Prime for Prime, Kobe was a better scorer than Lebron, had better stats

[Walk on Water]

I always knew this. Lebron has a higher PPG than Kobe, but that's only because Kobe wasn't a starter when he first came into the league. But prime for prime (ages 21-34) Kobe has a higher points per game average than Lebron. It's ironic too because when people think of Kobe, they think of scoring. But Kobe's real advantage over Lebron is his defensive advantage. People assume Lebron plays stellar defense, but his defense actually comes up short when compared to Kobe and many of the greats.

Ages 21-34 Kobe and Lebron both played 1,039 games

Kobe averaged 27.8 points, Lebron averaged 27.6 points. Not to mention that when Kobe was 21, it was a lot harder to score, especially in his earlier years.

Kobe had 96 40 point games to Lebron's 47

Kobe had 24 50 point games to Lebron's 10... (pathetic)

Kobe had 5 60 point games to Lebron's 1.. (wow)

Kobe had an 81 point game

Kobe had 2 scoring titles to Lebron's 1

Lebron's only percentage advantage was shooting 74 percent 0-3 feet from the basket to Kobe's 64 percent
But what do you expect from someone so much bigger?

And 3 pointers 35 percent to Kobe's 34 percent (that's basically nothing)

From 10-16 feet away Kobe shot 44 pct to Lebron's 38 pct. That's a big advantage.

From 16 ft- 3 pt, Kobe shot 41 to Lebron's 39 percent.

Free Throws Kobe 84 percent to Lebron's 73 percent.....

So when you take everything into account, such as the era they started in, the fact Kobe played with Shaq which hurt his PPG slightly, and other things considered, Kobe was actually the better scorer. These stats are solid proof enough... And Kobe was the better offensive rebounder and defensive player.

Lebron has longevity. But you Lebron fans really need to think twice. Kobe was a better competitor. But even when you break down the stats, the proof is in the pudding that Kobe was more skilled. And he played 6 years earlier, in a tougher era.

[Walk on Water]

Wow.. 3 hours later and not a reply. Just like when I exposed Lebron for not being on par with Jokic statistically.

For all you Lebron worshippers.. it’s cool if you think he’s the goat or greater than Kobe. But it’s not a forgone conclusion at all. I’ll give Lebron longevity. But hard to argue for him against Kobe when Kobe’s scoring stats in his prime are as good or better. And Kobe has twice as many all defensive teams. And even though Lebron has more FMVP and is 16-6 vs Kobe, Kobe still has more rings. And cooked him in one on one highlight plays. Just hard to argue when Kobe not only has him beat in intangible attributes, but has him beat in most of the most important factors. You have a lot to cover.

[2qr3]

Wow.. 3 hours later and not a reply. Just like when I exposed Lebron for not being on par with Jokic statistically.

For all you Lebron worshippers.. it’s cool if you think he’s the goat or greater than Kobe. But it’s not a forgone conclusion at all. I’ll give Lebron longevity. But hard to argue for him against Kobe when Kobe’s scoring stats in his prime are as good or better. And Kobe has twice as many all defensive teams. And even though Lebron has more FMVP and is 16-6 vs Kobe, Kobe still has more rings. And cooked him in one on one highlight plays. Just hard to argue when Kobe not only has him beat in intangible attributes, but has him beat in most of the most important factors. You have a lot to cover.

I read your thread. Even if nobody has responded yet, it doesn't mean people aren't paying attention to what you've shared. Your thoughts are being heard. Despite the conspicuous absence of responses, what you wrote was intriguing and thought provoking.

I also rated your thread with 5 stars.

[Im Still Ballin]

Kobe was a skilled scorer who recorded a 105 or 106 TS+ in his prime. This means his true shooting percentage was 5-6% above the league average. Prime Kobe would have a 60.9-61.5% TS if you adjusted for today's league-wide TS%.

58.0% TS x 1.05 = 60.9% TS
58.0% TS x 1.06 = 61.5% TS

Very cool. Very nice. Similar to Shai.

[Walk on Water]

I read your thread. Even if nobody has responded yet, it doesn't mean people aren't paying attention to what you've shared. Your thoughts are being heard. Despite the conspicuous absence of responses, what you wrote was intriguing and thought provoking.

I also rated your thread with 5 stars.



See. Lebron fans will say things like Jordan couldn't win without Pippen. Lebron averaged more rebounds, etc.. But when I break down the stats and show it in a way that does not favor Lebron, they don't want to talk about it. Nobody. Just like when I compared Jokic to prime Lebron and they didn't want to talk.

[SouBeachTalents]

OP worked so hard to accumulate all that data and nobody responded, forcing him to bump his own thread multiple times 9 hours later :(

[StrongLurk]

The problem with overhyping Kobe's scoring is that almost all of his best scoring damage was in the regular season.

He wasn't as prolific as a scorer in the playoffs or finals, unlike Jordan and even Lebron.

Jordan is a way better scorer in the playoffs/finals, and Lebron is a better scorer than Kobe too in the playoffs/finals.

[Im Still Ballin]

The problem with overhyping Kobe's scoring is that almost all of his best scoring damage was in the regular season.

He wasn't as prolific as a scorer in the playoffs or finals, unlike Jordan and even Lebron.

Jordan is a way better scorer in the playoffs/finals, and Lebron is a better scorer than Kobe too in the playoffs/finals.

Kobe's scoring held up well from the regular season into the playoffs. His tremendous scoring diversity and aptitude for difficult shot-making made it hard for defenses to "take away" things from him. Being able to put the ball in the basket in many ways and from several spots on the court makes your scoring robust. Resilient to varying matchups, schemes, and defensive coverages.

97-13 Regular season: 25.5 ppg on 48.7% eFG and 55.5% TS
97-12 Playoffs: 25.6 ppg on 48.0% eFG and 54.1% TS

If you only look at his 00-13 prime...

00-13 Regular season: 27.8 ppg on 48.8% eFG and 55.6% TS
00-12 Playoffs: 27.7 ppg on 48.2% eFG and 54.3% TS

If his Finals numbers seem subpar it's because he tended to do his best work in the Western Conference. Especially the WCF, which was often the "real" Finals.

[Im Still Ballin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jopi5e46PAY&pp=ygUga29iZSBicnlhbnQgdGhpbmtpbmcgYmFza2V0YmFsbCA %3D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5i3UexwTYg&pp=ygUga29iZSBicnlhbnQgdGhpbmtpbmcgYmFza2V0YmFsbCA %3D

[FKAri]

The problem with overhyping Kobe's scoring is that almost all of his best scoring damage was in the regular season.

He wasn't as prolific as a scorer in the playoffs or finals, unlike Jordan and even Lebron.

Jordan is a way better scorer in the playoffs/finals, and Lebron is a better scorer than Kobe too in the playoffs/finals.

OK, let's do it for the millionth time.

So I respond by saying "the West was stronger than the East that's why"

Then you respond with, "but the best defenses were in the East so it's moot"

Then I stick you with the, "but Kobe made tougher shots while defenses were keyed in on him whereas LeBron was being left to go 1 on 1"

We can continue from here because there are about 3-4 different branches we can take at this point in the argument.

[tontoz]

Has OP ever made a thread that wasn't about Lebron?

[sdot_thadon]

Has OP ever made a thread that wasn't about Lebron?

No but it'd be nice if he could at least get one right. Lol

[tpols]

Anybody that watches basketball and has an even remote level of brain function can see Kobe was a better scorer. Lebron requires specific circumstances to score ie dominating the ball with a live dribble and having extreme spacing. He doesn't have Kobes bag or ability.

Westbrook destroys Kyrie in NBA totals for scoring. Who would you say he is the better scorer?

That's an apt analogy.

[BlackMamba8]

bump

[bizil]

Here's the thing... BOTH qualify as great alpha dog type of scorers. So they should be given props for that. Sure Bron is a pass first player. And catches heat by many for being too passive at times in certain moments when it comes to scoring. BUT make no mistake he's an all time great scorer in general. BUT I prefer Kobe because he's the most skilled scorer of all time in my opinon. Some would say KD or a Kyrie. And even though he didn't utilize the three ball as a huge weapon due to the era he played in, I would put MJ up there too. But between Kobe's assassin mentality AND sick scoring skillset, I prefer Mamba over Bron scoring wise.

IF BOTH played on the same team, Bron would be Pippen on steroids as the point forward. While Mamba would be in the MJ lane as the #1 scorer on the team. HELL Bron would tell you that HIS DAMN SELF!!!! Bron and Big O are in their own lane when it comes to scoring. Guys who will average 28-30 PPG BUT would prefer to pass first. Luka is kind of like that as well.

On a lot of people's all time teams where players are chosen out of position at times, MANY put Bron as the PG. BECAUSE he can be like Big O or Magic on steroids at 6'9 250 pounds. NOBODY would ever put Kobe at PG on their all time team. Even though he obviously has all the skills needed to be a great PG, he's best off at the SG. My point is it's ACTUALLY better comparing Kobe to the MJs, KDs, Melos, Hardens, Gervins, etc. of the world scoring wise instead of Bron.

[tpols]

Here's the thing... BOTH qualify as great alpha dog type of scorers. So they should be given props for that. Sure Bron is a pass first player. And catches heat by many for being too passive at times in certain moments when it comes to scoring. BUT make no mistake he's an all time great scorer in general. BUT I prefer Kobe because he's the most skilled scorer of all time in my opinon. Some would say KD or a Kyrie. And even though he didn't utilize the three ball as a huge weapon due to the era he played in, I would put MJ up there too. But between Kobe's assassin mentality AND sick scoring skillset, I prefer Mamba over Bron scoring wise.

IF BOTH played on the same team, Bron would be Pippen on steroids as the point forward. While Mamba would be in the MJ lane as the #1 scorer on the team. HELL Bron would tell you that HIS DAMN SELF!!!! Bron and Big O are in their own lane when it comes to scoring. Guys who will average 28-30 PPG BUT would prefer to pass first. Luka is kind of like that as well.

On a lot of people's all time teams where players are chosen out of position at times, MANY put Bron as the PG. BECAUSE he can be like Big O or Magic on steroids at 6'9 250 pounds. NOBODY would ever put Kobe at PG on their all time team. Even though he obviously has all the skills needed to be a great PG, he's best off at the SG. My point is it's ACTUALLY better comparing Kobe to the MJs, KDs, Melos, Hardens, Gervins, etc. of the world scoring wise instead of Bron.



We saw all of this in the 2008 Olympics when prime Kobe and prime Lebron were teammates. Lebron scored more points against lesser foes in the flow, but when it was crunchtime against real competition not only did Kobe totally outscore Lebron, Wade did too.

[Im Still Ballin]

One of Kobe's low-key legendary playoff performances:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idN7qkMYtmw&pp=ygURa29iZSB2cyB1dGFqIDIwMDk%3D

:bowdown:

Mr. Tough Shot-maker!

[tpols]

One of Kobe's low-key legendary playoff performances:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idN7qkMYtmw&pp=ygURa29iZSB2cyB1dGFqIDIwMDk%3D

:bowdown:

Mr. Tough Shot-maker!

He did that vs Kirilenko aka Ivan Drago too. :lol

[Im Still Ballin]

He did that vs Kirilenko aka Ivan Drago too. :lol

:pimp: Went into Salt Lake City and beat a team that was 33-8 at home to put LA up 3-1. Cold AF.

[warriorfan]

One of Kobe's low-key legendary playoff performances:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idN7qkMYtmw&pp=ygURa29iZSB2cyB1dGFqIDIwMDk%3D

:bowdown:

Mr. Tough Shot-maker!

Kobe reminds me of certain pitchers in baseball that are able to alter their arm angle every single pitch. Usually pitching like shooting you are going for a very consistent motion so it can be replicated exactly over and over. Some pitchers have the ability to just throw it differently almost every time depending on what the situation calls for. It’s something that can’t be taught really. Kobe reminds me of that shooting from different angles and turns, different shot tradjectories, fading different ways, shooting with his left hand.

[tpols]

:pimp: Went into Salt Lake City and beat a team that was 33-8 at home to put LA up 3-1. Cold AF.

Yup.

The thing is Kobe demoralizes defenses. A Lebron layup is whatever. Send more help at the rim and make his 3pt shooters beat you. And they usually do.

Kobe just lights you up under max attention away from the rim. How do you stop that? Just have to hope he gets too greedy and starts missing. But if he isn't missing it's Game. Over.


https://youtu.be/Jir-7B3vkmQ?si=8kHxRx_XSBYkYlZS

^ probably one of the sickest beats I've ever heard btw.

