Sidekick inflation via winning spotlight (no All-NBA until title) - 1st Team [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

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3ba11

12-20-2023, 07:31 PM

F Scottie Pippen
F Klay Thompson
C Pau Gasol
G Tony Parker
G Joe Dumars

Otoh, many other sidekicks were perennial All-NBA before winning a title and almost immediately upon entering the league such as Penny, KJ, Stockton, or Payton

Pau enjoyed a lot of undeserved accolade because he was barely an all-star before joining Kobe, while Klay's production rate was a small fraction of Jeff Hornacek's.

But Pippen enjoyed the most winning and therefore the most winning spotlight and undeserved sidekick accolade - he himself states that he couldn't provide the shooting help needed for a big man offense in Houston (and therefore couldn't win with other 90's 1st options who were mostly big men):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=114s

CurryOverLebron

12-20-2023, 07:46 PM

https://scontent.ffcm1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/93568962_530121237684015_7963278028627247104_n.jpg ?stp=cp0_dst-jpg_e15_p600x600_q65&_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=3c63d6&_nc_ohc=dwUiCvXnwx0AX9jE77O&_nc_ht=scontent.ffcm1-1.fna&oh=00_AfA2BhX0duCAXHI80xJQmKDG16GQoQKpDbJUub1i9rQj iA&oe=65AAE75B

Source: https://m.facebook.com/hob.jellysmack/posts/lebron-without-an-all-star-vs-jordan-without-pippen-in-the-playoffs-whos-the-rea/530121231017349/

Axe

12-20-2023, 07:46 PM

1-9
:lol

1987_Lakers

12-20-2023, 07:50 PM

Some of these thread titles by OP are from another world. Who talks like that?

SATAN

12-20-2023, 07:53 PM

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/462/827/70f.gif

SATAN

12-20-2023, 07:54 PM

SouBeachTalents

12-20-2023, 08:32 PM

Full Court

12-20-2023, 08:40 PM

Goodbye all. There's no ****ing way I would be around such ****ing idiots in real life. Worst bunch of losers I've ever seen. Literally you fools should be ashamed.

I hope you die slow painful deaths, apart from the few good ones.

****ing scumbags.

Mods or Jeff please delete my account

:roll:

3ba11

12-21-2023, 01:22 PM

Some of these thread titles by OP are from another world. Who talks like that?

anyone that needs to get somewhat nuanced concepts into short titles

FKAri

12-21-2023, 02:28 PM

MJ was David Stern's side kick for all his rings.

WhiteKyrie

12-21-2023, 04:50 PM

MJ was David Stern's side kick for all his rings.

Well at least those were meaningful championship rings. And not make believe meaningless early season tournaments, against teams without a .500 record. That Silver and his Robin :oldlol:

FKAri

12-21-2023, 06:36 PM

Well at least those were meaningful championship rings. And not make believe meaningless early season tournaments, against teams without a .500 record. That Silver and his Robin :oldlol:

Adam Silver is LeBron's sidekick. That's the difference. But try as he might he's still not within arms reach of David Stern. And real hoopers know. From Venice Beach to the Rucker. That Stern was cash from anywhere on and off the court. Who in NBA history could block like him? Did you see the block on Chris Paul from across the country? Dikembe could never.

sdot_thadon

12-21-2023, 08:12 PM

Well at least those were meaningful championship rings. And not make believe meaningless early season tournaments, against teams without a .500 record. That Silver and his Robin :oldlol:

What if Silver changed the rules just to get Lebron past a certain matchup? Imagine the hate lol. Btw now the entire league for the most part gets the same calls Mj did and ironically all of us from thst era are now calling the league soft........

ImKobe

12-21-2023, 08:17 PM

Source: https://m.facebook.com/hob.jellysmack/posts/lebron-without-an-all-star-vs-jordan-without-pippen-in-the-playoffs-whos-the-rea/530121231017349/

This makes no sense. Pippen was not an All-Star in '88, '89, '91 or '98, so if you add those seasons into the mix MJ's record in the POs without an All-Star teammate is 44 - 22 (67%) with 2 championships.

AussieSteve

12-22-2023, 07:48 AM

Look at the gymnastics this guy is doing to try and throw shade at Pip.

For starters, none of these guys ever made an All-NBA 1st team, while Pip made 3. So even if you had a point, Pip is still way ahead of all them.

