The Subtleties of Good Team Offense- example: Rudy Gobert

[bdonovan]

The Timberwolves are the best team in the NBA by record (tied with Celtics). If you want to know the secret of winning teams, it's team ball (offense and defense). This is why the success of teams like the Timberwolves or the Nuggets last year is sometimes a mystery to casuals who:

1. Ball-watch and miss it because most beneficial "team" activity is off the ball
2. Assume a team is the sum of its parts (ie: put a bunch of great players on one team and they win); but rather it's how the parts work together.

The example I give is subtle. It may not be the best example of how an off-ball player can help as far as team offense. But it's a great example because of how subtle it is, that most wont' notice it.

https://youtu.be/aeKn_XrOOLw?si=iQIp0-mHUx1PF7R0&t=343

Look at what Gobert does at 5:46 (the video link takes you to this play). While his teammate drives to the rack, he applies pressure to his man to make him think he needs to box out and also make it difficult for him to guard the drive. This allows Conley to score uncontested.

Winning teams do these little things for each other on both ends of the floor to score more easily or to thwart the opponent.

You won't see these moves on teams with poor chemistry, selfish players, ISO players etc.

They may be superstars in the eyes of the casual fan who assumes individual offense is the only dimension of the game. But they will NEVER win anything.

The Suns are a perfect example of that. Neither Durant nor Booker are doing any of these things- they're not going out of their way to screen, create diversions for their teammates, providing smart help defense, etc etc. For years, I've documented how Durant slacks on offense some plays, forces his teammates to go 4 on 5. He makes it HARDER for his teammates while guys like Curry, Jokic, or even Gobert make it easier for them.

One player gets the glory of the ESPN highlight reels (by conserving energy on some plays and making himself look good overall). The other team players get rings.

[Xiao Yao You]

Come on Gobert has no offensive game. You have to shoot 3's, score lots of points and put up triple doubles. There's nothing more to basketball!

[Manny98]

Good offense and Rudy Gobert don't belong in the same sentence, all he's good for is setting screens and grabbing rebounds, he's a negative on that end that is a literal fact

[Kblaze8855]

The issue isn’t if those things are valuable the issue is when you compare somebody who does little else to somebody who does that and can also score 40 points and/or make plays and space the floor outside. It isn’t either or. It’s like talking up great defensive positioning, while ignoring the person in question gets slaughtered if you do manage to isolate him.

One doesn’t make up for the lack of the other, when you are comparing an incomplete player to somebody who can do every aspect. Those intangibles and less noticed parts of the game are only significant when the other people in the comparison can’t do them. And that is rarely if ever the case.

[Xiao Yao You]

The issue isn’t if those things are valuable the issue is when you compare somebody who does little else to somebody who does that and can also score 40 points and/or make plays and space the floor outside. It isn’t either or. It’s like talking up great defensive positioning, while ignoring the person in question gets slaughtered if you do manage to isolate him.

One doesn’t make up for the lack of the other, when you are comparing an incomplete player to somebody who can do every aspect. Those intangibles and less noticed parts of the game are only significant when the other people in the comparison can’t do them. And that is rarely if ever the case.

not rather they can do them will they do them? Gobert does things others won't do even though supposedly as the defensive anchor he isn't supposed to even try at the offensive end. Not his responsibility!

[Kblaze8855]

Most great players do the little things a lot more often than Rudy Gobert displays offensive skill.

A guy like Bam who we barely even talk about is not only one of the best off ball defenders in the NBA he can, and does step out and guard people like Damian Lillard and not on the switch. He can just take that assignment and deal with it by himself. At the same time he runs the floor. He boxes out for others and rebounds himself. You can give him the ball to make plays for others because he can dribble and pass. He can play at the three-point line, doing dribble handoffs and dives to the rim. He can be either end of a pick and roll or a pick and pop. He’s a hell of an athlete who can go get anything you throw near the rim. He can actually hit a pull up jumper. And he makes 80% of his free throws. He’s a complete two-way player. He can do all the little things and he also gives you 20 something points a game.

We act like the intangibles of people who aren’t strong offensive players, make up the difference, when often people who are strong offensive players, do the little things while also being able to take over games on their own or be a playmaker.

Rudy just isn’t a complete basketball player. He’s great at what he does and it’s useful. You don’t have to be complete to be great. Lot of great players aren’t complete players. No need to bullshit about it.