[warriorfan]

Yup.

The thing is Kobe demoralizes defenses. A Lebron layup is whatever. Send more help at the rim and make his 3pt shooters beat you. And they usually do.

Kobe just lights you up under max attention away from the rim. How do you stop that? Just have to hope he gets too greedy and starts missing. But if he isn't missing it's Game. Over.


https://youtu.be/Jir-7B3vkmQ?si=8kHxRx_XSBYkYlZS

^ probably one of the sickest beats I've ever heard btw.

I want to say Jared Dudley talked about that on a show a number of years ago.

He was saying that LeBron will sleepwalk to 30 points and you barely even notice it, you look up at the end of the game and think when did that happen?

With Kobe you felt every single point :lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

One of Kobe's low-key legendary playoff performances:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idN7qkMYtmw&pp=ygURa29iZSB2cyB1dGFqIDIwMDk%3D

:bowdown:

Mr. Tough Shot-maker!

Definitely low-key far as career is concerned.

Post Shaq, I enjoyed Kobe's 50 point game vs Phoenix. His WCF performances in 2009 and 2010. Games 1 vs the Magic in 2009. Games 5 & 6 vs Boston in 2010 etc.

But, G5 vs Denver and G4 vs OKC in 2012...are pretty underrated. In terms of performance and entertainment level. Both came in losses but Kobe was definitely feeling it, especially against Denver. That stretch he had late in the 3rd thru the 4th was unreal. Justin Timberlake was front row that game going crazy lol

[tpols]

I want to say Jared Dudley talked about that on a show a number of years ago.

He was saying that LeBron will sleepwalk to 30 points and you barely even notice it, you look up at the end of the game and think when did that happen?

With Kobe you felt every single point :lol

Lebron generally takes the path of least resistance ie the easiest buckets in the flow. Kobe OTOH would dish those to his teammates and would be the "bail out" guy when the shot clock was low or the take over guy when it mattered most.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe reminds me of certain pitchers in baseball that are able to alter their arm angle every single pitch. Usually pitching like shooting you are going for a very consistent motion so it can be replicated exactly over and over. Some pitchers have the ability to just throw it differently almost every time depending on what the situation calls for. It’s something that can’t be taught really. Kobe reminds me of that shooting from different angles and turns, different shot tradjectories, fading different ways, shooting with his left hand.

Good post.

Reminds me of what Kenny said about Hakeem. Just like him, Kobe had a counter...for a counter :lol

[StrongLurk]

Kobe's scoring held up well from the regular season into the playoffs. His tremendous scoring diversity and aptitude for difficult shot-making made it hard for defenses to "take away" things from him. Being able to put the ball in the basket in many ways and from several spots on the court makes your scoring robust. Resilient to varying matchups, schemes, and defensive coverages.

97-13 Regular season: 25.5 ppg on 48.7% eFG and 55.5% TS
97-12 Playoffs: 25.6 ppg on 48.0% eFG and 54.1% TS

If you only look at his 00-13 prime...

00-13 Regular season: 27.8 ppg on 48.8% eFG and 55.6% TS
00-12 Playoffs: 27.7 ppg on 48.2% eFG and 54.3% TS

If his Finals numbers seem subpar it's because he tended to do his best work in the Western Conference. Especially the WCF, which was often the "real" Finals.

His scoring stats went down in the playoffs/finals compared to the regular season for his prime (even though he played more minutes in the playoffs). That is a factual statement.

The "damage" I am referring to is basically ALL of Kobe's best scoring games/streaks were all regular season. His rate of 30/40/50 point scoring games for sure went down in the playoffs/finals.

MJ and Lebron actually RAISED their scoring output in the playoffs/finals.

I can't stand when people try to act like Kobe is the best scorer/most skilled scorer ever. He's not even a better scorer than Durant and DEFINITELY not a better scorer than MJ.

[LAL]

His scoring stats went down in the playoffs/finals compared to the regular season for his prime (even though he played more minutes in the playoffs). That is a factual statement.

The "damage" I am referring to is basically ALL of Kobe's best scoring games/streaks were all regular season. His rate of 30/40/50 point scoring games for sure went down in the playoffs/finals.

MJ and Lebron actually RAISED their scoring output in the playoffs/finals.

I can't stand when people try to act like Kobe is the best scorer/most skilled scorer ever. He's not even a better scorer than Durant and DEFINITELY not a better scorer than MJ.

Whatever your little stats say, he raised his game and played smart and the right way. He was a monster on both ends from the first minute of the first game of the playoffs unlike lethargic james IF YOU WATCHED the games, you no skill having virgin.. stfu. Everyone knows Kobe was a better player and winner than the fraud.

[SaltyMeatballs]

Kobe was a volume scorer and had more moves which made his scoring "look" better. LeBron has always been an elite scorer and is far more efficient. I want the guy who can score the same amount of points with less shots, so therefore I'm taking LeBron any day of the week.

[warriorfan]

Kobe was a volume scorer and had more moves which made his scoring "look" better. LeBron has always been an elite scorer and is far more efficient. I want the guy who can score the same amount of points with less shots, so therefore I'm taking LeBron any day of the week.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jopi5e46PAY

You should really watch this. Not trying to dissuade you from liking LeBron but your reasoning is far too simplistic.

If you watch this video you will “get it” a lot more.

[LAL]

Kobe was a volume scorer and had more moves which made his scoring "look" better. LeBron has always been an elite scorer and is far more efficient. I want the guy who can score the same amount of points with less shots, so therefore I'm taking LeBron any day of the week.

dumbass fool, keep your opinion to yourself it's useless. I pReFeR sTaTs clown

[ArbitraryWater]

Anybody that watches basketball and has an even remote level of brain function can see Kobe was a better scorer. Lebron requires specific circumstances to score ie dominating the ball with a live dribble and having extreme spacing. He doesn't have Kobes bag or ability.


So, why does LeBron score better every time it matters most?

Every single time?

Against top 10 defenses, last second shots, last 2 minutes, 4th quarters, game 7s, elimination games, finals…

Every single time, LeBron scores more, AND at a higher rate.

When does this situation arise, where Kobe‘s superior scoring ability comes to the forefront?

Where is it?


BTW: No one is talking about totals. The irony that thats all Kobe fans talked about 2010-2014 or so.

[RRR3]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jopi5e46PAY

You should really watch this. Not trying to dissuade you from liking LeBron but your reasoning is far too simplistic.

If you watch this video you will “get it” a lot more.
Not sure how linking a video from a guy who has LeBron ranked as GOAT and Kobe outside the top 10 helps your case.

[warriorfan]

So, why does LeBron score better every time it matters most?

Every single time?

Against top 10 defenses, last second shots, last 2 minutes, 4th quarters, game 7s, elimination games, finals…

Every single time, LeBron scores more, AND at a higher rate.

When does this situation arise, where Kobe‘s superior scoring ability comes to the forefront?

Where is it?


BTW: No one is talking about totals. The irony that thats all Kobe fans talked about 2010-2014 or so.

At least acknowledge when Kobe entered the league, the league average was less than 100 points per game.

By the time LeBron joined the league they were already opening up the league with rule changes, especially geared towards perimeter players

[warriorfan]

Not sure how linking a video from a guy who has LeBron ranked as GOAT and Kobe outside the top 10 helps your case.

You are a like a rabid animal frothing at the mouth. You can’t even read. I clearly stated it has nothing to do with LeBron, just the poster’s reasoning about Kobe was simplistic and doesn’t really get the whole picture, and this video will help with that. It’s a great video, it’s unbiased, i’m pretty sure that guy who makes it doesn’t even like kobe. It’s not about kobe and lebron. It’s just learning more about the game and appreciating the sport. I would tell you to give it a watch but you are a lost cause.

Seriously never quote any of my posts ever again.

[RRR3]

You are a like a rabid animal frothing at the mouth. You can’t even read. I clearly stated it has nothing to do with LeBron, just the poster’s reasoning about Kobe was simplistic and doesn’t really get the whole picture, and this video will help with that. It’s a great video, it’s unbiased, i’m pretty sure that guy who makes it doesn’t even like kobe. It’s not about kobe and lebron. It’s just learning more about the game and appreciating the sport. I would tell you to give it a watch but you are a lost cause.

Seriously never quote any of my posts ever again.
Or what? You'll report me? :roll:

[warriorfan]

Or what? You'll report me? :roll:

Go away.

[ILLsmak]

Wow.. 3 hours later and not a reply.

Why reply to something that is obviously true and everyone knows it's true? Nobody doubts that. Kobe was an amazing scorer in his prime lol. Dudes could be like 'yeah.'

-Smak

[ILLsmak]

Kobe was a volume scorer and had more moves which made his scoring "look" better. LeBron has always been an elite scorer and is far more efficient. I want the guy who can score the same amount of points with less shots, so therefore I'm taking LeBron any day of the week.

This is the only dude who has come in so far and straight up said LeBron is a better scorer. And this is ISH. Think about that for a sec.

-Smak

[tontoz]

Kobe's shot selection was too much like the fat guy on a see food diet. He had no sense of restraint.

[Baller234]

When the game is truly on the line, you are way safer with the ball in Kobe's hands than Lebron's. You can pull out whatever bullshit stats and figures you want. The guy isn't even reliable from the free throw line.

Lebron is either going to settle for a long range three or he's going to drive to the basket and pray like hell. He won't be able to create a decent look for himself from midrange, both because he doesn't have the ability and also because he doesn't want the responsibility. It's easier to forgive someone when they miss a long three, that's why he takes them so often. When you're a superstar there's less excuses when you miss a mid range shot.

Lebron James could never do what Kobe did in Game 4 of the 2006 playoffs against the Suns.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-04-2015/GtUVzd.gif

In that moment there was literally nothing the Suns could do. He got the exact shot he wanted. The game was entirely in Kobe's hands. Literal God mode.

[FKAri]

Anyways, it's close but it's Kobe.

LeBron's better at finding the path of least resistance whereas Kobe was better at overcoming the resistance. LeBron's better at exploiting defensive lapses and has better snap decision making. But when all alternate play options are eliminated and a great defense with no holes is keyed on you, Kobe is able to outshine LeBron. Although LeBron's better than Kobe in many other aspects of offense, winning games at the highest level often come down to that scenario.

[SATAN]

Not sure how linking a video from a guy who has LeBron ranked as GOAT and Kobe outside the top 10 helps your case.


Or what? You'll report me? :roll:

:yaohappy:

[StrongLurk]

Whatever your little stats say, he raised his game and played smart and the right way. He was a monster on both ends from the first minute of the first game of the playoffs unlike lethargic james IF YOU WATCHED the games, you no skill having virgin.. stfu. Everyone knows Kobe was a better player and winner than the fraud.

:roll:

Hey, if we all ignore facts like you just did in your post, then anybody can just say anything! How about I say Kobe never even played in the NBA? Guess because I said it, then it must be true since the facts don't matter :rockon:

[StrongLurk]

When the game is truly on the line, you are way safer with the ball in Kobe's hands than Lebron's. You can pull out whatever bullshit stats and figures you want. The guy isn't even reliable from the free throw line.

Lebron is either going to settle for a long range three or he's going to drive to the basket and pray like hell. He won't be able to create a decent look for himself from midrange, both because he doesn't have the ability and also because he doesn't want the responsibility. It's easier to forgive someone when they miss a long three, that's why he takes them so often. When you're a superstar there's less excuses when you miss a mid range shot.

Lebron James could never do what Kobe did in Game 4 of the 2006 playoffs against the Suns.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-04-2015/GtUVzd.gif

In that moment there was literally nothing the Suns could do. He got the exact shot he wanted. The game was entirely in Kobe's hands. Literal God mode.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-26-2018/fam7ot.gif

https://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LeBron-James-4th-Quarter-Shot-Gm-7-NBA-Finals.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-11-2019/vG5Hqy.gif

[RRR3]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-26-2018/fam7ot.gif

https://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LeBron-James-4th-Quarter-Shot-Gm-7-NBA-Finals.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-11-2019/vG5Hqy.gif
"LeBron could never do something he's done MORE times than Kobe did" is quite a take :roll: Dude is braindead

[SouBeachTalents]

"LeBron could never do something he's done MORE times than Kobe did" is quite a take :roll: Dude is braindead
Whatever your little stats say, he raised his game and played smart and the right way. He was a monster on both ends from the first minute of the first game of the playoffs unlike lethargic james IF YOU WATCHED the games, you no skill having virgin.. stfu. Everyone knows Kobe was a better player and winner than the fraud.

