Was Kobe's on-court play unfairly criticized compared to Shaq's in the 2000-2004 era?

[Im Still Ballin]

I just watched an awesome three-part video series about the Kobe-Shaq beef. I'll link the videos below. It was extremely thorough and included all the news articles and quotes from post-game conferences and interviews. Very cool to watch.

The simple gist of the beef seemed to be Shaq's immaturity off the court and Kobe's immaturity on the court. Shaq coming into the season out of shape; delaying surgery until the season starts. Kobe playing hero ball and taking too many shots; keeping to himself and skipping team functions.

The one thing that sticks out to me is Shaq's childish attitude and rationalizations. He would repeatedly say how he wasn't a Bill Cartwright or Luc Longley type. That if he didn't get his touches he wouldn't give effort on defense. Phil even came to Kobe at one point and said we're losing the big guy. This was during Kobe's 40+ point streak.


In 2003, Bryant scored 40 points or more in nine consecutive games, tying a record Jordan held when he accomplished the same feat during the 1986–87 season.

And I know the team played better when Shaq was more of a focal point on offense. But how much of that was O'Neal simply playing harder on defense? Giving more effort? Shaq and Kobe were both "my way or the highway" types, but I think Kobe was more willing to compromise. Was Shaq someone who would pout and sabotage if he didn't get his way?

I guess my point is... was Shaq given too much of a pass compared to Kobe regarding on-court play? It's much easier to blame the guy who took too many shots than the one who was lazy on defense.

People want simple answers to complex problems. Why did we lose?

It's usually the guy who can't shoot or who took one too many shots who gets the blame. Like Ben Simmons in 2021. People blamed him while ignoring all of Embiid's turnovers and misses. And that's not even getting into the 76ers' blown rotations and defensive breakdowns.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud9FFraGI0s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJVf6i1gigY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO7_ypCv6IY

[Im Still Ballin]

That 2008-2010 period added so much to Kobe's "legacy" and probably validated LA backing Kobe in the Shaq beef in many Laker fans' minds. Those squads didn't have exceptionally stacked rosters but had a great coach, leader, and a bunch of guys who fit together. Very much a "greater than the sum of its parts" type of team. At least in my opinion...

[FultzNationRISE]

. Was Shaq someone who would pout and sabotage if he didn't get his way?

I guess my point is... was Shaq given too much of a pass compared to Kobe regarding on-court play? It's much easier to blame the guy who took too many shots than the one who was lazy on defense.




Neither guy took the high ground obviously and you could argue Shaq wanted the right thing for the wrong reasons. But it was still ultimately the right thing, to play thru your dominant big. Thats basic basketball.

Shaq dominating Ben Wallace in the Finals only to have Kobe brick them out of a championship is not an act of sabotage. He did what he was supposed to do. Kobe was still fighting a battle with his ego at that time.

If Shaq was clearly the second best option I dont think he would have been as stubborn about being #1 as Kobe was. I think Shaq felt it was simply the correct protocol that because hes the best player, he gets first dibs on touches and acclaim. I dont think it was necessarily a motivation of personal insecurity, but rather that its just the way its supposed to be, and Kobe was trying to cut the line so to speak. Kobe I think was maybe motivated a little more by feeling like basketball was the thing that would force everyone to respect him, and he’d been planning and working to have a career like MJ for so long, and especially as a cultural outsider he badly wanted to establish that top dog status on the court.

Anyway they were both young guys in the grand scheme of things and people make mistakes. But I still personally think if you have to assign blame here, more of it falls on Bean than on The Diesel.

[Im Still Ballin]

Neither guy took the high ground obviously and you could argue Shaq wanted the right thing for the wrong reasons. But it was still ultimately the right thing, to play thru your dominant big. Thats basic basketball.

Shaq dominating Ben Wallace in the Finals only to have Kobe brick them out of a championship is not an act of sabotage. He did what he was supposed to do. Kobe was still fighting a battle with his ego at that time.

If Shaq was clearly the second best option I dont think he would have been as stubborn about being #1 as Kobe was. I think Shaq felt it was simply the correct protocol that because hes the best player, he gets first dibs on touches and acclaim. I dont think it was necessarily a motivation of personal insecurity, but rather that its just the way its supposed to be, and Kobe was trying to cut the line so to speak. Kobe I think was maybe motivated a little more by feeling like basketball was the thing that would force everyone to respect him, and he’d been planning and working to have a career like MJ for so long, and especially as a cultural outsider he badly wanted to establish that top dog status on the court.

Anyway they were both young guys in the grand scheme of things and people make mistakes. But I still personally think if you have to assign blame here, more of it falls on Bean than on The Diesel.

Fair perspective.