[FireDavidKahn]

Gobert is such an interesting player. He is probably the best "floor raiser" in the entire league that can't be the best player on a championship because his scoring ability is so limited. But his overall effect on offense is huge though because he can make it easier for others to operate. He does all the little things for team offense that cannot be measured in any way in the box score.

His defense is so good that he'll prevent any team he is on from being bad but his scoring ability is so limited he cannot consistently carry a team (when he is playing A+ defense though he can win you a game)

[Xiao Yao You]

Most great players do the little things a lot more often than Rudy Gobert displays offensive skill.

A guy like Bam who we barely even talk about is not only one of the best off ball defenders in the NBA he can, and does step out and guard people like Damian Lillard and not on the switch. He can just take that assignment and deal with it by himself. At the same time he runs the floor. He boxes out for others and rebounds himself. You can give him the ball to make plays for others because he can dribble and pass. He can play at the three-point line, doing dribble handoffs and dives to the rim. He can be either end of a pick and roll or a pick and pop. He’s a hell of an athlete who can go get anything you throw near the rim. He can actually hit a pull up jumper. And he makes 80% of his free throws. He’s a complete two-way player. He can do all the little things and he also gives you 20 something points a game.

We act like the intangibles of people who aren’t strong offensive players, make up the difference, when often people who are strong offensive players, do the little things while also being able to take over games on their own or be a playmaker.

Rudy just isn’t a complete basketball player. He’s great at what he does and it’s useful. You don’t have to be complete to be great. Lot of great players aren’t complete players. No need to bullshit about it.

No one is a complete player. They all have weaknesses including Bam. Rudy is better at a lot of things you just mentioned than Bam. Bam is better at some things. Bam plays both ends of the court though. Most of ISH's faves don't. Why don't we talk about them instead of an actual two way player? Oh yeah they don't have to play both ends if they are anchoring the offense :roll:

[Xiao Yao You]

Gobert is such an interesting player. He is probably the best "floor raiser" in the entire league that can't be the best player on a championship because his scoring ability is so limited. But his overall effect on offense is huge though because he can make it easier for others to operate. He does all the little things for team offense that cannot be measured in any way in the box score.

His defense is so good that he'll prevent any team he is on from being bad but his scoring ability is so limited he cannot consistently carry a team (when he is playing A+ defense though he can win you a game)

But everyone can do those things they just choose not to and at least in Mitchell's case aren't expected to because he is putting up big offensive numbers!

[FireDavidKahn]

But everyone can do those things they just choose not to and at least in Mitchell's case aren't expected to because he is putting up big offensive numbers!

Correct.

The vast majority of players don't like playing with great fundamentals. The ones that care about it (like Gobert) are what makes his impact greater than what his box score shows.

Like guys who take pride in boxing out. They might not get the rebound but they open up a huge amount of space so their teammate can get a rebound. Or setting a great screen which gives their teammate a wide open 3 or a wide open lane for a dunk. That's the stuff Rudy loves to do.

Anyone in the league is capable of doing it but few choose to consistently do it.

This is precisely why it's so hard to accurately compare role players because what separates good role players from bad ones are completely beyond a box score. It's why Kyle Anderson, for example, is a huge positive despite him being really bad on offense. His defense has been HUGE this year

[Kblaze8855]

No one is a complete player. They all have weaknesses including Bam. Rudy is better at a lot of things you just mentioned than Bam. Bam is better at some things. Bam plays both ends of the court though. Most of ISH's faves don't. Why don't we talk about them instead of an actual two way player? Oh yeah they don't have to play both ends if they are anchoring the offense :roll:


There’s a difference between being complete and being perfect. Bam checks a lot more boxes than Rudy ever will. if you can’t dribble, shoot, Drive, or pass, or even make your free throws at a good rate? You’re not a complete player. You’re not close to a complete player. But you spend thousands of posts supporting Rudy while ignoring Bam. Obviously not deciding who to give your attention based on total game. You’re just emotionally attached like other people are to their favorite player.

and a lot of the overwhelming offensive players we see get a lot more done. A guy like Rudy is always going to need some overwhelming offensive players to make up for the fact that a Team relying on a lot of points from him is doomed. Guys like Jokic have been proving throughout history they don’t need overwhelmingly talented defensive teammates.