[tontoz]

I remember Kobe's clutch numbers being pretty bad, sub 40%.

[Baller234]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-26-2018/fam7ot.gif

https://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LeBron-James-4th-Quarter-Shot-Gm-7-NBA-Finals.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-11-2019/vG5Hqy.gif

1. Great shot but he's settling for a three when it's a tie score. You're only proving my point. He loves settling for threes because there's less pressure and less accountability if he doesn't make it.

2. Great shot but the Heat are up here, the Lakers were down. There's also 30 seconds left. Not the same as hitting a last second buzzer beater down 1. There's WAYYY less pressure on Lebron. Also you could tell that wasn't the shot he was looking for, he was just capitalizing on the lapse in D.

3. Great shot but not something he can safely or consistently rely on.


None of these are comparable to the Kobe shot against PHX, where gets the ball at midcourt down 1 and everyone in the gym knows who's taking the shot and they can't do anything about it.

[StrongLurk]

1. Great shot but he's settling for a three when it's a tie score. You're only proving my point. He loves settling for threes because there's less pressure and less accountability if he doesn't make it.

2. Great shot but the Heat are up here, the Lakers were down. There's also 30 seconds left. Not the same as hitting a last second buzzer beater down 1. There's WAYYY less pressure on Lebron. Also you could tell that wasn't the shot he was looking for, he was just capitalizing on the lapse in D.

3. Great shot but not something he can safely or consistently rely on.


None of these are comparable to the Kobe shot against PHX, where gets the ball at midcourt down 1 and everyone in the gym knows who's taking the shot and they can't do anything about it.

You need to get better at trolling.

[Baller234]

You need to get better at trolling.

Uh, I gave you a detailed breakdown as to why the random shots you posted weren't comparable to Kobe's.

I'm sorry your feelings were hurt.

[Walk on Water]

Bump

[StrongLurk]

Bump

TLDR - Lebron is a better scorer and has better stats, especially in the playoffs/finals where it matters most.

I posted the actual numbers earlier in the thread.

[3ba11]

Kobe is a better scorer because he can carry the scoring load (need less help) while playing a great brand of ball (winning)

otoh, Lebron is a high-scoring ball-dominator and therefore not capable of a high-assist team or maximum strategic capacity/coaching..

hence the massive gap in team ceiling/Finals record between the 2 players.

[SouBeachTalents]

hence the massive gap in team ceiling/Finals record between the 2 players.
shaq

[StrongLurk]

Kobe is a better scorer because he can carry the scoring load (need less help) while playing a great brand of ball (winning)

otoh, Lebron is a high-scoring ball-dominator and therefore not capable of a high-assist team or maximum strategic capacity/coaching..

hence the massive gap in team ceiling/Finals record between the 2 players.

Lebron - 4 FMVPs
Kobe - 2 FMVPs

That's all that needs to be said.

[BlackMamba8]

Lebron - 4 FMVPs
Kobe - 2 FMVPs

That's all that needs to be said.

5 chips to 3 chips you idiot.....shut your mouth before I shut it

[ArbitraryWater]

Whatever your little stats say, he raised his game and played smart and the right way. He was a monster on both ends from the first minute of the first game of the playoffs unlike lethargic james IF YOU WATCHED the games, you no skill having virgin.. stfu. Everyone knows Kobe was a better player and winner than the fraud.


:oldlol:

[Axe]

Op is a casual.

[WhiteKyrie]

5 chips to 3 chips you idiot.....shut your mouth before I shut it
4 for Kobe as an alpha caliber superstar player
3-4 for LeBron as an alpha caliber superstar player

And the quality of 2012, 2016, and 2020 rings are all kind of shitty by comparison too. AD has been the Lakers actual best player since he arrived in 2020

[SouBeachTalents]

4 for Kobe as an alpha caliber superstar player
3-4 for LeBron as an alpha caliber superstar player

And the quality of 2012, 2016, and 2020 rings are all kind of shitty by comparison too. AD has been the Lakers actual best player since he arrived in 2020
Managed to be wrong on virtually every point, no easy task.

[ShawkFactory]

1. Great shot but he's settling for a three when it's a tie score. You're only proving my point. He loves settling for threes because there's less pressure and less accountability if he doesn't make it.

2. Great shot but the Heat are up here, the Lakers were down. There's also 30 seconds left. Not the same as hitting a last second buzzer beater down 1. There's WAYYY less pressure on Lebron. Also you could tell that wasn't the shot he was looking for, he was just capitalizing on the lapse in D.

3. Great shot but not something he can safely or consistently rely on.


None of these are comparable to the Kobe shot against PHX, where gets the ball at midcourt down 1 and everyone in the gym knows who's taking the shot and they can't do anything about it.

In the first one there wasn't really time to do anything else. I think pretty much everyone is pulling the 3 there. The only other option would be trying like an 18 foot floater or something.

[WhiteKyrie]

We saw all of this in the 2008 Olympics when prime Kobe and prime Lebron were teammates. Lebron scored more points against lesser foes in the flow, but when it was crunchtime against real competition not only did Kobe totally outscore Lebron, Wade did too.

Not just in gold medal game either.

Argentina and Spain were the best comp and Kobe played the best against both of them, as well as Wade. That’s when Bron realized he could stat pad through 3 and ride better more alpha and clutch time performers to amass cheap rings on his resume.

When the going gets tough, Bron gets to quitting.

[WhiteKyrie]

Managed to be wrong on virtually every point, no easy task.

Someone is triggered. You’re no jury. Bron’s dick too far down your throat “South Beach Talents” :roll: that must be YOUR talent

[3ba11]

Does Kobe need spacing like Lebron's stiff arm does?

Obviously not because Kobe was an expert jumpshooter that can shoot over defenses or bad spacing whenever he wants, while also playing off-ball and being the possession-finisher.

So Kobe would fit well in previous eras that lacked spacing because he could shoot over packed paints regularly, while Lebron would suffer from having to shoot over packed paints with his low-efficiency mid-range game - the packed paints and higher physicality would turn Lebron into a passive facilitator like Magic or Kidd (spotty-shooting ball-dominators).. We see Kobe's superiority in international play that has weaker spacing and higher physicality - Kobe thrives and has the quick instinct and touch required of higher-traffic basketball (advanced basketball)

[StrongLurk]

4 for Kobe as an alpha caliber superstar player
3-4 for LeBron as an alpha caliber superstar player

And the quality of 2012, 2016, and 2020 rings are all kind of shitty by comparison too. AD has been the Lakers actual best player since he arrived in 2020

2012 Playoff Run - 30.3 PER, .284 WS/48, 10.5 BPM, 3.1 VORP, 57.6 TS%

2016 Playoff Run - 30 PER, .274 WS/48, 11.0 BPM, 2.7 VORP, 58.5 TS%

2020 Playoff Run - 30.2 PER, .269 WS/48, 10.7 BPM, 2.4 VORP, 64.7 TS%

FMVPs to go with all of those runs too.

Kobe NEVER sniffed these numbers. But sure, they are all "kind of shitty" :roll:

[StrongLurk]

5 chips to 3 chips you idiot.....shut your mouth before I shut it

I guess Derek Fisher is as good as Kobe Bryant. FYI Kobe NEVER won a ring without Derek Fisher. Kobe needed "Fisher-ball" to bail his ass out with clutch shots every playoff series.

[SouBeachTalents]

Someone is triggered. You’re no jury. Bron’s dick too far down your throat “South Beach Talents” :roll: that must be YOUR talent
Tell me about it, next thing you know he's gonna be defending the size of his dick.

[ArbitraryWater]

The 08 Olympics justifications are hilarious


Bron outshines Kobe every step of the way last 2 minutes, 24 seconds, finals, game 7s, elimination games, and even the 2 shared Olympic games they played, but look at the last 12 minutes of the 2008 OG final!


It shows that Kobe is so much more reliable when it comes down to it!


:oldlol::facepalm

a year where leBron was not a good shooter yet, didnt have one of his best 10-12 seasons, and Kobe was the MVP and face of the league.. of course it was up to him to take those shots.


Its funny how those same standards for the OG final all of a sudden disappear when its the NBA finals, or elimination games, or game 7s, or games vs top 5 defenses, or or or...

[Nowitness]

LBJ had 9 40+ point playoff games in 2018. Kobe had 11 his entire career.

LBJ averaged more PPG in his first ever playoff series than Kobe averaged in any series he ever played in.

In elimination games/Game 7s, LBJ averaged 34/11/9/2/2 on 49% shooting. Kobe averaged 22/4/4/1/1 on 41% shooting.

LBJ has 5 playoff buzzer beaters. Kobe has 1.

That's all I need to know. Fair play though, Kobe was more likely to score 60 in a meaningless game in January vs a lottery team.

[ImKobe]

LBJ had 9 40+ point playoff games in 2018. Kobe had 11 his entire career.

LBJ averaged more PPG in his first ever playoff series than Kobe averaged in any series he ever played in.

In elimination games/Game 7s, LBJ averaged 34/11/9/2/2 on 49% shooting. Kobe averaged 22/4/4/1/1 on 41% shooting.

LBJ has 5 playoff buzzer beaters. Kobe has 1.

That's all I need to know. Fair play though, Kobe was more likely to score 60 in a meaningless game in January vs a lottery team.

So this is what the KB haters & Bran stans do.. the league had a much higher pace and scoring became much easier after the 2000s.. which has helped Lebron's numbers a lot. His Finals numbers from '07-'14 pale in comparison to what he did after his prime because of the direction the league went in.. KB never had the opportunity to do the same.

Also, KB averaged 22/8/5 on 39% shooting in Game 7s, and considering that some of them were blowouts where he did not force the issue in the 2nd half (Suns and Rockets Game 7s for example), I don't think he performed poorly at all. The Boston game put a dent in his FG% average, but he delivered down the stretch of that game and got his team the W. He has a 5 - 1 record in those games. The elimination game stuff, a lot of it is skewed due to his early years from '97-'99, when he was not in a star role.

If we go prime for prime, from '07 - '10 Playoffs:

Kobe averaged 30/6/5/2/1 on 56.8%TS
Lebron averaged 29/9/8/2/1 on 56.1%TS

So I agree with OP. KB was the better scorer at the time. Lebron dominated the ball more and had a team built around him to compliment his play style as much as possible (a lot of spacing with him running everything) for him to max out his averages with how much he had the ball, compared to KB, who played off-ball a lot with less shooting around him. Both had great scoring seasons in the 2000s, but KB's 31.6 ppg on 58%TS was better than Lebron's best scoring season (31.4 ppg on 56.8%TS) from that era.

[1987_Lakers]

If we go prime for prime, from '07 - '10 Playoffs:

Kobe averaged 30/6/5/2/1 on 56.8%TS
Lebron averaged 29/9/8/2/1 on 56.1%TS


This clown is nitpicking once again, imagine not including 2012-2018 as LeBron's prime. :oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

LBJ had 9 40+ point playoff games in 2018. Kobe had 11 his entire career.

LBJ averaged more PPG in his first ever playoff series than Kobe averaged in any series he ever played in.

In elimination games/Game 7s, LBJ averaged 34/11/9/2/2 on 49% shooting. Kobe averaged 22/4/4/1/1 on 41% shooting.

LBJ has 5 playoff buzzer beaters. Kobe has 1.

That's all I need to know. Fair play though, Kobe was more likely to score 60 in a meaningless game in January vs a lottery team.

:cheers:

[ImKobe]

This clown is nitpicking once again, imagine not including 2012-2018 as LeBron's prime. :oldlol:

Yeah, let's just compare Bran's stats from an era (an era where it's much easier to score, and where a past-prime Lebron put up better scoring numbers than his peak self) that Kobe did not play in.

[Axe]

Yeah, let's just compare Bran's stats from an era (an era where it's much easier to score, and where a past-prime Lebron put up better scoring numbers than his peak self) that Kobe did not play in.
Interesting to see what kobe's numbers would be like if he's able to play in today's era. Could they be worse?

[1987_Lakers]

Yeah, let's just compare Bran's stats from an era (an era where it's much easier to score, and where a past-prime Lebron put up better scoring numbers than his peak self) that Kobe did not play in.

And Why did you leave out 2006? :oldlol:

[StrongLurk]

This clown is nitpicking once again, imagine not including 2012-2018 as LeBron's prime. :oldlol:

Kobe stans are the KINGS of nitpicking only specific moments/sections in Kobe's career when comparing to Lebron/MJ. It's because that HAVE to do that, otherwise it's pretty clear on the whole the LBJ/MJ > Kobe.