I wasn't suggesting that Kobe's selfish on-court play wasn't a problem. Merely that Shaq's on-court shortcomings are glossed over. Like you did just then. It's much easier to identify and quantify hero ball than it is a lazy defender not coming up to the level of the screen and creating defensive breakdowns. Most peoples' analysis rarely extends further than the box score.

[Im Still Ballin]

And by sabotage, I meant Shaq not giving effort to get up and down the court and on defense and rebounding as a form of protest because he's not getting his shots. Thereby giving an inaccurate picture of how good the team could play that way - a more Kobe-centric approach.

[FultzNationRISE]

Fair perspective.

I wasn't suggesting that Kobe's selfish on-court play wasn't a problem. Merely that Shaq's on-court shortcomings are glossed over. Like you just did then. It's much easier to identify and quantify hero ball than it is a lazy defender not coming up to the level of the screen and creating defensive breakdowns. Most peoples' analysis rarely extends further than the box score.


I’m not sure I would call Shaq’s conditioning issues or lack of defensive prowess “glossed over.” I feel like that gets mentioned regularly.

[Im Still Ballin]

I’m not sure I would call Shaq’s conditioning issues or lack of defensive prowess “glossed over.” I feel like that gets mentioned regularly.

But to what extent, though?

You'd always hear more about Kobe taking too many shots. Shaq's laziness on the actual court seemed to be something that you'd just have to accept. Something that comes with his overall play. You know, "you take the good with the bad."

It was always "Kobe needs to play the right way." But what about Shaq? Wouldn't it be fair to criticize him for not playing defense the right way? I know Phil Jackson said "it's now or never" in game 7 against Portland when they were down like 16 going into the fourth. Even D-Wade said the same to him at times.

To reiterate, I'm talking about play on the court. Yes, what you do off the court/in the off season influences it, but I'm purely speaking about what happens during play. It just seemed like Kobe got more of a raw deal because it's easier to point out and measure his poor play on the court.

Scenario #1: We lost because Kobe tried to do it himself and took too many shots. You can easily support that with the box score and game footage.

Scenario #2: We lost because Shaq was lazy on ball screens and gave up 10+ uncontested shots. Also caused several defensive breakdowns leading to open shots. Harder to quantify and support with game footage.

[tpols]

They are both to blame, but at the end of the day Shaq won less without Kobe than the other way around.

And he needed a peak Wade to barely squeak the 1 he did win out.

[Im Still Ballin]

They are both to blame, but at the end of the day Shaq won less without Kobe than the other way around.

And he needed a peak Wade to barely squeak the 1 he did win out.

You have to give the Kobester credit for his 2008-2010 stretch. Proved that he could lead elite-level teams to championships. And I question just how strong those supporting casts were. It seemed they continued to perform despite injuries to Bynum and Ariza. Seemed more like guys who just fit well as opposed to raw talent.

[FultzNationRISE]

You have to give the Kobester credit for his 2008-2010 stretch. Proved that he could lead elite-level teams to championships. And I question just how strong those supporting casts were. It seemed they continued to perform despite injuries to Bynum and Ariza. Seemed more like guys who just fit well as opposed to raw talent.

This is kinda revisionist. What did he lead?

The sentiment among analysts at the time, and you can go back and look it up, was that Kobe was shooting more than they needed him to and that the team would win easier if they played thru the bigs more. Also if you wanna talk about who can or cant win without whom, Kobe only started winning again when Derek Fisher returned to the team and brought leadership and toughness back to the team. Players on the team were even hinting in interviews from that time there was a little bit of a lack of trust between “some” guys and we all know who that was someone was.

Kobe took the most shots each game. If you can point to any other ways in which you could call him the “leader” of that team I’d be curious.

Fisher and Pau were quietly the leaders in terms of making sure the team did enough to win regardless of whatever Kobe decided to do on his own. The idea that Kobe was somehow carrying this team and had no choice but to take 30 shots a game or they couldnt win is a common conception by people who like seeing him in that light. Which is okay, to each their own, but personally I have a hard time accepting that as the genuine truth.

[Im Still Ballin]

This is kinda revisionist. What did he lead?

The sentiment among analysts at the time, and you can go back and look it up, was that Kobe was shooting more than they needed him to and that the team would win easier if they played thru the bigs more. Also if you wanna talk about who can or cant win without whom, Kobe only started winning again when Derek Fisher returned to the team and brought leadership and toughness back to the team. Players on the team were even hinting in interviews from that time there was a little bit of a lack of trust between “some” guys and we all know who that was someone was.

Kobe took the most shots each game. If you can point to any other ways in which you could call him the “leader” of that team I’d be curious.