Rudy is always going to need a Mitchell or guys like Ant and KAT. Jokic doesn’t need a Marcus Smart or a prime Ben Simmons.

The league is completely rigged for the offense. A guy can get picked on defensively but then go and realistically have 42 points and 13 assists nine of them being on threes. Holding the other team to a slightly worse shooting 110 points doesn’t stack up. You need someone on your team to also get you to 115.

[Xiao Yao You]

Correct.

The vast majority of players don't like playing with great fundamentals. The ones that care about it (like Gobert) are what makes his impact greater than what his box score shows.

Like guys who take pride in boxing out. They might not get the rebound but they open up a huge amount of space so their teammate can get a rebound. Or setting a great screen which gives their teammate a wide open 3 or a wide open lane for a dunk. That's the stuff Rudy loves to do.

Anyone in the league is capable of doing it but few choose to consistently do it.

This is precisely why it's so hard to accurately compare role players because what separates good role players from bad ones are completely beyond a box score. It's why Kyle Anderson, for example, is a huge positive despite him being really bad on offense. His defense has been HUGE this year

Anderson does a lot of things well. Not a great shooter. Would have been more appreciated in a different era for sure. You do see these things in win loss records.

[FultzNationRISE]

I like Toody and dont have any agenda against him, however until he can prove that when the playoffs come around and the game planning and adjustments kick in teams cant target him and exploit his lack of perimeter mobility, I think it has to be assumed they still can/will. Cuz thats what we’ve seen the last 3 years.

[Xiao Yao You]

There’s a difference between being complete and being perfect. Bam checks a lot more boxes than Rudy ever will. if you can’t dribble, shoot, Drive, or pass, or even make your free throws at a good rate? You’re not a complete player. You’re not close to a complete player. But you spend thousands of posts supporting Rudy while ignoring Bam. Obviously not deciding who to give your attention based on total game. You’re just emotionally attached like other people are to their favorite player.

and a lot of the overwhelming offensive players we see get a lot more done. A guy like Rudy is always going to need some overwhelming offensive players to make up for the fact that a Team relying on a lot of points from him is doomed. Guys like Jokic have been proving throughout history they don’t need overwhelmingly talented defensive teammates.


Rudy is always going to need a Mitchell or guys like Ant and KAT. Jokic doesn’t need a Marcus Smart or a prime Ben Simmons.

The league is completely rigged for the offense. A guy can get picked on defensively but then go and realistically have 42 points and 13 assists nine of them being on threes. Holding the other team to a slightly worse shooting 110 points doesn’t stack up. You need someone on your team to also get you to 115.

I've ignored Bam now is it? I give my attention to the guy who is unique in my local teams history and whose games I've seen. Pretty sure Bam hasn't ever even been the best player on his own team let along the 3rd best in his franchise's history. Obviously their history is a bit more storied. Let you and others tell that story if you must. Pretty sure Bam never made a bad team good though.

Mitchell needed Gobert more than the other way around. They weren't a good team without Gobert on the floor. Kat has never been good without Butler, Ant or Gobert. Again another guy that should be better than Gobert but isn't despite all that skill you love so much. Some guys just make an impact on winning. Others put up stats for you guys to drool over. Jokic needs a Jamal Murray. He needed Gordon. It's a team game no matter how much you want to make it out to be about certain things and not the whole. Rudy was part of the best offense in the league in Utah. Rather he's the one scoring the points or not he's helping the team put up points with the things he brings that others may be able to do but don't.

[Manny98]

I like Toody and dont have any agenda against him, however until he can prove that when the playoffs come around and the game planning and adjustments kick in teams cant target him and exploit his lack of perimeter mobility, I think it has to be assumed they still can/will. Cuz thats what we’ve seen the last 3 years.
He's completely useless against teams with lots of shooting, in today's NBA you need versatile defenders like a Bam or a Claxton who can defend against different types of offenses

See the Suns game earlier this year where they scored at will against the Timberwolves

[Xiao Yao You]

I like Toody and dont have any agenda against him, however until he can prove that when the playoffs come around and the game planning and adjustments kick in teams cant target him and exploit his lack of perimeter mobility, I think it has to be assumed they still can/will. Cuz thats what we’ve seen the last 3 years.