[Baller234]

You can't compare the league from 2012-2018 to the league that existed during Kobe's prime. Two totally different games. This is why you'll never able to make your case using just numbers and stats.

But if Lebron's fans couldn't cite numbers and stats, they wouldn't be able to have conversations at all.

[ImKobe]

Kobe stans are the KINGS of nitpicking only specific moments/sections in Kobe's career when comparing to Lebron/MJ. It's because that HAVE to do that, otherwise it's pretty clear on the whole the LBJ/MJ > Kobe.

No, it's because if you want to look at the actual context between who was a better scorer, it only makes sense to look at their scoring numbers when both played in the same era, and when both were in their primes.

KB already had the disadvantage of the early 2000s that affected his efficiency numbers, and people use that to compare those numbers to the 2010/2020s players to say he wasn't really that good, but then you actually look at the league average and the other elite wings from that era & realize that he was more efficient than most players while carrying a superstar load.

[ShawkFactory]

You can't compare the league from 2012-2018 to the league that existed during Kobe's prime. Two totally different games. This is why you'll never able to make your case using just numbers and stats.

But if Lebron's fans couldn't cite numbers and stats, they wouldn't be able to have conversations at all.

Sure you could have the Kobe/Lebron conversation and sway it in Bron's favor without using stats.

EDIT: Forgot we were talking purely as a scorer. No, Kobe was a better pure scorer than Bron. I was speaking more as overall players.

[tpols]

Not just in gold medal game either.

Argentina and Spain were the best comp and Kobe played the best against both of them, as well as Wade. That’s when Bron realized he could stat pad through 3 and ride better more alpha and clutch time performers to amass cheap rings on his resume.

When the going gets tough, Bron gets to quitting.

Yup.

That's the amazing thing to me. We literally saw them play together on the same team in their primes and Kobe saved them from another humiliating defeat with his scoring and specifically his scoring in the clutch in the highest stakes affairs.

Saying Lebron is a better scorer than Kobe because of NBA longevity totals is like saying Westbrook is a better scorer than Kyrie or Karl Malone is a better scorer than Durant. It's just a totally flawed argument.

[FKAri]

Amazing that after all these years these threads look exactly the same. Every point and counter point is just following a written script that we've already read.


Yup.

That's the amazing thing to me. We literally saw them play together on the same team in their primes and Kobe saved them from another humiliating defeat with his scoring and specifically his scoring in the clutch in the highest stakes affairs.

Saying Lebron is a better scorer than Kobe because of NBA longevity totals is like saying Westbrook is a better scorer than Kyrie or Karl Malone is a better scorer than Durant. It's just a totally flawed argument.

Kobe got lit up by his man and took the most shots on the team. LeBron looked confused when off the ball. Wade had the best performance that night but he also had the most comfortable role on the team that tournament.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yup.

That's the amazing thing to me. We literally saw them play together on the same team in their primes and Kobe saved them from another humiliating defeat with his scoring and specifically his scoring in the clutch in the highest stakes affairs.

Saying Lebron is a better scorer than Kobe because of NBA longevity totals is like saying Westbrook is a better scorer than Kyrie or Karl Malone is a better scorer than Durant. It's just a totally flawed argument.
I'd say averaging more ppg in the regular season, playoffs, Finals, Game 7's, elimination games etc. is very likely the argument they go with, not having more career points.

[tpols]

Amazing that after all these years these threads look exactly the same. Every point and counter point is just following a written script that we've already read.



Kobe got lit up by his man and took the most shots on the team. LeBron looked confused when off the ball. Wade had the best performance that night but he also had the most comfortable role on the team that tournament.

The coach of the 2008 Olympic team had this to day about Kobes defensive leadership in that run.



“When we were starting to build a culture at USA basketball, and [Bryant], Chauncey Billups and Jason Kidd were added. … We’re getting ready for Beijing, I’m with my staff in Vegas…and all of a sudden there’s a knock on the door, two days early, and it’s Kobe. He said, ‘I want to guard the best perimeter player on every team that we play.’ Now, he’s the NBA scoring champ, he’s the best player in the league at that time. … And he knew that he would have to change a little bit and be a leader.

“And then he pauses — and, you know him and Jordan had the same eyes, they killed you with their eyes — and he leans forward and he said, ‘Coach, I promise you I’ll destroy ’em.’...

“He had this vision of moments. He knew that for us to win the gold medal we would have to beat Argentina … and he wanted to guard Ginobili. Believe me, he already had that figured out. It wasn’t just to set an example for the team. … So, we do play Argentina in the semis, and we’re beating them by 20 points and Ginobili gets hurt … and it becomes a six-point game, because now [Kobe’s] not interested anymore. That’s who he was.”


Not only was Kobe a better scorer, he was a better defender as well.

A lot of you guys talk like Kobe was this one dimensional player who could only score but he's quite literally one of the best defensive guards ever too and led 5 championship teams in assists.

A lot of ignorance in this thread... it's almost like you guys never saw Kobe play basketball.

[tpols]

I'd say averaging more ppg in the regular season, playoffs, Finals, Game 7's, elimination games etc. is very likely the argument they go with, not having more career points.

In Kobes two best Championship runs ~ 2001 and 2009 no series even went to 7 games and the Lakers were never even in an elimination game from the losing side.

You don't get brownie points for getting crushed in a series early. It's more impressive to dominate right out of the gate.

[ShawkFactory]

Amazing that after all these years these threads look exactly the same. Every point and counter point is just following a written script that we've already read.



Kobe got lit up by his man and took the most shots on the team. LeBron looked confused when off the ball. Wade had the best performance that night but he also had the most comfortable role on the team that tournament.

Ain’t that the truth.

[FKAri]

The coach of the 2008 Olympic team had this to day about Kobes defensive leadership in that run.



Not only was Kobe a better scorer, he was a better defender as well.

A lot of you guys talk like Kobe was this one dimensional player who could only score but he's quite literally one of the best defensive guards ever too and led 5 championship teams in assists.

A lot of ignorance in this thread... it's almost like you guys never saw Kobe play basketball.

None of this is relevant to what I said but I understand that some of y'all just see red when someone brings up LeBron and Kobe.

- I'm only talking about 1 game not the whole tourney run.
- That tournament is not a meaningful reflection of their basketball ability: see Tim Duncan in 04.
- Kobe was the best man defender on that team over the whole run(largely because it was the role he was given) but that was just a bad night for him.
- 5 different guys could have led that team in scoring and it would have meant nothing other than how they chose to run the offense.
- 2008 Kobe > 2008 LeBron as an overall player

So none of these arguments get us anywhere.

[paksat]

Bringing up stats for different eras is so cringe. A better metric is just analyzing the skill of the player himself. Who has a better jumpshot? Better 1v1 skill? Better pick and roll player? Better 3 point shot? Better 2 point shot?

Lebrons size is why he is able to do what he does. If he was 6 foot, just lol at how his game would translate. That's what real skill is, taking size out of the equation and seeing if their game still translates. Allen Iverson with kobes skill set or lebrons instead of his own.. which would translate better?

Look at another thing too, the competition level. Guards in the early 2000s were crazy skilled. Ray Allen, Gilbert arenas, Allen Iverson, Tracy mcgrady, I mean even the tier 2 guards like Michael Finley and such can light you up from inside and outside the 3 point line. Kobe is having to guard that while also handling his scoring load. Guards now shoot 3s, their skill set is mainly predicated on that besides a few peeps like ja morant.

Anyway this a LeBron love fest forum so this will fall on deaf ears. Kobes own worst enemy was always himself, bad shot selection, uncoachable by Phil Jackson's own words, complete d*ck to both opponents and teammates.

[SouBeachTalents]

In Kobes two best Championship runs ~ 2001 and 2009 no series even went to 7 games and the Lakers were never even in an elimination game from the losing side.

You don't get brownie points for getting crushed in a series early. It's more impressive to dominate right out of the gate.
C'mon bruh, you don't know the Lakers had a Game 7 in '09 :lol

Even if you want to take away Game 7's/elimination games, he still has the ppg advantage in the regular season, playoffs & Finals.

[hiphopanonymous]

Peak/Prime Kobe's stats in today's era would be insane. Harden averaged what, 36? Peak Kobe might have averaged 40 that season. Prime Kobe would have hit 30+ for the past 6 straight years.

[StrongLurk]

No, it's because if you want to look at the actual context between who was a better scorer, it only makes sense to look at their scoring numbers when both played in the same era, and when both were in their primes.

KB already had the disadvantage of the early 2000s that affected his efficiency numbers, and people use that to compare those numbers to the 2010/2020s players to say he wasn't really that good, but then you actually look at the league average and the other elite wings from that era & realize that he was more efficient than most players while carrying a superstar load.

So you think Kobe's prime ended in 2010 and Lebron's prime started in 07? Because that is what your implying by only using 2007-2010 numbers.

[tpols]

C'mon bruh, you don't know the Lakers had a Game 7 in '09 :lol

Even if you want to take away Game 7's/elimination games, he still has the ppg advantage in the regular season, playoffs & Finals.

I remembered it right after I posted but cmon man... that game was over by the 2nd quarter. The Rockets were down double digits after the 1st quarter and down by 20 at halftime. They put up 70 points in the game and that midget pg Aaron Brooks was their leading scorer. They didn't even need Kobe to do anything there.

And I'm looking at the history... most of Kobes Game 7s ended with total scores in the 70s and 80s. Imagine that today... where teams throw up 115 points every game.

And the ironic thing is he won all of the most important Game 7s in his career ~ vs Portland in 2000, vs Kings in 2002, and vs Celtics in 2010. So he won in a bunch of lower scoring battles and still got hate, and people use today's numbers like they match up with those tougher to score points in eras. Which makes no sense.

[ImKobe]

So you think Kobe's prime ended in 2010 and Lebron's prime started in 07? Because that is what your implying by only using 2007-2010 numbers.

Ok..

Playoffs

'08-'10 Kobe - 30/6/6 56.9%TS
'11-'13 Lebron - 27/9/6 57.5%TS

It's not like Lebron's numbers changed that much over the next 3 yrs in the POs...

[Axe]

I remembered it right after I posted but cmon man... that game was over by the 2nd quarter. The Rockets were down double digits after the 1st quarter and down by 20 at halftime. They put up 70 points in the game and that midget pg Aaron Brooks was their leading scorer. They didn't even need Kobe to do anything there.

And I'm looking at the history... most of Kobes Game 7s ended with total scores in the 70s and 80s. Imagine that today... where teams throw up 115 points every game.

And the ironic thing is he won all of the most important Game 7s in his career ~ vs Portland in 2000, vs Kings in 2002, and vs Celtics in 2010. So he won in a bunch of lower scoring battles and still got hate, and people use today's numbers like they match up with those tougher to score points in eras. Which makes no sense.
Vs kings in the 2002 wcf was a very controversial one. No need to tell you why.

[1987_Lakers]

In Kobes two best Championship runs ~ 2001 and 2009 no series even went to 7 games and the Lakers were never even in an elimination game from the losing side.

You don't get brownie points for getting crushed in a series early. It's more impressive to dominate right out of the gate.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elbej-_bzxA

[ILLsmak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elbej-_bzxA

I love how Phil starts looking like Steve Martin when he gets pissed.

-Smak

[Nowitness]

I remembered it right after I posted but cmon man... that game was over by the 2nd quarter. The Rockets were down double digits after the 1st quarter and down by 20 at halftime. They put up 70 points in the game and that midget pg Aaron Brooks was their leading scorer. They didn't even need Kobe to do anything there.

And I'm looking at the history... most of Kobes Game 7s ended with total scores in the 70s and 80s. Imagine that today... where teams throw up 115 points every game.

And the ironic thing is he won all of the most important Game 7s in his career ~ vs Portland in 2000, vs Kings in 2002, and vs Celtics in 2010. So he won in a bunch of lower scoring battles and still got hate, and people use today's numbers like they match up with those tougher to score points in eras. Which makes no sense.

Kobe Game 7s:
2000 v Portland - 84-89
2002 v Sacramento - 106-112
2006 v Phoenix - 121-90
2009 v Houston - 70-89
2010 v Boston - 79-83
2012 v Denver - 87-96
Kobe's Game 7 averages - 22.2/8/5/1.3/1 on 39/37/67 splits

Lebron Game 7s:
2006 v Detroit - 79-61
2008 v Boston - 97-92
2012 v Boston - 88-101
2013 v Indiana - 73-99
2013 v San Antonio - 88-95
2016 v Golden State - 89-93
2018 v Indiana - 101-105
2018 v Boston - 79-87
LeBron's Game 7 averages - 35/10/5.6/1.8/1 on 49/33/78 splits

Failing to see anything in those box scores that would reflect the insane disparity statistically. Kobe also didn't play a Game 7 until 2000 when he was All-NBA and All-Defence, or after his achilles injury.