Secondly, you don't have a point. All these guys' best All-NBA finishes were removed from their championship success. Nothing to do with winning spotlight. They were all just really good and were recognised as such.

Parker was 2nd team in '12, '13 and '14, having not won a ring since '07.

Dumars was 2nd team in '93 having not won since '90.

Klay made an All-NBA before he won a ring and never made another one after his 2nd finals.

Even Pau's best All-NBA finishes were after the Lakers finished being contenders.

And, of course, Pippen was 1st team in '94 and '95 when the Bulls weren't considered top contenders.

Your team is just a list of great championship sidekicks.

3ba11

12-22-2023, 10:02 PM

L

All these guys' best All-NBA finishes were removed from their championship success. Nothing to do with winning spotlight. They were all just really good and were recognised as such.

Parker was 2nd team in '12, '13 and '14, having not won a ring since '07.

Dumars was 2nd team in '93 having not won since '90.

Klay made an All-NBA before he won a ring and never made another one after his 2nd finals.

Even Pau's best All-NBA finishes were after the Lakers finished being contenders.

And, of course, Pippen was 1st team in '94 and '95 when the Bulls weren't considered top contenders.

All those guys would have a small fraction of the accolade without winning titles - if Pippen is ringless, he doesn't get All-NBA or maybe gets 1 like Worthy or 2 like Cummings.

It's clear that the rings made the media give Pippen the benefit of the doubt, so his weak performance was never scrutinized.. So when Pippen scores 16 points on 40%, the media never noticed because the Bulls won.. Pippen's poor play was normalized because the Bulls were winning and didn't lose 3 straight games for 9 years (90-98').

Ditto Klay and obviously Pau, who was nothing before Kobe.

but carry on the delusion

Many fans didn't know Pippen was getting All-NBA every year btw because the media was much smaller bubble back then.. All-NBA really meant nothing back then and it was just a media thing (the opinion of a few dozen media members who were influenced by the winning spotlight) that fans were largely unaware of.

L

Your team is just a list of great championship sidekicks.

Dumars was legit (FMVP and elite stats)

Parker was legit (FMVP and elite stats)

Worthy was legit (FMVP and elite stats)

Otoh, guys like Pau, Pippen and Klay aren't legit because they never achieved elite production in the playoffs like other sidekicks, nor did they win FMVP

Heck, anyone that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to win FMVP for one of the Finals, or average 25 ppg... The only exception is Jordan, since Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg in the Finals.

SouBeachTalents

12-22-2023, 10:20 PM

AussieSteve

12-23-2023, 01:07 AM

Isiah missing the All-NBA team while winning b2b titles and making 3 straight Finals really invalidates OP's theory about the winning spotlight. The guy made Jordan his prison bitch 3 years in a row and still wasn't getting an All-NBA nod.

Worthy too, to some extent.

He won championships in 85, 87 and 88, including an FMVP, but no All-NBA in the 80s. Not until 1990 and 91 did he make it. And even then, it was 3rd teams. Not 1sts like Pip. Nothing to do with winning spotlight.

3ball would say Worthy was better than Pip too. So why still no All-NBAs after 3 rings worth of winning spotlight and a 21ppg on a 57 win team in 89?

3ba11

12-24-2023, 01:29 PM

Isiah missing the All-NBA team while winning b2b titles and making 3 straight Finals really invalidates OP's theory about the winning spotlight. The guy made Jordan his prison bitch 3 years in a row and still wasn't getting an All-NBA nod.

There's a correlation with winning spotlight and All-NBA but not everyone will benefit from the winning spotlight - the Pistons were viewed as an ugly team that ruined the NBA and muddied the pretty dynasties with dirty play and violence.. Isiah was the ringleader where his feet were held to the fire more than "sidekick inflation" (sidekicks getting carried), which is the topic at hand.

Ultimately, you guys are making your arguments based SOLELY on whether a couple dozen media members rank a player as the 3rd or 4th-best player at their position.

Let that sink in.

That's a very bad argument and every time you make it, I win because I'm not going by whether a few journalism majors think a player is 3rd or 4th - I'm going by the player's actual performance, and Pippen's wasn't All-NBA caliber in 88-91', 93', and 96-98'.. So Pippen should have between 0-3 All-NBA - period - that's what his performance indicates, while everything else he got was just winning spotlight.