Gobert can guard the perimeter. He can't guard the perimeter and the rim at the same time. He's finally got a team around him where he doesn't have to do both while at the same time having offensive threats that aren't Favors and Rubio in the corner

https://saltcityhoops.com/dispelling-myths-aroung-goberts-defense/


Let’s start with isolation defense. This year, there were 87 players that guarded at least 50 isolations. If mainstream highlight reels are your source of information here, you’d expect to see Rudy at the bottom of the pack. Actually, the opposite is true. Gobert allows the seventh fewest points per possession (PPP). Opponents score an average of 0.71 points per isolation when Gobert is defending. That’s less than Simmons (0.73), Anunoby (0.76), Bam Adebayo (0.78), Mikal Bridges (0.97), Giannis Antetokounmpo (1.06), Clint Capela (1.07), and Myles Turner (1.08).



Gobert also allows the third lowest scoring frequency (30.6%), the eighth lowest FG% (32%), and the fourth lowest FT throw frequency (4.7%) when guarding opponents in isolation. So, how’s Gobert so good at guarding isolation? He stays in front, goes straight up with his 7’9 wingspan arms, and contests without fouling.




Next, there’s guarding the ball handler in the pick and roll. There are 201 players that have guarded the ball handler in a pick and roll at least 10 times (min. 50 games played). Since tracking data has only picked up that Gobert has guarded the ball in the pick and roll on 15 possessions, this data isn’t as tight as the isolation data, but it’s what we have to deal with. Of the 201 players, Rudy Gobert allows the sixth fewest points per possession (0.67), which is better than basically every household name including Adebayo (0.69), Butler (0.74), Leonard (0.87), Simmons (0.87), and Antetokounpo (0.88).




Next, we have spot-up shooting or catch-and-shoot defense. This is basically how well defenders close out on a shooter that was just passed the ball. There are 233 players who have guarded at least 100 spot-up plays. Again, Gobert allows the seventh fewest points per possession (0.83).




Overall, taking the individual average points allowed (PPP) against isolation, on-ball pick and roll, and catch and shoot, Gobert’s average doesn’t just keep up with the others top candidates for DPOY this year, he blows them out of the water.




However, this still tells us something. The reality is that Gobert has a far better score here than most players on this list because he matches up with guards a fair amount of the time (17.1%). Conversely, Simmons matches up with centers only 6.1% of the time. That’s a big difference. In terms of how each player does in the other guy’s wheelhouse, Gobert holds guards to 39.1% field goal shooting (Simmons 42.1%), while Simmons allows centers to shoot 57.9% (Gobert 43.4%).




In 2018-19, the Jazz faced the Rockets in the first round of the playoffs. At the time, Houston’s offense was both on a historic pace. Rockets had an offensive rating of 114.9 in the regular season. The year before, the Rockets put up a 116.0 o-rating in the first round. The Jazz held the Rockets to a 108.5 offensive rating in that series, the lowest mark of their playoff run. (The Rockets would go on to score 112.1 in their next series vs. the Warriors.) The Jazz didn’t advance, but that was mostly due to their inability to make open shots, rather than anything involving the Gobert-focused defensive strategy.




In 2016-17, the Jazz faced the Warriors in the second round. Across their entire playoff run that year, the Warriors had an ORtg of 118.2. Their first round was a 116.9. In the Western Conference Finals it was 120.3, and in the Finals 120.4. Against the Jazz in the conference semis, the Warriors managed just a 114.4, their worst of any series of their title run.



and that was a hobbled Gobert and Jazz team


If anything, the real issue in these playoff series for the Jazz was offense-related. The Jazz1 (https://saltcityhoops.com/dispelling-myths-aroung-goberts-defense/#note-1) simply could not score. But in terms of the quality of the Gobert-led defense, it held up. Gobert most certainly did not get played off the court in either of those series. His minutes in the 2017 Warriors series were actually higher than his regular season minutes average, and in 2019 he played just 1.4 minutes per game less than he did over his 81 games.