[StrongLurk]

Ok..

Playoffs

'08-'10 Kobe - 30/6/6 56.9%TS
'11-'13 Lebron - 27/9/6 57.5%TS

It's not like Lebron's numbers changed that much over the next 3 yrs in the POs...

Lol Bron's prime obviously started in the 08-09 season. And it seems like you are deadset on saying the last year in Kobe's prime was 2010...so that only gives us two years to compare which isn't helpful at all to be honest. But using your logic of ONLY using stats for when they were both in their prime...LBJ comes out ahead.

Reg
08-'10 Kobe - 27/5/5, 55.4 TS%
08-'10 Lebron - 29/7/8, 59.8 TS%

Playoffs
08-'10 Kobe - 30/6/5.5, 56.5 TS%
08-'10 Lebron - 33/9/7, 61.4 TS%

[leBron Bieber]

Kobe is legendary but he did blow a 3-1 lead in one of his most iconic series ( post shaq)

[rawimpact]

08 Olympics should tell you everything you need to know. An Alpha amongst alphas... (except chris bosh)

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2008/08/24/sports/olympics/600-bball.jpg

[Nowitness]

08 Olympics should tell you everything you need to know. An Alpha amongst alphas... (except chris bosh)

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2008/08/24/sports/olympics/600-bball.jpg

Why did that alpha wait until year 12, when he was pushing 30 to go? Almost every great player of the last 25 years nutted up and played by year 6.

[tpols]

Why did that alpha wait until year 12, when he was pushing 30 to go? Almost every great player of the last 25 years nutted up and played by year 6.

Kobe got hurt in the 2000 Finals right before the Olympics and was dealing with the rape trial and some injuries in 2004 as well. Just accept it bro. 2008 prime for prime on the same team we saw the truth. If it wasn't totally obvious before that it was afterwards.

[1987_Lakers]

Kobe got hurt in the 2000 Finals right before the Olympics and was dealing with the rape trial and some injuries in 2004 as well. Just accept it bro. 2008 prime for prime on the same team we saw the truth. If it wasn't totally obvious before that it was afterwards.

We saw LeBron outplay Kobe in ever statistical category during the Olympics. LeBron and Wade were seen as the two best performers.

But, for arguments sake lets say you are right. Does that mean Barkley is better than MJ because he outplayed him during the '92 Olympics? :lol

[tpols]

Barkley was arguably on par with MJ in the early 90s. He even won MVP over him after the Dream Team. But the 1992 team routed everybody. They were never in a competitive match. The 2008 team otoh were on the brink of losing to Spain before the Mamba saved them.

Lebron did what he typically does and beat up on the lesser opponents and let the big boys Kobe and Wade win Gold when the outcome was uncertain.

[1987_Lakers]

Barkley was arguably on par with MJ in the early 90s.

This is straight BS, nobody was saying Barkley was a better player than MJ or even on par.

[StrongLurk]

Kobe got hurt in the 2000 Finals right before the Olympics and was dealing with the rape trial and some injuries in 2004 as well. Just accept it bro. 2008 prime for prime on the same team we saw the truth. If it wasn't totally obvious before that it was afterwards.

The Olympics don't determine who the better NBA player is :roll:

Bron's real prime started in the 08-09 season right after the Olympics however.

Reg
08-'10 Kobe - 27/5/5, 55.4 TS%
08-'10 Lebron - 29/7/8, 59.8 TS%

Playoffs
08-'10 Kobe - 30/6/5.5, 56.5 TS%
08-'10 Lebron - 33/9/7, 61.4 TS%

Still though, major shoutout to Kobe for getting those back-to-back rings/FMVPs. That run solidified Kobe as a top 8 player of all time.

[tpols]

The Olympics don't determine who the better NBA player is :roll:

Bron's real prime started in the 08-09 season right after the Olympics however.

Reg
08-'10 Kobe - 27/5/5, 55.4 TS%
08-'10 Lebron - 29/7/8, 59.8 TS%

Playoffs
08-'10 Kobe - 30/6/5.5, 56.5 TS%
08-'10 Lebron - 33/9/7, 61.4 TS%

Still though, major shoutout to Kobe for getting those back-to-back rings/FMVPs. That run solidified Kobe as a top 8 player of all time.

Lebron got those stats while losing as heavy 60+ win favorites before ultimately quitting in the 2010 playoffs and running off to join prime Wade in Miami.

While Kobe got his stats winning rings playing in a high level system ~ The Triangle, which isn't going to afford as much stat padding as playing Luka AAU style.

[1987_Lakers]

Lebron got those stats while losing as heavy 60+ win favorites before ultimately quitting in the 2010 playoffs and running off to join prime Wade in Miami.

While Kobe got his stats winning rings playing in a high level system ~ The Triangle, which isn't going to afford as much stat padding as playing Luka AAU style.

He had a better team. LeBron was basically a one man show in Cleveland. Kobe had the best 2nd option in the NBA in Pau. Imagine LeBron shooting 6/24 in a game 7 during that time and still winning, isn't happening.

[tpols]

He had a better team. LeBron was basically a one man show in Cleveland. Kobe had the best 2nd option in the NBA in Pau. Imagine LeBron shooting 6/24 in a game 7 during that time and still winning, isn't happening.

Pau shot 6/16 in that game so he didn't exactly light it up. That's trash help from a 2nd option center.

But it was a low scoring game. Kobe had the most points on either team and pulled down 15 rebounds as a shooting guard. Overall for the series he averaged 29/8/4/2 on respectable efficiency considering how much of a slow paced defensive battle it was. He also had the best DRTG on the team.

You guys can keep the AAU stats and upset losses, I'll take the rings. Cleveland had HCA and was favored in those 2009 and 2010 series so acting like they were underdogs is pure revisionist history.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe was honestly probably the 3rd best player on the Lakers in that Game 7. Great accomplishment though that he managed to score the most points taking 6 more shots than anybody else while ALSO shooting 15 FT's :lol

[Nowitness]

I remembered it right after I posted but cmon man... that game was over by the 2nd quarter. The Rockets were down double digits after the 1st quarter and down by 20 at halftime. They put up 70 points in the game and that midget pg Aaron Brooks was their leading scorer. They didn't even need Kobe to do anything there.

And I'm looking at the history... most of Kobes Game 7s ended with total scores in the 70s and 80s. Imagine that today... where teams throw up 115 points every game.

And the ironic thing is he won all of the most important Game 7s in his career ~ vs Portland in 2000, vs Kings in 2002, and vs Celtics in 2010. So he won in a bunch of lower scoring battles and still got hate, and people use today's numbers like they match up with those tougher to score points in eras. Which makes no sense.

Kobe Game 7s:
2000 v Portland - 84-89
2002 v Sacramento - 106-112
2006 v Phoenix - 121-90
2009 v Houston - 70-89
2010 v Boston - 79-83
2012 v Denver - 87-96
Kobe's Game 7 averages - 22.2/8/5/1.3/1 on 39/37/67 splits

Lebron Game 7s:
2006 v Detroit - 79-61
2008 v Boston - 97-92
2012 v Boston - 88-101
2013 v Indiana - 73-99
2013 v San Antonio - 88-95
2016 v Golden State - 89-93
2018 v Indiana - 101-105
2018 v Boston - 79-87
LeBron's Game 7 averages - 35/10/5.6/1.8/1 on 49/33/78 splits

Failing to see anything in those box scores that would reflect the insane disparity statistically. In actuality, in Kobe's game 7s the average score for each team was 92 PPG, in LBJs game 7s it was 89 PPG.

iKobe also didn't play a Game 7 until 2000 when he was All-NBA and All-Defence, or after his achilles injury.

[ShawkFactory]

Pau shot 6/16 in that game so he didn't exactly light it up. That's trash help from a 2nd option center.

But it was a low scoring game. Kobe had the most points on either team and pulled down 15 rebounds as a shooting guard. Overall for the series he averaged 29/8/4/2 on respectable efficiency considering how much of a slow paced defensive battle it was. He also had the best DRTG on the team.

You guys can keep the AAU stats and upset losses, I'll take the rings. Cleveland had HCA and was favored in those 2009 and 2010 series so acting like they were underdogs is pure revisionist history.

This is why Kobe/Lebron arguments are so stupid. The things people on both sides are willing to say is just nonsense.

Pau had 19/18 in that game. Including 9 offensive rebounds. That was literally the difference in the game. They dominated the offensive glass 23-8 and won by 4.

[tpols]

This is why Kobe/Lebron arguments are so stupid. The things people on both sides are willing to say is just nonsense.

Pau had 19/18 in that game. Including 9 offensive rebounds. That was literally the difference in the game. They dominated the offensive glass 23-8 and won by 4.

Yes and Kobe had 23/15.

They both shot poorly especially when you consider Kobe faced more doubles and a higher level of defensive attention, but like I said it was a very low scoring ugly game where literally everybody but Artest shot poorly.

And Cleveland had HCA and were favored in their 2009 and 2010 losses so the whole "Cavs had a way worse team and had no chance" argument is bullshit.

Furthermore, in 2008 despite Lebron having one of the worst series in his playoff career, Cleveland took the Celtics to 7, while Kobes help could only take them to 6 with Pau getting destroyed by KG. So their help wasn't that far off. In 2010 the Lakers and Cavs were the top 2 favorites in the league with similar odds to win the championship.

[ShawkFactory]

Yes and Kobe had 23/15.

They both shot poorly especially when you consider Kobe faced more doubles and a higher level of defensive attention, but like I said it was a very low scoring ugly game where literally everybody but Artest shot poorly.

And Cleveland had HCA and were favored in their 2009 and 2010 losses so the whole "Cavs had a way worse team and had no chance" argument is bullshit.

Furthermore, in 2008 despite Lebron having one of the worst series in his playoff career, Cleveland took the Celtics to 7, while Kobes help could only take them to 6 with Pau getting destroyed by KG. So their help wasn't that far off. In 2010 the Lakers and Cavs were the top 2 favorites in the league with similar odds to win.

I don't care about anything else you said. Just insinuating that Pau was trash help in that game when he had 9 offensive rebounds in a 4 point game is wild.

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron got those stats while losing as heavy 60+ win favorites before ultimately quitting in the 2010 playoffs and running off to join prime Wade in Miami.

While Kobe got his stats winning rings playing in a high level system ~ The Triangle, which isn't going to afford as much stat padding as playing Luka AAU style.

Yeah it's not like Kobe could take a ton of shots, the mythical triangle would prevent that right?

[tpols]

I don't care about anything else you said. Just insinuating that Pau was trash help in that game when he had 9 offensive rebounds in a 4 point game is wild.

The point that's flying over your head is that if Kobe was trash so was Pau. They literally had the same line in that game and Kobe was doing it under more defensive attention. You bring up Paus rebounding but not Kobes 15 boards at the guard position and lock down defense on Rondo who had tore up the eastern conference that year and was honestly Bostons best player up until the Finals.

[ShawkFactory]

The point that's flying over your head is that if Kobe was trash so was Pau. They literally had the same line in that game and Kobe was doing it under more defensive attention. You bring up Paus rebounding but not Kobes 15 boards at the guard position and lock down defense on Rondo who had tore up the eastern conference that year and was honestly Bostons best player up until the Finals.

It's not a "point" that's flying over my head. I already said that the Kobe/Lebron dialogue is stupid. I don't care about whatever you were talking about before.

What gets missed so much on the pro-Kobe side though is how much of a problem the Laker's size was for teams during that stretch. Doesn't matter what numbers Bynum or Pau or Odom had. They were bigger than everyone (even Kobe for his position) and always won the rebounding battle.

People get hung up on certain second options vs others in the help discussion and it's dumb. Pau > Mo Williams therefore Kobe had more help. Or some version of that in the other direction. Stupid.

[Baller234]

Sure you could have the Kobe/Lebron conversation and sway it in Bron's favor without using stats.

EDIT: Forgot we were talking purely as a scorer. No, Kobe was a better pure scorer than Bron. I was speaking more as overall players.

I'm sure you CAN make a case for Lebron without using stats. Just saying I often rarely see it. Everytime I see people arguing in favor of Lebron, regardless of the topic, they can't help but lean on imaginary criterias. They are especially obsessed with true shooting percentage, which of course is a made up category that doesn't measure a god damn thing. There are worse players than Lebron with higher true shooting percentages.