Look at 1994 - why was Pippen given 1st team over Dominique, who was carrying a badly-coached shit roster to 57 wins?.. The only answer is surprise factor and winning spotlight dynasty, aka "Da Bulls" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZzzZZj1lgk&t=50s)

Of course, Pippen doesn't develop into a 1-time All-NBA player without landing on a bad team where he could get minutes, or landing alongside a similarly-athletic goat where he could develop in MJ's image, or alongside an off-ball player that didn't reduce him to spot-up role.. Since Pippen wasn't good right away and needed a ton of development, the place where he landed mattered a ton.

AussieSteve

12-24-2023, 03:59 PM

There's a correlation with winning spotlight and All-NBA but not everyone will benefit from the winning spotlight - the Pistons were viewed as an ugly team that ruined the NBA and muddied the pretty dynasties with dirty play and violence.. Isiah was the ringleader where his feet were held to the fire more than "sidekick inflation" (sidekicks getting carried), which is the topic at hand.

Ultimately, you guys are making your arguments based SOLELY on whether a couple dozen media members rank a player as the 3rd or 4th-best player at their position.

Let that sink in.

No.I'm just wondering why Pippen was the only guy in history to benefit from the winning spotlight. Why was there no one else?

While we can name many players who you would say are better than Pip and they had a greater winning spotlight, yet no accolades.

For example...
Pippen: One ring = top 10 MVP and top 6 All-NBA voting.
Worthy: 3 rings in 4 years = nothing

All I'm waiting for is for you to name someone else, so that we can see there is some semblance of validity to this 'winning spotlight' theory, or realise that the theory is actually nonsense.

3ba11

12-31-2023, 05:28 PM

.
Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............ 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts

Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............ 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts

No.I'm just wondering why Pippen was the only guy in history to benefit from the winning spotlight. Why was there no one else?

While we can name many players who you would say are better than Pip and they had a greater winning spotlight, yet no accolades.

For example...
Pippen: One ring = top 10 MVP and top 6 All-NBA voting.
Worthy: 3 rings in 4 years = nothing

All I'm waiting for is for you to name someone else, so that we can see there is some semblance of validity to this 'winning spotlight' theory, or realise that the theory is actually nonsense.

The Warriors shocked everyone and took the league by storm in 2015 - Klay benefitted greatly from this, otherwise his Hornacek-caliber would never make a single All-NBA (see stats above).

Furthermore, the Warriors never repeated with Klay as 2nd option, so he never got the same spotlight and resulting inflation/accolade that Pippen got.. Klay's lesser inflation was commensurate with the Warriors' lesser winning than the Bulls and/or not playing alongside MJ.

So Pippen wasn't the only guy to benefit from the winning spotlight, but he had the most winning spotlight of any sidekick and therefore benefitted the most from it via media accolade.

Btw, a guy like Worthy was one of the guys that got underrated because Magic/Kareem were considered the Lakers' tandem and Worthy was considered 3rd best player

No.I'm just wondering why Pippen was the only guy in history to benefit from the winning spotlight. Why was there no one else?

While we can name many players who you would say are better than Pip and they had a greater winning spotlight, yet no accolades.

For example...
Pippen: One ring = top 10 MVP and top 6 All-NBA voting.
Worthy: 3 rings in 4 years = nothing

All I'm waiting for is for you to name someone else, so that we can see there is some semblance of validity to this 'winning spotlight' theory, or realise that the theory is actually nonsense.

Again, heading into the 2015 season, the Warriors were considered a sub-par roster and 8th in preseason odds.. But it turns out that if you use today's strategy 9 years ahead of time (in 2015), you can win 67 games with a sidekick that produces far less than Jeff Hornacek (see stats above).

The Warriors took over the league with a futuristic brand and Klay benefitted from this unexpected winning spotlight.. Only the 90's Bulls shook the league with that kind of impact and attention..

Even Wiggins benefitted from the winning spotlight when he made all-star in 2021 - his numbers were the same as they were in Minnesota except now he was in a winning system that already won with stiffs like Harrison Barnes in his place.