I'm guessing these numbers are even better now with other guys helping him out. I know he was better the following year

[Xiao Yao You]

He's completely useless against teams with lots of shooting, in today's NBA you need versatile defenders like a Bam or a Claxton who can defend against different types of offenses

See the Suns game earlier this year where they scored at will against the Timberwolves

a back to back on the road. Nice choice there! :facepalm

Why are the Nets under .500 with the great Claxton? Gobert won games no matter who they put on the floor with him

[Manny98]

a back to back on the road. Nice choice there! :facepalm

Why are the Nets under .500 with the great Claxton? Gobert won games no matter who they put on the floor with him
It's not just that game, see the Clippers series, see the Rockets series, see the Dallas series. Rudy is a liability against teams with 5 out shooting

If you swap Claxton and Gobert l, Timberwolves would still have one of the best records in the league and the Nets would improve by a couple of wins but nothing more

[Manny98]

Gobert can guard the perimeter. He can't guard the perimeter and the rim at the same time. He's finally got a team around him where he doesn't have to do both while at the same time having offensive threats that aren't Favors and Rubio in the corner

https://saltcityhoops.com/dispelling-myths-aroung-goberts-defense/


















and that was a hobbled Gobert and Jazz team



I'm guessing these numbers are even better now with other guys helping him out. I know he was better the following year

When the Timberwolves inevitably in the second round I will be proven right about everything and I'm just going to keep quiet and let the results speak for themselves

[Xiao Yao You]

It's not just that game, see the Clippers series, see the Rockets series, see the Dallas series. Rudy is a liability against teams with 5 out shooting

If you swap Claxton and Gobert l, Timberwolves would still have one of the best records in the league and the Nets would improve by a couple of wins but nothing more

The offense was the problem vs Houston not the D. Against the Clippers the only problem was Gobert not being able to guard a whole team alone because according to you Mitchell isn't expected to play any D. :roll:

With Gobert the Nets would be a playoff team certainly. A lot more talent than the Jazz had

[Xiao Yao You]

When the Timberwolves inevitably in the second round I will be proven right about everything and I'm just going to keep quiet and let the results speak for themselves

you've never been right about anything though. I guess there's always a first time

[FultzNationRISE]

Xiao has an excuse for literally every single instance Toody wasnt perfect.

Toody has never made a mistake or come up short in any way shape or form. He is simply the best player the league has ever seen by far, any failure to prove as much is simply the result of playing back to back games, or playing without the all defensive team in support behind him, or because coach didnt set him up perfectly for everything. Things no other player has to go through. Only Toody.

If not for these acts of organizational failure itd be clear he is Russell and Wilt combined in one man.

[Kblaze8855]

I've ignored Bam now is it? I give my attention to the guy who is unique in my local teams history and whose games I've seen. Pretty sure Bam hasn't ever even been the best player on his own team let along the 3rd best in his franchise's history. Obviously their history is a bit more storied. Let you and others tell that story if you must. Pretty sure Bam never made a bad team good though.

Mitchell needed Gobert more than the other way around. They weren't a good team without Gobert on the floor. Kat has never been good without Butler, Ant or Gobert. Again another guy that should be better than Gobert but isn't despite all that skill you love so much. Some guys just make an impact on winning. Others put up stats for you guys to drool over. Jokic needs a Jamal Murray. He needed Gordon. It's a team game no matter how much you want to make it out to be about certain things and not the whole. Rudy was part of the best offense in the league in Utah. Rather he's the one scoring the points or not he's helping the team put up points with the things he brings that others may be able to do but don't.



Putting aside all your usual arguments that require the acceptance of a premise you create to have merit….

It never stops being funny watching you repeat the term “team game” while crediting Rudy for virtually every win any team he’s on has ever had. Including when they won a game seven he played 13 minutes of. You not seeing how much you minimize the teams contribution while insisting all aspects of the game be valued is just golden.

[Xiao Yao You]

Putting aside all your usual arguments that require the acceptance of a premise you create to have merit….

It never stops being funny watching you repeat the term “team game” while crediting Rudy for virtually every win any team he’s on has ever had. Including when they won a game seven he played 13 minutes of. You not seeing how much you minimize the teams contribution while insisting all aspects of the game be valued is just golden.

when a team is bad and even trying to be bad and one guy makes that team good what else can be said?

[FireDavidKahn]

He's completely useless against teams with lots of shooting, in today's NBA you need versatile defenders like a Bam or a Claxton who can defend against different types of offenses

See the Suns game earlier this year where they scored at will against the Timberwolves

I mean...Gobert absolutely dominated the Celtics and OKC earlier in the year.

Sometimes our defense just doesn't work out on a given night. It happens.