Fisher and Pau were quietly the leaders in terms of making sure the team did enough to win regardless of whatever Kobe decided to do on his own. The idea that Kobe was somehow carrying this team and had no choice but to take 30 shots a game or they couldnt win is a common conception by people who like seeing him in that light. Which is okay, to each their own, but personally I have a hard time accepting that as the genuine truth.

I'm not sure how to respond to this.

Sure, Kobe took too many shots at times. But he was still the primary option and number-one shot creator. That cannot be disputed! His movement on and off the ball created many opportunities for LA within the triangle offense. It seemed to run fine without Bynum in 2008 after they got Pau.

[Micku]

The one thing that sticks out to me is Shaq's childish attitude and rationalizations. He would repeatedly say how he wasn't a Bill Cartwright or Luc Longley type. That if he didn't get his touches he wouldn't give effort on defense. Phil even came to Kobe at one point and said we're losing the big guy. This was during Kobe's 40+ point streak.



Yeah, it was talked about back then.

But there are times when I guess a couple of big guys would do that? They would sabotage the team if they got pissed enough. Barkley even said one time on TNT that he would get pissed at times when his teammates wouldn't throw him the ball when he was establishing good post position, so he would camp in the paint for the 3 seconds. He would say something like, "If you don't give me the ball, we going the other way." Here is the clip right here at the 4 min mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcJwYoDy54I#t=03m57s

These are the ones that we hear about, but there might be others that we don't hear about as much. I think Shaq mentioned that he did this a couple of times too, but I don't remember.

I remember when Doc Rivers was also asked about why he set plays for Perkins to get him the ball at the top of the key when he isn't a threat or gonna score. The thought process is that every player needs to get involved in the offense. So, they would get touches even though they aren't going to score. This would make them try harder on defense. Same thing with Shaq, especially during the 3peat years.

But the Shaq and Kobe stuff, both were at fault. Shaq the philosophy of getting "hurt on company time, healing at company time" and Shaq not coming to training camp ready enraged Kobe. And as you said, on the court Kobe would freeze out Shaq at times. Both had big egos. There was criticism for both of them, but I do think Kobe got more of the blame. I think ppl understood why. As you said, it was easier to blame Kobe when you saw on the court that he would be selfish. He would get double team and he wouldn't even think about passing the ball. It was always an issue with him. And Kobe passing the ball to Shaq was an easier fix than motivating Shaq in the off-season to get in shape.

[warriorfan]

This is kinda revisionist. What did he lead?

The sentiment among analysts at the time, and you can go back and look it up, was that Kobe was shooting more than they needed him to and that the team would win easier if they played thru the bigs more. Also if you wanna talk about who can or cant win without whom, Kobe only started winning again when Derek Fisher returned to the team and brought leadership and toughness back to the team. Players on the team were even hinting in interviews from that time there was a little bit of a lack of trust between “some” guys and we all know who that was someone was.

Kobe took the most shots each game. If you can point to any other ways in which you could call him the “leader” of that team I’d be curious.

Fisher and Pau were quietly the leaders in terms of making sure the team did enough to win regardless of whatever Kobe decided to do on his own. The idea that Kobe was somehow carrying this team and had no choice but to take 30 shots a game or they couldnt win is a common conception by people who like seeing him in that light. Which is okay, to each their own, but personally I have a hard time accepting that as the genuine truth.

this post is insane

[Axe]

They are both to blame, but at the end of the day Shaq won less without Kobe than the other way around.

And he needed a peak Wade to barely squeak the 1 he did win out.
At the end of the day, shaq also still has more finals mvps than him.

[FKAri]

Yes. Only legit criticism is the 04 finals for Kobe.

[Baller234]

Shaq never got along with others whenever they tried to take his shine. He resented Penny in Orlando and then he resented Kobe. Plus he's flat out admitted that after he won the first ring he thought he was entitled to take it easy. Kobe never ever took his foot off the gas.

Just look at the way Shaq conducts himself on TNT. To this day I don't think he understands that Barkley is the reason people watch and not him.

[1987_Lakers]

Shaq never got along with others whenever they tried to take his shine. He resented Penny in Orlando and then he resented Kobe. Plus he's flat out admitted that after he won the first ring he thought he was entitled to take it easy. Kobe never ever took his foot off the gas.

Just look at the way Shaq conducts himself on TNT. To this day I don't think he understands that Barkley is the reason people watch and not him.

Shaq is one of the most insecure legends out there, I think the only star player he didn't turn against was Wade, but that was because he was getting old by that point, could only imagine what would have ensued if peak Shaq & Wade played together.

[Baller234]

Shaq is one of the most insecure legends out there, I think the only star player he didn't turn against was Wade, but that was because he was getting old by that point, could only imagine what would have ensued if peak Shaq & Wade played together.