As for Lebron being a better "overall" player, who cares? What does that even mean? By that same argument, wouldn't Kobe be a better "overall" scorer? And if the object of the game is to put the ball in the hoop, and Kobe is superior in that regard, wouldn't that mean Kobe was better than Lebron at the most important thing there is in basketball?

[ShawkFactory]

I'm sure you CAN make a case for Lebron without using stats. Just saying I often rarely see it. Everytime I see people arguing in favor of Lebron, regardless of the topic, they can't help but lean on imaginary criterias. They are especially obsessed with true shooting percentage, which of course is a made up category that doesn't measure a god damn thing. There are worse players than Lebron with higher true shooting percentages.

As for Lebron being a better "overall" player, who cares? What does that even mean? By that same argument, wouldn't Kobe be a better "overall" scorer? And if the object of the game is to put the ball in the hoop, and Kobe is superior in that regard, wouldn't that mean Kobe was better than Lebron at the most important thing there is in basketball?

It means “basketball player”.

[StrongLurk]

I'm sure you CAN make a case for Lebron without using stats. Just saying I often rarely see it. Everytime I see people arguing in favor of Lebron, regardless of the topic, they can't help but lean on imaginary criterias. They are especially obsessed with true shooting percentage, which of course is a made up category that doesn't measure a god damn thing. There are worse players than Lebron with higher true shooting percentages.

As for Lebron being a better "overall" player, who cares? What does that even mean? By that same argument, wouldn't Kobe be a better "overall" scorer? And if the object of the game is to put the ball in the hoop, and Kobe is superior in that regard, wouldn't that mean Kobe was better than Lebron at the most important thing there is in basketball?

This guy just snitched on himself for being a moron :lol

[Baller234]

It means “basketball player”.

Hmm, interesting. James Harden is #8 all time in triple doubles.

By that same logic, Harden is a better overall player than Shaquille O'Neal.

[ShawkFactory]

Hmm, interesting. James Harden is #8 all time in triple doubles.

By that same logic, Harden is a better overall player than Shaquille O'Neal.

Did I say anything about triple doubles?

I don't recall doing so. In fact I think my point was making an argument without using stats.

So idk what you're talking about.

[Baller234]

Did I say anything about triple doubles?

I don't recall doing so. In fact I think my point was making an argument without using stats.

So idk what you're talking about.

You said Lebron was a better "overall" player than Kobe. I presume because you think he does more things better on the floor outside of just being able to score in isolation.

Is that not what you meant? Because if that's your logic, then James Harden is a better "overall" player than Shaq.

[ShawkFactory]

You said Lebron was a better "overall" player than Kobe. I presume because you think he does more things better on the floor outside of just being able to score in isolation.

Is that not what you meant? Because if that's your logic, then James Harden is a better "overall" player than Shaq.

It is, yes.

Harden also scored more than Shaq at his peak. So by your logic Harden > Shaq based just on scoring alone. No need to bring up “overall” there.

[Baller234]

It is, yes.

Harden also scored more than Shaq at his peak. So by your logic Harden > Shaq based just on scoring alone. No need to bring up “overall” there.

The best scorer isn't always the one with the highest PPG. Harden was a great scorer but like Shaq he had strengths and weaknesses. That applies to Lebron too.

None of them had the total and complete skill set that Kobe had. That on top of being a stone cold killer who wasn't afraid to take over.

[ShawkFactory]

The best scorer isn't always the one with the highest PPG. Harden was a great scorer but like Shaq he had strengths and weaknesses. That applies to Lebron too.

None of them had the total and complete skill set that Kobe had. That on top of being a stone cold killer who wasn't afraid to take over.

What I was acknowledging with the "overall" game wasn't really the standard rebounding, passing, defense, scoring but more the little things. Lebrons size, strength, coordination, overall athleticism, and IQ allowed for him to dictate a game like very few in history can.

In his prime he was perhaps the best 50/50 ball guy I've ever seen. If the ball is loose it's his, and the amount of possessions that it won and/or saved is so valuable and doesn't show up on the stat sheet really except the occasional steal or rebound. But not only did he have that innate ability to go get the ball but once he had it, he had the ability to make incredibly quick decisions while in chaos that led to easy buckets for himself or others.

Plus, much like Giannis, the physical nature or the way he played was tough. The constant energy, strength, and attacking mindset was a load to handle for a full 48 minutes.

This is of course on top of being a great passer and scorer as well.

As much as people turn their noses up to it and want to discuss the "bag", size and athleticism matter in basketball and Lebron used his natural gifts in an incredibly efficient and intelligent way.

[Baller234]

What I was acknowledging with the "overall" game wasn't really the standard rebounding, passing, defense, scoring but more the little things. Lebrons size, strength, coordination, overall athleticism, and IQ allowed for him to dictate a game like very few in history can.

In his prime he was perhaps the best 50/50 ball guy I've ever seen. If the ball is loose it's his, and the amount of possessions that it won and/or saved is so valuable and doesn't show up on the stat sheet really except the occasional steal or rebound. But not only did he have that innate ability to go get the ball but once he had it, he had the ability to make incredibly quick decisions while in chaos that led to easy buckets for himself or others.

Plus, much like Giannis, the physical nature or the way he played was tough. The constant energy, strength, and attacking mindset was a load to handle for a full 48 minutes.

This is of course on top of being a great passer and scorer as well.

As much as people turn their noses up to it and want to discuss the "bag", size and athleticism matter in basketball and Lebron used his natural gifts in an incredibly efficient and intelligent way.

Lebron can dictate the game for 46 minutes but so can a lot of all time greats. What separates the men from the boys is who can dictate the game in the final moments. That's why in Game 7 of the 2016 finals when the score was tied with under a minute left, Cleveland drew up a play for Kyrie and used Lebron as a decoy. All Lebron did that play was inbound the ball and run off to the side. From that point on the game was totally out of his hands.

I repeat, game 7 of the NBA finals... and the game was totally out of Lebron's hands.

Now you could say Lebron was just being a smart player and knew when to defer, but I'm sorry I would rather have the guy on my team that doesn't need to defer.

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron can dictate the game for 46 minutes but so can a lot of all time greats. What separates the men from the boys is who can dictate the game in the final moments. That's why in Game 7 of the 2016 finals when the score was tied with under a minute left, Cleveland drew up a play for Kyrie and used Lebron as a decoy. All Lebron did that play was inbound the ball and run off to the side. From that point on the game was totally out of his hands.

I repeat, game 7 of the NBA finals... and the game was totally out of Lebron's hands.

Now you could say Lebron was just being a smart player and knew when to defer, but I'm sorry I would rather have the guy on my team that doesn't need to defer.

And that's completely fair. And why I think that it's such an interesting conversation between those two (or it used to be before ISH bludgeoned it over and over and over to the nth degree). I think Lebron has more overall to offer and a greater impact in those 46 minutes. But yes I would trust Kobe with the ball in his hands more in the last couple possessions.

[StrongLurk]

Lebron can dictate the game for 46 minutes but so can a lot of all time greats. What separates the men from the boys is who can dictate the game in the final moments. That's why in Game 7 of the 2016 finals when the score was tied with under a minute left, Cleveland drew up a play for Kyrie and used Lebron as a decoy. All Lebron did that play was inbound the ball and run off to the side. From that point on the game was totally out of his hands.

I repeat, game 7 of the NBA finals... and the game was totally out of Lebron's hands.

Now you could say Lebron was just being a smart player and knew when to defer, but I'm sorry I would rather have the guy on my team that doesn't need to defer.

More narrative dumb shit. You are choosing to see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear.

The fact are Lebron is one of the most clutch playoff performers of all time. ALL TIME.

You can nitpick literally any players career and be like "see, they didn't do that one thing in the last 2 minutes of the game".

[Baller234]

And that's completely fair. And why I think that it's such an interesting conversation between those two (or it used to be before ISH bludgeoned it over and over and over to the nth degree). I think Lebron has more overall to offer and a greater impact in those 46 minutes. But yes I would trust Kobe with the ball in his hands more in the last couple possessions.

Lebron is dominant but not to the point where he can just guarantee a blowout. Not when it's the playoffs or the finals and you're playing another really good team. A lot of games are going to come down to those final few possessions.

This has always been Lebron's achilles heel. He's not a liability in those situations like Shaq is but his value definitely drops.

[Baller234]

More narrative dumb shit. You are choosing to see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear.

The fact are Lebron is one of the most clutch playoff performers of all time. ALL TIME.

You can nitpick literally any players career and be like "see, they didn't do that one thing in the last 2 minutes of the game".

Hey genius, this isn't a narrative. This is what actually happened. At the end of the day Lebron deferred to another player.

It's Game 7 of the finals. It doesn't get any more clutch than that.

[Lebron23]

No lebron averaged more points than kobe in the regular season nba playoffs and nba finals. And he shot a higher percentage from the field.

[ImKobe]

No lebron averaged more points than kobe in the regular season nba playoffs and nba finals. And he shot a higher percentage from the field.

Not when they both played in the same era in the 2000s. Already gave you the '07-'10 Playoffs stretch and I already told you that Kobe had better peak scoring Regular Seasons, both in ppg and TS% in that era.

[LAL]

What I was acknowledging with the "overall" game wasn't really the standard rebounding, passing, defense, scoring but more the little things. Lebrons size, strength, coordination, overall athleticism, and IQ allowed for him to dictate a game like very few in history can.

In his prime he was perhaps the best 50/50 ball guy I've ever seen. If the ball is loose it's his, and the amount of possessions that it won and/or saved is so valuable and doesn't show up on the stat sheet really except the occasional steal or rebound. But not only did he have that innate ability to go get the ball but once he had it, he had the ability to make incredibly quick decisions while in chaos that led to easy buckets for himself or others.

Plus, much like Giannis, the physical nature or the way he played was tough. The constant energy, strength, and attacking mindset was a load to handle for a full 48 minutes.

This is of course on top of being a great passer and scorer as well.

As much as people turn their noses up to it and want to discuss the "bag", size and athleticism matter in basketball and Lebron used his natural gifts in an incredibly efficient and intelligent way.

:roll::roll:

See this is why you bronsexuals need to stick with stats, this is pathetic :oldlol::oldlol:

His game is a joke, it's overrated and flawed, don't care that he has 2 more assists and rebounds per game in his bron system than Kobe's. Jokic, Luka, Harden were a lot more dominant, skillful and had better overal stats, those are the one's you need to compare your idol with.. but if you want to talk pure basketball greatness and being a winner, Kobe is waay out of his league so foh with your "best 50/50 ball guy I've ever seen.".

[LAL]

And that's completely fair. And why I think that it's such an interesting conversation between those two (or it used to be before ISH bludgeoned it over and over and over to the nth degree). I think Lebron has more overall to offer and a greater impact in those 46 minutes. But yes I would trust Kobe with the ball in his hands more in the last couple possessions.

Another wrong opinion

[ShawkFactory]

:roll::roll:

See this is why you bronsexuals need to stick with stats, this is pathetic :oldlol::oldlol:

His game is a joke, it's overrated and flawed, don't care that he has 2 more assists and rebounds per game in his bron system than Kobe's. Jokic, Luka, Harden were a lot more dominant, skillful and had better overal stats, those are the one's you need to compare your idol with.. but if you want to talk pure basketball greatness and being a winner, Kobe is waay out of his league so foh with your "best 50/50 ball guy I've ever seen.".

I know I shouldn’t be but I’m genuinely embarrassed for you.

[3ba11]

What I was acknowledging with the "overall" game wasn't really the standard rebounding, passing, defense, scoring but more the little things. Lebrons size, strength, coordination, overall athleticism, and IQ allowed for him to dictate a game like very few in history can.


It's funny because I can show highlights of Curry, MJ, Kobe or Bird manipulating entire defenses to set up teammates, but the reality is that those kinds of plays are supposed to be occasional - no one is supposed to try and play that way all the time because it actually alienates teammates and makes them spot-up or play-finishers more than their true capability.. A star like Lebron must be able to play off teammates more seamlessly instead of just dominating the ball and "dictating" every possession.. That's super-man ball and it's immature and wins at low rates regardless of cast.. Otoh, advanced players (guys that can play off teammates very well) understand that there's a time and a place for the "dictating" plays but otherwise the job is to elevate and play off teammates so the chemistry and winning can be maximized - if a player isn't good enough to get their all-time stats in this format then they aren't good enough or at least not as good as Curry, MJ, Kobe or Bird..