Btw, Pippen should've just stayed injured in 1998 because the Bulls were 24-11 without him (1 seed) and Kukoc could've easily outplayed Pippen's 16.8 ppg on worst-ever efficiency in the playoffs - let that sink in - what player couldn't outplay 16.8 on the worst shooting splits in history?.. So history shows that Jordan simply needed decent coaching and experienced cast to win, which he had in 98' without Pippen.. Pippen was replaceable by literally anyone - peak Horry from the 95' Finals anyone? (pippen is 0/6 in matching horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals).

Wardell Curry

12-31-2023, 09:33 PM

.
Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............ 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts

Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............ 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts

The Warriors shocked everyone and took the league by storm in 2015 - Klay benefitted greatly from this, otherwise his Hornacek-caliber would never make a single All-NBA (see stats above).

Furthermore, the Warriors never repeated with Klay as 2nd option, so he never got the same spotlight and resulting inflation/accolade that Pippen got.. Klay's lesser inflation was commensurate with the Warriors' lesser winning than the Bulls and/or not playing alongside MJ.

So Pippen wasn't the only guy to benefit from the winning spotlight, but he had the most winning spotlight of any sidekick and therefore benefitted the most from it via media accolade.

Btw, a guy like Worthy was one of the guys that got underrated because Magic/Kareem were considered the Lakers' tandem and Worthy was considered 3rd best player

Again, heading into the 2015 season, the Warriors were considered a sub-par roster and 8th in preseason odds.. But it turns out that if you use today's strategy 9 years ahead of time (in 2015), you can win 67 games with a sidekick that produces far less than Jeff Hornacek (see stats above).

The Warriors took over the league with a futuristic brand and Klay benefitted from this unexpected winning spotlight.. Only the 90's Bulls shook the league with that kind of impact and attention..

Even Wiggins benefitted from the winning spotlight when he made all-star in 2021 - his numbers were the same as they were in Minnesota except now he was in a winning system that already won with stiffs like Harrison Barnes in his place.

Btw, Pippen should've just stayed injured in 1998 because the Bulls were 24-11 without him (1 seed) and Kukoc could've easily outplayed Pippen's 16.8 ppg on worst-ever efficiency in the playoffs - let that sink in - what player couldn't outplay 16.8 on the worst shooting splits in history?.. So history shows that Jordan simply needed decent coaching and experienced cast to win, which he had in 98' without Pippen.. Pippen was replaceable by literally anyone - peak Horry from the 95' Finals anyone? (pippen is 0/6 in matching horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals).

You've been banned for all this time and you immediately come back doing this again?

Clearly you're never going to learn your lesson.

Axe

12-31-2023, 11:47 PM

You've been banned for all this time and you immediately come back doing this again?

Clearly you're never going to learn your lesson.
:roll:

AussieSteve

01-01-2024, 04:23 AM

.

So Pippen wasn't the only guy to benefit from the winning spotlight, but he had the most winning spotlight of any sidekick and therefore benefitted the most from it via media accolade.

Btw, a guy like Worthy was one of the guys that got underrated because Magic/Kareem were considered the Lakers' tandem and Worthy was considered 3rd best player

Thanks for confirming what we all expected. Pippen is the only example you can give of players who benefited from the "winning spotlight".

Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? There's actually a much simpler answer to the question "Why did Pippen make so many All-NBA teams and place so highly in MVP voting?" Let me know if you need help figuring it out.

warriorfan

01-01-2024, 07:59 AM

Thanks for confirming what we all expected. Pippen is the only example you can give of players who benefited from the "winning spotlight".

Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? There's actually a much simpler answer to the question "Why did Pippen make so many All-NBA teams and place so highly in MVP voting?" Let me know if you need help figuring it out.

You might think this is some gotcha but you have a gigantic hole in your thought to be airtight argument.

Has there ever been a team with such an intense spotlight as Jordan’s Bulls?

The answer is no. It’s not something that happens a lot, it’s lighting in a bottle that cannot be recreated.

Just because something happened once and never happened again doesn’t mean it never happened in the first place.

If you want to act like Pippen would get the same recognition if he played for a crappy small market team then….Don’t know what else to tell you.

AussieSteve

01-01-2024, 05:20 PM

You might think this is some gotcha but you have a gigantic hole in your thought to be airtight argument.

Has there ever been a team with such an intense spotlight as Jordan’s Bulls?

The answer is no. It’s not something that happens a lot, it’s lighting in a bottle that cannot be recreated.