[Kblaze8855]

Again your argument is based on other people accepting as fact a premise that you create. Once you realize that almost nobody else on this planet thinks what you think to begin with it should be easier to understand why so few people reach the same conclusions you do.

we all have niche opinions. But problems arise when you use them as the basis of an argument. People who don’t have that niche opinion see an entire argument based on the flawed premise. You can think he carried the team. You can say it 12,000 more times. When the people you’re talking to don’t accept that premise using it as the basis of an argument Obviously gets nowhere. You’re the man who built his house upon the sand consistently surprised nobody wants to move in.

most of the time it’s best to just say you really really like Rudy Gobert, so you think things other people don’t and leave it at that. So that’s what I’ll do right now And get back to My thus far disappointing audiobook.

[FireDavidKahn]

It's not just that game, see the Clippers series, see the Rockets series, see the Dallas series. Rudy is a liability against teams with 5 out shooting

If you swap Claxton and Gobert l, Timberwolves would still have one of the best records in the league and the Nets would improve by a couple of wins but nothing more

Incorrect. The interesting thing about this Wolves team is that we have 3 players who are entirely capable of taking over a game and carrying us to wins. Gobert is, and has, dominated other teams on defense to the point where he was the reason we won (Celtics and OKC are the main example). KAT to a lesser extent has carried us offensively to a few wins and then there is Ant...no explanation needed.

For the most part this year one of those 3 have always stepped up in any given game when the other two have had bad games. It's one of the main reasons why our record is so good. The main issue is hoping they all can click together in a game together which has proved elusive. Hopefully that can be achieved in the play offs.

[Xiao Yao You]

I mean...Gobert absolutely dominated the Celtics and OKC earlier in the year.

Sometimes our defense just doesn't work out on a given night. It happens.

supposed to go 82-0 in a league where the offense has every advantage

[Xiao Yao You]

Again your argument is based on other people accepting as fact a premise that you create. Once you realize that almost nobody else on this planet thinks what you think to begin with it should be easier to understand why so few people reach the same conclusions you do.

we all have niche opinions. But problems arise when you use them as the basis of an argument. People who don’t have that niche opinion see an entire argument based on the flawed premise. You can think he carried the team. You can say it 12,000 more times. When the people you’re talking to don’t accept that premise using it as the basis of an argument Obviously gets nowhere. You’re the man who built his house upon the sand consistently surprised nobody wants to move in.

most of the time it’s best to just say you really really like Rudy Gobert, so you think things other people don’t and leave it at that. So that’s what I’ll do right now And get back to My thus far disappointing audiobook.

I post articles and facts to back up what I say. Doesn't matter if you don't want to hear it. Rather anyone else thinks a team tanking that has lost 9 straight before the emergence of one player makes them competitively suddenly thinks otherwise isn't on me. I was watching. You tend to notice when a horrible team isn't horrible anymore and it was pretty obvious what the difference was just like now you can see the difference when The Bum is out and the coach is forced to play guys that are better than him

[Xiao Yao You]

Incorrect. The interesting thing about this Wolves team is that we have 3 players who are entirely capable of taking over a game and carrying us to wins. Gobert is, and has, dominated other teams on defense to the point where he was the reason we won (Celtics and OKC are the main example). KAT to a lesser extent has carried us offensively to a few wins and then there is Ant...no explanation needed.

For the most part this year one of those 3 have always stepped up in any given game when the other two have had bad games. It's one of the main reasons why our record is so good. The main issue is hoping they all can click together in a game together which has proved elusive. Hopefully that can be achieved in the play offs.

they looked good in the games without Ant. They look good on defense no matter who is in the game it seems. Everyone has bought in and believes

[Manny98]

Incorrect. The interesting thing about this Wolves team is that we have 3 players who are entirely capable of taking over a game and carrying us to wins. Gobert is, and has, dominated other teams on defense to the point where he was the reason we won (Celtics and OKC are the main example). KAT to a lesser extent has carried us offensively to a few wins and then there is Ant...no explanation needed.