Btw, Shaq needs to be within 5 feet to start really bullying his man, while Lebron is the first player that can bully his man from 30 feet away all the way to the hoop the entire way.. But that's Lebron's only real strength at scoring, otherwise he isn't a great "scorer" where he has the skill to actually elude defensive attention, or shoot over them.. He can only run them over until defenses start stifling him at a sufficient rate that he must rely more on lesser teammates to bail out possessions - this is where the blame game begins and never ends because it's a losing, solvable brand of ball that requires more talent than anyone ever had..

Of course, Lebron's inability to "get hot" frequently allows defenses to stay at home and just meet him at the rim with multiple defenders like they would a normal penetrator - no need to double-team a bricklayer on the perimeter, which hurts Lebron's teammates by making them more covered than Kobe, MJ or Curry's teammates (hot jumpshooters that always got doubled on nearly every possession)

So Lebron dictates games to an extent, but who cares about dictating losses via Luka-ball stat-padding - that isn't winning and cannot achieve a perennial favorite with any lineup - 21 years has shown this.. It's checkers compared to the chess played by superior scorers that can actually elude defenses, or shoot over them, or play off teammates.. This opens up the strategic capacity/coaching of teams so the entire team is playing a superior brand of higher-scoring basketball that puts more pressure on defenses than a simpleton Lebron drive-and-kick (which is a simple play executed by nearly anyone btw).

Of course, people will be brainwashed and won't realize that Lebron didn't start averaging more assists than Jordan in the playoffs until Curry's spacing era made offense easier for everyone from 2015 onwards.. Otherwise, Jordan averaged more assists for the first 9 years of their playoff careers (thru half their chips.. 85-93' vs 06-14')

[SouBeachTalents]

It's funny because I can show highlights of Curry, MJ, Kobe or Bird manipulating entire defenses to set up teammates, but the reality is that those kinds of plays are supposed to be occasional - no one is supposed to try and play that way all the time because it actually alienates teammates and makes them spot-up or play-finishers more than their true capability.. A star like Lebron must be able to play off teammates more seamlessly instead of just dominating the ball and "dictating" every possession.. That's super-man ball and it's immature and wins at low rates regardless of cast.. Otoh, advanced players (guys that can play off teammates very well) understand that there's a time and a place for the "dictating" plays but otherwise the job is to elevate and play off teammates so the chemistry and winning can be maximized - if a player isn't good enough to get their all-time stats in this format then they aren't good enough or at least not as good as Curry, MJ, Kobe or Bird..

Btw, Shaq needs to be within 5 feet to start really bullying his man, while Lebron is the first player that can bully his man from 30 feet away all the way to the hoop the entire way.. But that's Lebron's only real strength at scoring, otherwise he isn't a great "scorer" where he has the skill to actually elude defensive attention, or shoot over them.. He can only run them over until defenses start stifling him at a sufficient rate that he must rely more on lesser teammates to bail out possessions - this is where the blame game begins and never ends because it's a losing, solvable brand of ball that requires more talent than anyone ever had..

Of course, Lebron's inability to "get hot" frequently allows defenses to stay at home and just meet him at the rim with multiple defenders like they would a normal penetrator - no need to double-team a bricklayer on the perimeter, which hurts Lebron's teammates by making them more covered than Kobe, MJ or Curry's teammates (hot jumpshooters that always got doubled on nearly every possession)

So Lebron dictates games to an extent, but who cares about dictating losses via Luka-ball stat-padding - that isn't winning and cannot achieve a perennial favorite with any lineup - 21 years has shown this.. It's checkers compared to the chess played by superior scorers that can actually elude defenses, or shoot over them, or play off teammates.. This opens up the strategic capacity/coaching of teams so the entire team is playing a superior brand of higher-scoring basketball that puts more pressure on defenses than a simpleton Lebron drive-and-kick (which is a simple play executed by nearly anyone btw).

Of course, people will be brainwashed and won't realize that Lebron didn't start averaging more assists than Jordan in the playoffs until Curry's spacing era made offense easier for everyone from 2015 onwards.. Otherwise, Jordan averaged more assists for the first 9 years of their playoff careers (thru half their chips.. 85-93' vs 06-14')
1-9

[Axe]

1-9
:roll:

[StrongLurk]

Hey genius, this isn't a narrative. This is what actually happened. At the end of the day Lebron deferred to another player.

It's Game 7 of the finals. It doesn't get any more clutch than that.

It's a "narrative" because you are cherry picking one moment that goes against the facts that occurred. Did you forget that Lebron actually had the last scoring attempt for the Cavs in that game? Almost an and-1 dunk on Green? Lebron had a ton of clutch moments in the 2016 finals. In fact, he averaged almost 10ppg in the 4th quarters alone in the 2016 finals on 50/33/76 splits. What did Kyrie do in the 4th quarters of the 2016 finals? 5ppg on 35/29/89 splits :lol

Remember when Lebron hit the dagger against the Spurs in game 7, then stole the ball the next play, got fouled, and made two free throws to seal the 2013 finals?

Shit man, we can go on and on. Lebron is one of the most clutch playoff performers off all time.

The FACTS show this. Kobe is elite but his scoring performances were, at best, equal to Lebron's performances.

[aj1987]

This is not even a debate. LeBron is miles ahead of Kobe as a scorer. Consistency is the KEY. Kobe was never consistent.

Also, this data is insane old:

Kobe in the Playoffs:

5640 points in 220 PO games

LeBron in the Playoffs:

7631 in 266 PO games

+2000 points in 46 games more played for LeBron (about 44 PPG)

Kobe PPG in the PO's:

25.6 PPG

LeBron PPG in the PO's:

28.7 PPG

+3.1 PPG

Kobe efficiency in the PO's:

54.1% TS

LeBron efficiency in the PO's:

58.3% TS

+4.2% more efficient

In short, LeBron scores 3.1 PPG more than Kobe in the PO's on 4.2% better efficiency.

Doesn't end there.

50 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 1 (you Brick turds consider his to be the GOAT scorer and he has ONE 50pt game in the PO's? :lol)

LeBron - 1

45 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 5

LeBron - 11

40 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 13

LeBron - 28

35 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 39

LeBron - 61

30 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 88

LeBron - 118

25 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 123

LeBron - 183

20 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 167

LeBron - 237

LeBron has scored under 20 points only 28 times in his career. Kobe did it 53 times. There's something Kobe can beat LeBron at. :lol

I know you idiots are going to say LeBron was facing wack competition in the East.

Lets look at the Finals numbers, shall we?

Kobe PPG in the Finals:

25.3 PPG

LeBron PPG in the Finals:

28.5PPG

Kobe efficiency in the Finals:

51% TS

LeBron efficiency in the Finals:

58% TS

LeBron scores 3 more PPG on 7% better efficiency than Kobe in the Finals. LeBron does this while facing significantly better competition, BTW.

Lets go in a bit deeper.

50 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 0

LeBron - 1

45 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 0

LeBron - 1

40 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 1 (:roll: :roll: :roll:)

LeBron - 8

35 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 4

LeBron - 16

30 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 13

LeBron - 28

25 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 22

LeBron - 51

20 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 30

LeBron - 64

[SouBeachTalents]

This is not even a debate. LeBron is miles ahead of Kobe as a scorer. Consistency is the KEY. Kobe was never consistent.

Also, this data is insane old:

Kobe in the Playoffs:

5640 points in 220 PO games

LeBron in the Playoffs:

7631 in 266 PO games

+2000 points in 46 games more played for LeBron (about 44 PPG)

Kobe PPG in the PO's:

25.6 PPG

LeBron PPG in the PO's:

28.7 PPG

+3.1 PPG

Kobe efficiency in the PO's:

54.1% TS

LeBron efficiency in the PO's:

58.3% TS

+4.2% more efficient

In short, LeBron scores 3.1 PPG more than Kobe in the PO's on 4.2% better efficiency.

Doesn't end there.

50 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 1 (you Brick turds consider his to be the GOAT scorer and he has ONE 50pt game in the PO's? :lol)

LeBron - 1

45 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 5

LeBron - 11

40 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 13

LeBron - 28

35 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 39

LeBron - 61

30 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 88

LeBron - 118

25 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 123

LeBron - 183

20 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 167

LeBron - 237

LeBron has scored under 20 points only 28 times in his career. Kobe did it 53 times. There's something Kobe can beat LeBron at. :lol

I know you idiots are going to say LeBron was facing wack competition in the East.

Lets look at the Finals numbers, shall we?

Kobe PPG in the Finals:

25.3 PPG

LeBron PPG in the Finals:

28.5PPG

Kobe efficiency in the Finals:

51% TS

LeBron efficiency in the Finals:

58% TS

LeBron scores 3 more PPG on 7% better efficiency than Kobe in the Finals. LeBron does this while facing significantly better competition, BTW.

Lets go in a bit deeper.

50 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 0

LeBron - 1

45 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 0

LeBron - 1

40 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 1 (:roll: :roll: :roll:)

LeBron - 8

35 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 4

LeBron - 16

30 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 13

LeBron - 28

25 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 22

LeBron - 51

20 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 30

LeBron - 64
Listen stat nerd, Kobe’s a better scorer than LeBron, it’s called the eye test. Try actually watching the games sometime instead of relying on a stat sheet.

[SpaceJammeR]

This is not even a debate. LeBron is miles ahead of Kobe as a scorer. Consistency is the KEY. Kobe was never consistent.

Also, this data is insane old:

Kobe in the Playoffs:

5640 points in 220 PO games

LeBron in the Playoffs:

7631 in 266 PO games

+2000 points in 46 games more played for LeBron (about 44 PPG)

Kobe PPG in the PO's:

25.6 PPG

LeBron PPG in the PO's:

28.7 PPG

+3.1 PPG

Kobe efficiency in the PO's:

54.1% TS

LeBron efficiency in the PO's:

58.3% TS

+4.2% more efficient

In short, LeBron scores 3.1 PPG more than Kobe in the PO's on 4.2% better efficiency.

Doesn't end there.

50 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 1 (you Brick turds consider his to be the GOAT scorer and he has ONE 50pt game in the PO's? :lol)

LeBron - 1

45 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 5

LeBron - 11

40 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 13

LeBron - 28

35 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 39

LeBron - 61

30 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 88

LeBron - 118

25 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 123

LeBron - 183

20 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 167

LeBron - 237

LeBron has scored under 20 points only 28 times in his career. Kobe did it 53 times. There's something Kobe can beat LeBron at. :lol

I know you idiots are going to say LeBron was facing wack competition in the East.

Lets look at the Finals numbers, shall we?

Kobe PPG in the Finals:

25.3 PPG

LeBron PPG in the Finals:

28.5PPG

Kobe efficiency in the Finals:

51% TS

LeBron efficiency in the Finals:

58% TS

LeBron scores 3 more PPG on 7% better efficiency than Kobe in the Finals. LeBron does this while facing significantly better competition, BTW.

Lets go in a bit deeper.

50 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 0

LeBron - 1

45 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 0

LeBron - 1

40 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 1 (:roll: :roll: :roll:)

LeBron - 8

35 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 4

LeBron - 16

30 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 13

LeBron - 28

25 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 22

LeBron - 51

20 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 30

LeBron - 64

this has to be fake

[paksat]

Stats just don't tell the whole story and never will

Kobe in the West vs LeBron in the... East, with most of the best East players on his team

Does stats factor that in?

[1987_Lakers]

Stats just don't tell the whole story and never will

Kobe in the West vs LeBron in the... East, with most of the best East players on his team

Does stats factor that in?

Wouldn't that hurt his scoring stats?

[StrongLurk]

Stats just don't tell the whole story and never will

Kobe in the West vs LeBron in the... East, with most of the best East players on his team

Does stats factor that in?

Lol what? You mean both players are in the NBA? What a shocking statement. There is a west and an east...good job figuring that out buddy.

[Nowitness]

Stats just don't tell the whole story and never will

Kobe in the West vs LeBron in the... East, with most of the best East players on his team

Does stats factor that in?

You know for the majority of their careers the East was the far superior defensive conference compared to the West? Hence why Brick was shooting 40% in NBA finals.

[Axe]

Stats just don't tell the whole story and never will

Kobe in the West vs LeBron in the... East, with most of the best East players on his team

Does stats factor that in?
And chauncey billups won first a finals mvp over him.