Just because something happened once and never happened again doesn’t mean it never happened in the first place.

If you want to act like Pippen would get the same recognition if he played for a crappy small market team then….Don’t know what else to tell you.

But that's been my entire point.

What you're saying may have been true by 1994. It was certainly true by 1997. But in 1992? no way? They'd won one ring and were favoured to win a 2nd. This has happened dozens of times in NBA history. There was no unprecedented winning spotlight in Pippen before the 1992 playoffs. It was the same winning spotlight that dozens of others should have benefited from.

warriorfan

01-01-2024, 06:35 PM

But that's been my entire point.

What you're saying may have been true by 1994. It was certainly true by 1997. But in 1992? no way? They'd won one ring and were favoured to win a 2nd. This has happened dozens of times in NBA history. There was no unprecedented winning spotlight in Pippen before the 1992 playoffs. It was the same winning spotlight that dozens of others should have benefited from.

In 92’ the bulls were the hottest thing smoking

And I’ll give you one guess why

3ba11

01-01-2024, 07:56 PM

Pippen is the only example you can give of players who benefited from the "winning spotlight".

No, the Warriors took the league by storm in 2015 and Klay benefitted greatly from this unexpected winning spotlight, otherwise his Hornacek-caliber would never make a single All-NBA (see stats in previous post above).

Furthermore, the Warriors never repeated with Klay as 2nd option, so he never got the same spotlight and resulting inflation/accolade that Pippen got.. Klay's lesser inflation was commensurate with the Warriors' lesser winning than the Bulls and/or not playing alongside MJ.

So Pippen wasn't the only guy to benefit from the winning spotlight since Klay, Pau and others are good examples of inflated players, but he had the most winning spotlight of any sidekick and therefore benefitted the most from it via media accolade.

Why did Pippen make so many All-NBA teams and place so highly in MVP voting?".

Winning spotlight.

The same reason Klay got All-NBA..

Pippen deserved 0-3 All-NBA and the rest was winning spotlight - he didn't deserve All-NBA in 93' or 96-98'

Btw, 1992 is one of the years that Pippen might've been worthy of All-NBA, so you keep bringing up that season when the overall point is that the winning spotlight gave him at least twice as many All-NBA's than he deserved... He probably gets 0 All-NBA if he never lands next to Mike, and even with Mike, he deserved 0-3 - that's the extreme ends of the range - zero on the super-low end and 3 on the super-high end

AussieSteve

01-02-2024, 01:33 AM

.

Btw, 1992 is one of the years that Pippen might've been worthy of All-NBA

So, in the middle of the Bull's first 3peat, Pippen was a top 10 player in the league. Confirmed by his harshest critic, 3ball.

In other words, Pippen was the best sidekick in the league, and better than most teams' best player.

Axe

01-02-2024, 01:37 AM

So, in the middle of the Bull's first 3peat, Pippen was a top 10 player in the league. Confirmed by his harshest critic, 3ball.

In other words, Pippen was the best sidekick in the league, and better than most teams' best player.
:lebronamazed:

Also helped by the fact that he's the most winning player in the 90s.

iamgine

01-02-2024, 03:19 AM

But what about the amortization of star players due to global index fund average increases?

AussieSteve

01-02-2024, 05:06 PM

.

The Warriors shocked everyone and took the league by storm in 2015 - Klay benefitted greatly from this,

What you fail to understand is that Klay didn't just benefit from the warriors winning. He was a central reason why they won. He was without doubt one of the best 6 back court players in the league and recognised as such. I mean, who was more deserving who didn't make it?

Nonetheless, he still isnt an example, because he only made two 3rd teams. One of them before he won a ring.

Pip made 3 first teams.

3ba11

01-02-2024, 07:17 PM

What you fail to understand is that Klay didn't just benefit from the warriors winning. He was a central reason why they won. He was without doubt one of the best 6 back court players in the league and recognised as such. I mean, who was more deserving who didn't make it?

Nonetheless, he still isnt an example, because he only made two 3rd teams. One of them before he won a ring.

Pip made 3 first teams.

Klay was a FAR lower producer than Jeff Hornacek, who made zero All-NBA and that's what Klay deserved - his below-Hornacek caliber would have zero All-NBA outside of a goat system that he grew up in.

