compelled you to bring up the challenges? :lol



There was nothing in your brain going "wait a minute, Im proving his point" ?



Uhh no actually the opposite has happened simply because their success rate was so low late in the game. The obvious reason for that is because the longer you wait the less likely it will be to get a good opportunity to use the challenge. It isn't like the refs are a sure thing to blow a call late in the 4th.

It is basic common sense. Why would they use it more often late in gameswhen the data shows they weren't successful? :roll:

[tontoz]

They just had a challenge in the second quarter of the game on right now. I guess they didn't get your memo.


https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/g195/tontoz/Screenshot_20231219-210429.jpg

[tontoz]

Bucks with the 1st quarter challenge :oldlol:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/g195/tontoz/Screenshot_20231219-211643.jpg