Plus after the Kobe debacle he wanted to prove to his critics that he wasn't selfish, so in response he overplayed the "This is Wade's team" angle.

[ILLsmak]

Yes. Only legit criticism is the 04 finals for Kobe.

Nah, I dunno. Shaq is def a hypocrite cuz he admitted being jealous Rodman could do whatever and still ball out, but he was a guy who would take the first months off being injured. 03 is pretty late cancerous Kobe. There was already a rift there. There should not have been one, but I do blame Kobe more because his beef is the same level of bitchiness as Shaq had toward Rodman (probably also w/ a lil jealousy like he wanted a FMVP, too,) he was mad Shaq could do whatever he wanted. He wanted to see the 'better' Shaq that worked harder, but Shaq as he was was fine.

If Kobe didn't want a FMVP, they would have won way more rings. 2004 was the end, but there was stuff happening before that. It's not like Kobe couldn't have gotten a FMVP, either, imo. But he wanted to win 'his way,' which didn't really make sense when he was playing with Shaq. The amount of times those guys didn't pass the ball to each other after about 2 rings was ridic, tho. Shaq even got dudes like Malone and GP in there to play with him, and I think that's why Kobe took it so hard.

It's def both of their fault, and they were both dumb, but Kobe could have just stayed the same and they would have won. So, that's why I think it's more his fault.

-Smak

[ILLsmak]

Shaq never got along with others whenever they tried to take his shine. He resented Penny in Orlando and then he resented Kobe. Plus he's flat out admitted that after he won the first ring he thought he was entitled to take it easy. Kobe never ever took his foot off the gas.

Just look at the way Shaq conducts himself on TNT. To this day I don't think he understands that Barkley is the reason people watch and not him.

You sound like you got a problem w/ Shaq haha. It's funny that people are still so mad at Shaq to this day they are criticizing him as thin skinned on TNT. IMO that's a supreme lack of awareness. It's like 'missing the joke completely.' Shaq is insecure a bit, but kinda like Donald Trump, he can use it as a joke.

Shaq does a lot of shit that I don't think is funny on TNT, but I'm not offended by it. It's just like hehhh.

I just think it takes a strange person to be triggered by Shaq. It points to some issues elsewhere. Dude is completely harmless and not polarizing at all, unless you have some dog in the race like KOBE GOAT.

-Smak

[Im Still Ballin]

Yeah, it was talked about back then.

But there are times when I guess a couple of big guys would do that? They would sabotage the team if they got pissed enough. Barkley even said one time on TNT that he would get pissed at times when his teammates wouldn't throw him the ball when he was establishing good post position, so he would camp in the paint for the 3 seconds. He would say something like, "If you don't give me the ball, we going the other way." Here is the clip right here at the 4 min mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcJwYoDy54I#t=03m57s

These are the ones that we hear about, but there might be others that we don't hear about as much. I think Shaq mentioned that he did this a couple of times too, but I don't remember.

I remember when Doc Rivers was also asked about why he set plays for Perkins to get him the ball at the top of the key when he isn't a threat or gonna score. The thought process is that every player needs to get involved in the offense. So, they would get touches even though they aren't going to score. This would make them try harder on defense. Same thing with Shaq, especially during the 3peat years.

But the Shaq and Kobe stuff, both were at fault. Shaq the philosophy of getting "hurt on company time, healing at company time" and Shaq not coming to training camp ready enraged Kobe. And as you said, on the court Kobe would freeze out Shaq at times. Both had big egos. There was criticism for both of them, but I do think Kobe got more of the blame. I think ppl understood why. As you said, it was easier to blame Kobe when you saw on the court that he would be selfish. He would get double team and he wouldn't even think about passing the ball. It was always an issue with him. And Kobe passing the ball to Shaq was an easier fix than motivating Shaq in the off-season to get in shape.

Fantastic post.

[ImKobe]

Tbh KB didn't get criticized nearly as much as the modern athlete does in the social media era.

Sure, the talks of him being a ballhog & selfish were overblown, but he was too dominant in the '01-'03 stretch for there to be that much real criticism. "Ballhog" isn't that bad tbh. The sexual assault case overshadowed all the other shit anyway.

'04 Finals, yeah he still gets criticized too much for it, even though he took the blame for that one I think what hurt them the most was all the injuries and the lack of help from their supporting cast in that series.

Shaq got the ball more vs. DET than in RS and the first 3 rounds of the POs in '04(3.7 extra shots per game compared to the rest of the POs), it's just that Shaq's the only Laker who had a good series, they got nothing (besides a couple D-Fish 3s but he didn't shoot enough) out of their supporting cast. Shaq wasn't saving that series by himself.