So Klay was extremely replaceable by any number of combinations of players - finding another "klay" isn't necessary - his below-Hornacek production wasn't good enough to warrant that - there's a million shooters to put in his place and still upgrade another position if needed..

Klay's spot-up shooting was replaceable, while Pippen's transition dunks were replaceable as well.. Klay was a step up from Danny Green but not much more - he's a rich man's Danny Green and Pippen is a rich man's Harvey Grant

Btw, we know that a goat system isn't possible in key situations - i.e. a goat system cannot be run if the team has a 1st option that dominates the shot distribution and therefore dictates brand of ball, but lacks sufficient brand of ball in their own game for any system to be run.

This was the case with Lebron's early Cavs' teams, where he dominated the shot distribution as a ball-dominator and the team never developed a great system - Lebron's style needed teammates to match his usage (Wade, Kyrie, AD) so it the team wasn't just running bron-ball all the time.. Otoh, Curry and MJ are expert jumpshooters that allow the ball to move and therefore allow maximum strategic capacity/coaching and systems, so they can dominate the shot distribution while the team still runs a great system.. Ultimately, without their goat skillsets and brand of ball, there is no goat system.

Btw, Pau was super-inflated by Kobe's winning spotlight obviously - he was never all-nba before Kobe and made 1 all-star team.. then all of a sudden - same stats as before - but now all-nba with Kobe.. So it's clear as day - anyone that plays with MJ or Kobe enjoys crazy winning spotlight and career-ranking inflation.. Seriously, Pau would be ranked barely 200th if he never played with Kobe - "just another guy" is what he would've been,, facts

ShawkFactory

01-02-2024, 07:23 PM

tpols

01-02-2024, 07:27 PM

Isiah missing the All-NBA team while winning b2b titles and making 3 straight Finals really invalidates OP's theory about the winning spotlight. The guy made Jordan his prison bitch 3 years in a row and still wasn't getting an All-NBA nod.

Not really...

Isiah was a villain. He definitely wasn't winning any popularity contests.

Pau and Pippen were at least somewhat legit, although it's clear they got all their accolades only while winning aside Jordan and Kobe.

Klay otoh was trash in the playoffs the majority of the time. He averages like 16 ppg in the Finals while being mainly known for shooting, no passing, playmaking, rebounding, or help defense. A simple 3pt shooter and decent man defender. That's a role player.

tpols

01-02-2024, 07:30 PM

Klay's shooting ability is one of the greatest ever. He completely changed how a defense had to play the Warriors, regardless of what his production was in an individual game/series. Because of course you had to add extra resources to Steph on the perimeter, but under no circumstances could you leave Klay either. This made things very difficult obviously when two guys on the perimeter are that dynamic of shooters.

He could get hot at any moment and take over a game. Teams knew this.

Klay shot like shit in the 2015, 2016, and 2022 Finals and was average in 2017 and 2018. He goes off once in a while but is generally mid. Pau was at least efficient and more well rounded and Pippen at least played GOAT defense.

ShawkFactory

01-02-2024, 07:33 PM

Klay shot like shit in the 2015, 2016, and 2022 Finals and was average in 2017 and 2018. He goes off once in a while but is generally mid. Pau was at least efficient and more well rounded and Pippen at least played GOAT defense.

That may be. That also wasn't my point.

I'll repeat, it's the way you have to defend as a team when he's out there. Even if he's off no one is sagging in the slightest.

That makes things very difficult when the other guy is Steph.

It was a great combo.

StrongLurk

01-02-2024, 08:47 PM

Another shit thread by OP with 90% of the posters proving him wrong, so he resorts to just copy/paste NPC vomit.

3ba11

01-02-2024, 08:52 PM

Isiah missing the All-NBA team while winning b2b titles and making 3 straight Finals really invalidates OP's theory about the winning spotlight. The guy made Jordan his prison bitch 3 years in a row and still wasn't getting an All-NBA nod.

this thread is about inflated SIDEKICKS - Isiah was a 1st option whose feet were held to the fire - he wasn't an inflated sidekick - so you're kind of making my point that 1st options like Isiah were judged for their performance while carried sidekicks like Klay/Pippen are given a pass and undeserved All-NBA because they were sidekicks on 2-star champions that had unprecedented winning and spotlight.

warriorfan

01-02-2024, 09:01 PM