For the most part this year one of those 3 have always stepped up in any given game when the other two have had bad games. It's one of the main reasons why our record is so good. The main issue is hoping they all can click together in a game together which has proved elusive. Hopefully that can be achieved in the play offs.
Nobody is questioning what he can offer in the regular season

What im saying is over a 7 game series where teams make adjustments to exploit Goberts weaknesses I don't believe the Timberwolves have enough to counter that

If they make the finals this year I'll happily hold my hands up and admit I'm wrong about everything

[Manny98]

The offense was the problem vs Houston not the D. Against the Clippers the only problem was Gobert not being able to guard a whole team alone because according to you Mitchell isn't expected to play any D. :roll:

With Gobert the Nets would be a playoff team certainly. A lot more talent than the Jazz had

Yeah everyone fault except for Gobert we know the drill *rolls eyes*

[Manny98]

Xiao has an excuse for literally every single instance Toody wasnt perfect.

Toody has never made a mistake or come up short in any way shape or form. He is simply the best player the league has ever seen by far, any failure to prove as much is simply the result of playing back to back games, or playing without the all defensive team in support behind him, or because coach didnt set him up perfectly for everything. Things no other player has to go through. Only Toody.

If not for these acts of organizational failure itd be clear he is Russell and Wilt combined in one man.

He'd be less insufferable if he would just stop acting like Gobert on the Jazz was like LeBron in his first stint in Cleveland and he had no help whatsoever and carried them by himself

[Xiao Yao You]

Nobody is questioning what he can offer in the regular season

What im saying is over a 7 game series where teams make adjustments to exploit Goberts weaknesses I don't believe the Timberwolves have enough to counter that

If they make the finals this year I'll happily hold my hands up and admit I'm wrong about everything

you question it daily and you've always been wrong about everything

[Xiao Yao You]

He'd be less insufferable if he would just stop acting like Gobert on the Jazz was like LeBron in his first stint in Cleveland and he had no help whatsoever and carried them by himself

from tanking to 6th best record in the league. From closer to the top pick to 5th seed. Lebron certainly had a lot more talent around him in Cleveland.

[Manny98]

you question it daily and you've always been wrong about everything

I'm still waiting to be proven wrong regarding Rudy and the playoffs

[Xiao Yao You]

I'm still waiting to be proven wrong regarding Rudy and the playoffs

you've got quite a wait

[Manny98]

from tanking to 6th best record in the league. From closer to the top pick to 5th seed. Lebron certainly had a lot more talent around him in Cleveland.

You don't think the additions of Hill and Joe Johnson + Hayward developing into an all star had anything to do with the Jazzs improvement in 2017?

LeBron never had a player as close to being as good as Mitchell during his first stint in Cleveland df are you on about :facepalm

[Xiao Yao You]

You don't think the additions of Hill and Joe Johnson + Hayward developing into an all star had anything to do with the Jazzs improvement in 2017?

LeBron never had a player as close to being as good as Mitchell during his first stint in Cleveland df are you on about :facepalm

Yep that was the closest they got to putting a team around him before the Rubio shit show. Finally has a proper team this year. No corpses, stiffs, gunners or Bums

I'd rather have Ilguasgas or Mo. Cavs were a top defensive team I believe. Guys that play one end and can do nothing but iso don't interest me

[bdonovan]

Most great players do the little things a lot more often than Rudy Gobert displays offensive skill.
....

This is not a dissection of the full extent of Rudy Gobert's offensive prowess. It's an examination of the 'team' elements of the game that teams that are dominant do and teams that seem good on paper (ie: the Suns) do NOT do. It is one among many that the Timberwolves do.

Most of what you cited as "someone else having a better offensive game" is not only outside the scope of what I was trying to illustrate but also narrowly focused on individual aspects of the game- whether offense or defense.

This board in general tends to be myopic in analyzing the game, fixating on individual contributions such as on-ball defense (individual) and individual offense (creating, shooting).

I could just have easily talked about how the T'Wolves double-screen for their offensive players (good example is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44GfPhgeoOo). Time and again you will see the great teams be unselfish; here you have a top offensive player in KAT willing to screen for his teammate. Many, many such examples- whether they be created diversions off the ball, spacing, help defense, and on and on. Good teams win for a reason NOT just the sum of their parts.

[tontoz]

I would agree that off ball aspects of offense get undervalued. But i also think that Gobert frequently looks clumsy with the ball in his hands. If he has to take a dribble there is a huge dropoff in his effectiveness.

[Xiao Yao You]

I would agree that off ball aspects of offense get undervalued. But i also think that Gobert frequently looks clumsy with the ball in his hands. If he has to take a dribble there is a huge dropoff in his effectiveness.

He plays to his strengths. Something a lot of guys don't do