[WhiteKyrie]

1-9
*4* for 10

[Baller234]

It's a "narrative" because you are cherry picking one moment that goes against the facts that occurred. Did you forget that Lebron actually had the last scoring attempt for the Cavs in that game? Almost an and-1 dunk on Green? Lebron had a ton of clutch moments in the 2016 finals. In fact, he averaged almost 10ppg in the 4th quarters alone in the 2016 finals on 50/33/76 splits. What did Kyrie do in the 4th quarters of the 2016 finals? 5ppg on 35/29/89 splits :lol

Remember when Lebron hit the dagger against the Spurs in game 7, then stole the ball the next play, got fouled, and made two free throws to seal the 2013 finals?

Shit man, we can go on and on. Lebron is one of the most clutch playoff performers off all time.

The FACTS show this. Kobe is elite but his scoring performances were, at best, equal to Lebron's performances.

Lmao, the Cavs were already up 3 with under 20 seconds left and he was cutting to the hoop for a feed. That's not quite the same as running off to the corner when the game was tied.

You're here arguing that Lebron is one of the most clutch players ever, or at least more clutch than Kobe, yet in the most high stakes possession of his entire career... he wanted no part of it.

Kobe is demanding the ball in that situation.

[Lebron23]

This is not even a debate. LeBron is miles ahead of Kobe as a scorer. Consistency is the KEY. Kobe was never consistent.

Also, this data is insane old:

Kobe in the Playoffs:

5640 points in 220 PO games

LeBron in the Playoffs:

7631 in 266 PO games

+2000 points in 46 games more played for LeBron (about 44 PPG)

Kobe PPG in the PO's:

25.6 PPG

LeBron PPG in the PO's:

28.7 PPG

+3.1 PPG

Kobe efficiency in the PO's:

54.1% TS

LeBron efficiency in the PO's:

58.3% TS

+4.2% more efficient

In short, LeBron scores 3.1 PPG more than Kobe in the PO's on 4.2% better efficiency.

Doesn't end there.

50 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 1 (you Brick turds consider his to be the GOAT scorer and he has ONE 50pt game in the PO's? :lol)

LeBron - 1

45 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 5

LeBron - 11

40 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 13

LeBron - 28

35 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 39

LeBron - 61

30 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 88

LeBron - 118

25 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 123

LeBron - 183

20 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 167

LeBron - 237

LeBron has scored under 20 points only 28 times in his career. Kobe did it 53 times. There's something Kobe can beat LeBron at. :lol

I know you idiots are going to say LeBron was facing wack competition in the East.

Lets look at the Finals numbers, shall we?

Kobe PPG in the Finals:

25.3 PPG

LeBron PPG in the Finals:

28.5PPG

Kobe efficiency in the Finals:

51% TS

LeBron efficiency in the Finals:

58% TS

LeBron scores 3 more PPG on 7% better efficiency than Kobe in the Finals. LeBron does this while facing significantly better competition, BTW.

Lets go in a bit deeper.

50 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 0

LeBron - 1

45 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 0

LeBron - 1

40 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 1 (:roll: :roll: :roll:)

LeBron - 8

35 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 4

LeBron - 16

30 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 13

LeBron - 28

25 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 22

LeBron - 51

20 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 30

LeBron - 64
aj1987 just ended the thread

[tpols]

You know for the majority of their careers the East was the far superior defensive conference compared to the West? Hence why Brick was shooting 40% in NBA finals.

A nonsense argument since he wouldn't be facing GOAT defenses like the 2004 Pistons and 2008 Celtics in every round.

More like the Brandon Jennings Monta Ellis Bucks, Iggy Evan Turner Sixers, Drummond Stanley Johnson Pistons and Jeff Teague Millsap Horford Hawks.

[WhiteKyrie]

Late 80s Pistons
Early 90s Knicks
Early 90s Bulls
Late 90s Heat
Late 90s Sonics
Late 90s Bulls
Early 00s Spurs
Mid 00s Pistons
Mid 00s Spurs
Late 00s Celtics
Late 00s Lakers

Are the best team defenses ever that I’ve seen.


A nonsense argument since he wouldn't be facing GOAT defenses like the 2004 Pistons and 2008 Celtics in every round.

More like the Brandon Jennings Monta Ellis Bucks, Iggy Evan Turner Sixers, Drummond Stanley Johnson Pistons and Jeff Teague Millsap Horford Hawks.
True. But what he says is also correct. The East more physical style was counter intuitive to Kobe’s more strictly finesse type game. He claimed he liked physicality and he was good at dishing it but wasn’t exactly great at withstanding it. If you’re being honest. And it is one of the reason he struggled with those same elite defenses that say Wade torched.

[StrongLurk]

Lmao, the Cavs were already up 3 with under 20 seconds left and he was cutting to the hoop for a feed. That's not quite the same as running off to the corner when the game was tied.

You're here arguing that Lebron is one of the most clutch players ever, or at least more clutch than Kobe, yet in the most high stakes possession of his entire career... he wanted no part of it.

Kobe is demanding the ball in that situation.

Bro that was literally one SINGLE play. Bron has the ball ALL THE TIME in the clutch. He's arguably the best game seven player EVER.

Kobe didn't get the ball in the clutch OR passed the ball in the clutch plenty of times. What are you even talking about :roll:

The facts show Lebron as one of the best clutch playoff performer ever. They are literal facts. You are like the other guy talking bullshit hater narratives.

[1987_Lakers]

Late 80s Pistons
Early 90s Knicks
Early 90s Bulls
Late 90s Heat
Late 90s Sonics
Late 90s Bulls
Early 00s Spurs
Mid 00s Pistons
Mid 00s Spurs
Late 00s Celtics
Late 00s Lakers

Are the best team defenses ever that I’ve seen.


True. But what he says is also correct. The East more physical style was counter intuitive to Kobe’s more strictly finesse type game. He claimed he liked physicality and he was good at dishing it but wasn’t exactly great at withstanding it. If you’re being honest. And it is one of the reason he struggled with those same elite defenses that say Wade torched.

This is how I know you are clueless. lol at calling the late 00's Lakers one of the best defenses you have ever seen. :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

This is how I know you are clueless. lol at calling the late 00's Lakers one of the best defenses you have ever seen. :oldlol:

That '09 team was great defensively in the POs.

[warriorfan]

This is how I know you are clueless. lol at calling the late 00's Lakers one of the best defenses you have ever seen. :oldlol:

For sure dude. That team was trash. Kobe had to do some heavy lifting.

[1987_Lakers]

That '09 team was great defensively in the POs.

Orlando was a better team defensively that season.

[Baller234]

Bro that was literally one SINGLE play. Bron has the ball ALL THE TIME in the clutch. He's arguably the best game seven player EVER.

Kobe didn't get the ball in the clutch OR passed the ball in the clutch plenty of times. What are you even talking about :roll:

The facts show Lebron as one of the best clutch playoff performer ever. They are literal facts. You are like the other guy talking bullshit hater narratives.

You can argue that Bron is clutch until you're blue in the face, and sure he's had his moments, but don't try and think you're fooling anybody by saying he was more clutch than Bean.

It's not a matter of passing the ball. There's nothing wrong with passing the ball for a game winning shot if it's truly the best option available. The problem is that when the game was tied and his team absolutely needed a bucket, Lebron was okay with taking himself out of the play. He put his team's destiny and his own destiny in another player's hands. Either because he didn't want the responsibility or because he truly felt that Kyrie was more equipped to get the job done.

Those aren't the characteristics of an all time alpha leader or an all time clutch performer. Not when you're comparing him to the likes of Jordan and Kobe. We all know that Kobe is demanding the ball in that situation.

[StrongLurk]

You can argue that Bron is clutch until you're blue in the face, and sure he's had his moments, but don't try and think you're fooling anybody by saying he was more clutch than Bean.

It's not a matter of passing the ball. There's nothing wrong with passing the ball for a game winning shot if it's truly the best option available. The problem is that when the game was tied and his team absolutely needed a bucket, Lebron was okay with taking himself out of the play. He put his team's destiny and his own destiny in another player's hands. Either because he didn't want the responsibility or because he truly felt that Kyrie was more equipped to get the job done.

Those aren't the characteristics of an all time alpha leader or an all time clutch performer. Not when you're comparing him to the likes of Jordan and Kobe. We all know that Kobe is demanding the ball in that situation.

Again, you are literally pointing to ONE SINGLE PLAY. You can 100% find tape of Kobe and MJ doing the exact same thing.

I had posted this in a post you responded to, but in game 7 of the 2013 finals, Bron hit the DAGGER jumper over Kawhi, then came down and stole the ball the next play, then got fouled and made two free throws.

Bron has already been "alpha" plenty of times in the finals. Bron is a far superior game 7 player than Kobe. Bron is a superior FINALS player than Kobe. You are just a moron.

[tpols]

Again, you are literally pointing to ONE SINGLE PLAY. You can 100% find tape of Kobe and MJ doing the exact same thing.

I had posted this in a post you responded to, but in game 7 of the 2013 finals, Bron hit the DAGGER jumper over Kawhi, then came down and stole the ball the next play, then got fouled and made two free throws.

Bron has already been "alpha" plenty of times in the finals. Bron is a far superior game 7 player than Kobe. Bron is a superior FINALS player than Kobe. You are just a moron.

:oldlol:

Stop playing boo boo.

Ray Allen was the clutch hero of 2013 by a thousand fold and everybody knows it.

He literally saved their entire season in the most spectacular clutch way possible off a Lebron crunchtime brick.

[StrongLurk]

:oldlol:

Stop playing boo boo.

Ray Allen was the clutch hero of 2013 by a thousand fold and everybody knows it. He literally saved their entire season in the most spectacular clutch way possible.

Ray saved the series no doubt. That doesn't meant Lebron wasn't clutch as hell in game 7 and had one of the best game 7's of all time. Both are true.

Game 7 box score:
Lebron - 37/12/4 with 2 steals on 69.8 TS%, 20.6 BPM, 32.5 game score
Ray Allen - 0/4/4, and he had a NEGATIVE BPM (-11.4) and game score (-2.6)

[tpols]

Nobody said Ray was great throughout the series. The argument was clutch and he made one of if not the most clutch shots in NBA history that straight up broke the Spurs back. Lebron front running afterwards wasn't clutch lol. Everybody knows he's good at that.

Before Rays shot he was having a bad series overall for his standard. After Rays shot he went off because it was obvious and in the air that San Antonio was completely deflated after blowing what should have been a sure win up 5 with like 25 seconds left in the game.

[Baller234]

Again, you are literally pointing to ONE SINGLE PLAY. You can 100% find tape of Kobe and MJ doing the exact same thing.

I had posted this in a post you responded to, but in game 7 of the 2013 finals, Bron hit the DAGGER jumper over Kawhi, then came down and stole the ball the next play, then got fouled and made two free throws.

Bron has already been "alpha" plenty of times in the finals. Bron is a far superior game 7 player than Kobe. Bron is a superior FINALS player than Kobe. You are just a moron.

I challenge you go to find it.

Go find me a moment where Jordan and/or Kobe take a total hands off approach and defer to a teammate when they are either down or tied with one minute left to go in an elimination game.

If you can't find something matching those exact specifications, post the closest thing you can find.

[ShawkFactory]

Nobody said Ray was great throughout the series. The argument was clutch and he made one of if not the most clutch shots in NBA history that straight up broke the Spurs back. Lebron front running afterwards wasn't clutch lol. Everybody knows he's good at that.

Before Rays shot he was having a bad series overall for his standard. After Rays shot he went off because it was obvious and in the air that San Antonio was completely deflated after blowing what should have been a sure win up 5 with like 25 seconds left in the game.

It was a game 7..

Only on ISH and only when Lebron is involved will a spectacular game 7 finals performance be thrown aside as "frontrunning" :lol

[StrongLurk]

Nobody said Ray was great throughout the series. The argument was clutch and he made one of if not the most clutch shots in NBA history that straight up broke the Spurs back. Lebron front running afterwards wasn't clutch lol. Everybody knows he's good at that.

Before Rays shot he was having a bad series overall for his standard. After Rays shot he went off because it was obvious and in the air that San Antonio was completely deflated after blowing what should have been a sure win up 5 with like 25 seconds left in the game.

Bron led the entire charge in the fourth quarter with sixteen points and he DID hit A big three before Ray's three. To act like Bron had nothing to do with that win is dumb. The fourth quarter is "winning time". By the way, that game still went to OVERTIME. And in overtime, Lebron made the last Heat bucket to put them up 101 to 100. Ray ended up making two free throws with one second left to put the Heat up by three. So yeah, once again, Lebron was clearly impacting the game at the end.

And you already know his clutchness in game seven of that series.